Walking Forum
Main Boards => General Walking Discussion => Topic started by: karl h on 20:47:16, 24/04/20
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Ive recently read a few reports of this happening (and from Richards reports on his local walks ) and then on my route up to the moors i came across this
(http://www.karlswalks.co.uk/block.jpg)
The story has made the local paper
https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/18393084.enforcement-action-threat-public-pathway-darwen-deliberately-blocked/ (https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/18393084.enforcement-action-threat-public-pathway-darwen-deliberately-blocked/)
Ironically I use this path because ( the shorter ) alternative passed through a farmyard and I didn't want to antagonise the farmer anymore than I needed to.
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If so, in this case his timing is off - paths near built up areas are probably busier than they have ever been.
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I think more people than normal are walking the local RoW, due to C19. Which is likely to get obstructions like this reported. O0
Ninthace you beat me to it. ;)
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Yes. My cousin is a PROW officer, he says farmers are trying to stop folks walking through their yards.
His boss has told him to put enforcement action, and site visits, on hold.
My cousin isnt happy!
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I have come across a couple so far that looked as if attempts had been made to hide either the stiles or the sign posts.
One was a stile that was hidden from the lane by a jcb digger bucket, strategically placed. I had my gps with the route, but I am always a tad hesitant before making sure I am not walking up someones private path or drive. By chance a runner came flying by, sprinted up the driveway and leapt over the stile which was hidden from view. Then further on the plastic arrow signs at the next field had been sprayed over with green paint.
Another example was a kissing gate, which I already knew the position of, had been semi blocked by a builders skip.
At the moment though I try to avoid (if I can) any farmyards or paths that go very close to peoples doors, so as not to antagonise anyone. ???
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Two lots of signs a fortnight ago asking me not to go thru' farmyards of Tas Valley Walk in Norfolk, which I respected, given how spooked some folks are (my personal views are fatalistic). A few other scattered notices across Norfolk, saying essentially 'You should be at home,' which I just ignore, as do lots of other folk who are out and about on the paths. No problem today on the Wherryman's Way between Loddon and Norwich. Very nice walk: 17 miles, 3 deer, Gt Crested Grebes and a Grey Lag Goose that hissed when I tried to photograph its gosling.
Lot more traffic in Norwich. One way and another folks are just quietly starting up again.
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Lot more traffic in Norwich. One way and another folks are just quietly starting up again.
Most definitely. Lots more traffic here too, mostly in the afternoon, but also people in my road are seen to be having visitors, or a woman who owns a currently empty flat has been coming in the evenings with cleaning materials. The reason is the police are not doing anything to deter people. Last Sunday a group of 6 eastern europeans plus kids made a right nuisance of themselves in a tiny garden with very loud music going on and off most of the day; the person living closest to them phoned 101 to complain that lockdown was being broken, details were taken but no action was taken because they were still at it some hours later.
Sorry, rant over, I had to get that off my chest.
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One of the problems in my area is the number of people who never walk have understandably started using paths (I have never seen them so busy).Some of them don't understand the rules and have exercised dogs on crops etc.Justifiably the local farmer is not happy about this.He also noted last Sunday that over 100 people went through his yard on the PROW although he has not tried to obstruct this.
This is the law of unintended consequences when asking people to walk from home rather than a 5 minute drive to a quieter area.
Perhaps a bit more traffic but I was in Durham yesterday on a lovely day and it was like a ghost town so compliance levels still very high.
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Have not seen any blocked paths in my area, but I am choosing my routes carefully to avoid people. There is a lovely walk from my village to the next village, high up overlooking the river, with lovely views. I am not using it at the moment because I know there will be others rambling along. The path is narrow so meeting someone with no way to avoid passing them is a no no at the moment. I am walking on paths along field edges, away from any buildings.
ilona
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I try to give people whom I pass 6 feet clearance whilst out walking. It's good manners in the the present 'emergency.'
But the more I think about it, the dafter it is.
Standing 6 feet away from someone, coughing, in the supermarket queue for 10 minutes is one thing. Being briefly within 6 feet of someone whom you're passing, with a closing speed of 5 mph (i.e both moving at 2.5 mph) is quite different.
The calculation is 5 mph closing speed = 26000 feet/h = 7 ft/sec and a total distance of 12 ft when you're 'within range', meaning under 2 seconds. On average you inhale only once every 3-4 seconds. Easy enough just not to inhale in the moments you're actually within 6 feet.
Unless you stop for a cuddle (or to disengage fighting dogs) the risk is tiny.
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What if you are following them to overtake? ;)
Of course. if a person is exercising then they should be breathing heavily so the number of virons per exhalation should be quite low as the lungs are being flushed each time and will have been since the exercise started.
