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Main Boards => General Walking Discussion => Topic started by: barewirewalker on 11:09:56, 12/11/18

Title: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: barewirewalker on 11:09:56, 12/11/18
How many here could point to a a place on the map and say "I want to be able to walk there, but there is no legal access", then provide a cogent reason why they should be able to walk there, which can logically refute the notion of Private Land.

In fact should the Question be; I should be able walk there because............? For over ten years since I was verbally abuse by a landowner for being on a right of way, which offered me the best option to walk across Wales in a particular line, I have started to collect examples of how the Access network does not live up to the expectations of the leisure user and how these limitations could be corrected.
Or are my expectations beyond the realms of possibility?


When I was on a LAF (for 5 years) 2 policies for the future of the Access Network were published, one by the landowners' lobby group, the CLA and the other by a joint group of users made up of the British Mountaineering Council, Ramblers, British Horse Society and on. The CLA policy was not offered to our LAF for discussion, despite there being 2 active members on it. The Joint users policy was bought to the attention of the LAF.

My precis of the 2 policies was;
Landowners think it would be Common Sense to trim the Access Network, whereas the users' group favoured 'Demand Led Access' being allowed.

'Demand Led Access', sounds a sensible catch phrase but how is it to be implemented, or even how could demand be recognised?

Collect together a directory of improvements, to our footpath network? Surely experienced walkers could do this? How extensive would it be? If it turned out to be substantial would it be better than the standard protest forms that just collect names, would a varied list of valid reasons provided by a large group be more effective than a list of people supporting a general protest.

I have been thinking of bringing together all the bits of unnecessary restriction I feel when I go into the countryside and making it into a document for my old LAF, which goes under the grand title of Shropshires Great Outdoors Strategy Board, if all these groups had good suggestions in copious quantity would it work. Probably not.............but it would be on record.

I am sure my collection on it's own would just gather dust.

Has anyone else got examples, perhaps I might be able to match one for one.
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: Mel on 13:16:08, 12/11/18
How many here could point to a a place on the map and say "I want to be able to walk there, but there is no legal access", then provide a cogent reason why they should be able to walk there,


I can. Its on private land. Not a PRoW. Avoids a busy fast moving road. It has carpet over the barbed wire for access. The landowner is aware and turns a blind eye as no damage is being caused and they understand the reason people use the route. To apply for it to become a legal RoW would be expensive so why change something that already works perfectly well. Oh and its not marked as a permissive path either.
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: barewirewalker on 19:41:49, 12/11/18
Thanks Mel, but a map reference would be helpful and it is wonderful that there are such landowners with a sense of social responsibility.
That was not the case when I last tried to cross the road at the top Harley Bank, SJ 61239 00264. The A458 approaching Much Wenlock has no verges and barely wide enough for two heavy lorries on either side of the road. The RoW on the east side of the road puts the walker directly on the tarmack, with a 100m walk to the RoW on the other side, Though the danger is easily apparent, a suitable approach had been blocked off with barbed wire across the top of a locked gate that could create a direct route to make a safe crossing.

Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: Mel on 22:11:11, 12/11/18
No can do on the map ref I’m afraid.  It’s documenting such things “as evidence” that turn attitudes sour in my opinion - when “their kindness” is turned against them as “our right”.
 
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: barewirewalker on 13:54:52, 13/11/18
It is very sad that the concept of expanding on 'Demand Led Access' was not recognized as possible way to improve the freedom of countryside. Unfortunately little thought seemed to have been given to the process of recognizing demand.

Small tweaks to safety have a benefit to both parties; I think I have mentioned before that responsibility for safety is already a burden landowners have to share. A farmer, owner/occupier, I was a young farmer with, narrowly escaped a prison sentence due to a contractor's negligence, whilst working on his buildings, which caused the death of a worker.

Co-operation is always a better course than confrontation but facing up to problems and recognizing alternative courses of action is also better than the ostrich syndrome.

Because of the path that the Country Landowners' Association have chosen. It was their pursuit of 'Rights', triggered by the CRoW Act with open access and scaremongering that has caused much of the fear that Mel tries to avoid.

In the case of my example of a footpath Crossing an A road, the obstructions to the sensible and safer option seemed to coincide with the CLA's Access Adviser, publishing and encouraging steps to avoid RoWs being established.
By exploring 'Examples' further creative understanding can be developed. A chance meeting I had with a farmer 2 summers ago, made me realize how much there attitude is enhanced by looking at very large scale maps, 25inch per mile and never seeing the effect their sense of inconvenience actually fits in with broader picture as shown as the scale of the map is reduced.
If I were to post this map reference SJ 90018 26698, in Streetmap, what can anyone see? (http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=390018&y=326698&z=0&sv=SJ+90018+26698&st=5&mapp=map.srf&searchp=ids.srf) I see a potential asset wasted, 3.25 miles of cross country route that blindly ends on an A road and a possible use of very expensive infrastructure that could, for short distance of field margins, contribute to our countryside access.


Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: Mel on 18:35:42, 13/11/18
I actually don’t understand the point you are trying to make.  A RoW should be created just because you don’t want to walk on a busy road?
I still say you should channel your energies into access rights similar to what Scotland has, rather than fannying around at landowners / taxpayers expense trying to create RoWs that, for the most part, will never be walked just to link up some old historically functional but no longer practical path to a farmhouse that no longer exists.

Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: barewirewalker on 10:24:53, 14/11/18
I actually don’t understand the point you are trying to make.  A RoW should be created just because you don’t want to walk on a busy road?
Who wants to walk along a busy road and roads are not only becoming busier, but more dangerous. Only a year ago, we were preparing for a grand child's party and got a very tragic apology as one family pulled out at the last minute. One of the children's aunties had been killed whilst out jogging in the evenings, it coincided with this time of year when the clocks change.
The access network for those, who are prepared to study it, is almost completely based on the 'Snapshot in Time' created by the OS surveys between 1880 - 1940, with certain exceptions due to political bias in the 1950's and 60's.


Since it's creation, based on the Definitive Map, the access network has become valuable national asset; 

For social therapy,
Leisure Activity.Education.
Tourism.
Probably a lot more, but this from just one tired old brain. It also has been recorded as earning £100,000's per mile in places. Location may have a lot to do with the more successful parts, but another common factor is "Continuity of Way".
I still say you should channel your energies into access rights similar to what Scotland has, rather than fannying around at landowners / taxpayers expense

The Scottish Land reform Act of 2003 is probably the most effective way of sharing our countryside for leisure use, but is likely to happen. Certainly not without a lot of research and reasoned argument to persuade our legislators of the benefits. The Welsh assembly is looking at it, I wonder how much help the supporters of broadening open access are getting by people pointing to particular lines of pedestrian links or little used infrastructure that could open up good parts of restricted countryside.

trying to create RoWs that, for the most part, will never be walked just to link up some old historically functional but no longer practical path to a farmhouse that no longer exists.
Let us take one particular example, where I showed 11.5 square miles in Herefordshire without any RoWs. A lostway A-B to a disused rail station and another C-D from the other side. Route A-D would provide a considerable line of approach along a sightline from the top of the Malvern Hills to the Black Mountains to the only non Urban river bridge in a 20 mile stretch of the River Wye.


Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: Mel on 18:14:40, 14/11/18
Who wants to walk along a busy road and roads are not only becoming busier, but more dangerous.


Well nobody of course. But, with the invention of cars, roads became a more viable option for functional getting to and from A to B.  If it's not viable to create a path alongside a road then why would anyone spend the money on doing so just so a (p)leisure walker might someday walk it?



The access network for those, who are prepared to study it, is almost completely based on the 'Snapshot in Time' created by the OS surveys between 1880 - 1940, with certain exceptions due to political bias in the 1950's and 60's.




Exactly.  That's what it was based on. 



Since it's creation, based on the Definitive Map, the access network has become valuable national asset; 

For social therapy,
Leisure Activity.Education.
Tourism.




But again, there comes a financial point where creating every option of RoWs across land from A to B just is not viable.  Imagine that happened.  There'd still be someone who'd want to walk where a RoW was not.



A lostway A-B to a disused rail station and another C-D from the other side. Route A-D would provide a considerable line of approach along a sightline from the top of the Malvern Hills to the Black Mountains to the only non Urban river bridge in a 20 mile stretch of the River Wye.


My point exactly again.  A disused rail station.  It serves no function apart from historical interest perhaps.  So money isn't going to be spent on creating a RoW to it if it is not financially viable to do so.




It sounds like what you'd really like is access for everyone pretty much everywhere so let me introduce you, once again to the setup they've got in Scotland.  Surely it makes more sense to channel time and energy into campaigning and lobbying for something like that to be implemented in England rather than updating the Definitive Map with a few twiddly cost-ineffective footpaths in this ever-changing landscape.







Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: barewirewalker on 12:10:58, 15/11/18
Now I am totally confused. :D
I am all for an English equivalent of the Scottish Land Reform Act, but I very much doubt that there are any feasible arguments on the table to make it a realistic possibility.

Going back to my OP the offer to discuss the understanding of 'Demand Led Access' with the forum was more my intention. My home county is very poorly provided for in routes to cross, what is the largest inland landlocked county, the flagship route is a circular meander with a few spurs added on.
Now I have been a member of this forum for 12 years and there seems to be an increase in the interest of linear routes and multi-day linear routes, it seems to me that a more free attitude to the use of field margins for which the tax payer contributes to the landowner so that they do not come into cultivation.

And as a one time farm manager, the use of these (with understanding) causes no more interference with agricultural practice that do the ways that are RoW. Possibly less.
Actually the access network was based on directives from the 1949 Act. The choice for parishes to base them on the OS map probably made their job easier, and those opposed to the act on political bias had an even easier job leaving some off.

It is sad that the political purpose of the access network as created by the Definite map is not more recognised at this time of the year, as an epitaph for the sacrifices through 2 world wars that was supposed to give the people of this country the freedom of their countryside.
Those landowners who caused obviously viable parts off the network to be left off the DM went against the will of Parliament.




Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: pauldawes on 15:33:57, 15/11/18
You do wonder about public footpaths that mysteriously just end just short of another footpath, or just short of a lane (whatever) which if you just trespass say 50 yards form part of a good circular route (in general form a satisfying walk) but without that trespass leave you with no alternative but to turn round and walk back the way you've come.


There are certainly a few examples in areas I've walked in recent years when it's hard to doubt that at some point there was  an integrated route, but a short stretch of it has...for whatever reason..not made it into being recognised as a "public footpath".


It would be great...of course...if we could get a Scottish type system where we could wander as freely as possible, with emphasis being on walkers to not cause damage, or make unreasonable intrusions on privacy. But...I think we all deep down know BWW is right to suggest that is extremely unlikely...and some system of putting "pressure" on landowners to allow reasonable route extensions/ improvements would surely be better than present situation...where it appears there is more chance of an existing footpath being lost, than a new one granted.
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: richardh1905 on 16:31:40, 15/11/18
It sounds like what you'd really like is access for everyone pretty much everywhere so let me introduce you, once again to the setup they've got in Scotland.  Surely it makes more sense to channel time and energy into campaigning and lobbying for something like that to be implemented in England rather than updating the Definitive Map with a few twiddly cost-ineffective footpaths in this ever-changing landscape.



^ This


Not long back from a tough 8 mile walk, some of which was over farmland and trackless heather moorland - and to get on the hill I sneaked through someone's garden, as suggested by their neighbour!


People are just so much more relaxed about access in Scotland - England really needs to catch up, and this is where campaigning should be directed.
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: barewirewalker on 19:13:03, 15/11/18
You do wonder about public footpaths that mysteriously just end just short of another footpath, or just short of a lane
It was a young Rights of Officer, who explained the reasons for these sorts of anomalies to me probably nearly 15 years ago, he explained the political and circumstantial circumstances of the time in those postwar years and how they contributed to these nonsensical anomalies. I then realised how much I knew about this as I got pitched onto National Farmers Union County Executive at a very young age.

Very few people seem to realise that it is because landowners did not wish to allow reasonable access to our countryside that we have to have Rights of Way, ironical now as spend so much time bellyaching about them.This example here shown in Streetmap  (http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=347895&y=314134&z=0&sv=SJ+47895+14134&st=5&mapp=map.srf&searchp=ids.srf)a RoW footpath ends at a parish boundary, third bar up is the 1:25k OS map, which shows the black dotted line denoting a parish boundary. south of the boundary is one of the Shrewsbury Borough Council, the footpath enters a privately owned estate from the town, but that is where the RoW ceases, and that parish came under the authority of the then the Shrewsbury and Atcham Rural District Council, whose chairman was an Estate Agent known to act for at least 7 estate around the town, all with a incidence of RoW, which linked the town to the countryside. I found some correspondence line some years ago which linked this man to the Berwick estate, where the RoW ceases.
On Saturday I will be with a Lady, who will be celebrating her 100th birthday, she was the daughter of a tenant of that farm, and she remembers the owner of the estate, grandfather of present owners, insisting he had to keep the pathway open as it was a right of way. She remembers many people walking along it in the 1920's from a large house on the other side of the estate.

Not long back from a tough 8 mile walk, some of which was over farmland and trackless heather moorland - and to get on the hill I sneaked through someone's garden, as suggested by their neighbour!

I had a similar experience, having walked across 0.5mile steep field, to find an overly expressive array of privacy defence, a neighbour called out, "Just walk through his garden, he's at work all day, but don't come back this way, late afternoon when he is back. If he would unlock the field gate there would be no trouble for anyone."
Why the landowners lobby so hard against access, when the growth of the leisure industry is boosting the rural economy, is pure contrariness. PD is probably correct in thinking that they will be seeking to stop little used RoW. That is why they are desperate to get past 2026, without the full implications of the corruption of the Definitive Map becoming fully exposed.



Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: Mel on 19:34:36, 15/11/18
I can't help feeling that, BWW, you have a personal axe to grind.  You have been badly wronged at some time in your past and want revenge  :(   Would you be willing to share those events with us?



Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: barewirewalker on 12:35:51, 16/11/18
Now this is getting 'off topic', I think any disclosures I might make on Mel's psychologist's couch would not result in revealing a desire for vengeance. No, understanding is probably more the underlying motive and frustration. The three points MEL makes are so twisted off the points I was trying to lead a discussion into that I question my ability to convey my thoughts in understandable prose.


