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Title: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 18:34:10, 03/08/19
Sorry for making another which jacket shall I get thread but I don't know how to research this. I'm days away from fitting in some XXL coats if the tape measure is to be believed.

What's the most breathable, least hot waterproof jacket I can get? Now I'm back out there I want to do all weathers walking and stay out there but my current jacket would make this a hot, sweaty and uncomfortable experience. I don't mind the kind of hot and sweaty you get when exposed to air but I detest it wrapped up in a my current waterproof it's so uncomfortable.

Please save me from being a fair weather walker!

I looked at the Mountain Equipment Lhoste Richard favours but suspect this might be hot?

Cost is semi-important. I can't really afford a Lhoste but I sort of could. Comfort matters more in this case.

Maybe I should nit off the Gore-Tex and go for a gunwharfman solution?
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Owen on 18:56:51, 03/08/19
Very hard to answer that one, the way I look at it is that there's a sliding scale from breathable and a bit waterproof on one hand. mainly the kind of thing fell runners wear. To very waterproof and a bit breathable on the other. These would be the sort of jackets winter mountaineers would wear. Things like breathability and thickness of the material would effect how hot a jacket feels. But, so will other things such as how hard your working and how much insulation you have. Not to exclude the ambient temperature and humidity. On top of that, what is comfortable to one person is unbearably clammy to someone else. So, there's no real answer to your question, sorry.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 19:02:58, 03/08/19
You've actually pretty much answered my question I think - I should probably be looking at the kind of thing fell runners wear.

Although I'll edit this because I don't mind getting wet anywhere near as much as getting hot - clammy wouldn't bother me so much though I question the point if you're going to be wet sweat is only preferable to rain for me below about 7 degrees C in moderate wind.

And I'll edit it again as I'm not built like a fell runner so they might not fit...
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: archaeoroutes on 19:19:45, 03/08/19
Following your thinking, perhaps look at some of the 2.5 layer stuff now available. It is lighter, cooler and more breathable but sacrifices some waterproofness and durability.

Inov-8 does good stuff for a relatively low price point if you are going down the fellrunning kit route - I can certainly attest to them coping with running level sweat in modest rain but haven't yet tested in full mountain downpour and wind.

However, there is now walking kit being made by the usual companies to the 2.5 layer specification that is pretty decent. I've tested the ME Zeno, for instance. It goes up to 48" chest, 38" waist.
Should stand up to most summer conditions. It won't be as rugged or bombproof as a new Goretex XCR or Pro jacket, but you've kind of ruled them out already.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 19:32:10, 03/08/19
Thanks archaeoroutes. I was just looking into the Inov-8 Stormshell 150 but I'll have to lose a bit more weight to fit into that as their largest size is XL. This could take a month or two, I'd favour something in XXL. I'm not sure how to conduct a search for 2.5 layer jackets, but I could try asking shops.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: archaeoroutes on 19:44:37, 03/08/19
ME Zeno, Rab Downpour and MH Exposure 2 go to XL.
Interestingly, MH size chart lists up to XXXL but I don't know what they do in that size.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: richardh1905 on 19:45:59, 03/08/19

I'm not going to bang on about how wonderful the Lhotse is yet again - but I will emphasise that I too 'run hot', and that I have even worn the Lhotse whilst running.


...and good to see you active on the forum again Rob. :)
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: archaeoroutes on 20:01:28, 03/08/19
I'm not going to bang on about how wonderful the Lhotse is yet again
It IS a good jacket. Of the Mountain Equipment jackets I've used I preferred the Kongur MRT, but the Lhotse came up well. Definitely still in the full mountain jacket category, though, and to me as sweaty as most middle-range Goretex.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 20:18:26, 03/08/19
Thanks archaeoroutes I will look into these too.

Thanks for the welcome back Richard. I got sucked into a world where all I did was diet, exercise, read about nutrition and talk about dieting. I missed walking and the forum and am pleased both appear to be making a comeback in my life. It was especially sad as I began my weight loss journey for the sake of walking!
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: gunwharfman on 10:41:40, 04/08/19
The problem for me with this subject is to buy the best, easiest and cheapest method to stay dry. As I've experienced rain over the past 10 years or so, it can range from heavy downpours to fine drizzle, long or short in duration and is often intermittent, with or without different types of wind. My experience is that rain periods, light, heavy, with wind or not, tend to be far less in duration than dry periods.

