Walking Forum

Main Boards => General Walking Discussion => Topic started by: Walk666 on 14:22:08, 06/01/19

Title: Boxing day hunt
Post by: Walk666 on 14:22:08, 06/01/19
When I was out walking on Boxing day I came across a hunt of at least 20 horses or more and numerous dogs, they had come along a public footpath to reach a village, I thought horses where only supposed to use  bridleways, the path was in a complete mess where the horses hooves had turfed it up.
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: sussamb on 14:42:04, 06/01/19
Landowners can allow horses to use footpaths so it's not as clear cut as just saying horses can't use footpaths.
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: richardh1905 on 14:46:18, 06/01/19
Highly likely that they had the permission of the landowner, 666.
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: Walk666 on 14:46:39, 06/01/19
Landowners can allow horses to use footpaths so it's not as clear cut as just saying horses can't use footpaths.
I thought that was only on permissive footpaths? I thought that public footpaths where council owned, Thank you for shedding light on the matter, we learn a little everyday :)
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: Walk666 on 14:51:02, 06/01/19
Highly likely that they had the permission of the landowner, 666.
yes I understand now, I've never been sure about the rights of the land owners regarding public footpaths, I've just read that permissive paths are where the land owner has given permission, like I said before I was just always under the impression that public footpaths where council owned and strictly for walkers, I'm learning stuff here and it's good cause I need to understand more about the rights of way laws :)
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: alan de enfield on 20:12:41, 06/01/19
When I was out walking on Boxing day I came across a hunt of at least 20 horses or more and numerous dogs, they had come along a public footpath to reach a village, I thought horses where only supposed to use  bridleways, the path was in a complete mess where the horses hooves had turfed it up.



I'm in Lincolnshire and all around us there doesn't seem to be many rural 'footpaths' remaining, they seem to have all been converted into 'Restricted Byeways'. Urban footpaths (ie thru Woodhall) are still shown as 'footpaths'.
Of course we have the Viking Way (running thru Woodhall).


The law states :


Sections 47-50 of the 2000 Act introduce a new category of highway called the “restricted byway”. A restricted byway is defined as a highway over which the public have restricted byway rights, with or without the right to drive animals of any description. “Restricted byway rights” include a right of way on foot, on horseback or leading a horse and a right of way for vehicles other than mechanically propelled vehicles (this includes a right of way for pedal cycles and horse drawn vehicles).
 



http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006/1177/made






You may find this mapping useful (if you don't already know it).
Zoom in/out and scroll down to your area of interest.


http://row.lincolnshire.gov.uk/map.aspx?act=Walking
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: Jac on 23:36:51, 06/01/19
When I was out walking on Boxing day I came across a hunt of at least 20 horses or more and numerous dogs, they had come along a public footpath to reach a village, I thought horses where only supposed to use  bridleways, the path was in a complete mess where the horses hooves had turfed it up.



More importantly why were they hunting with numerous dogs (by which I assume you mean hounds) unless they were drag hunting they should, by law, only have one couple of hounds i.e.2 dogs to flush a fox to be despatched by a gun.
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: Ronin83 on 10:56:33, 07/01/19
Wait, isn't fox hunting illegal full stop?
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: ninthace on 12:10:37, 07/01/19
Wait, isn't fox hunting illegal full stop?
Drag hunting isn’t and this is almost certainly what they were doing. It looks much the same as old fashioned fox hunting.
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: phil1960 on 19:20:53, 07/01/19
Drag hunting is just a front for illegal hunting in a lot of cases, see the brutality handed out to hunt monitors on a regular basis, all in the name of tearing a fox apart, oh sorry I mean tradition!
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: Couchwalker on 22:36:17, 07/01/19
Drag hunting is just a front for illegal hunting in a lot of cases, see the brutality handed out to hunt monitors on a regular basis, all in the name of tearing a fox apart, oh sorry I mean tradition!


Is a walking forum really the correct place for this? I might not be a regular contributor compared to some, but I enjoy coming here to read about walking not peoples views on fox hunting.
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: April on 22:58:07, 07/01/19
Is a walking forum really the correct place for this?

Perhaps not but the thread was bound to digress.

I might not be a regular contributor compared to some, but I enjoy coming here to read about walking not peoples views on fox hunting.

There might have been a clue in the thread title so you could have avoided it  ;)

Drag hunting is just a front for illegal hunting in a lot of cases, see the brutality handed out to hunt monitors on a regular basis, all in the name of tearing a fox apart, oh sorry I mean tradition!