As I sit writing this I have noticed a pamphlet written by my father Titled 'The Land and the People', this was written for the NFU, it was not written by a landowner, but a tenant farmer. However there is a forward and part of it says;


There is much in it , with which people may not agree; this adds to it's value, for it will provoke discussion and create interest.

Our townsfolk out number our countryfolk by nine or ten to one.

Only a fraction of countryfolk depend directly for their livelihood upon the production of food, but the whole population consumes it, and naturally at naturally likes to get it as cheaply as possible.


This was written by Sir Anon(Bart). This was written in 1942, it goes on to express how the resources of land should be used in peacetime.


My Father dedicated the booklet to; All those who,by their works and their thoughts, are striving to build a better world from the ashes and destruction of the old.


If I had seen a fraction of that understanding in the CLA's policy on access but such was the level self interest it cross the border into selfishness I probably would not be so persistent in passing on words of warning.
I also refer back to my remarks about Access being a Epitaph to sacrifices made during 2 world wars.


A true outcome of the Stepping Forward Initiative would have been and admission by the landowning stakeholders for their predecessors part in the corruption of definitive map, an offer to make good and a national apology in the same spirit as the Duke of Devonshire has made because his ancestors caused the Kinver Mass Trespass.


If there is anyone, who would like to steer this topic back on course perhaps the suggestion that Pauldawes made might link a hopeful line of thought for improvements, if only speculatory, to our network of footpaths.


The need for the resource of our countryside that offers leisure needs to be shared with understanding.
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: pauldawes on 17:11:35, 16/11/18
Mention of the Duke of Devonshire...I think...makes it easy to use Chatsworth  estate as an example of how welcoming walkers in an appropriate manner can be profitable to the landowner himself/ herself as well as the walkers.


Not just in monetary terms..though clearly the estate does turn over useful money from its many visitors, but also in the joy gained by sharing ones good fortune (to have temporary custody of land) with others.



And I must admit that I was startled by Mel’s notion that a desire for revenge would be a likely motive for some one who cares deeply about improving rights of way.


I’ve come across just a handful of people who have put a significant amount of effort into that at local level (much to my surprise, I found out my father had engaged in voluminous correspondence on local rights of way when I tidied up some of his old papers).


In that admittedly limited sample, it’s always been clear that main driving force has been a love of rambling freely and a wish to see others share that joy more easily and widely.
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: Mel on 21:00:28, 16/11/18
I question my ability to convey my thoughts in understandable prose.


Perhaps this is why I got the impression you have an axe to grind. Obviously I got the wrong end of the stick there and it is simply me that is thick  O0



Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: ninthace on 10:27:53, 17/11/18
How many here could point to a a place on the map and say "I want to be able to walk there, but there is no legal access", then provide a cogent reason why they should be able to walk there, which can logically refute the notion of Private Land.

Has anyone else got examples, perhaps I might be able to match one for one.
Sorry but no, I can’t say that this has been an issue for me.  Paths that are not passable because they are not walked - yes. Paths obstructed by crop or dumped rubbish - yes.  Paths that don’t exist where I want them to be - no.
Is it perhaps an historic problem specific to your area?
In recent years my walking has been done in Snowdonia, Anglesey, Cumbria, North Lancs, North Yorks, Co Durham, Devon, Cornwall, W Somerset and S Dorset. Most of my routes are circular.
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: barewirewalker on 10:46:29, 17/11/18

 I got the wrong end of the stick    O0
Being of that generation that survived an education that used corporal punishment, I perhaps have a deeper understanding of the difference between the thin end and the thick end. Both have their uses and both leave different impressions,

Perhaps this is a great analogy for direction this topic is progressing;
It would be great...of course...if we could get a Scottish type system where we could wander as freely as possible, with emphasis being on walkers to not cause damage, or make unreasonable intrusions on privacy. But...I think we all deep down know BWW is right to suggest that is extremely unlikely...and some system of putting "pressure" on landowners to allow reasonable route extensions/ improvements would surely be better than present situation...where it appears there is more chance of an existing footpath being lost, than a new one granted.
I know Mel shy's away from expressions of conflict, but a stick is also a lever, the thick end and the thin end can be used to different purpose. If we leisure users of our countryside were to express how some seemingly little used ways could be made into more effective routes, then the thin end of the stick with persistent wiggling would open up a way so that the thick end, which matches the intellect of the landowner, would become more apparent.

There is a clue to my thinking in a link I left in my third post. I don't think I put an old farmhouse in the middle of the M6; now a farm access bridge, a roadside gate (shown on Google Earth) field margins either side of this access bridge, leading to a dual carriageway A road served with and extensive length of pavement seems to be such a coincidence of public infrastructure, that its a shame to waste the 3 or more miles of countryside RoW that leads in from the west.
Add to this, the rail line. Built in the 19th century, that bridge has a right of way over it, but the bridge over the motorway, built in the 20th century does not have a right of way over it.
What is the overall geography; A narrow gap of countyside between the Metropolitan areas of Stafford and Stoke, this is split by the urban area of Stone. Leaving 2 corridors of countryside of which this is the southern corridor.
I think this a travesty of planning, lacks imagination and there is a very simple answer, also cheap.
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: barewirewalker on 12:30:55, 17/11/18
Is it perhaps an historic problem specific to your area?
In recent years my walking has been done in Snowdonia, Anglesey, Cumbria, North Lancs, North Yorks, Co Durham, Devon, Cornwall, W Somerset and S Dorset. Most of my routes are circular.
I notice Shropshire, Cheshire and Herefordshire do not feature in your list, collectively they block the approach to the Welsh Marches. I suppose this observation may well be in the interest of the long distance walker, but it has also often foiled my attempts to exploit terrain.

 Often there are special places within an area, like mini AONB's, there were several on the farms I grew up on. I could write on them in greater detail, but they were often places the farmer would take his wife on a Sunday evening or the farm workmen would picnic on Bank Holidays with their families.
 As many once tenanted holdings have fallen back into the management of the overall landowner, these special locations have become trashed because they are not valued.  Often there are no ways to these places so how can they be valued even recognised by the rest of us.

Sadly much of the richness of our countryside will be lost forever
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: Andies on 13:05:31, 18/11/18
Living some distance from any substantial areas of Access Land, I'm reliant upon ROW to enjoy a decent walk away from roads, albeit I will struggle to do this even then without some road walking.

Access Scottish style would be great but I just don't see that happening in England. Farming and the landscape is significantly different in southern England in particular, and I haven't detected any real political or recreational will being displayed to ever make the Scottish style of access happen in England. So I suspect we are stuck with what we have.

There I think lies the problem BWW makes. When I walk I am often frustrated by the absence of a ROW, that leads to dangerous road walking, or just turning back to find a safer way. What adds to this frustration is when you see obvious routes with the usual "private" or "no right of way" signage that Suffolk landowners in particular seem to have a great liking for. Then if you really want to add to the frustration an examination of old maps shows many of these routes were previously marked as ROW.

What went wrong? I have increasingly come to the view that the creation of the definitive map was corrupted. Those in local government and particularly parish councils, often controlled by local landowners, chose to exercise their power to not record ROW post 1949.

How did they get away with it? People's life styles changed, cars took over as the primary form of local transport, and so ROW disappeared on the ground. Job done unless anyone so minded raised the issues, but I suspect all too often the same people that corrupted the map, thought to keep it corrupted.