I use one of two options, the first is to wear my b*m length, single skin full-zip jacket, (a Marmot Precip, about £60 brand new I think?) a rain skirt, and my gaiters and the second option is to use my long length, single skin full-zip coat, (made by Champion, £15) and gaiters. The gaiters are essential wear in both instances. The long coat works best on undulating landscapes, the short jacket and rain skirt tends to work better in the mountains. The difference tends to be about stride length, on undulating hikes, my stride length is more or less the same, in mountains getting across rocky landscapes often involves longer strides when clambering over rocks and other obstacles.

With both jackets, I don't really worry about being hot, when there's a lull in the weather I just unzip the jacket or coat and let the circulating air cool and dry me off. Obviously given an ideal, I don't want to get hot in the first place, but in my experience, a waterproof and cool jacket does not really exist, no matter what the adverts say!



Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 11:44:03, 04/08/19
Thanks gwm, you're probably righy there's no waterproof and cool jacket but I kinda cook in my current one, it's not painful but very uncomfortable to the point I take it off in the rain sometimes, it has pit zips which is an improvement on my last jacket but it's far away from pleasurable.

I think I must run extremely hot, I don't get cold when it's not wet without a coat when it's snowing sometimes. Strangely, I'm also more comfortable than most on a hot day outside. People complain about the heat and I don't know what the problem is.

But wrap me in a water logged waterproof that's no longer breathing and within seconds I start to overheat.

I thought about doing some exercise outside a shop that sells coats so I'm warm then trying on a few but my jacket performs OK until it gets wet.

Richard intrigues me by saying the Lhoste doesn't cook you when wet, yet I wonder about archaeoroutes' recommending the ME Zeno and it's 2.5 layer...

The Marmot Precip is well regarded and also 2.5 layer, I'll have to consider that too.

This is going to be a tough one I think without taking the jackets for a test drive.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: archaeoroutes on 13:21:42, 04/08/19
As with all kit recommendations, we can only say what does and doesn't work for us. You have to test and try for yourself.


I'm lucky in that manufacturers give me stuff to trash in the hills and I keep them if I like them. I also get big discounts from retailers and manufacturers and can claim some things through work, so that helps me have a wider experience of kit.
Most people have to try in the shop and hope it translates to the hill. However, do see what you can do through warranties and trades descriptions if something is totally useless or has obvious fault once you've used it.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 14:16:47, 04/08/19
Deleted post as I somehow missed something (or it was an edit).
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 15:42:56, 04/08/19
Weird that the Zeno has a waist size, most jackets just have a chest size. I probably won't be a 38 waist until next year but I'm very nearly a 48 chest/belly (when you're fat you go by the chest size being your belly size although there's no longer much difference between the two). Are you sure the waist size wasn't just for their trousers on the size guide or is it something about the fit?
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 16:23:37, 04/08/19
Well I hope the waist size was for trousers as I've ordered the Zeno! A lot cheaper than the Lhotse and I'll probably be too small for it within 6 months. If it really needs a 38" waist I'll have to send it back.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: BuzyG on 23:35:37, 04/08/19
Your skin is waterproof. Leave the jacket at home.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: ninthace on 00:46:50, 05/08/19
Your skin is waterproof. Leave the jacket at home.
Mine isn’t.  It has been leaking a lot in this weather.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 03:50:49, 05/08/19
Your skin is waterproof. Leave the jacket at home.

Hah. Be just my luck it turns cold and windy if I do that. Actually looks like it's going to be windy for my next excursion. Your marathon training run is impressive, while I desire to be fit not sure I need to be that fit!
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Owen on 12:30:36, 05/08/19
What are you planning on wearing under your waterproof?


This time of year I'll generally take off a layer if I can if I need to put my jacket on. Often all you need is a thin baselayer.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 13:31:46, 05/08/19
What are you planning on wearing under your waterproof?


This time of year I'll generally take off a layer if I can if I need to put my jacket on. Often all you need is a thin baselayer.

Just a polyester sports t-shirt, it's all I generally wear, rarely does anything warmer come out. When I did Lord's Seat and Balf it even snowed a little and I didn't get my fleece out. This was up near the summits where it was also quite windy...

I tried a XXL jacket on in the shop today and it fits!
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Dyffryn Ardudwy on 18:59:35, 06/08/19
Do a web search for clothing made from Double Layered Ventile.
If you want the very best, fully natural, fully waterproof clothing, then Double layered Ventile is the way to go.

Unfortunately it not cheap, but its very long lasting, and in its double layered form, is almost bulletproof when keeping you dry.

As Ventile is the top 10% of the finest Egyptian Cotton, its very breathable, and when any moisture comes into contact with the cotton, its weave is so fine, that water molucues cannot pass through, yet it will allow sweat perspiration through.