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Two farms near here, both of which happen to be organic, one veg one meat, have put signs on gates on paths which are not even PRoWS but simply farm tracks or their own 'round farm' walks.
The big difference is that these signs simply ask people to take care not to touch stiles and gates and in one case - the veggie farm so they have no stock in the fields - an instruction to leave the pedestrian gate tied open so no need to touch even the latch.
Thank you to them - life feels so much better than when walking past the permanent signs (private road, no public right of way, no access, keep out etc) displayed, often several at a time on every gate of the Perridge estate which has not one PRoW in all it's 400 hectares.
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@ninthace
If you're overtaking you can choose where to do so, staying 6 feet apart. It's harder to choose time and place if you're coming in opposite directions.
And, yes, depth of breathing, increased respiration rate going uphill, up-wind/down-wind effects will all be factors. My calculation is simplistic for not taking these into account. Nonetheless the main point stands, that proximity is very brief and that odds of transmission consequently must be very small.
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Ban joggers! I dont trust em anyway, they should be walking.
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Ban joggers! I dont trust em anyway, they should be walking.
Too right! If they had got up on time they would not have to run to get where they are going!
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I'm an off-road jogger, is that better or worse? I haven't noticed anything at all, all the paths and kissing gates on my running routes are clear, in two weeks of running I've only seen one person. Except in the car parks of course. People seem to be behaving almost as before, they drive and park, get out, kick a tyre or two, may wander up to 100yds and then get back in to recover from their exertion, some even need a cigarette or to vape too recover!
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Do you have a supply of gloves to deal with gates or do you just clean your hands at the end? As a non-jogger I have the benefit of poles that can deal with most gates that I come across apart from the odd spring bolt without a latch. I have a pair of silk liners for those. I can take them on and off without touching the outside. If I have to wear them for a while, they are much more comfortable than disposables or marigolds and they go in the washing machine when I get home.
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Do you have a supply of gloves to deal with gates or do you just clean your hands at the end? As a non-jogger I have the benefit of poles that can deal with most gates that I come across apart from the odd spring bolt without a latch. I have a pair of silk liners for those. I can take them on and off without touching the outside. If I have to wear them for a while, they are much more comfortable than disposables or marigolds and they go in the washing machine when I get home.
I gather a bit of grass or some leaves in my hand, open and close the gate and then discard it.
Just hope a dog hasn’t been having a leak on it before I pick whatever I use up.
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As I posted a while back my local council placed notices on one of local paths asking people not to use it unless "there was no alternative". (It was an odd wording I felt...there is always an alternative...but on other hand its not an outright ban.)
I know the area well...with best will in world I couldn't see any reason to close off that particular path, and leave all the other local paths open. So I contacted local councillor to ask who I could discuss issue with. Over a week ago..no reply. I guess whoever ordered the notice has never walked the area.
A mate rang about half a hour ago to say he thought council had placed more forceful notices, closing that path and several others. But he's not read the notices...there were a few disgruntled walkers got there before him...they formed an orderly queue to read them...and turned back one by one...so he left well alone.
I'll get up early tomorrow and see what notices say. Bit strange..sadly if local paths are closed off...will have to have a brood whether to just pavement bash for next few weeks, or whether to get in car and drive for 20 mins to areas that I'm pretty sure will still be open.
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My mate now done more research...just a temporary closure to allow some repair work to get done.
(Mind you not an unknown phenomenon for temporary closure to last much longer than first claimed, while very little repair gets done...)
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I don't get the gates thing. Some people on Facebook groups are getting really feisty about it. The way I see it is you should always be washing your hands after touching kissing gates anyway, if you don't then you're the problem. Or atleast that's your choice
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Do you have a supply of gloves to deal with gates or do you just clean your hands at the end? As a non-jogger I have the benefit of poles that can deal with most gates that I come across apart from the odd spring bolt without a latch. I have a pair of silk liners for those. I can take them on and off without touching the outside. If I have to wear them for a while, they are much more comfortable than disposables or marigolds and they go in the washing machine when I get home.
I take hand sanitiser on my walks . I use it every time I've touched a stile or gate.
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I take hand sanitiser on my walks . I use it every time I've touched a stile or gate.
In theory it should be used before and after touching something. Before to stop you contaminating it and after to destroy anything you have picked up. In reality if you clean before the first touch of the day and after each touch then that will save on sanitiser provided you touch nothing in between (including you face). Personally I prefer a physical barrier though.
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Re. gates etc. No precautions except trying to use wrist /knuckles rather than fingertips. As a fatalist I assume I'll catch this in due course, as most of us will. Then I'll win or lose. Even at 60 my odds are pretty good, i reckon. The idea of hiding away is delusional.