You are right Phil, illegal hunts are still taking place, there is enough video footage out there to prove it  :(
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: Couchwalker on 23:04:51, 07/01/19
Shame, I thought I'd found a nice place of solace without the [censored] normally found on forums.
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: Innominate Man on 00:55:49, 08/01/19
I have no axe to grind either way and certainly have no liking for the 'landed gentry' or 'wannabes' attracted to it .... But, as someone with a love of the outdoors and belief that such matters need to be viewed in the bigger picture, I don't agree with the publicity peddled by the media and generally based on a city view of the countryside.
Like most people I find foxes a very beautiful  animal and I don't like cruelty to any beast but it must be remembered that the cute Reynard is also responsible for cruelty and vicious attacks to poultry and lambs (as wells other small animals, which may not necessarily be of farm origin).
I can't quote the numbers but I have previously read the figures involved are quite shocking when a fox or foxes get amongst lambs/poultry.
There seems to be little support for the poor badger who is being culled in large numbers, being blamed for TB in cattle despite little evidence that they transmit the disease or a noticeable decrease in TB in cattle where local badger culling has occurred.
(we are digressing now - but only for the sake of context) .... So the reasoning and/or sympathy in many cases, regarding sport/hunting/culling etc seems to suit the purposes of politics more than reasoning.
And before anyone jumps to conclusions about my stance - I too don't like the thought of a fox being ripped to shreds by a pack of baying hounds but neither do I like the idea of a chicken coup or several lambs being killed by a hungry fox.
I find the idea of dabbing young children/first time hunters faces in the blood of the killed fox totally abhorrent and more to do with ridiculous rituals than serving any purpose.
So for the sake of balance (please note Couchwalker) I thought it worth posting my ramblings on the subject.
I suspect this won't be popular but it's my view and I'm yet to be shown something to warrant me changing it. Happy to be proved wrong, but not by BBC type views, please.

Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: Couchwalker on 06:58:20, 08/01/19
I have no axe to grind either way and certainly have no liking for the 'landed gentry' or 'wannabes' attracted to it ....
So for the sake of balance (please note Couchwalker) I thought it worth posting my ramblings on the subject.
I suspect this won't be popular but it's my view and I'm yet to be shown something to warrant me changing it. Happy to be proved wrong, but not by BBC type views, please.


What a good post and one I wholeheartedly agree with.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not pro-fox hunting, far from it. I don't eat meat or dairy, which admittedly was initially due to health reasons, but is now down to animal welfare reasons. In fact, late 80's I was a hunt sab, and a member of a well known animal 'welfare' organisation and also was a hunt 'monitor' on a few hunts more recently. Being involved with people like that made me realise a lot of them had no interest in the foxes welfare, they were there to cause trouble. What so called hunt monitor, blows a horn on the opposite side of a busy dual carriageway to try and lure the hounds into traffic? The 'brutality' dished out was generally because they were just as bad, trying to dismount riders, deliberately standing in their path, trespassing on property they had no right on, whilst the hunt did. Of course tempers will flare. Both sides were in the wrong but of course it was the hunt that was made to look bad. Personally I find them as bad as each other.

What annoyed me was that the thread was quite civilised but then 1 comment which wasn't required gives it the potential to descend into another drama fest. I have many forums I can go to if I want that, from my observations, this forum is generally drama free and I love it for that reason. I'm all for healthy debate, but this thread wasn't going that way.
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: ninthace on 08:45:03, 08/01/19
Well spoken! Both of you.
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: April on 08:46:45, 08/01/19
Shame, I thought I'd found a nice place of solace without the [censored] normally found on forums.

I don't think anything so far has been too [censored]?  :-\

The forum is a great place but sometimes we do digress on threads sometimes  :)

the cute Reynard is also responsible for cruelty and vicious attacks to poultry and lambs (as wells other small animals, which may not necessarily be of farm origin).

IM, yes foxes do kill chickens and lambs but the biggest threat to animals in this world is caused by humans. Humans kill far more chickens and lambs than foxes ever will.

There seems to be little support for the poor badger who is being culled in large numbers, being blamed for TB in cattle despite little evidence that they transmit the disease or a noticeable decrease in TB in cattle where local badger culling has occurred.

I totally agree with you. I once saw a documentary that highlighted the futility of the badger cull to eradicate TB in cattle.  (Might have been the BBC  ;))

IM, I can assure you my views on this subject are entirely my own. Or they may have been inspired by Piers Morgan  ;) His utterly ridiculous tweet in response to Greggs selling vegan sausage rolls has inspired quite a few people to think about veganism and how we humans treat animals.

