Walking Forum

Main Boards => General Walking Discussion => Topic started by: harry_keogh on 13:42:37, 31/08/19

Title: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
Post by: harry_keogh on 13:42:37, 31/08/19
Hi,
I'm just wondering if anyone who runs their own site has recently - say in the last week - received a threatening legal email from a rather well known guidebook writer, claiming copyright infringement. I'm wondering as they've told me they've issued this out to a number of walking related websites including my own. The specifics of these alleged infringements have not been given to me despite me asking for them, and they are saying that will send me the details only AFTER I've signed the agreement to take all infringements down. All of my posts are my own words apart from an occasional reworded fact thrown in from wikipedia. I don't own, nor have I ever read a single book from this particular author. I can only assume that he's claiming that the route itself is his intellectual property and that nobody is allowed to write about it. They have claimed that there are over 100 infringements on my site and yet after a bit of cross checking, I can only find a single post that corresponds with a walk from one of his guidebooks. There was no conversation about this before in, they just jumped straight in with the threatening emails - I'm starting to suspect scare tactics. If any other site owners have received such an email then please get in touch. My site is at hillexplorer.com.
Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
Post by: jimbob on 13:50:49, 31/08/19
Mmm, sounds like the scam run on YouTube where they search for uncopyrighted music, copyright it on their own name, then look for damages from the unsuspecting user.My son had an Italian company copyrighting music that he had composed and used. He won as he had absolute proof it was his work
So, in short write back and state that without absolute proof that his copyright has been misused then they should learn to whistle Dixie.
Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
Post by: harry_keogh on 13:55:07, 31/08/19
I don't think it's a scam as it has definitely come from the authors published email address. I'm just not entirely sure they have a leg to stand on... and I suspect they might know this which is why they're going in heavy with the letter and trying to scare, and wanting me to sign the agreement before sending any specifics. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one they've sent this letter to.
Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
Post by: jimbob on 14:00:24, 31/08/19
Like I say just write and ask for proof that you have breached anything.
It is way to expensive for them to take people to court. Costs almost certainly way exceed any possible reward.

You could counter, as my son did, and claim that they have deliberately plagiarised your work solely to profit from said copying.
Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
Post by: vghikers on 14:37:11, 31/08/19
I agree, sounds like a scam, especially with quoted number of over 100 'infringements'.
Actually, since no specifics were given, it might be an automated scam script. There are dedicated teams spidering the web for suitable targets and sending infringement notices like this, though it's usually associated with companies.

The fact that it came from the real author's email address doesn't prove anything, I've received quite a few spam/scam emails from sources I know whose devices and/or accounts were obviously blighted by some bad actor.

Quote
I can only assume that he's claiming that the route itself is his intellectual property and that nobody is allowed to write about it.
Authors aren't usually that dumb  :)

Quote
...wanting me to sign the agreement before sending any specifics...

but someone is clearly hoping you might be!  :)

Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
Post by: harry_keogh on 14:55:49, 31/08/19
I've exchanged a few emails with them since the original so it's not automated.

The author in question shares his name with the secretary of state of Alabama. Somebody I quite respected until this little email exchange.
Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
Post by: vghikers on 15:18:30, 31/08/19
Wow, that does astonish me. It's also a strange coincidence considering my latest backpack - I hadn't even thought about all those walk books for years.

I'll be following further developments on this one.
 
Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
Post by: happyhiker on 15:26:43, 31/08/19
I have received no such notices in respect of my own website and they would have little traction anyway as all my walk descriptions are my own, the photos are all mine (except for single figure numbers where I have the owners express permission and I give full credit). All my Memory Map and .gpx routes have been worked out by me on my PC.


I do research some general information related to the walks but I do not lift verbatim script.


If you know you are innocent, I would ignore the threats, especially in the absence of evidence.


Just Googled the name of the Secretary of State for Alabama - Merrill. Another Google leads to the obvious conclusion. I have never heard of these books. Maybe it's a case of trying to reduce/scare off opposition or just get some free publicity.
Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
Post by: ninthace on 15:41:50, 31/08/19
If you believe there has been no copyright infringement on your part and the overlap in content is minimal you could also claim Fair Use


From:  https://www.lawdepot.co.uk/law-library/faq/cease-and-desist-faq-united-kingdom/#question0_0 (https://www.lawdepot.co.uk/law-library/faq/cease-and-desist-faq-united-kingdom/#question0_0)


What are fair use and unfair use?


Fair use refers to the Fair use doctrine, which allows individuals or organizations to use limited amounts of a copyrighted work without first seeking permission from the rights holder(s). There is no science behind determining fair or unfair use. However, the following are guidelines:
  • The more directly the new work copies from the original, the more likely it is to be considered unfair use.
  • The more artistic or creative the original was, the more likely it is to be considered unfair use.
  • If the original was a factual account, the less likely it is to be considered unfair use.
  • The more the original is used in the new work, the more likely it is to be considered unfair use.
  • The less the original is changed in the new work, the more likely it is to be considered unfair use.
  • If the new work is intended for commercial purposes, as opposed to educational or nonprofit purposes, it is more likely to be considered unfair use.
  • If the new work could hurt the financial viability of the original, it is more likely to be considered unfair use.


  • Personally, I think they are trying it on.  If you look at the form letter for copyright infringement on the website I have linked to, they are suppose to give examples of what they consider to be unfair use.
  • Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: harry_keogh on 15:53:09, 31/08/19
    Well I know for sure that I've never copied any text from a guidebook that I've never owned or read!

    I think I'm going to go with one last email requesting the specifics. As far as I'm concerned, the emails I've sent showed that I've been fair and willing to take down anything that infringes copyright... but not until I've seen the details of the claim so I can investigate myself.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: richardh1905 on 15:59:57, 31/08/19
    I was just about to post that, harry. Any judge would take a very dim view of them withholding details of the alleged infringements after you have specifically asked for them.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: Mel on 16:22:22, 31/08/19
    Just email back saying you believe they are spamming you and you will not be responding personally to any more of their emails and than any further emails you receive from them will be passed on to your solicitor to deal with under the Harassment and Bullying Act.