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The idea of hiding away is delusional.
That is my point too.
With reference to paths being closed I see that the Welsh Assembly have issued the instruction to close paths and honeypot sites. This has been interpreted freely by various local authorities rather too liberally in my view. The near hysteria reported in the press from locals and the consideration now of evicting 2nd home owners will be met by an easy response from myself. Having the good fortune to live in Yorkshire I shall content myself never to visit Wales again. If they don't need my business now they won't need it in the future. For the avoidance of doubt I had no intention of travelling to Wales during these restrictions.
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The idea of hiding away is delusional.
I disagree. It depends on your own health, the odds of it doing you serious harm and the effect on or risk to those who live with you and the effect on your wider family. As time progresses, the risk of infection decreases while our understanding of the disease and the possibility of an effective treatment or prevention increases.
If you live alone, will not need nursing or in the worst case, will be unmourned, and will put no-one else at risk if you get it - then have it.
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The idea of hiding away is delusional.
I suspect that you might feel differently if you were in an 'at risk' group. Or if your wife was, for example.
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Joggers are one level up from walkers and one level down from runners
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Hmmm Apache. A look at the map suggests that there's more Covid in N and W Wales than in rural Yorkshire....https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274.co.uk (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51768274.co.uk).
I think a lot of the venom directed at second-home owners arises from origins unrelated to Covid and I have some sympathy with locals who've been priced out. Nonetheless anywhere that creates a reputation as unwelcoming is going to struggle even more than average as we come out of this. My guess is that there'll be real tensions between the tourist business side and the deep locals/hiding retirees on the other in lots of walking areas There was a bit of this after the F&M in 2001, but this'll be much worse.
As for me I'd walked the mainland coast of Wales thru' 2017-9, but had just started Anglesey when this farrago started. Whist is bit of a [censored]**r.
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Joggers are one level up from walkers and one level down from runners
Wrong way up!
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@richardh1905; ninthace
I respect your views. I'm not at the top of the risk pyramid, but not at the bottom either. My point is that this virus is unlikely to go away and that one cannot hide for ever. If I thought a long lockdown might cause it to do so, I'd take a different view. But, given its int'l dissemination I reckon it'll be there and waiting when we come out. In which case better (a) not to impoverish ourselves and (b) to face hazard in the summer than next flu season. So much for the economics and science of it, but poetry's often better and Housman captures my thinking, or comes close to it:
Far I hear the bugle blow
To call me where I would not go,
And the guns begin the song,
“Soldier, fly or stay for long.”
‘Comrade, if to turn and fly
Made a soldier never die,
Fly I would, for who would not?
’Tis sure no pleasure to be shot.
‘But since the man that runs away
Lives to die another day,
And cowards’ funerals, when they come,
Are not wept so well at home,
Therefore, though the best is bad,
Stand and do the best, my lad;
Stand and fight and see your slain,
And take the bullet in your brain.’
...... and, who knows, the odds are a damn sight better than at the Somme or Waterloo, even if you have the odd co-morbidity
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Nice poem - but supposed you stayed in your trench until the Armistice? I may or may not be able to the avoid virus, time will tell but there is nothing to be gained by putting myself or my loved ones in harm's way if I can avoid it. On the other hand there is much to be lost by catching it, both personally and for my family, not to mention the expense to the NHS. As I said, the prevalence of the virus decreases with time, increasing the odds of avoiding it altogether and increasing the chances of an effective treatment being discovered.
I am retired, my economic contribution as a producer is zero and as a consumer is pretty similar in or out of lockdown. The only things I am not doing at present is going to the pub and buying petrol 20 litres of petrol every 6 weeks.
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@Ninthace
Choosing prolonged self-isolation/social distancing on you own account would, of course, be your business. I wouldn't dream of criticising anyone's free choice so long as it didn't impinge upon me. And, of course, maybe the folks seeking vaccines will hit lucky. So, you may win.
Just three points, though:
(a) How long are you prepared to do this for?
(b) Suppose natural immunity arises in those who've been infected but is short lived. If so, the likelihood (based on common cold coronaviruses in the 1980s) is that people who've had one dose will have milder repeat infections. But, you'll still be virgin territory for something that's turned endemic. Hiding then becomes even harder.
(c) There was an argument, which I support, for giving the NHS time to prepare. But the notion that you're saving the NHS money in the long term is, surely, questionable. Very cynically, the NHS gains financially when people die quickly of things that don't require multiple interventions; its day-to-day travails are due to 'revolving door patients' in and out repeatedly with multiple pathologies.