In fact, late 80's I was a hunt sab, and a member of a well known animal 'welfare' organisation and also was a hunt 'monitor' on a few hunts more recently. Being involved with people like that made me realise a lot of them had no interest in the foxes welfare, they were there to cause trouble. What so called hunt monitor, blows a horn on the opposite side of a busy dual carriageway to try and lure the hounds into traffic?

 :o This is an eye opener, Couchwalker, thank you for posting about this.

What annoyed me was that the thread was quite civilised but then 1 comment which wasn't required gives it the potential to descend into another drama fest. .

I hope it wasn't my post you found to be uncivilised. It wasn't meant to be  :-[

I don't eat meat or dairy, which admittedly was initially due to health reasons, but is now down to animal welfare reasons.

I have been vegetarian for 31 years and have thought about becoming a vegan for years. The response from certain people last week to Greggs daring to provide a vegan something to eat has giving me the push I needed. I am now determined to go vegan. Thanks Piers and to Greggs, your tweets were hilarious  O0

Sorry, I have now digressed even further  :-[  ;)
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: Ronin83 on 09:01:37, 08/01/19
Just a simple point before we, hopefully, move on...


There's other ways to control fox population than having dogs tear them to pieces in a slow and painful death for the entertainment of humans.
A proper controlled cull would ensure they are killed quickly by professionals with the right tools.
So, fox overpopulation/killing livestock is no excuse for 'hunting' at all.
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: Innominate Man on 10:26:35, 08/01/19
With apologies to the the OP, we have digressed considerably but a very interesting discussion nonetheless and some interesting points/views being made in a pleasant civilised way.
And as Groucho Marks said - 'Those are my principles and if you don't like them ..... well, I have others'   ;D



I have been vegetarian for 31 years .............

Hmmm ... so what do you wash your red wine down with ?   :D   :D
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: beefy on 11:09:26, 08/01/19
Hmmm ... so what do you wash your red wine down with ?   :D   :D
More red wine of course  ;D
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: beefy on 11:16:12, 08/01/19

Is a walking forum really the correct place for this? I might not be a regular contributor compared to some, but I enjoy coming here to read about walking not peoples views on fox hunting.
Just because you don't regularly contribute, doesn't mean your not a valued member of the forum Couchwalker  :)

It's entirely up to you what you choose to read I suppose,
Just ignore the topics you don't want to read about, and enjoy the ones you do  O0
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: April on 13:09:45, 08/01/19
Hmmm ... so what do you wash your red wine down with ?   :D   :D

More red wine of course  ;D

 ;D You can get red wine that is vegetarian IM
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: beefy on 13:48:04, 08/01/19
;D You can get red wine that is vegetarian IM
I prefer it made from grapes  :D
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: Innominate Man on 13:48:51, 08/01/19
;D You can get red wine that is vegetarian IM
More red wine of course  ;D


Ah, diluted - of course  O0
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: barewirewalker on 13:57:53, 08/01/19
Drag hunting is just a front for illegal hunting in a lot of cases, see the brutality handed out to hunt monitors on a regular basis, all in the name of tearing a fox apart, oh sorry I mean tradition!
I don't thinks this a good generalization, certain not when an emotive off forum subject is being, discussed with tolerance, because it does negatively impact a walker true interests.
Not many here seem to look on the horse rider as an ally.

The debate and conclusion of the Fox Hunting issue caused a great deal of ill feeling in country communities, which will take the loss of a generation before it has much chance of healing. But anyone expressing strong views should be aware of how the realities are, if you are a keen equestrian the drag hunt is the only opportunity to ride in open country in the way that can only be created by the willing support of a large number of landowners. There are landowner's, who support the ban on fox hunting, so it would seem likely that a hunt would want to maximize the area in which it wants to operate. There is a hunting season, so this sort of open country riding will not give year round coverage to the keener riders, hacking is the out of season option and the bridleways are where this takes place.

If I were to make an analogy with walking, hacking is what we do most of the time but some of us go off and climb rocks, even snow and ice climbs, throw in a few precarious bivouacs and if we are unlucky get killed. The drag can give the horse rider the equestrian equivalent. Of course a fox may break cover, but it is the responsibility of the Master to ensure that his huntsman keeps the hounds on the drag scent. Now I don't know how effective these officers of the hunt are in managing this, but I do know some people, who could tell me. As this topic has made me realize this, I am going to bend a few ears.