    Do not sign any agreements. 

    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: WhitstableDave on 16:59:16, 31/08/19
    ... I can only assume that he's claiming that the route itself is his intellectual property and that nobody is allowed to write about it...

    The very idea that a route can be copyrighted seems to me to be ludicrous. Any accompanying description, points of interest, background information and so on is in a completely different category, but a route is just a route - and it can be discovered, followed, discussed and recommended by anyone.

    I run a forum that focuses on cruising, but as my interest in that activity waned I added more and more about other travel - and especially about walking. I've written up hundreds of my walks and I include maps (Google Earth tracks), but I've not been targetted!

    Thanks for mentioning your website, it looks great and I'll have a proper look around soon.  :)

    Thanks also for introducing Mr Merrill. I'd never heard of him and he seems to be quite a walker... if a rather slow one.  ;)
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 17:16:04, 31/08/19
    If you know you haven't infringed tell them you won't be signing anything until they show you the infringements. It's a bully boy tactic, there's no reason for them to not disclose the infringements to you except to get you to close the site.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: Hillhiker1 on 17:32:18, 31/08/19
    Maybe it's actually HIM in breach of YOUR copyright, and he's trying it on....
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: jimbob on 17:56:51, 31/08/19
    Maybe it's actually HIM in breach of YOUR copyright, and he's trying it on....
    O0 Exactly my point. They've been doing this with music for a good few years now.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: ninthace on 18:34:49, 31/08/19
    Harry, out of interest did the email come from the publisher or from the "Reverend" himself?  This may be useful  (the bold in the paragraph is mine), if they have not spelled it out and they keep it up, you may be entitled to a C&D of your own under the category of harassment:


    Consequences of ignoring a C&DIf the infringing party does not comply with the cease and desist letter, or if they publicise it by sharing it on social media or any other public forum, you can make a legal claim and take the individual or organisation to court.
    In cases of IP infringement or abuse, there are additional remedies that can be included in a cease and desist letter, such as allowing the infringing party to continue using the IP once a licensing fee is paid, for example. Importantly, the letter should be well-researched and carefully written by a qualified solicitor to convey the gravity of the request to the infringing party. Otherwise, there is the risk that it will be ignored and you will have to go to court to protect your IP right or to stop the offending behaviour, be it harassment or slander.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: barewirewalker on 18:47:29, 31/08/19
    You have my sympathy, having had unknown legal action pending over me is a heavy burden to bear. I suffered this big time on several fronts, maybe they were connected, I will never know. I my case I had really done work that was uniquely my own intellectual property and I had people blatantly copying my product. Around the same time a worthy bird protection group prosecuted me for infringement of wildlife protection law. Because my style of making cases for a popular product in pub decor, which I had invented, was being copied. There were those, who thought that they could cash in, by also making the displays that I was designing and manufacturing and at the same time report me to the protectionists, because I had triggered of work that appeared similar.

    Pick the bones out of that; my advice is go carefully but do not give in. There are many villains about, some that the majority will see as whiter than white. Eventually I won my way through the court processes, and followed up by going around my customers, who were buying the copies of my product off my competition, by telling them that all the new designs would be coming from my workshop. So if they want the dog and not the tail, they know where to place their orders, it worked :D


    Unfortunately the sad side is I suffered PTS, courtesy of a charity with a Royal proxy, withdrew from a more aggressive marketing strategies and the techniques I developed will probably die with me and not be passed onto other crafts people, who might be able to use them in new ventures.

    Back to walking; The only written routes that I would merit with unique intellectual content must be pre-1949, because all others are gleaned from the OS via the definitive map, so surely the only additional content is the actual prose that is written. Open access must surely be open source, anyone is free to see a route and say follow me.


    Beware of the 'holier that thou brigade'. They rarely believe in the good they are supposed to be doing, more out for the kudos they can pick up along the way.
     
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: harry_keogh on 20:05:22, 31/08/19
    The letter is from the board of trustees, the john merrill foundation.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: Mel on 20:23:26, 31/08/19
    ....The specifics of these alleged infringements have not been given to me despite me asking for them, and they are saying that will send me the details only AFTER I've signed the agreement to take all infringements down....


    Just had another thought re this ^^^^ ...


    If you did sign this agreement, not knowing what the alleged infringements are, then that basically gives them carte blanche to invent whatever infringements they like, or, (like jimbob is saying) stealing your writings and passing them off as their own and possibly profiting from it.  By which time, you will be legally bound to remove any/everything you've written and maybe even have to pay legal costs.


    It's a bit like handing out cash to a builder before he's built your conservatory....


    Would it be worth having a chat with the Citizens Advice Bureau maybe?

    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: Ridge on 20:47:25, 31/08/19
    Quote
    1 Fraud
    (1) A person is guilty of fraud if he is in breach of any of the sections listed in subsection (2) (which provide for different ways of committing the offence).
    (2) The sections are—
    (a) section 2 (fraud by false representation),
    (b) section 3 (fraud by failing to disclose information),
    (c) section 4 (fraud by abuse of position).


    Fraud doesn't have to be for financial gain.
    If they are making claims against you with no foundation in fact then I would say possibly they are guilty of 2a and, because they have the power to intimidate 2c.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: ninthace on 21:16:26, 31/08/19
    The letter is from the board of trustees, the john merrill foundation.
      Google suggests that the foundation is basically the publisher of JNM's books.   This is confirmed by the Companies House entry which gives its business as book publishing.  The foundation was set up in March 2004 by a Mr Perseval as Director. He then resigned and JNM took over as Director in Apr 2004.   The foundation appears to have one other member - Sally Ann Powers who is the Secretary.   The foundation was set up to preserve the writings, photographs and work of John N Merrril as a Charitable Foundation.