In Suffolk many villages, usually those with big estates, didn't have a single ROW recorded until the tireless work of John Andrews who was the Ramblers local footpath officer took on the task of getting many ROW reinstated to the Definitive Map. Without his work it is difficult to see what would have happened. And the battle goes on to this day!

So why should we bother about this? For one it is part of our history, secondly it was corruption, thirdly it is our right to do so. It matters not to me if I am the only one, and it often seems that way, in my area that is bothered about these issues; I will try in my small way to protect what we have and get back what has been lost through corruption.

Am I wasting my time? Maybe to some but I believe I'm doing some good. There may come a time when it's not just me and Mrs A, and an occasional dog walker that uses many of the ROW near to me!


Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: jimbob on 17:23:10, 18/11/18
As a taxpayer  I support British  farming financislly a lot, at least as much as I do the NHS. Without subsidies most farmers would be either bankrupt or subsistence farmers. 

Therfore I believe we have every right to expect our Government to give us English the same rights as the Scottish (and soon Welsh). In fact it should be made compulsory for those receiving subsidies to do so.

In the mean time I walk where I want ROW or not. I do no damage nor do I invade anyone's right to a bit of privacy. Since tresspass is in the main a civil offence I see little  risk in do doing as the court case would cost the landowners hell of a lot more than it would be worth.


Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: barewirewalker on 12:16:38, 19/11/18
Thanks Pauldawes and Richardh1905 for your support on the previous page, the public apology the Duke of Devonshire made only came to my notice in reading the Country Walking Magazine in the local library, perhaps the rarer bits of useful knowledge I have ever gleaned from it's pages, as I sensed that their editorial is firmly in the camp of appeasement to the extent that even moderate criticism will upset the status quo.

Thanks to Andies for your support, you and Paul have so often come to my rescue when I feel that I am labouring against a current of indifference.

Ninthace makes a welcome suggestion as to why some may not see this problem as clearly as others.

Jimbob's point that we all pay the money that goes to into the pot from which Single Farm Supplements are paid is only half of it, as customers we also provide the farmer with his income. Trouble with SFSs, they often go into the pocket of the larger landowner. The Landowner is really, as a collective group, are Nouveau Farmers and sadly slow to pick up on the realisation that they and their historic attitude to the occupation of our countryside can conflict with the necessary good relationship between 'food producers' and their customers.

As a once active member of the National Farmer's Union I find myself saying WHY to exhortations to support British Farming, and I have to think deeply that it is the attitudes of the property owner and the freeholder, which is making me question a loyalty that goes back generations in my family, where a grandfather was a founder member of the NFU.
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: Andies on 12:52:36, 19/11/18
In the mean time I walk where I want ROW or not. I do no damage nor do I invade anyone's right to a bit of privacy. Since tresspass is in the main a civil offence I see little  risk in do doing as the court case would cost the landowners hell of a lot more than it would be worth.

Totally agree and do so myself. Unfortunately the odd confrontation has resulted over the years, which Mrs A in particular doesn't like, and I would much rather avoid!

A couple of amusing examples come to mind:

1. Walking along a very narrow country lane with hedge rows right to the sides with no verges, I decided to walk along the headland of the field beside the lane, which was entirely setaside to grass cover, and had been for some years. Unfortunately as we walked along a dog walker appeared who turned out to be the landowners wife. I knew we were in trouble when greeted with the "can I help you", shortly followed by the "your trespassing statement". I explained very politely why we were where we were, but we were still told to get off ASAP with a lecture about dogs and wildlife, albeit we had no dog with us! This was all the more funny as the landowner was vice chairman of Suffolk's Local Access Forum. I did however get some subsequent pleasure in checking all the ROW on the landowners property and then submitting multiple reports to Suffolk CC of all the missing signposts, waymarkers and other issues. These were all subsequently dealt with, and I am especially pleased with the signs for ROW near the farmhouse.

2. Whilst walking in a nearby wood on ROW's, I decided rather than retracing my steps that I would use the wide headland around the wood to get back. Unfortunately a farm worker spotted us and charged over in a massive tractor. He wanted to know what we were doing and why we were there. I explained we were just walking along the headland etc, but was then given a lecture about this headland being for wildlife which we would have disturbed and damaged. His argument subsided somewhat when I pointed out he had just driven goodness knows how many tons of tractor along the same headland, and that with due respect my boots weren't quite so damaging!

Both examples I think demonstrate the entrenched views of the landowners that it seems can even extend to their servants. They struggle to share and always will, unless forced by government. They cannot resist the temptation to destroy signage and seem to delight in obstructing and failing to reinstate ROW after cultivation. Our ROW Departments are under resourced and struggle to do even the basics. As a ROW Officier told me last week: " waymarking is no longer a priority and we encourage volunteers through parish councils to take this on"; some hope round here!
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: pauldawes on 14:44:48, 19/11/18

Both examples I think demonstrate the entrenched views of the landowners that it seems can even extend to their servants. They struggle to share and always will, unless forced by government. They cannot resist the temptation to destroy signage and seem to delight in obstructing and failing to reinstate ROW after cultivation. Our ROW Departments are under resourced and struggle to do even the basics. As a ROW Officier told me last week: " waymarking is no longer a priority and we encourage volunteers through parish councils to take this on"; some hope round here!


The damage to signage is one that I genuinely struggle to understand, I'd have thought well maintained signs benefit landowner and farmer just as much as walker. Many a time I've blundered across wrong pieces of farmland because signs have been damaged or removed.


Maybe some do "calculation" that absence of ROW signs will stop walkers completely, rather than increase "blunder rate"?


Like BBW I've often wondered why issue doesn't arouse more interest on these boards...and have often speculated if its because most walkers here strongly prefer "open access" walks (e.g. moorland or mountain walking with wide sweeping views and fairly few fences, field boundaries, etc), rather than fairly intensely farmed areas, passing through farmyards, etc.
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: barewirewalker on 16:04:06, 19/11/18
Walking along a very narrow country lane with hedge rows right to the sides with no verges, I decided to walk along the headland of the field beside the lane, which was entirely setaside to grass cover, and had been for some years.
There are numerous precedents that show historically the social need for a deviation such as you took was allowed, and these precedents can be seen on today's OS maps, not just the old OS sheets pre-1940.SO 38822 41303is just such a one. If you look at it in the 1:25k OS as shown here;  (http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=338822&y=241303&z=0&sv=SO+38822+41303&st=5&mapp=map.srf&searchp=ids.srf)You will see a RoW join the lane, but a grey FP over the hedgerow in the field margin, this deviation in the route of the overall way has been mapped as far back as the 1880's, if my memory serves me right.

If you open up Google Earth, zoom in on the British Isles and ADD (in tool bar) a placemark, say in the North Sea, then replace the longitude and latitude with;
52° 4'1.90"N
2°53'47.08"W
Then zoom in and add another placemark, correct it to;
52° 3'57.36"N
2°53'28.85"W
You should have a placemark at either end of the stretch of road where pedestrian traffic historically walked the field headland / field margin.