...... & staying in the trench till Armistice.... well, first my Gt Grandfather was the RSM in the 5th XXXXXX Rgt and wouldn't have been pleased.....and, second, it wouldn't have done you any good when the the Germans attacked in March 1918. They'd have come into your safe little trench.
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@Ninthace
Choosing prolonged self-isolation/social distancing on you own account would, of course, be your business. I wouldn't dream of criticising anyone's free choice so long as didn't impinge upon me. And, of course, maybe the folks seeking vaccines will hit lucky. So, you may win.
Just three points, though:
(a) How long are you prepared to do this for?
(b) Suppose natural immunity arises in those who've been infected but is short lived. The likelihood is (based on common cold coronaviruses in the 1980s) that people who've had one dose will have milder repeat infections. But, you'll still be virgin territory for something that's turned endemic. Hiding then becomes even harder.
(c) There was an argument, which I support, for giving the NHS time to prepare. But the notion that you're saving the NHS money in the long term is, surely, questionable. Very cynically, the NHS gains financially when people die quickly of things that don't require multiple interventions; its day-to-day travails are due to 'revolving door patients' in and out repeatedly with multiple pathologies.
...... & staying in the trench till Armistice.... well, first my Gt Grandfather was the RSM in the 5th XXXXXX Rgt and wouldn't have been pleased.....and, second, it wouldn't have done you any good when the the Germans attacked in March 1918. They'd have come into your safe little trench.
a. As long as I can - it is no great hardship to tbh. I have worked with and taught people to handle radioactive materials, many of the same principles apply. Moreover, as the risk reduces, I can adapt my strategy. It beats the alternative in my book.
b. The odds of it killing me if I get it are probably higher than rolling a double 6, have a look at https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ and this time pick a country that is following a similar strategy to the UK rather than one taking a more proactive approach, say one whose graphs we are following closely. Even if it does not kill there is a fair chance it will hurt and my family may get it. That is too high a price to acquire a possible immunity that may or may not last.
c. I am also happy to give the NHS time to prepare. In time they will get better at treating the condition and have more resources. You still have not addressed the possibility of an effective treatment being developed in time, which if not a cure, may reduce the impact.
Your Gt Grandfather can whistle - I have 30 years military service behind me from before the Falklands, through the Balkans, Gulf 1, Gulf 1.5, Gulf 2 and Afghanistan not to mention being the target of various terrorist groups. In that time, I have lost friends and I have had to break bad news. I might add that the war analogy is a poor one. We may think of it in those terms but you cannot apply the principles of warfare to a pandemic.
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It is perfectly reasonable for the vulnerable to shield themselves from the virus. My parents are in their 80s and have underlying health issues - my dad has been identified as being particularly at risk. It is also reasonable for those in isolated or rural areas to be unhappy about an influx of incomers that may spread the disease or put additional strain on limited resources and infrastructure. Self isolation has slowed the progress of the disease and the less people that have it, the lower the chance of infection and the higher the chance some type of effective treatment may be found. To suggest that we should just let people succumb to the disease in the summer rather than wait for the flu season is ridiculous. If some one is shielding, they are also being protected from flu.
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Where I live under normal circumstances there are only half a dozen people walk the area we are a very small village. Since lockdown we've been under siege from new walkers joggers and cyclists. They are disrespectful of the countryside. A few landowners have ploughed paths, Slurried the paths , covered the PROW signs with bin bags and sawn stiles off. It's a military manoeuvre now walking my dog. A minority of outsiders have spoilt it for every one. The only good thing now is they have got the hint and stopped coming. The litter has reduced as have the crap apples and disposable glove littering. I've never known anything like it. Social distancing does not bother me in the least as my village is very quiet and I live on the edge of it. However i could not social distance as it was like the M25. There is no pathway past my house and since lockdown the crop fields around me have been full of these idiots so I sympathise with the farmers. As for the police I have seen one police car in my area since lockdown. I realise everyone wants to walk but they should show respect for the area. We have also had a lot of fly tipping too since the tips were closed. The locals took it in their own hands to stop people trespassing.
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There can be little doubt, in the minds of many, since the 1950's we have bred several generation of slobs
Since lockdown we've been under siege from new walkers joggers and cyclists. They are disrespectful of the countryside.
But I wonder where this disrespect comes from, the countryside is not as tidy as it was in the 1940's and 50's. But much of this slobbery is due to the occupiers of the countryside and at the same time there has become a very much sharper divide between private land and the access network.
A few landowners have ploughed paths, Slurried the paths , covered the PROW signs with bin bags and sawn stiles off. It's a military manoeuvre now walking my dog.