    Source https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/05066113 (https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/05066113)
    Contact details are here: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/05066113/officers (https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/05066113/officers)
    Filing History: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/05066113/filing-history (https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/05066113/filing-history)
    What they do, see pages 8 & 9 of the Incorporation document at the foot of this page https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/05066113/filing-history?page=2 (https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/05066113/filing-history?page=2)


    Similar info here: https://suite.endole.co.uk/insight/company/05066113-the-john-merrill-foundation (https://suite.endole.co.uk/insight/company/05066113-the-john-merrill-foundation)

    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: Ridge on 22:05:51, 31/08/19
    You could always phone him and ask why he has started this spurious campaign of harassment against you


    https://www.thejohnmerrillministry.co.uk/Contact-Us.html (https://www.thejohnmerrillministry.co.uk/Contact-Us.html)



    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: Mel on 22:13:31, 31/08/19
    Is that the same John Merrill?  :-\



    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 22:27:16, 31/08/19
    Is that the same John Merrill?  :-\
    It appears to be. The address is the same on both websites.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: ninthace on 22:29:41, 31/08/19
    Is that the same John Merrill?  :-\
      Into walking and writing books about walking.  Both Rev'd.  Could be a coincidence?
    Look at the picture at the bottom of the home page of the gentleman with a bike. https://www.thejohnmerrillministry.co.uk/default.html (https://www.thejohnmerrillministry.co.uk/default.html)
    compare with https://www.johnmerrillwalkguides.co.uk/ (https://www.johnmerrillwalkguides.co.uk/)
    Either it is one and the same or he needs to send out another Cease and Desist   :)
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: Mel on 22:40:53, 31/08/19
    Aye, I see that.  Just seems random.  One minute he's writing blogs and books about walking and the next minute he's a Reverend.  Surely a man of The Cloth wouldn't send aggressive emails to ultimately achieve financial gain  :-\   



    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: jimbob on 22:44:52, 31/08/19
      Surely a man of The Cloth wouldn't send aggressive emails to ultimately achieve financial gain  :-\
    :2funny: :2funny: :2funny:
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: ninthace on 22:56:18, 31/08/19
    On his website he says  he was ordained as a multi-faith Minister - he is a universal monk, honouring and embracing all faiths and none.  He is not a Rev'd  in the C of E sense

    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: Ridge on 22:58:25, 31/08/19
    He has many strings to is bow. From the Haringey Advertiser 14/12/2011


    Quote
    FLYMO TURBO wheeled gar¬ den - vac blows, collects, shreds, excellent condition, three months old. £45. 01992 762 776
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: harry_keogh on 12:05:05, 01/09/19
    After another email exchange it seems that they are claiming that ALL the peak district walks on my blog are blatantly copied from his walks - funny as, like I've said, I've never read his books. He has written and published over 8700 routes. Apparently nobody is allowed to write about any of these routes without first seeking permission. I've also found another person that has received the same threat - a very popular and respected site. I won't name them.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: BuzyG on 12:25:43, 01/09/19
    Sounds like he is trying it on.  You can't copyright a route.  Lotus cars once tried to copy right the wedge shape of the Lotus Esprit.  That one got laught out of court too.  If it where me I think I would simply shut down all corispondence with them.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: Mel on 12:58:00, 01/09/19
    I agree with BuzyG.  Unless/until they can provide hard evidence (copies of pages from your website and their website of this blatant copied content) then you have no further discussion with them.


    What does the other person who's received the C&D notice think?



    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: barewirewalker on 14:17:57, 01/09/19
    I've just looked at your blog. 2 peak district walks you have done with your 3 year old child charming introduction to the countryside for a youngster. Does the irreverent Merrill advocate in detail these two was as suitable for a 3yr old? One of the particulars I have noted in the past is walk authors being unable to recognise any reason to advocate a walk being tackled clockwise or counter clockwise. Here might be a particular analysis that could separate the tracks, because that would seem to be the only similarity as you say you have never read any of his books.


    Come to that has any guide writer claimed intellectual property on suggesting a road route to drive anywhere on our highway network. The same protection applies to a right of way, so it is arguable that by claiming to be sole arbiter to part of the right of way network he is blocking the route to others, who do not wish to use his site.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: ninthace on 14:21:23, 01/09/19
    This is pure BS


    1.  He says in his own site that he bases his routes on public rights of way.  These are published by the Ordnance Survey and are in the public domain.  Free to use by anyone constructing a route.  Walking routes present themselves obviously from the map - there is no way you can check it has not been published before.

    2.  If you go on to websites, such as the OS mapping site or ViewRanger, you will probably find copies of his routes there too- again public domain.

    3.  I suspect many of his routes will have been walked by others long before him - he cannot demonstrate that invented them, nor I suspect, looking at the subject matter, can he prove he was even the first to publish them.


    If you go on any walking website you will find duplicates, with or without variations of popular walks.  For example, if you go on the OS site, there are often duplicate traces, with or without minor variations, of popular walks.


    He can legitimately claim copyright for his narrative, his pictures and his sketch maps.  To claim copyright infringement he would have to demonstrate you lifted the routes from his books.  However, the truth is that you and he got your route information from a common source - the Ordnance Survey which predates both of you.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: harry_keogh on 14:32:19, 01/09/19
    Good points there nintheace... I may use those in my next email.
    The other site I mentioned have signed the agreement - I've told him that he still needs to challenge it. The agreement is to take down material that infringes copyright so they still need to prove that copyright for it to happen.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: ninthace on 14:35:01, 01/09/19
    Further thought:

    Have a look at Wikipedia on Copyright https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright).  In particular the definition of Copyright:

    Copyright is the exclusive right, given to the creator of a creative work, to reproduce the work, usually for a limited time. The creative work may be in a literary, artistic or musical form.