Its only downside, is that its very expensive to manufacture, and when the fabric gets wet, it does increase its weight considerably, but there are few fabrics that come anywhere near it for keeping the elements at bay, and that's why its still the choice of Polar expeditions.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 19:07:46, 06/08/19
Cheers DA that's good to know for my next jacket, already bought one for now but in six months time I'll probably need another.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: ninthace on 19:36:50, 06/08/19
DA - I have no experience of Ventile.  I would be interested in your response to this article http://welldresseddad.com/2017/05/20/ventile-ugly-facts-they-dont-tell-you/ (http://welldresseddad.com/2017/05/20/ventile-ugly-facts-they-dont-tell-you/)
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Owen on 20:36:19, 06/08/19
I remember Ventile from way back in the mists of time, it went out of fashion for very good reasons. It was heavy, it was hot, it was expensive, it soaked up water like a sponge and if the temperature then dropped it froze and was like a suit of armour. If the temperature was consistently so low that all moisture in the air had frozen and settle on the ground it was great, which is why it was used in Polar regions. These days no one not even the Antarctic Survey use it, there is far better on the market. A firm called Snowsled, they make sleds, used to sell Ventile Jackets for the wannabe posers but I think even they have stopped selling them.


P.S. Snowsled went bust, they were taken over by Aguille rucksacks up in the lakes. 
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: jimbob on 21:09:05, 06/08/19
when any moisture comes into contact with the cotton, its weave is so fine, that water molucues cannot pass through, yet it will allow sweat perspiration through

Well that  is 100% contradictory. Sweat molecules are actually water plus 1%trace elements.  The H2O  in sweat will find it just as easy as rain water to get through any gaps as it is the same size going out as coming in. The trace elements will be left behind, oh you've noticed sweat stains have you? Well thats them trace elements. H2O is almost the smallest molecule there is, it is much smaller than the oxygen molecules you breath(O2).

Also cotton is now recognised as not being very "green" given the enormous quantities of fresh water needed to grow the crop.  A quick Google on the effects of growing cotton on on the Aral sea will give you some idea. Fresh water is a tiny proportion of water on our planet and is in extremly short supply in cotton growing areas.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: richardh1905 on 21:13:17, 06/08/19
Think that I'll stick to Gore Tex thank you very much.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 21:21:17, 06/08/19
I'm glad I had you guys to discuss the Ventile I might actually have considered it (though I suspect my next jacket is going to be either the Lhotse or something archaeoroutes recommends).
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: ninthace on 22:38:27, 06/08/19
Well that  is 100% contradictory. Sweat molecules are actually water plus 1%trace elements.  The H2O  in sweat will find it just as easy as rain water to get through any gaps as it is the same size going out as coming in. The trace elements will be left behind, oh you've noticed sweat stains have you? Well thats them trace elements. H2O is almost the smallest molecule there is, it is much smaller than the oxygen molecules you breath(O2).
Not quite true.  Water molecules bond together in transitory structures depending on temperature (look up hydrogen bonding to find out more).  Water is at its densest at 4C.  Below that water starts to form organised structures linking many molecules together until it forms ice.  Water at room temperature is not actually H2O but rather somwhere around H32O16, give or take a few, IIRC. Pure steam is H2O.  Sweat coming through your clothing will be water vapour so the water "molecules" will be much smaller than the "molecules" in the liquid water on the outside of the fabric.  In theory, they could pass outwards whereas liquid may not be able to pass inwards because of surface tension - that is how goretex is supposed to work.
In reality, in time, I imagine that the fabric will cool (latent heat of evaporation) to the point the water vapour will condense on the inside and the fabric will stop working as advertised.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: BuzyG on 23:39:00, 06/08/19
Think that I'll stick to Gore Tex thank you very much.
I am with you Richard.  O0
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: jimbob on 00:22:56, 07/08/19
Ninthace, believe me I understand your posting. I was being too simplistic, clearly.  My point is that it would be next to impossible to weave cotton in such a way as to create a texture so small that any form of water molecule could be blocked one way but not the other which is what DA stated.
 