If you now go into street view in GE, you should see the reason why. The field level is substantially higher than that of the road surface even though it has been metalled. Imagine back in time before hard surface, when a pair working boots was the norm and women wore leather shoes and long skirts. With a lane full of muddy water especially on market days following flocks of sheep or herds of cattle; of course they chose an alternative route. If you then look the length and direction of the off road routes that join this road, it is possible to judge the strength of way. So are the local landowners going to risk public displeasure by shutting of these footpaths.
Actually this example is only 1.6 miles as the crow flies from the home of Harry Cotterell the landowner, who was president of the CLA when they published their policy on access.
The fact that modern day traffic has taken the place of water, mud and livestock has failed to sink into their privilege atrophied brains. They created an access policy without bothering to learning about the history of the DM and without looking at any maps to see what it tells about the ways walked in the past, and applying those lessons to social changes of today.


Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: gunwharfman on 16:57:12, 19/11/18
Its been my experience that 'territory nutters', the Mr and Mrs Bouquet's of this world, can exist everywhere! I know of two people for example. who live on a basic Wimpy type urban sprawl housing estate in Windsor can get really irate and in a fluster if they feel that 'their land' has been invaded by the odd ball, a child touching 'their blades of grass' at the pavement edge and so on. I was on the Cotswold Way a few years ago and sat down on a small patch of grass to eat a sandwich, with my feet resting on the tarmac road when some bloke came out and started to rant that I should move away because my bum was on 'his' grass! I told him to sue me! In Maidstone my sister also knows of people who have very similar attitudes. In France this year one old chap even threatened to set three dogs on me if I walked any further up 'his' lane! I didn't fancy that so I turned around, walked 20 yds back and then walked across a field to get to the footpath I was looking for. I hoped it was his field, not sure if it was?

I can't say that I've had any real problems with actual farmers but I'm sure it will happen some day! Unless they have dogs or a shotgun to hand I'm sure I will just tell them to 'eff off. I don't normally swear but its tempting sometimes!
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: jimbob on 17:42:05, 19/11/18
Its been my experience that 'territory nutters', the Mr and Mrs Bouquet's of this world, can exist everywhere!

Unless they have dogs or a shotgun to hand I'm sure I will just tell them to 'eff off. I don't normally swear but its tempting sometimes!
O0 O0 O0 Man after my own heart. :)

Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: ninthace on 18:27:51, 19/11/18
I have only had one confrontation - I was exploring the moors to the west of the Nine Standards and tried cutting across a small island of private land with a house on it in the middle of Open Access Land.  A man appeared and invited me to walk back down the track I had just come up.  I played the innocent pleading ignorance but he was having none of it and followed me back in his Land Rover to make sure I left the way I came.  I went round on the moor instead which was a more direct route anyway albeit a bit boggier.  No skin off my nose really but a lift back to the cattle grid would have been nice.


Conversely, in Weardale I walked a footpath that went up someone's drive, past their back door and out across their back lawn without a problem.  In Mallerstang, I walked a path that went right across someone's front garden; the owner was in the garden and said he was happy to see me as I was the first person he had spoken to in weeks.  In Devon I followed a path that went up a house drive and out across a field; the owner pointed out the line of the path for me.  He also told me that  in the previous year the Council had replaced the bridge across the steam at the bottom of the field and as far as he knew, we were the first people to use it.
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: barewirewalker on 09:47:31, 20/11/18
In Mallerstang, I walked a path that went right across someone's front garden; the owner was in the garden and said he was happy to see me as I was the first person he had spoken to in weeks.
The rare meeting in the countryside, where a local greets you with this attitude, is a reminder of the fundamental and historic reasons that are the core of the access network, communication.

In today's culture, isolationism to block off all interruption to electronic communication is considered normal practice. It is the footpaths themselves that have shown me, perhaps reminded me of the people, who once used the footpaths we now use for our leisure. The doctor visiting an outlying cottage to treat a patient, the local vicar ministering to his parishioners, neighbours sharing news or just friendship, the local midwife being summoned at all hours of the day and night, do I need to dig into my memory more, to show that there are a myriad of reasons that the network of footpaths and bridleways were an essential part of yesterday's society? The need for that network is different today, but equally diverse.

I read in the landowners' propaganda that our network of footpaths is made up of 'shortcuts and ways to work of yesteryear', not suited for leisure walking. But those are the ways we are allowed into our countryside.

In a topic I started  Two High Bridges, some Elephant Grass and Adventure, (http://www.walkingforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=37342.0) Mrs BWW and I found a fascinating stretch footpath, dangling as if in mid air, totally uselessly in a glorious stretch countryside, this little length of RoW can link to two magnificent structures, imposing reminders of another age. This is the sort of infrastructure that should be linked into the access network.

Is it possible? Using Googe Earth it is apparent that field margins and gates largely provided a continuation of way to other rights of way. Is this a tragic waste of valuable resources?
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: pleb on 10:04:45, 20/11/18



 In Mallerstang, I walked a path that went right across someone's front garden; the owner was in the garden and said he was happy to see me as I was the first person he had spoken to in weeks.  In Devon I followed a path that went up a house drive and out across a field; the owner pointed out the line of the path for me.  He also told me that  in the previous year the Council had replaced the bridge across the steam at the bottom of the field and as far as he knew, we were the first people to use it.

I may have walked the same, about 3/4 years ago, middle aged woman was it? She was chatty and told me which way to go.
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: ninthace on 12:00:15, 20/11/18
I may have walked the same, about 3/4 years ago, middle aged woman was it? She was chatty and told me which way to go.
There's a clue in the sentence  :)
..... In Mallerstang, I walked a path that went right across someone's front garden; the owner was in the garden and said he was happy to see me as I was the first person he had spoken to in weeks.
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: Andies on 12:58:05, 20/11/18
I read in the landowners' propaganda that our network of footpaths is made up of 'shortcuts and ways to work of yesteryear', not suited for leisure walking. But those are the ways we are allowed into our countryside.

Yes the much peddled argument. It has some limited truth but is far to simplistic to explain the ROW network that we have been left with. People used "rights of way" in addition to the road network as walking was the norm for the majority, especially when life was more community based. So many paths in particular were about not just getting to work, but importantly getting to church, the public house, or to exercise some leisure activity. Obviously people took the easiest and most functional route, it was accepted. My own father talks of just walking where they needed to go in the village. It was accepted that people had a "right" to walk there way before the concept of a right of way that we have today.

Society has changed, and the few of us interested in these rights of way, are left with the bits that actually made in onto the definitive map. It is frustrating to see on the ground, on maps new and old, just what didn't survive the corrupted process post 1949.

The petty minded greed of some landowners to obstruct and avoid their obligations with regard to ROW is so disappointing. I applaud anyone who works to restore ROW that corruption of the definitive map stole from the nation, and in my own small way try to work the system to defend what we have against the odds, with under funded Rights of Way Departments, and the CLA's inspired desire for us to "get off their land".

Well I'm not going away, in fact, I'm probably coming back next week to check those rights of way again ;D
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: barewirewalker on 10:46:22, 21/11/18
Yes the much peddled argument. It has some limited truth but is far to simplistic to explain the ROW network that we have been left with. People used "rights of way" in addition to the road network as walking was the norm for the majority, especially when life was more community based. So many paths in particular were about not just getting to work, but importantly getting to church, the public house, or to exercise some leisure activity. Obviously people took the easiest and most functional route, it was accepted.
Certainly glad your not going away.
There one type of route not on your list, one that I suspect is rarely if ever recognized. Only through my local knowledge did I first recognize it and then started to see this type of route and the pattern of it elsewhere and in many places. I call it the 'Market Day' route, they start well out in the countryside and zero in on a county town or historic commercial center.