    But:

    Copyright is intended to protect the original expression of an idea in the form of a creative work, but not the idea itself  (my bold)

    Also in the section on Originality:

    Copyright law recognizes the right of an author based on whether the work actually is an original creation, rather than based on whether it is unique; two authors may own copyright on two substantially identical works, if it is determined that the duplication was coincidental, and neither was copied from the other.


    Point that out to him and tell him to go swivel
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: ninthace on 14:51:49, 01/09/19
    There's more:  From - https://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/uk_law_summary (https://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/uk_law_summary)


    The Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988, is the current UK copyright law. It gives the creators of literary, dramatic, musical and artistic works the right to control the ways in which their material may be used. The rights cover: Broadcast and public performance, copying, adapting, issuing, renting and lending copies to the public. In many cases, the creator will also have the right to be identified as the author and to object to distortions of his work.
    Copyright arises when an individual or organisation creates a work, and applies to a work if it is regarded as original, and exhibits a degree of labour, skill or judgement.
    Interpretation is related to the independent creation rather than the idea behind the creation. For example, your idea for a book would not itself be protected, but the actual content of a book you write would be. In other words, someone else is still entitled to write their own book around the same idea, provided they do not directly copy or adapt yours to do so.        (my bold)
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: Skip on 16:25:57, 01/09/19
    Harry,
    I have read this thread and have looked at the various links.

    I have no expertise in this area but, from what I have read here, they don't have a leg to stand on. So it seems the most appriate response is to politely tell him/them to eff off.

    I wonder whether it would help or hinder your case if we - as members of Walking Forum - emailed him/them with our views of their behaviour?

    BTW, I put the lawnmower advert's phone number into Google and found this:

    https://www.192.com › business › the-john-merrill-foundation › comp
    The John Merrill Foundation - Book Publisher in Waltham Cross EN8 ...
    01992 762 776 · Or Call 118 119. Calls cost £0.77 per call + £1.55 per minute with a minimum of a 1 minute call, plus your telephone company's access charge.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: tonyk on 17:14:04, 01/09/19
    Hi,
    I'm just wondering if anyone who runs their own site has recently - say in the last week - received a threatening legal email from a rather well known guidebook writer, claiming copyright infringement.
    A legal email? You mean a email unless it came from a legal firm.I used to send these to people who owed me money on a daily basis and they were very effective.In truth they had no basis in law and would probably have weakened my case if things went to court.Just have a exchange of emails with this author and go into minute detail of how you have infringed his copyright.Challenge everything he says.That should waste a few weeks of his time and eventually he will get bored and go onto the next person.Tip:I used to know John Merrill when he had his shop in Bakewell.Great walker but hardly the brain of Britain.If you do your homework properly you will run rings around him.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: Strider on 17:23:38, 01/09/19
    You could try contacting the Ramblers, they might be interested to know that someone is trying to copyright walking routes

    https://www.ramblers.org.uk/contact-us.aspx

    I'm inclined to agree with Ninthace's (congratulations on 4000 posts btw) summary:

    Quote
    This is pure BS
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: ninthace on 17:33:32, 01/09/19
    Tip:I used to know John Merrill when he had his shop in Bakewell.Great walker but hardly the brain of Britain.If you do your homework properly you will run rings around him.
      Looking at his website - would you get a badge and certificate?  Run enough and you can even have a cup.  Bargain badges and certificates at £6.00 a pop https://www.johnmerrillwalkguides.co.uk/BADGES---CERTIFICATES.html (https://www.johnmerrillwalkguides.co.uk/BADGES---CERTIFICATES.html).  Cups up to £40  https://www.johnmerrillwalkguides.co.uk/CHALLENGE-WALK-CUPS.html (https://www.johnmerrillwalkguides.co.uk/CHALLENGE-WALK-CUPS.html)
    Read this about his Peak District Walk:  "CIRCULAR WALKS ON KINDER AND BLEAKLOW - 20 really great walks on the moorlands. All the classic walks. Special offer price"  All the classic walks - is he claiming copyright for the classics Harry? Or "SHORT CIRCULAR WALKS IN THE PEAK DISTRICT - VOL 2 15 walks - 3 to 5 miles long in both the White and Dark Peak. John's classic book - over 95,000 copies sold!" - at £7.95 each.  Perhaps I should have posted this on the Bargains Thread?
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: Percy on 18:41:49, 01/09/19
      Looking at his website
    I did. It appears to have been written by a terrible writer.  :(
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: archaeoroutes on 19:02:02, 01/09/19
    "John is acknowledged as Britain's most experienced hiker and the world's greatest marathon walker... He is author of more than 470 walk guides - all devised, created and authored by him. He is regularly copied but never equalled. Britain's forgotten champion of walking." - https://www.johnmerrillwalkguides.co.uk/default.html 1/9/19
    I'm rather concerned by the day packs he's selling. Not really suitable!
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 19:16:58, 01/09/19
    I'm rather concerned by the day packs he's selling. Not really suitable!

    Would have done nicely just to carry my waterproofs in the mornings though, think I overpaid at £20 ish when I can get a bag for £6.50 even if it looks... well not to my tastes.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: tonyk on 19:17:31, 01/09/19
     Considering he has created 165 walks in the Peak District alone he must surely realise that it is inevitable that other people will use the same paths when creating routes? All he can do is trademark the name of the route he has created but he cannot claim ownership of the route as all the walks are on public rights of way.He has written another book called "Walking the Streets of London".Surely he won't be writing to other guide book authors claiming he owns the rights to the streets of London? His argument is bordering on absurd and should be ignored.
     
    Quote
    I'm rather concerned by the day packs he's selling. Not really suitable!