As you know Goretex is a stretched membrane and is not want a weaved natural material. Clearly you understand the chemistry involved in that process. It is not weaving as is involved in cotton cloth.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: ninthace on 07:42:39, 07/08/19
That’s true.  My point was that the water vapour “molecules” on the inside will be much smaller than liquid “molecules” on the outside so in theory it can act as a directional filter if the gaps are the right size. Thus vapour may be able to pass through but droplets would not.  There will be more vapour inside than outside so the net flow will be outward.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: pauldawes on 11:44:46, 07/08/19
I remember Ventile from way back in the mists of time, it went out of fashion for very good reasons. It was heavy, it was hot, it was expensive, it soaked up water like a sponge and if the temperature then dropped it froze and was like a suit of armour. If the temperature was consistently so low that all moisture in the air had frozen and settle on the ground it was great, which is why it was used in Polar regions. These days no one not even the Antarctic Survey use it, there is far better on the market. A firm called Snowsled, they make sleds, used to sell Ventile Jackets for the wannabe posers but I think even they have stopped selling them.


P.S. Snowsled went bust, they were taken over by Aguille rucksacks up in the lakes.

I've got a single Ventile (Keela) jacket.

I used it a lot when I used to go "bog trotting" (that's a long time ago). For that short of long day walk it had advantages...it had so many large pockets, that I didn't need to bother with a rucksack..

And it was bombproof...it's still in wardrobe in excellent condition.

Your one comment that surprises me a bit is that "it was hot"...I don't "walk hot" so maybe this is a problem I wouldn't particularly notice...but I actually tended to use warmer mid layers and base layers when using this jacket, than any other I've owned.

Your other comments ( heavy, expensive, suit of armour) I agree with. I often used to wonder if single Ventile was this heavy, what double Ventile would be like...
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: zero on 18:22:06, 08/08/19
eVent and Neoshell (hard to find, not 'ultra lightweight') but they breathe so much more than Gore Tex anything! Personally I can't walk fast in Gore Tex (let alone run) except in winter when I find it's a better 'insulating' layer than the slightly air permeable eVent and Neoshell. In humid or warm conditions, anything is going to struggle to breathe. Or maybe a Rab Kinetic Plus which is more 'softshell' than 'harshell'? Alpkit has a proprietary fabric which gets some good reviews.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Dyffryn Ardudwy on 21:00:02, 08/08/19
Dear Ninthace

Thats certainly an interesting article on the uses of Egyptian Cotton.
Its a new one on me, requiring any water repellant DWR coating on Ventile cotton, simply because of its very high quality, you want to allow the cotton to breathe naturally, and applying any water repellency coatings on a natural cotton, is not needed.

Ventile is so expensive, simply because its amongst the finest cotton available, being composed of the top 10% of the Egyptian Cotton crop.

The weave of the cotton is so fine, that in its double layered form, its amongst the most waterproof material on the market.

The cotton does get heavy when saturated with water, but once the rain stops, it dries out quite quickly, and being cotton, it will last years of continued use.

Ventile was first used for Emerson suits for pilots, who may have had to bale out into the cold sea.

I am also surprised that Ventile appears to be making a come back, as its very expensive to manufacture into outdoor clothing.

Its always been there in the background, being the chosen fabric for very harsh Polar expeditions, when cost of clothing is secondary to an explorers safety.

Most outdoor walkers probably have not heard of Ventile, and even if they did, would be put off by the cost of buying it, especially in its two layered form.

Put it this way, most avid walkers spending well over £300 on a waterproof would go with one of the recognised materials, than a jacket made just of cotton.

A lot would also be put off having a jacket that almost doubles in weight when its wet, but the beauty of the material, is that even when soaking wet, it remains fully breathable, and virtually totally waterproof.

Remember, when Ventile is soaking wet, the cotton weave swells up, stopping just about every water molecule passing through.

Sweat molecules are far smaller, and the cotton weave still allows them to move through the soaked cotton.

Its a great natural material, but its costly, and only for the serious outdoors type, such as a Highland ranger out someone who works  outdoors for their living.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Owen on 21:46:37, 08/08/19
What a load of male bovine excrement.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: jimbob on 21:53:42, 08/08/19
Dear DA
My quick research showed that Ventile was never actually used as Airforce Immersion suits by any of the Allied forces.

Most of your other assertions ( repeated from your original post) also do not stand up to minimal scrutiny.

Seems they are OK in a shower but stupendously heavy and wet through easily in serious rain, fog and heavy mist.


Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: archaeoroutes on 23:14:14, 08/08/19
Ventile does have its uses. Mostly as a more down-to-earth alternative to a wax jacket or more resistant to the elements boiler suit. I've had many, many different cotton jackets and smocks in mixed shades of green and they have mostly worked OK at protecting me from the elements but had the common success of not being easily torn. The arctic windproof smock was great - not Ventile but a similar cotton twill.

