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Title: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: fernman on 23:27:33, 05/12/16
The subject of walking through fields with cattle has been discussed at length again and again on this forum, but this latest news is almost unbelievable.

There was an "incident" on a farmer's land in 2004, two incidents in 2008, and two more in 2011. People were said to be injured. The health & safety executive required the farmer to make some changes by putting in fences or signs.

Then in 2013 two men walking their dogs, which were said to be on leads, on a public footpath were trampled by cows and one of the men died of his injuries.

After the farmer had admitted his guilt for failing to do much basically, he was given 12 months suspended for two years and has to pay £30,000 - which would be covered by insurance.

It makes me feel we don't have much hope, if this is the outcome of a death.

Full story: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/dec/05/farmer-cows-trampled-man-death-wiltshire-suspended-sentence (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/dec/05/farmer-cows-trampled-man-death-wiltshire-suspended-sentence)
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: Innominate Man on 23:50:10, 05/12/16
Touchy subject ...
I may have mentioned this before but I was quite shocked a few years ago when walking along a local river bank where there was cattle loose. I wasn't too happy but Mrs I was on the verge of a melt-down (to be fair she has had one horrendous incident in the past).
I felt slightly more confident as I could see the farmer heading our direction on his quad.
We stopped and waited 'til he reached us and knowing him we had a chat. At one point I mentioned his rather large bull (who is a common sight around the local fields) at the mention of which he pointed to a rather heavy looking pick shaft and openly stated that whenever the bull is around he kept that implement handy.
He said he was very unpredictable and he didn't trust him !   Great, he finds it okay to leave him prowling the fields where there are plenty of public footpaths that are well used, but wouldn't get close to him himself unless he had his 'tool' to hand   :knuppel2:
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: sussamb on 07:38:46, 06/12/16
If the reporting of the incident and history is accurate I find it amazing that the sentence was so lenient.  Then again it seems to me our judges generally are far too soft in many cases these days  >:(
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: Percy on 08:21:37, 06/12/16
If the reporting of the incident and history is accurate I find it amazing that the sentence was so lenient.  Then again it seems to me our judges generally are far too soft in many cases these days  >:(
It drives me up the wall when reading an article like this and it completely fails to state exactly what offence the farmer was being tried for. Until we know that we don't know what sentence the judge could have given.
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: Bhod on 08:32:03, 06/12/16
"Mr Godwin appeared at North West Wiltshire Magistrates’ Court in Chippenham on Monday after being charged with breaching his general duty of controlling his livestock."  - Prosecuted brought by by the HSE, so I would imagine a civil rather than a criminal charge??
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: Percy on 09:43:24, 06/12/16
"Mr Godwin appeared at North West Wiltshire Magistrates’ Court in Chippenham on Monday after being charged with breaching his general duty of controlling his livestock."  - Prosecuted brought by by the HSE, so I would imagine a civil rather than a criminal charge??

I did see that bit, still a bit vague for me. It's a negligence offence under the 1971 Animals Act but we don't know what sentences the judge was able to give.


It may be that for a first (prosecuted) offence the guidance is to give a suspended sentence. You see so many stories with judges being accused of being too lenient but they often have little or no choice in the matter - if there is a fault it is with the law not the judge.
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: sussamb on 09:51:03, 06/12/16
I agree if that's all the law allows then its the fault of the law not the judge, but in general I find sentences far too lenient when I do know exactly what the charge is and what the sentence could be, but then I think as a society we've become too soft. 

I have police friends who get exasperated when time after time they put career criminals into court only to see them get another slap on the wrist and then see them laughing and joking outside the court, knowing that they're then able to make other peoples lives a misery until they're caught again  >:(

Rant over  :)
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: Percy on 09:54:17, 06/12/16
Do you happen to know what the sentencing guidelines are for this? I expect the worst it can be is quite a short sentence.