    Best range of specialist outdoor wear - shorts, T shirts & wind jackets - The Work Out Range, Primark.Winner of the 2018 JMF award.  :o

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLPF8oXFLC8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLPF8oXFLC8)
     
     
     
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: harry_keogh on 20:00:31, 01/09/19
    Well I've just drafted my final email to them - just need to get it checked over with a lawyer friend of a friend.
    Just wanted to check with ninthace... am I allowed to use your earlier points, or are they copyrighted? ;)
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: vghikers on 20:03:26, 01/09/19
    Steady on a minute!. All the arguments above are obviously correct, but it shouldn't be personal until we know differently. It may well be that John himself isn't behind all this, indeed he may not even be aware of it. It's usually the team behind the business side that resorts to these tactics.

    As I mentioned in my previous reply, my latest backpack last month was based on a little known route of his and I visited his website at the time. Interestingly, I've just looked at it again and, though I can't be certain, I could swear a bold paragraph has since been added to his guides page (https://www.johnmerrillwalkguides.co.uk/) stating:-

    Quote
    Please Note:
    This is the only official and licensed website regarding the walks & works of John Merrill.

    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: ninthace on 20:15:47, 01/09/19
    Harry, the only copyright is from the sources I linked to.  Everything else is top of my head. By the way, did you know the link to hillexplorer.com in your footer is being hijacked to https://social.mass-trespass.uk/main/all (https://social.mass-trespass.uk/main/all) ? Doesn’t happen all the time but I have seen it twice today. Affects your blog link too.


    Vghikers, according to companies house the Foundation only has two active officials and JNM is the Director.  The books are published in house by the Foundation. If he does not know he should, as Director.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: ninthace on 20:17:28, 01/09/19
    Duplicate post deleted
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: Mel on 20:52:24, 01/09/19
    VGhikers - I don't think anyone has confirmed who Harry has received the email/s from.  All I can see is a lot of folks on a forum speculating ;)



    Harry - good luck with your final email.... and don't sign any agreements!  It all does seem a bizarre box of tricks considering you don't appear to be attempting to sell anything or make money from your write ups so they can't even claim you are profiting from his work  :-\





    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: harry_keogh on 21:09:29, 01/09/19
    Harry, the only copyright is from the sources I linked to.  Everything else is top of my head. By the way, did you know the link to hillexplorer.com in your footer is being hijacked to https://social.mass-trespass.uk/main/all (https://social.mass-trespass.uk/main/all) ? Doesn’t happen all the time but I have seen it twice today. Affects your blog link too.
    Thanks for letting me know. Think it was caused by my signature pointing to http rather than https. The redirection obviously isn't working correctly - I'll have a look at that later when I have time.

    The other website is mine too - just a decentralized social network I've been experimenting with as I am trying to remove my personal life from the likes of google and facebook, and instead self-host everything. I currently have my own chat server, mail server, social network, blog, and cloud storage system complete with a cloud version of LibreOffice.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: Pitboot on 06:26:56, 02/09/19
    "John is acknowledged as Britain's most experienced hiker and the world's greatest marathon walker... He is author of more than 470 walk guides - all devised, created and authored by him. He is regularly copied but never equalled. Britain's forgotten champion of walking." - https://www.johnmerrillwalkguides.co.uk/default.html (https://www.johnmerrillwalkguides.co.uk/default.html) 1/9/19
    I'm rather concerned by the day packs he's selling. Not really suitable!


    As I have never heard of him before how can I forget him? So he's done a few walks, wow.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: archaeoroutes on 07:18:07, 02/09/19
    As I have never heard of him before how can I forget him? So he's done a few walks, wow.
    Indeed. That was their bold.
    I've never heard of him until now, either. I have no idea about his intentions or faculties. I do slightly wonder if he is not entirely with it and being manipulated/used by someone else to try to make money out of his work.


    I was more interested in the 'regularly copied' bit in the context of this thread. It sounds like they actually believe that they genuinely believe that have exclusive right to describe walks.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: archaeoroutes on 07:21:43, 02/09/19
    It all does seem a bizarre box of tricks considering you don't appear to be attempting to sell anything or make money from your write ups so they can't even claim you are profiting from his work
    Possibly, they see similar walks being available free on a website taking more custom away from them than other paid books do.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: harry_keogh on 08:58:05, 02/09/19
    The only walk on the site from a John Merrill guidebook is the Belvoir Witches Challenge walk. I originally credited the LDWA on my site as that's where I obtained the walk from. As it appears that all of John Merrills walks have now been removed from the LDWA website, I have now edited this post and credited John with the walk along with a link back to his site. As I haven't read the guidebook in question, the route is the only thing taken from the LDWA website - replotted by myself as GPX files on the LDWA website are only downloadable to members. In all honesty, I wouldn't mind too much if I ended up having to take the whole post down as it was a fairly dull walk :)
    I have also added an about page to my site at https://hillexplorer.com/about clarifying all my sources of information.

    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: vghikers on 09:21:03, 02/09/19
    Quote
    ...I have now edited this post and credited John with the walk along with a link back to his site. As I haven't read the guidebook in question, the route is the only thing taken from the LDWA website - replotted by myself as GPX files on the LDWA website are only downloadable to members.

    Exactly the same process here: I linked back to the JM site for my Salter's Way backpack, a perfectly fair credit for its source. I also made a couple of very minor modifcations on the walk and plotted it myself to GPX.

    Quote
    I have also added an about page to my site at https://hillexplorer.com/about clarifying all my sources of information.

    A wise addition. Also a general disclaimer is a good idea to mitigate future hassle, there is always some idiot who will claim that every word constitutes 'advice'.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: vghikers on 09:22:49, 02/09/19
    Quote
    In all honesty, I wouldn't mind too much if I ended up having to take the whole post down...