Keela is a reasonable outdoor brand and they stock several ventile garments, all slanted to the hunting and forest-working end of the market. Indeed everything I've seen since the 1970s orange kit is aimed at the outdoor workman.

Polar use was mentioned, and there is doesn't have the problems of rain. In my experience polar researchers (BAS for instance) nowadays use Paramo kit in its place. They do have overalls in Ventile and similar fabrics (with Thinsulate linings and DWR coating) however.

In summary, if you need reasonable protection from the elements and are doing work that will be rough on your clothes, then Ventile is a good option. If you want to go for a walk in Britain's mountains, then there are eminently more suitable fabrics available.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: jimbob on 23:43:16, 08/08/19

In summary, if you need reasonable protection from the elements and are doing work that will be rough on your clothes, then Ventile is a good option. If you want to go for a walk in Britain's mountains, then there are eminently more suitable fabrics available.
O0 O0 Though weight won't be a problem for a person who carries two Thomennn Altimeters and a handheld weather station around with them.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Dyffryn Ardudwy on 11:34:23, 09/08/19
Jimbob and Owen, why not visit the main Ventile website, and then you may learn something about the history of the fabric.


Ive no idea where you have got your facts from, clearly not from the main website.

When i last read up about the stuff, it was manufactured and woven here in the Uk, but sadly the process has now been moved to Switzerland, but for some reason they have decided to apply a water repellant fluid into the process, that certainly was not the case some years ago.
Natural Cotton is meant to breath, and the very nature of the very dense weave of the cotton, does not really require any water repellant properties for it to work.

Water repellant sprays are required for the more modern manmade fabrics such as GoreTex, but i suppose a more modern target audience require a garment which repels water, and be seen to do so.








Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: jimbob on 13:03:57, 09/08/19
DA Again, just use Google you will find the truth about Ventile marketing.https://www.google.com/url?q=http://welldresseddad.com/2017/05/20/ventile-ugly-facts-they-dont-tell-you/&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjpnfDE4PXjAhWVmFwKHYI5Ai8QFjAAegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw2NuNbcQqL3f_ZauNKEYjhp (https://www.google.com/url?q=http://welldresseddad.com/2017/05/20/ventile-ugly-facts-they-dont-tell-you/&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjpnfDE4PXjAhWVmFwKHYI5Ai8QFjAAegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw2NuNbcQqL3f_ZauNKEYjhp)hEdited to add just one of many examples oof simple searches.

Again you must understand your use of the word "molecule" is a huge problem.

If you mean rain drops, which comprise trillions of molecules of H2O then say raindrops.

Chemical engineering can make waterproof yet breathable membrane, weaving looms cannot make a cloth to do the same.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Pitboot on 13:46:30, 09/08/19
DA - I have no experience of Ventile.  I would be interested in your response to this article http://welldresseddad.com/2017/05/20/ventile-ugly-facts-they-dont-tell-you/ (http://welldresseddad.com/2017/05/20/ventile-ugly-facts-they-dont-tell-you/)


God, what a whining clothes horse. I suspect if the fashion freak did research into ANY modern fabric he would come up with other negative conclusions.


I had a couple of ventile jackets, single layer and very comfortable as a shower and windproof shell, but heavy even with just one layer. It takes ages to dry, looks scruffy when it's worn in, it tears easily. Had some trousers too, quickly got rid of them, scraped my legs when wet, very uncomfortable. Probably great if it's cold and dry. Thank god for goretex and micro fleece.


ps, Not having a go at any forum members here, just the writer of the Ventile critique.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: gunwharfman on 13:53:59, 09/08/19
I'm on the Two Moors Way hike at the moment, and for the past two days have walked though some heavy and long showers. I took my £15 Champion long coat with me and its the first time that its experienced REAL rain. I've managed to walk through some rain before, but my Two Moors Way rain came down like 'stair rods!' I am pleased to say that I am perfectly dry and interestingly I now know that the hood is far better than my Marmot Precip hood. Not one trickle down my neck. On some of the steeper sections, I perspired a bit and built up some inside condensation but quickly dried when I opened the coat to let the wind flow freely around me.

I have to decide today, shall I walk on through the coming storm or cut my hike short? I need to decide in the next hour or two at the latest I think. Last nights rain was so heavy I thought that my tent might collapse. I was in the pub and was warned about possible local flooding but thankfully that didn't happen. My tent stuck with it as well, but I had a small leak at the foot end, just enough to make the end of my sleeping quilt wet.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Owen on 15:15:40, 09/08/19
Jimbob and Owen, why not visit the main Ventile website, and then you may learn something about the history of the fabric.