The number of tributaries can indicate 'strength of way' and I believe a strong circumstantial argument for a missing section being part of a right of way. If the corruption of the definitive map were recognized then such circumstantial evidence may be considered strong enough to add to appeals for reinstatement of lostways at Public Enquires or even go so far to bridge the need for them.
I also believe that the future potential, by adding new sections to weak lines of way, should be argued for.

At a family gathering yesterday I spoke at length with a dairy farmer from Worcestshire, the trouble is the intellectual barrier I could not get through was a multitude of instances of public misbehaviour, high on the list was the quality dog ownership.
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: Innominate Man on 00:28:36, 22/11/18
In a very, very small way I have seen a pretty shoddy example of manipulation of 'position' by a land owner, which on such a small scale indicates how widespread the corruption on the bigger scale can come about.
This involved a family owning land with one of the members being in a position of authority & influence 'locally'. To keep this brief - footpaths were cleared and RoW were maintained as well as a degree of tolerance with people going 'off route'.
Some land became ripe for development and plans submitted .......... everything was very amicable until such time as planning permission was granted.
Now, the situation is quite different.
The land sold to a developer, the original owner no doubt pocketing a substantial sum and faded off the scene.
Very quickly afterwards the vegetation is left overgrown and any opportunity to shout at anyone (even supposed 'friends' of old) even slightly off route, is taken.
Apologies if this is all quite vague - I am sure you can fill in the blanks.
Bottom line is ' while I want a favour from you, the old - you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours ' existed: Once the favour was done, the situation turned to 'you can scratch my back, but I'll [censored] up yours'  came into play.
When I think of this on a bigger scale, it makes me realise the whole system stinks.
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: barewirewalker on 11:40:27, 22/11/18
In a very, very small way I have seen a pretty shoddy example of manipulation of 'position' by a land owner, which on such a small scale indicates how widespread the corruption on the bigger scale can come about.
Having told the story of Gordon Miller, agent for Lady Berwick and his legacy, as local authority officer, which has cut off a county town from much of it's surrounding countryside, I won't jump strait in and repeat it. It is interesting as one pokes around in the manure heap of local politics, the whiffs of corruption that suddenly erupt.

Perhaps 10 years ago, maybe more, I was walking in Devon, near Aveton Gifford, Mrs BWW and I were enjoying a particularly attractive valley, typical to the local terrain, when we came to a property, straddling the valley on our side of that valley. It was clearly an old converted mill, that once would have drawn it's power from the river and the mill's customers would use the ways to it over many centuries. This is an example where a property owner, who is fortunate enough to secure a home in a beautiful part of our countryside needs to balance their wish for privacy with the common interest.

There are many locations throughout the country where such anomalies exist and it is very difficult to get a Right of Way diverted in such a case. What surprised me was a massive 'Privacy Zig Zag', that yanked this historic way up through 4 maybe 6 contours lines to a field margin well above the level of the roof of the property, a few yards along a field margin the down the other side of it. Making an attractive and gentle stroll into a feat of hill climbing. To make this even worse, a simple addition of a bit of field margin would have added another feature to this diversion. This did not bother Mrs BWW and I at the time but might challenge me over a decade later with a heart attack in the bag. (Fortunately the stent is keeping me active).

If I could locate that property I would have provided a map ref. seems to escape me for the moment, but as the years have rolled by I have been able flesh out this example. Reading CLA publications I learnt that that landowner's lobby group had replaced a long standing professional adviser on access matters. I had read a few articles of his, and a phrase that sticks in my mind is, in order reach an understanding with users of the access network landowners might have to, "Give away more than they take." My guess is that this individual was trained and worked as a Land Agent.

The above phrase popped up in one of Harry Cotterell's articles the year he was Vice President of the CLA, but by the time he became President, the tone had changed, 'giving anything away' had disappeared, as he struggled with his 'Common Sense Approach' to access. The position of access adviser had been taken by lawyer, Sarah Slade, a profession probably not so familiar with history of access. I think the land agent was more familiar with the reasons behind the corruption of the definitive map and a lawyer is of a profession that works at dissembling the truth.

 At the time I was on Shropshire's LAF and during a meeting I was sitting next to one of the equestrian delegates, who had worked on the Stepping Forward Initiative, as a landowner expounded a particularly selfish bit of logic, I muttered under my breath, "Straight from the Gospel of Sarah Slade". To which I got a nudge and this comment, "I know her, been on committee with, she is rabid anti access". We later agreed that she fitted the part of Cruella DaVille of the countryside, instead of stealing puppies, she manipulates the privileged to steal the countryside from ordinary folk.


Since that exchange I have stumbled across references to this lawyer, pinpointed her location, which is Devon, where she was on that counties LAF and would not be surprised on other bodies, where she can further the cause of landowner interests, but that is probably enough to explain such great privacy zig zag and has given some sense to it.

It was this chain of events that led me suspect that the CLA are well aware of the corruption of the definitive map and has led me to think that there is an active policy to take over the chairs of LAF's pre 2026, so as to ensure covering up any exposure and limiting any publicity on the full extent of the damage to our access network.
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: ninthace on 12:28:20, 22/11/18
From your description: Ashford Mill SX 68773 48265


Edited to add.  If I am right there is no indication of a path beyond the mill on the 1842 tithe map.
http://www.ag-project.co.uk/userfiles/file/map10.jpg
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: Innominate Man on 12:50:55, 22/11/18
For my part, I joined a local 'Statutory Body' - if that is the right phrase/description.
I did so in response to a local landowner attempting to build on so called protected land.
A few years later I realise I am fighting an incoming tide and have made little if no difference: I had hoped to make changes from within.
Now disillusioned I am considering leaving, but that smacks of giving up and I don't want to do that either. A moral dilemma.
Needless to say, following an appeal the Government appointed Inspector overturned the original planning refusal and granted permission for building to go-ahead.
I have absolutely no faith in the independence of these Govt. appointed Inspectors. They seem to be there to do nothing more than ensure the Govt. policies are enabled.
Similarly to your case - the wealthy owner enlisted the services of a consultant who has a track record in getting previously rejected applications passed.
I appreciate RoW and building development are different matters, but essentially it comes down to robbing the ordinary folk of their previously protected rural spaces for recreational amenity.
I may emigrate to New Zealand  ;D
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: ninthace on 13:03:37, 22/11/18

I may emigrate to New Zealand  ;D


Yes - they have never heard of public rights of way there so you will be starting with a blank canvas(s)!