    Don't cave in!  :)
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: Mel on 10:28:13, 02/09/19
    Yes, don't cave in - as has been said above, they're trying it on using bully-boy tactics and it's all BS on their part  O0
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: tonyk on 11:10:20, 02/09/19
     I have to agree with the above two posters.Its always best to challenge bullies and call their bluff.He isn't anything special,just another bloke who has done a few walks and self published a lot of books.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: pauldawes on 16:24:24, 02/09/19
    Don't cave in!  :)


    The way Harry was first contacted was so disappointing that it must be incredibly hard to step back and try to come to an amicable solution that is reasonably fair all round.


    I wouldn’t see Harry completely removing route as “caving in”, rather an act of kindness, a generous gesture.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: Pitboot on 16:34:47, 02/09/19
    And don't forget all those fantastic badges and certificates! ::)
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: tonyk on 17:16:45, 02/09/19
    And don't forget all those fantastic badges and certificates! ::)
    (https://media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/MICKEY.jpg)
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: ninthace on 18:10:24, 02/09/19
    Do I get a Ceaseandesisticate?
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: harry_keogh on 14:53:46, 03/09/19
    Well, after further insistence that ALL of my Peak District routes are copied, and still no specifics - I'm going to stop with the correspondance. I hope that he does pass it to a solicitor, I might actually receive a coherent letter then. After being able to get some initial advice from a lawyer, a book publisher, an author, and the local council countryside access team, I'm feeling quite comfortable at the moment.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: tonyk on 17:02:17, 03/09/19
    Well, after further insistence that ALL of my Peak District routes are copied, and still no specifics - I'm going to stop with the correspondance.
    Seems to be a bit of a joker and wind up merchant.This is the only video he has published of his walks.Perhaps it has a hidden message.
     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98cTsXPsjKM
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: ninthace on 17:17:55, 03/09/19
    That would have been 10 mins I didn't get back.  (Insulting remark deleted out of respect for forum rules).
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: pdstsp on 18:01:13, 03/09/19
    I've been following this with interest - stick to your guns Harry - I love your blog! 
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: harry_keogh on 10:11:34, 04/09/19
    I wrote to the UK Copyright Service. They have replied with:
    "From your description, I would say that the blog posts, describing your
     own account of the walk and your own photos, would certainly be subject
     to copyright (i.e. you would be the copyright owner as the creator of
     those items).
     
     I do not think there would be anything to protect in the route itself;
     if you were to draw your own map, then naturally your map would be
     subject to copyright; but in your example only the overlaid route would
     be your own creation (and not likely to be unique)."
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: Pitboot on 10:23:38, 04/09/19
    That would have been 10 mins I didn't get back.  (Insulting remark deleted out of respect for forum rules).


    With the fast forward facility you can get the gist in about 15 seconds. Mind you it's still 15 seconds wasted.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: ninthace on 10:28:17, 04/09/19

    With the fast forward facility you can get the gist in about 15 seconds. Mind you it's still 15 seconds wasted.
    I thought the ending was the best bit, in that it ended.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: Andies on 10:34:04, 04/09/19
    I have also been following this thread with great interest and can no longer resist saying something, albeit I cannot reasonably say here what I really think as he might sue me  :D

    Like others, I have been walking most of my life and I had never heard of him.

    The links previously provided to the websites for his walking and ministry should IMO tell anyone exactly what this man is about. Spend a few minutes and come to your own conclusion.

    I am at a loss to understand how someone can find the time to walk an average of over 80 miles a week for the past 50 years, write hundreds of books, and conduct all his ministry work; aside from all the other things he does. A truly remarkable man.

    Who on earth buys all those badges, and what's this fascination with counting boots and socks  ::)

    Stand firm Harry.


    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: richardh1905 on 12:36:08, 04/09/19
    Don't give in to bullies, Harry - stand firm.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: pauldawes on 16:00:14, 04/09/19
    Don't give in to bullies, Harry - stand firm.


    There’s really no (sensible) alternative. The other guy’s position is so unreasonable, that I don’t see how any one could help him in this particular instance.


    The sad thing is that I have fond memories of the other guys’s books...I bought a reasonable number many years ago, when I first started walking parts of the Peak District.


    I think I can safely admit that. Unlike Harry I’m way too lazy to post thoughts on walking routes....
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: vghikers on 16:13:01, 04/09/19
    Quote
    The sad thing is that I have fond memories of the other guys’s books...I bought a reasonable number many years ago, when I first started walking parts of the Peak District.

    Same here, back in the 1990s, very basic and spartan books. He's an incredibly prolific walker and has an odd walking trait, it is said: he walks long days, even in a summer heatwave, without drinking any fluids at all, with no ill effects or performance deterioration.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: harry_keogh on 16:22:34, 04/09/19
    Well I'm off down to Leicestershire tomorrow to do a new walk that I've devised. I'm going to call it 'Grantham Canal and Belvoir Castle'. Any similarities to other routes are purely coincidental - after all, there are only so many ways to walk down Grantham Canal. If I ever get forced to take my current one down, it's going to be instantly replaced with this one.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: ninthace on 16:31:34, 04/09/19
    Don't forget the "Challenge" suffix!
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: harry_keogh on 16:35:26, 04/09/19
    Of course.

    As an afterthought... even if a route could be copyrighted, we're only talking about the visuals aren't we? After all, his maps tend to be hand drawn illustrations. So if I didn't display the map but instead simply offered a gps file for download - can that be comparible? A gpx file is, after all, simply a list of coordinates. It's something that many people use these days, and something that - so far as I know - he doesn't offer.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: ninthace on 16:45:45, 04/09/19
    GPS file - not the sort of thing you can get from a book!   Sketch maps are not comparable.  All his site offers are pictures of the front cover!
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: harry_keogh on 16:48:28, 04/09/19
    I noticed that - It's impossible to find out whether he's even done these routes before. Are we supposed to be psychic and know all of his 8700 routes? Maybe we should all be buying all 470 of his guidebooks before writing about a walk, just in case.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: vghikers on 16:49:36, 04/09/19
    You're overthinking it  :)
    Only his prose, pictures, map drawings are copyrighted to him (and maybe the title of the walk). You haven't copied any of those, the rest is BS.