I imagine it might be similar to the case of causing death by dangerous driving - it looks like that is being tackled as we speak.
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: sussamb on 10:00:03, 06/12/16
No I don't, but yes, some things are being looked at now  ;)

I'd like to see for example anyone caught carrying a knife illegally get a mandatory jail sentence as I feel that might help tackle the ever increasing knife use.
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: Percy on 10:23:17, 06/12/16
I think you have to tread very carefully with things like that. I have a knife I take to the allotment that I have occasionally forgotten about and had on my person when going down the pub. I haven't measured the blade but it might be dodgy. :-\
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: gunwharfman on 11:56:41, 06/12/16
My personal experience of France is that most cows, except in the mountains,  most cows are fenced off from people. I walked the GR70 (about 123 miles) a while ago and only had to walk through cows for about 200yds.

Of course in 2015 I was buffed in the chest by a maniac cow, my feet left the ground and I landed on my back,  then scurried off as fast as possible!

There are a lot of people hiking,  I think farmers need to be obligated to face up the the reality that they should take on some responsibility for their decision making,  or lack of.
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: jimbob on 13:00:08, 06/12/16
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-38209085 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-38209085)

http://www.shponline.co.uk/cow-trample-death-followed-four-other-incidents-court-hears/ (http://www.shponline.co.uk/cow-trample-death-followed-four-other-incidents-court-hears/)

Sentence suspended 2 years due to Farmers age (83y.o.)

He was not charged with a really serious offence like " Causing death through negligence" , but for "not keeping people not employed by him safe".

The death did not form part of the charge but as evidence in the charge. Which I find very strange. BUT maybe that then allows the family to take out a civil case which has more chance of success due to the burden of proof being less than in a criminal case, and this guilty verdict would then be used as evidence in the civil case? OR, maybe the verdict could allow the coroner to give a stronger verdict? It can all get quite complicated.

There is now a proven fact that he deliberately avoided safety issues, but cannot anywhere see that he deliberately meant to harm people.




Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: Bhod on 13:44:19, 06/12/16
This I would imagine (or something similar) is the sentencing guidelines applicable in this case - https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/offences/item/individuals-breach-of-duty-of-employer-towards-employees-and-non-employees-breach-of-duty-of-self-employed-to-others-breach-of-duty-of-employees-at-work/
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: Murphy on 13:04:10, 08/12/16
I'm interested in this thread.....I have to say it's now my idea of hell passing through cattle.  However taking the amount of walking I have done over the years, the law of averages is such that at some time I would experience a serious incident.  Sadly I have had several bad experiences of cattle and now will go miles out of the way to avoid them.    Feels like cattle are left out in the fields longer and  later in the year than used to be the case but maybe this is my imagination.  Gone are the days when I could relax in early November as cattle seem to be out all year long.


On my second Pennine Way, between Greenhead and Winshields I was charged by a herd causing me to dive over a dry stone wall complete with my heavy pack, tore my leg on barbed wire, and the wall came crashing down on my face causing bruising and cuts - yes I was walking on the PW on the public footpath and yes I did continue with my trek albeit somewhat battered and wary .......on another occasion I turned the corner on a green lane to be met with a herd of rampaging bullocks charging up the green lane - I was able to dive over the wall but had I been a minute or so earlier would have been trampled and then I wouldn't have been hear to suffer my later experience.


More recently whilst walking through a  small field linking the moors to a lane which is on a route often used by families as it is close to a honey pot for the outdoors.  I was with my friend, I just glanced round and saw a cow charging towards us.  I shouted to my friend who turned to look but the cow flipped him into the air just like he was a rag doll.  Had he not turned he would have been hit from behind with potential for a broken back and trampled.  As he fell to the ground from the air, he managed to kick the cow in the face with almighty force of both feet which gave him enough strength and  time to roll over and escape.  The herd then charged.......we ran.....Having reported these incidents, the best I got was "the warden has walked the field containing the cattle and experienced no issue.  We have written to the farmer to make him aware".  This whole incident appeared to occur in slow motion, and was extremely frightening and we both know that we are lucky to still be able to live to tell the tale.    :-[ :-[ :-[   I'm interested to know how putting signs up warning of cattle will make any difference?
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: tonyk on 10:45:50, 09/12/16
 If you are worried about cows and bulls its a good idea to keep a small can of WD40 and a lighter in your pocket.All animals are terrified of fire and the WD40 and lighter will create a sheet of flame that can travel 15ft or more.If farmers are left with semi-roast beef and huge vets bills they might start taking the issue more seriously.
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: Innominate Man on 14:11:54, 09/12/16
If you are worried about cows and bulls its a good idea to keep a small can of WD40 and a lighter in your pocket.All animals are terrified of fire and the WD40 and lighter will create a sheet of flame that can travel 15ft or more.If farmers are left with semi-roast beef and huge vets bills they might start taking the issue more seriously.
You've been studying Beefy's instructional videos haven't you ?   :D
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: White Horse Walker on 14:31:35, 09/12/16
What a terrible story and it seems it could have been avoided had the farmer done what he was asked after previous incidents.