One thing I am sure of, if the horse industry is to keep this valuable sort of open country riding, then it must obey the rules and laws. All interests need the willing support of various occupiers of this land to fully benefit from leisure resource of the countryside.

Walkers certainly do not need the animosity associated with anti-hunt activists, especially if it is attracted by association with erroneous propaganda.
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: ninthace on 14:02:34, 08/01/19
Just a thought April.  The Lake District landscape is the product of animal farming.  If we all went veggie/vegan, what would happen to the countryside?  As a proxy vegetarian - I am doing my bit to look after the landscape  :)


Our walk today was like being near a war zone, the pheasants were really taking a pasting.  Time we armed them birds and taught them to shoot back!  I have never had a problem with hunting for the pot but these guys must have been starving!
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: Innominate Man on 14:09:29, 08/01/19
I don't thinks this a good generalization, certain not when an emotive off forum subject is being, discussed with tolerance, because it does negatively impact a walker true interests.
Not many here seem to look on the horse rider as an ally.

The debate and conclusion of the Fox Hunting issue caused a great deal of ill feeling in country communities, which will take the loss of a generation before it has much chance of healing. But anyone expressing strong views should be aware of how the realities are, if you are a keen equestrian the drag hunt is the only opportunity to ride in open country in the way that can only be created by the willing support of a large number of landowners. There are landowner's, who support the ban on fox hunting, so it would seem likely that a hunt would want to maximize the area in which it want to operate. There is a hunting season, so this sort of open country riding will not give year round coverage to the keener riders, hacking is the out of season option and the bridleways are where this takes place.

If I were to make an analogy with walking, hacking is what we do most of the time but some of us go off and climb rocks, even snow and ice climbs, throw in a few precarious bivouacs and if we are unlucky get killed. The drag can give the horse rider the equestrian equivalent. Of course a fox may break cover, but it is the responsibility of the Master to ensure that his huntsman keeps the hounds on the drag scent. Now I don't know how effective these officers of the hunt are in managing this, but I do know some people, who could tell me. As this topic has made me realize this, I am going to bend a few ears.

One thing I am sure of, if the horse industry is to keep this valuable sort of open country riding, then it must obey the rules and laws. We all need the willing support various occupiers of this land to fully benefit from leisure resource of the countryside.
Quite a number of years ago we used to go to a local village on Boxing Day to see the hunt gathering & setting off. We have no interest in hunting but my son was mad about horses and it was a good opportunity to (locally) see a lot of them at close range.
I appreciate the whole purpose of it is to 'hunt' but as bww states, there is a huge involvement purely for the joy of riding.
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: phil1960 on 15:47:57, 08/01/19

Is a walking forum really the correct place for this? I might not be a regular contributor compared to some, but I enjoy coming here to read about walking not peoples views on fox hunting.
It’s my opinion, like it or don’t. As a not so regular poster here you are still entitled to your opinion, so am I.
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: phil1960 on 16:04:00, 08/01/19
Some interesting replies indeed, I’m in agreement with April though. One good thing it has prompted debate about an emotive subject, if one or two have an issue with my post I really couldn’t care less, quite often topics go off on a tangent, get used to it. One more thing I would add, a Fox is a wild animal that kills to survive, sometimes wild animals need to be controlled, and in the right most humane way I have no issue with that, To do so for fun and tradition is appaling and so are those that support it.
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: Mel on 16:16:06, 08/01/19
When I was out walking on Boxing day I came across .... at least 20 horses or more and numerous dogs, they had come along a public footpath to reach a village, I thought horses where only supposed to use  bridleways, the path was in a complete mess where the horses hooves had turfed it up.


It’s usually the landowners that organise the hunt so I guess they can ride where they like on their own land although riding horses on the Public Rights of Way running across their land isn’t normally practiced apart from during a hunt – a sort of perk of the job I guess  :-\
 
Choose your topic titles carefully Walk666  ;D



Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: April on 18:45:25, 08/01/19
Just a thought April.  The Lake District landscape is the product of animal farming.  If we all went veggie/vegan, what would happen to the countryside?

Oh  :o I've not heard this argument before  :o

Well only about a dozen times  ;)

Everyone going veggie/vegan is extremely unlikely so this isn't anything I spend time worrying about. There are some who would like the "woolly locusts" removed from the fells so "re-wilding" can happen. This has already happened in parts of the Lakes with areas of land being fenced off to keep sheep out. There is an ongoing debate about the rights and wrongs of how the landscape should be managed, me being a veggie or vegan isn't going to make a difference to what happens to it.

Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: mananddog on 08:32:15, 09/01/19

Back to the OP. As has been mentioned, the landowner can permit access. However, the hunts around here do not give a toss for permission. A local wood I am involved in and 5000 acres  of land has repeatedly asked the local hunt NOT to hunt there. The whole area was minced up by the hunt which had obviously been surrounding the wood and besieging it - this is not the action of a drag hunt. If it was a drag hunt they could avoid all the areas they are asked to keep out of but they do not. Make your own conclusions as to what they are doing.


The hunt was in my village yesterday so I went walking well away from them. I used to be able to check where both the Quorn and the Cottesmore were hunting and avoid them but the meets section has gone off line and is only available on a password protected site. I have been caught up in them when out on my MTB and being suddenly surrounded by 20 skittish horses when your head is at the perfect height for a lashing hoof is not nice. I even got hit in the face by a horse whip, not on purpose, the guy was not paying attention as I tried to overtake him and get out of the way, but he did not apologise.



Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: phil1960 on 13:35:06, 09/01/19
Well said, both of you  :)
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: inthebagbud on 06:22:47, 25/01/19
Going back to the OP try this document by Natural England Out in the Country that explains the different rights of way 


????://publications.naturalengland.org.uk/publication/9027


Where I have put ???? replace with http as I cant post links


Happy reading
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: barewirewalker on 11:23:07, 25/01/19
There country people, who long have family histories with hunting and there those amongst them, who resent the urban interference as well as those, who accept the need to move to a more publicly acceptable form of hunting, with a more humane way of controlling the fox population. It will take several generations to settle these differences.

Would it be good for walking and other access dependent activities if hound packs were disbanded altogether, I have mentioned in my previous post the advantages to the equine industry that the type of riding hunting offers is a valuable country pursuit? (http://www.walkingforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=37785.msg536160#msg536160)

But what could an active hunting (drag) liaison between all access users provide? HUNTING WICKETS !!!!!! much in decline now as hunts are struggling to finance themselves but the product of a willing partnership between landowner and the hunts. These provided access between holdings where there would not be field gates and were a form of limited public access, providing the means for children and the less proficient rider to follow, because farm boundary hedges were a continuous obstruction.

How valuable a bridge between urban and country understanding is there here. I accept that continued monitoring of hunting will need to go on for decades, but will the actual total demise of the hunt structure within our countryside be good?



Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: roughyed on 20:50:32, 27/01/19
There country people, who long have family histories with hunting and there those amongst them, who resent the urban interference as well as those, who accept the need to move to a more publicly acceptable form of hunting, with a more humane way of controlling the fox population. It will take several generations to settle these differences.


If multiple hunts hadn't been caught rearing foxes with the sole intention of hunting them, then I'd have more sympathy with arguments of vermin control.  I mean why do drag hunts need terrier men?  Curious?
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: barewirewalker on 11:48:36, 29/01/19
The purpose of my post was to show that there is common ground between walking and hunting as both pursuits require access to the countryside. The traditional support for hunting will draw on people, who have a long family history and this will take generations to eradicate.

Rearing foxes for hunting suggest a shortage of foxes, with the polarization of arable and livestock, large areas are without any farm animals, which is not the situation where those farmers and stockmen are most concerned about the control of foxes.Hunting is a poor way of killing foxes but a good way to find foxes.

Walking in mid Wales I have met many farmers, who are avid fox hunters, but they hunt on foot. Here they are desperate to kill foxes because of lamb losses, during the lambing season on the hills. Question is; Is there a need to control foxes in certain areas and can that legitimately be carried out along side 'drag hunting'?
If the popular anti-hunt interference is too radical will it be counter productive in affecting access to our countryside?

After all this is a walking forum.
Title: Re: Boxing day hunt
Post by: phil1960 on 16:10:27, 29/01/19
I wasn’t going to comment further on this having said my piece, but BWW does make a valid point in farmers removing foxes out of genuine concern for lambs by doing it on foot. It’s the doing it for pleasure on horseback purely out of tradition that most people find abhorrent. Previously in this thread a toy or two got thrown out of the cot, but it’s an emotive issue and walkers do use the countryside too. I stand by original comment about drag hunting, but to answer BWW’s question, do I think anti hunt interference is too radical and may somehow affect walkers access, no on both counts.