Since the landowner has muscled in on agriculture because of tax advantages, the countryside has become a far more untidy place. Even some of the land management has become more slovenly.
A minority of outsiders have spoilt it for every one.
The majority, who could take far more active role in countryside security and monitor public misbehavior, if they were shown the respect they deserve. Why should we stand for being identified jointly with the the minority and more to the point, is it all fault of a privileged minority that we cannot work for the betterment of society as a whole.
Perhaps the people, who the previous poster accuses of being disrespectful have not had the chance to be shown how to respect the countryside by good example.
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Perhaps the people, who the previous poster accuses of being disrespectful have not had the chance to be shown how to respect the countryside by good example.
Unfortunately you can't educate stupid. Signage saying pick up dog poo plus dog bins are there. Signs saying dogs on leash. Signs saying pick up litter , close gates , no trespassing. Some people are just plain disrespectful of the countryside and spoil it for others.
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My usual path along the River Don was blocked off today with a gate and some fencing. The farmer had put up a makeshift sign saying “Stop. No Entry”. There were cows in the field next to the river, but there is a bank between the path and field that may allow access for the cows to the river.
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If I were to find my way blocked on a PRoW that I had every right to walk, then I'd go around the obstruction if possible or remove it if not. However, if there was an easy alternative, I'd probably use that instead to avoid a possible confrontation. In either case, I'd take photos to include with my report to the Kent County Council.
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If I were to find my way blocked on a PRoW that I had every right to walk, then I'd go around the obstruction if possible or remove it if not. However, if there was an easy alternative, I'd probably use that instead to avoid a possible confrontation. In either case, I'd take photos to include with my report to the Kent County Council.
This is what everyone should do if a PRoW is purposely blocked. Also report to pathwatch. However councils rights of way officials depending on where you live are hard to get hold of at present.
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Q: Are landowners taking advantage of CV to block paths ?
A: Yes, a few are in this corner of Warks. Several of us have reported the worst examples to the County Council.
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I don’t think the path I was following is a PRoW, but I live in Scotland and we have different access rules here. Looking at the legislation and Access Code, I couldn’t find any obvious legal reason for preventing access to the path. I do have a photograph, but only a poor one on my phone.
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We had a run in with a farmer who had put up a closed sign at a PRoW, with no suggested way around it. He became abusive to the extent that I reported the incident to the police who have cautioned the farmer. I also reported it to the local authority and the Peak and Northern. Sign now removed. Walkers need to insist that PRoWs are respected. I have sympathy with farmers who have to deal with anti-social behaviour but that is a separate issue. (Ironically, my wife, called by the farmer "an aggressive old [censored]" and worse, comes from a farming family.)
Dave
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I don’t think the path I was following is a PRoW, but I live in Scotland and we have different access rules here. Looking at the legislation and Access Code, I couldn’t find any obvious legal reason for preventing access to the path. I do have a photograph, but only a poor one on my phone.
In the context of Scottish Law, I would suggest, the landowner is at fault by not stating a reason, as you have a legal right of responsible access. If it is clear that there is a path that is being used then there must be a destination. This goes to the root of the whole access argument, landowners are not required by grant of freehold to be aware how the position of their holding affects the community at large.
As regards;Unfortunately you can't educate stupid. Signage saying pick up dog poo plus dog bins are there. Signs saying dogs on leash. Signs saying pick up litter , close gates , no trespassing. Some people are just plain disrespectful of the countryside and spoil it for others.
Why try to educate 'stupid', to further the arguments of those, who would restrict access, by joining with them. The need for improvements in the footpath network needs examples and creative reasoning to promote itself. Landowners have yet to realize that leisure is a powerful modern force that replaces 'the ways to work and shortcuts of yesteryear'. Perhaps some of this misbehavior is a symptom of the restrictions imposed by those living in a bygone age.
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In the context of Scottish Law, I would suggest, the landowner is at fault by not stating a reason, as you have a legal right of responsible access. If it is clear that there is a path that is being used then there must be a destination. This goes to the root of the whole access argument, landowners are not required by grant of freehold to be aware how the position of their holding affects the community at large.
I don’t think the path goes anywhere, except further along the riverbank. Further along progress is blocked by a burn and bog and further still a house and garden appears to extend to the water’s edge.
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And that in itself is a reason to walk there, in New Zealand, where there is no legal public access and presumably freehold in the English law form, there is the Queen's Chain, which in itself is a recognition of the importance of stream and river banks as a natural place for contemplation and relaxation.
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An update to my original post.
Despite being requested to remove the obstruction by the council it's still there but with the increased number of people walking over it due to CV it's virtually been worn away now anyway.