I sympathise with your fight with the planners.  There is a solicitor somewhere in Cumbria who hates me as I have twice successfully blocked his attempts to build houses on a field with a ROW across it.  It is a battle that will eventually be lost as the field is still earmarked for housing in the Local Plan but I have managed to get any development on that site written in towards the end of the Plan in 2032.
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: barewirewalker on 13:57:14, 22/11/18

Yes - they have never heard of public rights of way there so you will be starting with a blank canvas(s)!
Except the Queen's Chain. (https://www.walkingaccess.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/2011-12-13-NZWACFactsheet9-Access-along-rivers-lakes-and-the-coast-for-web.pdf)

And thanks for the Map ref. will check it out.
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: ninthace on 14:07:23, 22/11/18
Except the Queen's Chain. (https://www.walkingaccess.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/2011-12-13-NZWACFactsheet9-Access-along-rivers-lakes-and-the-coast-for-web.pdf)



Yes I knew about that.  There is I believe also a small strip alongside any public highway but as far as I can tell, while they have recognised hiking trails, there is no equivalent of our network of public footpaths and bridleways.  Looks like its national parks, beaches, some rivers and roads only.
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: Andies on 15:23:14, 22/11/18
It is always interesting to hear from others about their struggles against the system. My own frustration with Suffolk CC Rights of Way Department got the better of me a few days ago, and I probably wasted another half an hour of walking time to email Suffolk's Local Access Forum.

In particular, I have been pursuing on and off over the past five, yes five years, an issue surrounding an obstructed footpath in a nearby village. The landowner uses the field the footpath crosses, next to some farm buildings, for horses and has erected various fences, most with electric fencing added, has locked gates, all the waymarking has disappeared, and there are numerous internal fences within the field sub-dividing it. It would be pointless my elaborating here on my various attempts to resolve this over the years, but the matter rubbles on and I'm very disappointed with Suffolk's ROW Department.

This coupled with the issue of a recently (February 2018) created footpath in another nearby village after a long battle over almost 40 years to get it established; after which the Council are now doing nothing (it seems) to signpost or ensure this footpath is actually marked on the ground by the respective landowners, who obviously given the forty year battle don't want it there!

Anyway frustration took over and I have emailed the Local Access Forum. My basic question was: given my experiences of often not being able to get basic issues such as signage, obstructions, path reinstatement after cultivation, dealt with in my experience after years of chasing the Rights of Way Department; what oversight does the LAF have over the Departments performance. I pointed out that the minutes of their quarterly meetings seemed to focus on issues such as the Coastal Path and Network Rails level crossing closure plans, which are of course important; but there never seemed to be anything about the basics? If the basics aren't happening then there is something wrong in my opinion?

I doubt I will even get a response, and I suspect if I do it will just be some clever politically correct one; but I thought I would try and see if there was any real concern for my issues!

BWW I know was once a party to one of these LAF's and I wonder if he feels I'm wasting my time? Are they actually concerned with the bread and butter issues, or are they just a politically correct box ticking forum, that I fear gets dominated by the usual "ruling" types who know better than us?
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: sussamb on 15:41:27, 22/11/18
I had the same issue in Sussex and was told that nothing could be done about electric fences etc that had blocked a ROW for over 10 years, demolishing stiles in the process. These too were erected to create paddocks for horses and the landowner had created an unofficial diversion around the area.  I went down the route of issuing what is known as a Form 1 etc, and got the path, stiles etc reinstated. Details are here and costs nothing to issue but a bit of time. 


https://www.ramblers.org.uk/advice/improve-the-path-network/how-to-get-an-obstruction-removed.aspx (https://www.ramblers.org.uk/advice/improve-the-path-network/how-to-get-an-obstruction-removed.aspx)
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: ninthace on 16:03:59, 22/11/18
They are not all bad.  One of my neighbours has an LDP across her land.  In the past she approached the authority to cut back an overgrown hedge but was told there was no budget so now she has the work done annually at her own expense.
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: barewirewalker on 17:42:59, 22/11/18
BWW I know was once a party to one of these LAF's and I wonder if he feels I'm wasting my time? Are they actually concerned with the bread and butter issues, or are they just a politically correct box ticking forum, that I fear gets dominated by the usual "ruling" types who know better than us?
As a member of a LAF I was disappointed at the amount of direct reaction we had from the users of the access network. I got on when they were trying to find people to fill the places, I am not a member of any organization and it was this excuse the Landowner, who took over the chair, chucked me off post haste. He bought in a stooge to fill his place on the LAF whilst in the chair, then vacated the chair and his stooge took it over. I am not overly concerned that I am no longer a member of a LAF, but I do worry that younger people are taking for granted the good will that they expect to come from their public bodies.

A Local Access Forum or the grander titles the have used to disguise there purpose, are a board made up of users and occupiers of the countryside. Any issue that a member may get onto the agenda of a meeting is subject to the scrutiny and discussion of all members and minuted. The advice of a LAF is supposed to go through to the full council, as it was set up as a statutory advisory body. So if you think that issues are not being dealt with or being bought to the attention of the council, you should bring this to the attention of a Councillor, who might be sympathetic or even send your complaints to the Portfolio holder, who is
supposed to attend LAF meetings.

If there is one thing that I may have contributed to the debate, is to try to get access users to identify between the two identities of farmer and landowner. Even an owner/occupiers should be aware how their occupation of the countryside is affected by their attitude to property or production.

My advice would be to send copies of any issues you might take up with a LAF to both the NFU regional secretary and the local CLA office. Both organizations are very conscious of public image.

Farmers need the good opinion of the British public, landowners are doing the best to despoil a well earned good reputation, but they also need grass roots membership as the historic veto in the House of Lords has disappeared.

If only the BMC and the Ramblers would really understand the value of exposing the 'Corruption of the Definitive Map', this would [censored] the bubble of landowners arrogance, cause a loss of face and might get the powers that be realize the access network is a valuable asset, worth investing in.

OH dear, using a pin to burst a bubble is bad language
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: Andies on 12:01:22, 23/11/18
My frustration is that the ROW Department often seems unable to do the basics. The individuals you deal with seem to make the right responses, but then everything goes quiet, so you chase again, then nothing; and then you repeat in a few months when you decide to try again........by which time there's a different ROW Officer, who knows nothing about it, so you explain again etc.......

Hence my question to the LAF: what are they doing to monitor the performance or not of the ROW Department? If the basics aren't being done what hope for anything else?

I firmly believe that there aren't the resources for ROW anymore, if indeed there ever was?

If the LAF isn't checking up on them, who is?

Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: barewirewalker on 15:07:01, 23/11/18
My frustration is that the ROW Department often seems unable to do the basics. The individuals you deal with seem to make the right responses, but then everything goes quiet, so you chase again, then nothing; and then you repeat in a few months when you decide to try again........by which time there's a different ROW Officer, who knows nothing about it, so you explain again etc.......

Hence my question to the LAF: what are they doing to monitor the performance or not of the ROW Department? If the basics aren't being done what hope for anything else?

I firmly believe that there aren't the resources for ROW anymore, if indeed there ever was?

If the LAF isn't checking up on them, who is?
I think the problem with LAFs, apart from the main council not taking them too seriously, is they only have 4 meetings a year. I sent a complaint about maize grown over a footpath to the Cheshire LAF, I got a snotty reply that this was a matter for RoW dept. /send in a formal complaint /no further action/standard procedure. Reason; LAFs deals with overall strategy and policy, despite my have written in a substantial amount of fact that would be fuel for a strategy and policy discussion.

Force of numbers are probably the only real wake up, but sadly the apathy of the 'don't upset the apple cart brigade' will probably win through.