I quote from a local news-site "The court was told that before Prof Porter's death Godwin had repeatedly been told by the Health and Safety Executive to install electric fencing and put up more signs."

Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: Jac on 23:13:16, 09/12/16
I've been wondering what it is about this farmer's cattle that make them so aggressive. It seems unlikely, given the length of time from the first incident, that the same animals are involved. Is it the breed, the breeding or the husbandry?
Any thoughts
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: barewirewalker on 08:06:43, 10/12/16
I've been wondering what it is about this farmer's cattle that make them so aggressive. It seems unlikely, given the length of time from the first incident, that the same animals are involved. Is it the breed, the breeding or the husbandry?
Any thoughts


Over the years, participating on this forum, I have raised several points related to the changes in breeds and husbandry methods pertinent to your question.


There are changes and they could have affected animal behaviour, but also there is a change in attitudes to sharing the countryside.


Firstly three changes in animal husbandry;
1. Tying up cattle in the cowshed and personal contact. This is no longer practiced and there is less actual physical contact between human and bovine.
2. The increase in both number and size if single suckler herds.
3. The introduction of breeds mostly from the continent, over our traditional breeds, which are the only breed named in the regulations about animal care in relation to contact with the public.


Secondly the attitude about access. This has changed since the Country Landowners Association needed to increase its membership due to loss of power in the House of Lords. Their action in strengthening the notion that all land, off the right of way, is private land. This adds to the arrogance of those like the farmer in this instant and hinders the acceptance of principles of professional care.


I have given more detail on past posts here for my reasons and experiences for stating these observations.


Personally as a past member and group branch chairman on the the NFU, I believe this organization has failed to recognise the philosophies of the CLA as counter productive to their interests and therefore missed opportunities to meet some of these problems in the formative stages.

Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: Dyffryn Ardudwy on 12:31:19, 10/12/16
A farmer can do only a certain amount to prevent personal injury or death by animals in his possession.
There are certain instances where its impossible to segregate the public from grazing cows, and when serious injury or death does occur, its very regrettable.
What ever this farmer failed to do, to prevent walkers from coming into contact with his animals, their alway's very unpredictable things, and within reason he should not be prosecuted for an animals instinct to show immense interest in us.

The only way we can stop these events happening , is to lock up the animals 24/7, and not allow them to graze naturally.

Thankfully these events are rare, but extreme caution must always be shown when crossing land with crazing animals, and if at all possible retrace your route through the field.

Many walkers do not see the danger, or think that quietly grazing cows are docile enough, and pose little physical threat to us.

Remember, these events are very rare, but large often nervous animals can be often very unpredictable.

Give cows and particularly bulls, great distance when travelling through their field.

If you are unable to access the land without getting too close for comfort, then find an alternative route.
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: barewirewalker on 13:50:07, 10/12/16
A farmer can do only a certain amount to prevent personal injury or death by animals in his possession.


I think this attitude from outside of the Agricultural industry unsafe. Having had the day to day management of a herd 120 milking cows and their followers as my personal responsibility and following the topic, I have just read the original report. Personally I am horrified at the cavalier attitude of a livestock owner to public safety.


There are plenty of steps that could be taken, first step is doing a safety assessment related to the temperament of the animals under his care and he is lucky that the insurance company did not refuse to cover his liability.