    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: harry_keogh on 16:51:56, 04/09/19
    The copyright will no doubt be for the creative content of his books. The question is... would it be the sketch itself that is copyrighted? His own unique visual representation of the route? Or would it be the route itself. I highly suspect that copyright would be covering the former.

    Edit: You got there first.
    Pretty sure that titles cannot be copyrighted.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: jimbob on 17:21:19, 04/09/19
    "Witch" challenging walk are you doing near Belvoir?
     :D
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: tonyk on 19:16:59, 04/09/19
     Are you sure these emails have actually come from John Merrill himself? I wonder if the Board of Trustees have decided to tighten things up and use aggressive tactics to increase revenue? It might be worth talking to him on the phone and getting to the bottom of this as he is doing serious damage to his reputation.

     Paul Dawes wrote
    Quote
    The sad thing is that I have fond memories of the other guys’s books...I bought a reasonable number many years ago, when I first started walking parts of the Peak District.
    Same here.The Peakland Way was my first long distance walk in 1982 and I still have the guide book.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: April on 19:30:03, 04/09/19
    Harry, I had noticed your post a few days ago but not had much time to answer.

    Here is a thought. If Wainwright could apply the copyright law to the 214 Lake District Fells he wrote about it would mean nobody could write about a walk in the Lake District if they went up a fell!

    I have posted many times on this forum and on my Flickr account with details of routes in the Lake District. I have not broken any copyright laws, nor has anyone else who writes up a walk, and neither have you. Nice website by the way, I didn't know you had one until now  O0

    PS I have never heard of John Merrill  :D
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: ninthace on 19:42:30, 04/09/19
    Are you sure these emails have actually come from John Merrill himself? I wonder if the Board of Trustees have decided to tighten things up and use aggressive tactics to increase revenue? It might be worth talking to him on the phone and getting to the bottom of this as he is doing serious damage to his reputation.
    John Merrill is the Director of the Foundation, as such, he is responsible
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: richardh1905 on 19:43:07, 04/09/19
    I had never heard of John Merrill either, April.

    Now I know about him for all the wrong reasons.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: Hillhiker1 on 19:56:29, 04/09/19
    I had never heard of John Merrill either, April.

    Now I know about him for all the wrong reasons.


    Maybe you know him for the right reasons... :D
    I've never heard of him either, and now that I have; I certainly won't be buying any of his products
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: harry_keogh on 20:05:15, 04/09/19
    Quote from: Hillhiker1
    I've never heard of him either, and now that I have; I certainly won't be buying any of his products
    Not even the daysack?
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: Hillhiker1 on 20:08:56, 04/09/19
    Not even the daysack?


    You do realise that I'm going to have to go and look at that now don't you? ... :D
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: tonyk on 20:22:39, 04/09/19
    John Merrill is the Director of the Foundation, as such, he is responsible
    Bit of a grey area.

     "You are generally not liable for the actions of your fellow directors, if you knew nothing about them and took no part in them, but you have a duty to make sure you are informed about the company's affairs. You may well be liable if you turn a "blind eye" to misconduct by your fellow directors."
     https://www.lawdonut.co.uk/business/business-ownership-and-management/the-board-of-directors/directors-responsibilities (https://www.lawdonut.co.uk/business/business-ownership-and-management/the-board-of-directors/directors-responsibilities)

     What if he was of unsound mind? I presume in that situation Ms Sally Powers would make executive decisions.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: ninthace on 20:35:34, 04/09/19
    I'll rephrase that - according to Companies House, he is the only Director, Sally is Company Secretary.  There are no other officers.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: Mel on 20:48:49, 04/09/19
    Of course.

    As an afterthought... even if a route could be copyrighted, we're only talking about the visuals aren't we? After all, his maps tend to be hand drawn illustrations. So if I didn't display the map but instead simply offered a gps file for download - can that be comparible? A gpx file is, after all, simply a list of coordinates. It's something that many people use these days, and something that - so far as I know - he doesn't offer.


    If you didn't display his (hand drawn illustration) map then you are not infringing his copyright.  You are perfectly entitled to show a drawn trace of the route you took.  If you think about it, everyone who publicly shares their tracks and routes on platforms such as ViewRanger or Ordnance Survey would be in bother otherwise.


    April makes a good point about the trip reports on here.  Are we too all guilty if we happen to write about a walk which just happens to be in one of his books or on his website? 


    You've done plenty enough research to find out if he has any legitimacy in demanding you sign this agreement and from everything you've posted, no, he doesn't.



    Carry on doing what you are already doing and you shouldn't be made to feel like you have to take anything off your site just because the route you took happens to be the same one he wrote about in a book.  The route you took is the one you showed on a map that isn't his and you took your own pictures and wrote your own account of it.


    Please don't waste any more of your time corresponding with him or his "team".



    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: pleb on 09:53:17, 05/09/19
    Can appreciate being concerned about legal stuff, but sounds like just ignoring all this is the best idea.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: richardh1905 on 10:17:15, 05/09/19
    I wonder whether the Wainwright estate will be getting any ideas about this - all those people climbing so called 'Wainwrights' along routes that the Great Man catalogued.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: happyhiker on 13:40:34, 05/09/19
    I had never heard of John Merrill either, April.

    Now I know about him for all the wrong reasons.