I like to fantasize about real access and have fun putting into operation those small parts I can bring together. When I see an instance; is it worth discussing? Perhaps the 'Privacy ZigZag' I thought was a re-route was a case of getting it wrong, Ninthace's local knowledge makes me question that my 10+ year ago memory of a notice at Ashford Mill. But I have seen too many closures with Cruella DeVille/slades modus operandi on it withdraw any further.

A very active former member of the Rambler's Forum, who transfered here, Histman was doing a walk from the Wash to the Welsh coast. He described a nightmare section of footpath hopping the tops of potato furrows, on a section through Shropshire I went to check, this and found the field being harvested.I walked across the field the section of the crop, where the footpath should have been had the harvester working, so a walked down the cleared/harvested part of the field.
I was half way across the field, when a range rover comes speeding across towards me, with farmer full of the news supplied by his tractor driver that I was not on the Right of Way. Instead of telling his tractor driver that I was doing the sensible thing in avoiding the working machinery, he thinks to show off to his staff and give me a ticking off.
Instead I told him I knew he had not made good the footpath through his crop, this he denied though it was an obvious lie. So I went on to tell him I knew his father, a better farmer than him, he said could not, because his father had been dead for over 20 years, so I described how I had stood in the farmyard, whist buying a straight 8 engine out of an old Massey combine whilst 2 snotty nosed brats ran around the yard. I then suggested another route for myself to walk, he was too surprised to say no, so his tractor driver then saw me walking 'Off Piste' across the rest of the field and over another, to a newly built footbridge that should have been included in the access network.
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: barewirewalker on 11:33:11, 25/11/18
Should 2 words conjure up a sense of distaste, the words 'Lord Newborough' were enough to put me off the steak in a favorite local pub turned gastro pub some years ago. I had been exploring some possible X Wales routes and came up against The Rhug Estate near Corwen. I was new to the internet then, being a late comer to things IT, but I found out enough to learn that I was not the only one to be inconvenienced by this particular countryside hog. Others were being harassed by his gamekeepers, when trying to reach a trig point or was it a Nuthall or Marylin, not too familiar with peak baggers objectives, I forget now as I turned my attention to the Wayfarer's Gap further south.

So now I am exploring a route from 2 High Bridges over a Shropshire Canal, infrastructure without rights of way over them, which, I believe, have the position to draw long distances of walking away from the highway network. Using Memory Map and Google Earth, plotting gates and field margins and joining up RoWs and having to avoid those legitimate X zones such as Open Prisons and RAF Stations, I come to Peplow Hall, potentially the only non-highway crossing of the River Tern in a 10 miles stretch from it's source. With an Off highway RoW approach to it from either side to suggest it had wider community use. So I googled Peplow Hall, family seat of one Lord Newborough; (https://www.countrylife.co.uk/property/country-houses-for-sale-and-property-news/an-historic-estate-in-shropshire-1700)
Quote
One of three family estates owned and run by Lord Newborough- the other two being the 12,500-acre Rhug estate in Denbighshire and the Glynllifon estate in Gwynedd-Peplow has been his family home for the past 30 years and its impeccably managed farmland is an intrinsic part of the fast-growing, 7,000-acre Rhug Organic Farm business that, last year, earned him the title of Farmers Weekly Diversification Farmer of the Year.Shaking off the jetlag from a recent trip to the Far East, where he regularly promotes sales of the farms’ wide range of organic produce-from beef, wild bison and lamb to chicken, pork and organic fodder-Lord Newborough sets off on a tour of the hall and its grounds, where efficiency and ease of maintenance are clear guiding principles.

Give him credit, he works hard at getting Farmer's Weekly Diversification Farmer of the of the year award, but he seems pretty adept at ensuring others cannot diversify from the countryside asset of access.
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: barewirewalker on 12:04:50, 26/11/18
I am thinking of awarding the Greedy Countryside Hog award to this location (http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=363993&y=324833&z=115&sv=363993,324833&st=4&ar=y&mapp=map.srf&searchp=ids.srf&dn=571&ax=363993&ay=324833&lm=0) and Lord Newborough, just found a great piece of clip art, which would be great to adorn my decorative maps of corruption, looks great in a slide show, though I think I might get thrown off the internet if I made it public.  ;D

Tried to put the share link to here; https://www.shutterstock.com/image-vector/pig-bathing-mud-vector-clip-art-591456926

But this is the best I can do. Looks great pasted over a screen shot off Google Earth.
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: barewirewalker on 12:20:32, 30/11/18
Gunwharfman triggered a memory in another topic (http://), there is a lot we have forgotten about the countryside and the fact that I have some close ties with a disappearing era is perhaps more of a reason why lostways hold such a fascination.
In studying lostways I have started to realise that these ways on there own are not the main issue, it is the reason why they were used, which provides the link to how the modern day access network should be allowed to develop.

Landowners did not know of the movement of people through the countryside, why did those Gypsies appear in that lane every year at that time of year. They had been coming there long before sugar beet and hoeing of this crop was a reason. I have suddenly realised it was because of the location of that 'green lane' and it's position in a more hidden network of ways, which the definitive map has only partially captured.
If we bring into the equation of social need for 'tramping', not as result of a class of people being outcaste but all people needing this link with the countryside tohave a chance of fitness and sanity, then we might start to understand how the ownership of property has to recognised its position in the dynamic of the countryside.
Title: Re: I want to walk there..........and why?
Post by: barewirewalker on 12:21:31, 02/12/18
The original experience that brought the title of this topic to mind was walking under a very high bridge over a canal (http://www.walkingforum.co.uk/walking under a very high bridge over a canal), unlike many canal bridges this one did not have a linking path from the towpath below to the way on the top. Curiosity led to another walk involving some straying from the righteous way to find out to find out what was above.


Somewhere earlier in this topic I have used the phrase 'drawing the the access network away from the highway', a reason many of us prefer to walk in the wide open spaces of National Parks. The balm of the countryside has little chance of comforting the soul, when the constant onslaught to the senses by passing traffic is present.

My second walk showed me how two high bridges could be linked together by a convenient bit of infrastructure, a single sleeper bridge over a ditch, giving access through a probable boundary between to holdings (working farm entities).

Should we expect to be able to visit these structures top and bottom? As part of the canal network they are part of our history, but their original use above did not include public use. Historic features within our countryside will at some stage require repair or even restoration, will a wider public use that fits in with a developing social need, be more reason for their preservation? Is it worth exploring how they could be useful?

A little discovery along a line of approach has revealed a track, with gates that intersect with a right of way, 1/2 a mile of interruption free way linkage that provides direction towards these high bridges. Is there need for a right of way or would a reasonable understanding between leisure user and occupier of the countryside make this way usable?
 
Having noted this, possible line of approach, from due east another length of public RoW caught my eye ENE. One mile of furnished right of way that probable only serves local dogwalkers, which was once a way to the local church, but reverse the line of purpose, and the direction is 2 high bridges over the canal. This RoW exits onto a road, bit less that 200yds along that road is a field gate, from where there is 0.9mile of field margin linking to another RoW.

As previous posters have said, there are plenty of occupiers of the countryside, who will tell you that you cannot walk these ways because they are on 'private land', but as long as I am unsighted, my passage is not noted and no harm is done.
What is the value of these additions to the access network? How much does a line of approach to interesting or useful infrastructure improve countryside access.