Suspicion of bad temperament has been common knowledge in the industry in relation to Limousin cattle. Enough to justify segregating any suspiciously aggresive female, pure bred or cross and a proper understanding of herd instinct when an alpha female is in a herd.


Sounds like there was danger was present in this herd well before this incident.


I organised livestock parades at a 2 day county Agricultural Show for 45 years, when the show committee would not follow my safety assessments, I resigned. No one else was prepared to put the work in to organise them so livestock parades were discontinued.


There was another case where the owner of cattle was let off by the courts. Purely because the lady, whose husband was killed, described the aggressive animal as a bull, when it was in fact a cow (Swiss dairy breed). No other industry is allowed to ring fence itself against bad practice and insisting on responsible good practice is not going to put up the price of meat.


If farmers are encouraged in the arrogance of 18th century landowners by thinking they should be represented professionally by the CLA then more of this will continue to happen.



Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: sussamb on 13:54:57, 10/12/16
Give cows and particularly bulls, great distance when travelling through their field.

That is actually wrong, bulls with cows generally exert a calming influence, and are not the problem.  Invariably it's cows with calves that are the most dangerous.
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: Dyffryn Ardudwy on 14:06:25, 10/12/16
That may well be the case, in normal circumstances, but any large group of bovine creatures, can become aroused or distracted by passers by, especially if a dog on a lead is causing them distress or annoyance.


They rarely amble away gently, to avoid any confrontation, its almost as if they know their physical weight and size can intimidate and overpower us.
Cows are very unpredictable creatures, and the best solution really is to give them as much room as possible.
Being halfway across a large field full of cows, that suddenly decide to show a big interest in you, is very scary.
Its happened to me twice over the many years of walking, and thankfully i was able to outrun them, due to the distance between me and them.

Horses especially i find very unpredictable, more so than cows.
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: sussamb on 14:24:18, 10/12/16
That may well be the case ...

It IS the case  ::)
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: Mel on 15:02:41, 10/12/16
I'm quite flummoxed, given that cattle are a "known" cause of distress to most walkers and there are so many rules and regulations around what is and isn't safe to have in a field with a PRoW through it, why farmers can't simply provide a temporary permissive path avoiding the field with cattle in.  It wouldn't be difficult.  It's not rocket science.  A temporary permissive diversion path would just need a gate/stile, a sign saying "temporary alternate path avoiding cattle field" and an arrow pointing the way.  It's not preventing anyone using the official PRoW, it's simply providing an alternative route avoiding the cattle.
 
 
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: mike knipe on 15:11:31, 10/12/16
I had a conversation at length with a farmer quite recently (probably just needed somebody to talk to!) and he managed his cattle by basically getting to know them, extensive contact and handling and never dealing with his cattle when he had his dog with him.
Suckler cattle with calves at foot are specially twitchy about dogs - and I've been run at by belted galloways, which are not the most aggressive cattle in the world even when there's been a bull in the field. I've been chased many times by sucklers but never by a bull, whether its been on its own or in a herd. In fact, this summer in Northumberland, we had to muscle our way through three huge beef bulls who seem to have been having some sort of meeting by the pasture gates.
Having said that, all cattle and horses should be considered as a potential threat because you're a walker and you're not the farmer/.owner who will have a good idea which animals will be aggressive and which won't. (although farmers often get injured by their own animals)
One answer to the problem is not to insist that farmers don't have their castle in fields with rights of way, but to alter access legislation so that it would be perfectly legal for a walker to take a safer route. This would also help to protect in-lamb sheep and any other animals which may be nervous or aggressive. In effect, this would bring Englandandwales into line with Scotland
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: bricam2096 on 15:13:10, 10/12/16
On entering a field with cattle in it, I just start reading aloud some of DA's forum posts, that tends to make the animals a bit drowsy and lose the will, thus leaving me with an easy passage through the field  O0
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: Mel on 15:18:37, 10/12/16
Surely doing that would make them gather round saying "no, I'm Llandudnoboy"  ???
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: Penygadair on 15:55:30, 10/12/16
I just start reading aloud some of DA's forum posts, that tends to make the animals a bit drowsy