    Think you have probably hit the nail on the head. Lots of us had never heard of this bloke. Now we all have - I.e. he is getting lots of free publicity. Perhaps we should stop talking about this and let him slither back into obscurity.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: Owen on 15:10:08, 05/09/19
    I have to confess, I have heard of him. Way back when I was just young lad Blacks produced a Merrill Tent, then the last word in lightweight camping. Like many I'd just assumed he was long gone. I think he was the first to walk the coastline of Britain, that was way back in the sixties. I think maybe he's rather lost the plot now.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: tonyk on 19:12:23, 05/09/19
     Interesting biography here.

     http://s10probus.co.uk/walking-my-way-john-merrill-24112014/ (http://s10probus.co.uk/walking-my-way-john-merrill-24112014/)

     It says his ascent and descent of Ben Nevis in 30 mins was a record.I am sure it was considering he must have been running at 18mph plus. :o
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: mananddog on 08:33:16, 06/09/19
    Well I'm off down to Leicestershire tomorrow to do a new walk that I've devised. I'm going to call it 'Grantham Canal and Belvoir Castle'. Any similarities to other routes are purely coincidental - after all, there are only so many ways to walk down Grantham Canal. If I ever get forced to take my current one down, it's going to be instantly replaced with this one.

    Oi!!!! I wrote an account of this walk in 2007 when I walked it with my dog and have repeated this walk many times to establish myself as the foremost walker in the Vale of Belvoir. I have website details and photographs to prove the case. I also invented the Hickling Wharfe Walk, The Stathern, Easton, Branston, Belvoir ale trail (SEBBAT) and 100 walks in the area, none had ever seen footfall before I trod them.

    I will issue a cease and desist order unless you contribute to "The Church of The Immaculate Boot (PLC)". If you intend to take a dog that should be multiplied per foot and paw.

    Seriously, I just came across this. I used to walk the Peak District through the 70s and kept a record in a stolen school jotter so perhaps the Reverend is infringing MY copyright.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: fernman on 17:21:52, 06/09/19
    Thanks also for introducing Mr Merrill. I'd never heard of him and he seems to be quite a walker

    Are you sure you spelt that correctly?

    Dear John, you are welcome to have a look at my website, you'll need several hours to read all of it it, and if you find any infringements I'll take it as a compliment.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: strawy on 02:45:09, 07/09/19
    Didnt he once sue a boot company for surnamemisspellagement...
    Now thats a word..
    Dont tell him,i dont like e-mails  :-X

    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: ninthace on 22:39:30, 15/09/19
    Harry, have you had any more dealings with JM?  Curious to hear how this saga finally turns out.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: ninthace on 09:49:01, 14/10/19
    Now you are just being provocative Harry.  You will have Mr Merrill after you!
    https://my.viewranger.com/route/details/MjY3NzIwNA== (https://my.viewranger.com/route/details/MjY3NzIwNA==)
    Did you hear any more?
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: tonyk on 10:37:41, 14/10/19
    Didnt he once sue a boot company for surnamemisspellagement...
    Now thats a word..
    Dont tell him,i dont like e-mails  :-X
    From what I remember he complained because he didn't endorse fabric or lightweight boots.They had to be heavy,have steel shanks and cause blisters for the first 500 miles.Even though the name of the company was different he was sure they were trying to trade on his name as he was the most famous walker in the world.In a way he was right as the name caught my eye and I associated it with him despite the spelling being different.Despite the hype surrounding him his name did sell products in the eighties,hence the reason he was sponsored by Blacks who were a respected brand in those days.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: harry_keogh on 15:09:05, 14/10/19
    Heard nothing at all since his last mail telling me he was referring it to his solicitor. In the meantime, I've talked about the subject of copyrighting a route (briefly) with the Ramblers Association, Ordnance Survey, the LDWA, an outdoors book publisher, and an outdoors book author. I've also had an informal chat with a couple of solicitors, and also posed the question to the UK copyright service. So far I've not found a single person that thinks you can copyright a route.

    That viewranger link has been there a while although I updated it today. My original post for the Belvoir Witches Challenge Walk was written some time ago before I revamped the format of my site. As he brought the post to my attention with all this, it made me realise that it really needed updating. I didn't like any of the photos either as it was a bit of a drab day. So a few weeks ago, on a lovely sunny day, I decided to rewalk the route and get a load of improved sunny photos. I revamped my post, upgraded it to the new format, and added in a bit more historical information with a few new photos from inside St Mary's Church. So here I give you the new improved Belvoir Witches Challenge Walk (https://hillexplorer.com/belvoir-witches-challenge-walk/)!
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: Mel on 19:24:10, 14/10/19
    Perhaps he's finally realised you're not so easy to scam as he first assumed  O0
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: Maggot on 09:53:04, 19/10/19
    .
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: ninthace on 16:46:43, 19/10/19
    .
    Well I think that has brought the discussion to a full stop.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: blistaz on 17:47:03, 19/10/19
    What a clown.
    I'm tempted to set up my own blog just so I can get in on the act.
    If so, I'd refer him to the reply in the matter of Arkell vs Pressdram
    http://www.lettersofnote.com/2013/08/arkell-v-pressdram.html
    PS - I once walked a bit of the South Downs Way. If anyone else reading this has also done so, that'll be £20 please.
    Title: Re: Cease and Desist Notice (FTAO those who run their own outdoors websites)
    Post by: jimbob on 18:17:32, 19/10/19
    What a clown.
    I'm tempted to set up my own blog just so I can get in on the act.
    If so, I'd refer him to the reply in the matter of Arkell vs Pressdram
    http://www.lettersofnote.com/2013/08/arkell-v-pressdram.html (http://www.lettersofnote.com/2013/08/arkell-v-pressdram.html)
    PS - I once walked a bit of the South Downs Way. If anyone else reading this has also done so, that'll be £20 please.
    Oh, how brilliant.

    April and Beefy will be aware that there is a famous firm of solicitors in North Tyneside of the name Hadaway.

    That name is also a Northumbrian dialect word for "get away or begone".

    So over the years when being challenged over legal matters we tend to refer said litigants to our solicitors " Hadaway and [censored]".

    Which is the practice I would point out to the previously mentioned gentleman.  ;)