Ive no idea where you have got your facts from, clearly not from the main website.

Quote


I don't need websites to tell me how useless it is, I have firsthand knowledge. I was unfortunate enough to have been given a hand me down jacket when I was a teenager.
How you can think a fabric that's saturated is waterproof is mind boggling. About as waterproof as a paper bag. And, quick drying? It took days to dry. Altogether  the worst material ever used for mountain clothing.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: sussamb on 15:31:09, 09/08/19
O0 O0 Though weight won't be a problem for a person who carries two Thomennn Altimeters and a handheld weather station around with them.


Can't imagine who you're referring to  ;D
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: ninthace on 16:19:57, 09/08/19
I'm on the Two Moors Way hike at the moment, and for the past two days have walked though some heavy and long showers. I took my £15 Champion long coat with me and its the first time that its experienced REAL rain. I've managed to walk through some rain before, but my Two Moors Way rain came down like 'stair rods!' I am pleased to say that I am perfectly dry and interestingly I now know that the hood is far better than my Marmot Precip hood. Not one trickle down my neck. On some of the steeper sections, I perspired a bit and built up some inside condensation but quickly dried when I opened the coat to let the wind flow freely around me.

I have to decide today, shall I walk on through the coming storm or cut my hike short? I need to decide in the next hour or two at the latest I think. Last nights rain was so heavy I thought that my tent might collapse. I was in the pub and was warned about possible local flooding but thankfully that didn't happen. My tent stuck with it as well, but I had a small leak at the foot end, just enough to make the end of my sleeping quilt wet.
It is actually nowhere near as bad as the hype in the middle of Devon at present, blowy but muggy
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Dyffryn Ardudwy on 16:28:26, 09/08/19

The reason, Ventile cotton remains very breathable even when totally saturated in water, is that our sweat molecules are allowed to pass through the very tight weave of the cotton, but water molecules being larger, are restricted.

This is more evident when you have two layers of the cotton working together, the outer layer gets saturated in water, the cotton weave swells up, blocking most of the moisture, then the second inner layer, works as a further waterproofing membrane.

Just about every modern manmade waterproof fabric, becomes almost useless in keeping the wearer dry when soaking wet, Ventile Cotton works in a totally different way to possibly everything sold for the outdoors market, and being seen as very old technology, gets little or no publicity, resulting in virtually nobody knowing of its existence.


You have to be serious about spending possibly close on £400 on a jacket using very old, and in some peoples opinions, totally outdated technology.


Most walkers spending that amount of money, would go for one of the latest high tec modern fabrics, from the top names, and only those needing such clothing for their work would consider Ventile as their chosen material.

Ventile cotton, like all cottons, becomes very heavy when soaking wet, but because of its very fine weave and high quality manufacture, the outside moisture on the cotton does not effect its breathability.


I know that sounds crazy for someone used to a modern waterproof fabric such as GoreTex or similar competitor.

This was the main reason it was developed specifically for airmen during the war, who always risked having to bale out in open water which was usually very cold.

Its the double Layered Ventile that's the most effective at keeping the elements at bay,

Single layered garments are far less effective in heavy rain, allowing moisture through in very heavy rain.


Ventile has been around for such a long time, that it stands to reason most walkers have never heard about it or used it, as its hardly the most fashionable, to be seen in clothing, and with it being compareable in price with the very best clothing on offer, the majority would rather buy the very latest top end jacket, knowing they have a jacket with a proven track record.


Spending large amounts on money, on clothing few people have knowledge or experience in using, does not make sense.


It only makes sense if you know how good the cotton is in everyday use, and have the available cash to take the risk.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: ninthace on 17:13:11, 09/08/19
Modern Ventile, like many modern fabrics, appears to be treated with a hydrophobic chemical to make it water repellant.   If that is the case, the close weave element only comes into play when the coating is overwhelmed or wears off.  At this point it is suggested that the fibres become saturated and swell up to prevent the passage of water through the weave.  For this to happen the fibres, unlike modern fibres, must be hydophilic so that the fabric can actively become saturated.
Now in my camping days, we had flysheets that used to get saturated when it rained and the secret was to not let the outer touch the inner or the water came through.  If the outer layer of Ventile is saturated with water, surely the next layer, which is in contact with the outer will also become saturated in time. Since the second layer is also hydrophilic. At which point your base layer is now in contact with damp cloth.  It seems to me that double Ventile should work to slow the passage of water through the cloth but ultimately it will wet out unless you can maintain a sufficient temperature inside to keep drying out the inner layer.  I believe this was referred to in the production of WW2 immersion suits - they kept the wearer drier for longer, rather than dry, to give them time to be rescued or get in their dinghies.
Then there is the weight issue.  For the fabric to work it must be wet, that must come with a weight penalty.
Also, if the cotton is hydophilic, surely it will dry far more slowly than a hydrophobic fabric?
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: jimbob on 17:20:52, 09/08/19
Dead horses and flogging come to mind.  ::)

Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Mel on 17:32:05, 09/08/19
I thought I'd clicked on the "let's repeat myself sixteen times" topic  :D


Has the OP's question been answered yet?  :-\

If it hasn't, here's my 2p's worth.... There's no such thing as a waterproof and breathable jacket.  If it's waterproof, it's not breathable and if it's breathable, it's not waterproof.  If you "walk hot" then no jacket is going to be pleasant to wear whether it's raining or not.


There.  Said it.  Bring on the stonings, rotten eggs and tomatoes  ::)



Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: pdstsp on 17:38:44, 09/08/19
I believe with modern fabrics, stones can pass through form the inside of the jacket to the outside, while the Ventile's manufacture technique means that rotten eggs and tomatoes will "bead" on the outside of the jacket.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: wombat on 17:39:13, 09/08/19
any topic involving Rob or DA seems to go round in circles :-\
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 17:39:45, 09/08/19
I believe with modern fabrics, stones can pass through form the inside of the jacket to the outside, while the Ventile's manufacture technique means that rotten eggs and tomatoes will "bead" on the outside of the jacket.
;D ;D ;D
You beat me to it by a few seconds.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Mel on 17:44:26, 09/08/19

Having missen a little chuckle  :D   O0 
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: wobblyknees on 18:08:35, 09/08/19

Has the OP's question been answered yet?  :-\

If it hasn't, here's my 2p's worth.... There's no such thing as a waterproof and breathable jacket.  If it's waterproof, it's not breathable and if it's breathable, it's not waterproof.  If you "walk hot" then no jacket is going to be pleasant to wear whether it's raining or not.

I totally agree.
I'm a big fan of Event which I find far more breathable than Goretex. But of all the jackets I've worn I find Rohans Mountain Guide (name has changed since I bought it - Mountain Leader I think last time I looked) suits me best for hillwalking. Its not 100% waterproof but I find Rohans Barricade waterproof system offers me the best balance between breathability and waterproofness. I walk very hot.


Many years ago I bought a Country Innovations Ventile jacket on advice from a birding forum. I think it is double layered. It was expensive and is uncomfortably heavy. I could not hillwalk in it. I regard it as my worst ever outdoor gear purchase. I still use it occasionally for birdwatching.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: ninthace on 18:23:55, 09/08/19
Many years ago I bought a Country Innovations Ventile jacket on advice from a birding forum. I think it is double layered. It was expensive and is uncomfortably heavy. I could not hillwalk in it. I regard it as my worst ever outdoor gear purchase. I still use it occasionally for birdwatching.
  To wear or sit on?
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: jimbob on 18:47:19, 09/08/19
  To wear or sit on?
Not good for the hemorrhoids,  sitting on it.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 19:17:45, 09/08/19
Thanks for the input guys. After reading it all perhaps I should have got Event but I went with archaeoroutes suggestion days ago and ordered the Mountain Equipment Zeno. It arrived today, put it and my Berghaus Stormcloud overtrousers on to take for a test drive in the rain outside but by the time I was ready it was sunny and hot. I discovered walking in the overtrousers in the heat isn't as bad as I thought which gives me hope they will be of use in the wet.

Not connected to jackets at all - does anyone know how to get the overtrousers off without getting dirt (and possibly worse) from your boots all over the inside? I've discovered you can put your foot in a carrier bag to put them on, but I couldn't work out how to use the carrier bag effectively to remove them.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: ninthace on 19:31:39, 09/08/19
Both leg zips open from bottom to top as far as they will go, slide trousers down legs to floor or thereabouts, step out carefully. 
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 19:44:21, 09/08/19
Once again thanks ninthace. I'll give it a couple of practice runs with clean boots.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: ninthace on 19:52:31, 09/08/19
To put on - unpack, leg zips fully open, identify back and front, bunch up one leg to make to big hole leaving leg bit flapping, step through carefully (point toes), leave waist band low, repeat for other leg, pull trousers up, zip up legs, fasten poppers.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: archaeoroutes on 20:23:49, 09/08/19
I finally got to try my inov8 running jacket in a proper downpour today. Just gentle walking and standing around in a field. I was wearing a cotton t-shirt underneath, nothing technical.
It felt cold and I thought I was getting wet. At least it wasn't hot a sweaty despite the hot weather between the downpour and the next lesser shower.
On taking the jacket off indoors, there was a very clear line. Shirts and bottom of t-shirt were drenched, still dripping in fact. Above the line was totally dry! Now, the line was higher than the bottom edge of the jacket due to wicking upwards, but it was a clear difference.
I'm still only going to carry it in the mountains when there is no expectation of rain, but it gives me more confidence in it.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: lostme1 on 23:10:36, 09/08/19
To put on - unpack, leg zips fully open, identify back and front, bunch up one leg to make to big hole leaving leg bit flapping, step through carefully (point toes), leave waist band low, repeat for other leg, pull trousers up, zip up legs, fasten poppers.