Has the same effect on humans.  :)
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: sussamb on 16:41:57, 10/12/16
 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: mike knipe on 00:16:04, 11/12/16
I don't think there's any need for personal attacks - DA is perfectly entitled to his views.
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: barewirewalker on 10:16:30, 11/12/16
One answer to the problem is not to insist that farmers don't have their castle in fields with rights of way, but to alter access legislation so that it would be perfectly legal for a walker to take a safer route. This would also help to protect in-lamb sheep and any other animals which may be nervous or aggressive. In effect, this would bring England and Wales into line with Scotland


This of course is the common sense option and has been mentioned many times on this forum. Few here will differentiate between Farmer and Landowner but there is a clear difference, both historically and professionally. It seems to me that the Farmers professional lobby group have chosen to leave the arguments relating to access to the organization, which lobbies for landowner interest. This tend to increase the bad attitudes of those individual owner/occupiers, whose attitudes are not prepared to move with the times.
As a one time farmer, friends and acquaintances from those times, often make unguarded remarks to me. This reveals thinking and attitudes supporting the sort of negligence revealed by this farmer's actions. To my thinking it is unfortunate that leniency due to man's age has diverted stronger action.


Why am I concerned? I questioned DA's attitude because I think this malaise is deeper, after being verbally abused by a landowner a few years ago I followed up by contacting CLA, NFU, Rights of Way dept. etc. One RoW enforcement officer asked me the age of my abuser. His reason, my reply reinforced his recognition that these attitudes were growing in the younger generation of farmer owner/occupiers. This has coincided with the increase of membership recruitment activity by the CLA.


At a time when the British Farmer needs the support of the customers and neighbours more than ever, the value of the access network for public relations between our producers of food and their customers should not be soured by outdated and selfish attitudes about property rights.
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: Dyffryn Ardudwy on 18:17:49, 20/12/16
If my remarks seem a little out of turn, how then can i explain a herd of cows stampeding at considerable speed towards me, in the field above Porth Wen brickworks near Bull Bay on Anglesey.
I know had i been daft enough to stand my ground, then i would no doubt have been seriously injured or killed.

The small swing gate on the opposite side of the field, facing semaphore hill, thankfully was within reaching distance.

When i reached the safety of the dividing fence, the cows still extremely agitated, were still running up and down the perimeter of the field.

Cows, Bullocks and Bulls, are very unpredictable animals, if one gets in the way of very excited animals then the consequences can sometimes be fatal.

I feel its unjust holding land owners and farmers accountable for the behaviour of very unpredictable animals.

If the animals owner, has done everything within their power, to protect members of the public from coming into direct contact with these animals, then its very unfair to prosecute them.

Blame for these most unfortunate events, must always be looked for, so that the wanton behaviour of sometimes unpredictable creatures can be passed on to their owner, even if the owner has done everything to contain these animals in as safe an environment as possible.

We take the risk of entering that field full of cows, because 99% of the time they show little or no interest in us.

When these very rare events take place, we must always assume its the owners fault, almost as if he has personally trained his beasts to attack certain people.

Are we to go down the road, and lock up every farm animal away from potential danger to the public, or are we always looking for blame, when tragic events like this happen.

Cows, Horses and other animals, do not think or behave like us, why then are their owners always held responsible for their actions ?.


In this instance, i feel the correct verdict was reached.
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: sussamb on 20:16:08, 20/12/16
Really?  Had it been a one off I'd have agreed with you, but this guy ignored numerous warnings so surely the fault lays with him for not taking action?
Title: Re: Farmer escapes jail after cows kill man
Post by: barewirewalker on 12:53:13, 21/12/16
Really?  Had it been a one off I'd have agreed with you, but this guy ignored numerous warnings so surely the fault lays with him for not taking action?


 O0  agree.


Appeasement is dangerous, clearly professional negligence and bad for the public face of farming. Landowners try to hide behind the good image forged by many generations of farmers but now they trying to take a more active part their attitudes impart arrogance to those occupiers of the countryside, whose management skills should be moving into the 21st century and not the 19th.