And try not to fall over when standing on one leg.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: ninthace on 00:07:43, 10/08/19
And try not to fall over when standing on one leg.
O0
I try to find something or someone to lean on.  Trunks of trees and boulders are good  :) .
Perilously perching on your pack - no so good  :(
Two trekking poles set at angle to act as a shooting stick - more of a black art.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Mel on 08:59:17, 10/08/19
Not connected to jackets at all - does anyone know how to get the overtrousers off without getting dirt (and possibly worse) from your boots all over the inside? I've discovered you can put your foot in a carrier bag to put them on, but I couldn't work out how to use the carrier bag effectively to remove them.


I take mine off so they end up inside out.  To re- put them back on I just turn them back the right way again and use the carrier bag method.



Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Owen on 11:26:03, 10/08/19
My old trousers were mountain equipment rainfall pants, these had full length side zips. So were easy as you undid each zip wrapped them around and did the zips up. They were made of drilite and very light but a bit delicate. I now have some Firefox pants, these are goretex and a bit heavier. The side zips don't go all the way up your leg, they stop at the waistband. So you have to thread your foot through the waistband. Not so much of a problem with walking boots or shoes but try it with ski boots. A real nightmare.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 17:00:01, 10/08/19
Archaeoroutes, good call with the Mountain Equipment Zeno  O0 I've only got a couple of jackets to compare it to but it's a vast improvement. The Helly Hansen Loke jacket much like your new one feels cold and like you're getting wet, this one doesn't which is an improvement but the big difference - it was still breathing after a moderate downpour! I walked up a hill as fast as I could for 6 minutes while it was saturated and I could feel the airflow! I didn't overheat! Very happy with that.  O0
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: forgotmyoldpassword on 13:58:56, 15/08/19
Believe Goretex ShakeDry is the market leader in waterproof running jackets - and by definition designed for avoiding hot clammy conditions. 


The downside is they are expensive, fragile, and not rated for use beneath a rucksack - so do so at your own risk. 


I've found some of the Goretex/Event gear doesn't really work well in the UK climate as it's usually cold and humid - conditions which means the vapour doesn't actually move very much between the inner and outer layers, especially important since their vapour transfer rates are all done in lab conditions at 32C.  If you're able to pick up something hydrophillic - Paramo, Buffalo, anything Toray Dermizax - then you're actually getting a better product for the UK climate.  I tend to use a Bergans Slingby shell jacket and use the Buffalo when it's more windy and unlikely to get a soaking.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: El Principe on 23:22:08, 21/08/19
I have an Arcteryx Beta SL Hybrid (2019 model with Paclite Plus) for waking and Gore R7 Shakedry Trail for running
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: scottk on 21:08:19, 22/08/19
I have a Mountain Equipment Impellor which is very good but only suitable for 3 season use as it’s very lightweight. I also use it as a wind proof as it’s so light. Winter I use Paramo. Trousers are montane minimus which have been great but will need replaced soon (after 3 years).
If you buy lightweight, you need to accept the shorter lifespan. There are good prices on montane minimus jackets at the moment.
The impellor is gore tex active and unless something better comes along, I will be getting my next jacket in the same fabric.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Matt010791 on 16:36:08, 23/08/19
Has anyone got any experience with a Mountain Equipment Rupal jacket, I'm looking into buying one.
Title: Re: What's the least hot, most breathable waterproof jacket
Post by: Pitboot on 18:28:22, 23/08/19
Yes, I have one. It's a very tough jacket, you feel well protected. The fit is good for me, pockets good, hood excellent.
I was fortunate to get mine at a closing down sale for well below rrp. Only had one walk where it rained, no problems at all.