Walking Forum

Main Boards => Gear => Topic started by: beefy on 20:12:33, 29/06/20

Title: Single skin tents
Post by: beefy on 20:12:33, 29/06/20
If you are thinking of buying a single skin tent watch this video  ;D


https://youtu.be/BK57vewgfXg (https://youtu.be/BK57vewgfXg)
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: April on 20:28:08, 29/06/20
I like his pillow  :D

That was a lot of water inside the tent.
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: gunwharfman on 21:17:34, 29/06/20
My Marmot Pulsar One is single skin, but with an inner tent mesh. I've camped in a fair amount in wet and stormy conditions and have had some condensation on the inner surface and have had condensation when the other weather conditions are right. Its never been a problem to me though, one or two drips a few times on some very bad condensation mornings but nothing more than that. The mesh separates me from the inner tent surface and it offers me a good through-flow of air which I think helps. Also, my outer tent doesn't actually touch the ground, which I also think helps with the airflow. I don't cook and just drink water when hiking, tea and coffee are only consumed in cafes, so the only heat source overnight in my tent is me.

I have a Wild Country Zephyros One as well and that performs well, I use this tent in the colder months.

As an older person, at some point soon I know I will come to the end of my hiking life, I'd like to have a few more years at it but, although I've looked at buying a new tent for some time I cannot decide on one. And I have a self imposed upper money limit as well, which doesn't help me either.
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 21:50:17, 29/06/20
Thankfully I am not thinking of buying a single skin tent.  :D


Having said that, I'm intrigued by the Lightwave Sigma S10 - be interesting to see how the carbon coated single skin material stands the test of time.
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 07:47:45, 30/06/20
My Marmot Pulsar One is single skin, but with an inner tent mesh.


Then it is not really single skin, is it, gwm?  ;)


Although, to be fair, with a mesh inner, it might as well be.
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: gunwharfman on 09:31:18, 30/06/20
Maybe I've never understood the term ''single skin' properly?

I've always judged that my Zepyros One is a double skin in that it has a permanent non-mesh inner all enclosed zipped living space whereas my Marmot Pulsar One's inner tent has an all in one zipped living space and its all mesh, except for the floor area.

Up until today, I've always thought of my Marmot as a single skin. So in terms of this subject, a single skin is a tent with nothing inside and not even a floor? I've always thought that such structures were just tarps or tarp variations?

Oh well, I'm happy to live and learn. I'll just have to personally re-define how I look at how I categorise the difference between 'tents,' 'tarps', and 'bivis' and 'single' and 'double skinned' structures.
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 10:55:26, 30/06/20
I apologise for delving into semantics, but a single skin can have a floor, as in the tent featured in the video. :)
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: gunwharfman on 11:04:57, 30/06/20
I can easily get into the same.
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: gunwharfman on 11:07:26, 30/06/20
 'but a single skin can have a floor, as in the tent featured in the video.'

I wouldn't buy one, adding a mesh inner would be my minimum requirement!
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 11:11:28, 30/06/20
Neither would I!
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: SteamyTea on 11:48:52, 30/06/20
May be okay to have a single skin in areas with low humidity i.e. up mountains or semi arid places.
UK has an odd climate, we are constantly close to the dew point temperature. So not going to stop condensation, just have to channel it to places that stop it becoming a problem.
I still think that a sealed double skin design is needed.
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: astaman on 19:51:49, 30/06/20
The Lanshan tents do come with an instruction to seam seal them before  use and he said that he was using it straight out of the box. So, in addition to the condensation, his tent was probably leaking from the seams near the main pressure points around the top. Having said that, I might consider a tent with an mesh inner but not one with only an outer fly - especially for use in a country as dewy as ours. I  could be wrong about this but I believe that the original Lanshan 1 came with a full mesh inner and seemed to be quite favorably reviewed and had a bit of a following. I don't understand why they produced a single skin tent that saves only a few grams. Maybe I'm missing something.
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 22:30:33, 30/06/20
I doubt that sealing the seams would have made much difference in the circumstances - the inside surface of the fly was awash with condensation!
Cooking inside can't have helped, mind.  ;D


PS - I've just got a new tent with a silnylon fly (and solid inner, I might add); this was supplied with unsealed seams and a recommendation to seal them. It rained steadily during my first camp in the garden - no drips from the unsealed seam along the apex. I left it up all the next day, during which time we had a torrential downpour during a thunderstorm - not a drop came through, as far as I could see.
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: strawy on 22:33:00, 30/06/20
I've always judged that my Zepyros One is a double skin in that it has a permanent non-mesh inner all enclosed zipped living space
I also have a Zeph One,its the early model & i find it produces a fair bit of condensation,ive never got damp or wet though as its shape lets it run off well away from the "inner"
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 07:45:57, 01/07/20
I also have a Zeph One,its the early model & i find it produces a fair bit of condensation,ive never got damp or wet though as its shape lets it run off well away from the "inner"


And that is the whole point - small synthetic tents get condensation to a greater or lesser extent, but the inner allows this to be managed and kept away from the occupant and their gear.


Also, when it is windy, or raining heavily, condensation gets shaken or knocked off the outer and is caught by the inner, rather than land on your sleeping bag and face! Happened when I was out in the rain the other night.
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: astaman on 08:59:12, 01/07/20

And that is the whole point - small synthetic tents get condensation to a greater or lesser extent, but the inner allows this to be managed and kept away from the occupant and their gear.


Yes, this is exactly the point. They all suffer from condensation but an inner tent provides a barrier between the occupant and the moisture. Do you think that the void between the inner tent and the fly is cooler than the inner tent and warmer than the outside thus acting as a barrier lessening the contrast between the temperature on the inside of the inner tent and the outside air? If so then it might help to actually prevent the amount of condensation overall as well as making it easier to live with? Just a thought.
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: watershed on 10:44:08, 01/07/20
interesting discussion.
When I decided to extend my walking to multi day treks.
I went for a 2 man tent with mesh inner, and two side doors.
I got a copper spur 2. being 2 man it gave me plenty of space and appears to have no obvious condensation issues.
possibly the larger size and 2 doors means a bigger area to distribute my breath etc. as I use it as a solo tent.
I am seriously considering up grading to a Notch Li, This is a 1 man tent so I will read Wildwalkings blog with great interest to see how it performs both overall and as far as condensation goes during his Dover Cape Wrath expedition. The reason to change to the Notch Li is even lower weight, Ultra water proof, sturdier in a gale and smaller footprint, to make finding a flat camping site easier.
I would go for the solid roofed Inner with the Notch Li as due to its smaller size I would expect more chance of condensation.
Personally I would not buy a 1 door tent for the same reason.
I have never seriously considered a single skin tent. due to lack of midge protection and their reputation for condensation.




 
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: astaman on 11:17:21, 01/07/20

I have never seriously considered a single skin tent. due to lack of midge protection and their reputation for condensation.


A lot of them (like Zpacks, etc.) do have mesh inner doors and mesh connecting the bathtub floor to the single skin fly and are midge/mosquito proof. I still wouldn't go for one just because of the condensation issue. If you're wild camping a lot the size of the footprint can be a real concern - especially in the heathery parts of the world.
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: SteamyTea on 11:56:15, 01/07/20

Yes, this is exactly the point. They all suffer from condensation but an inner tent provides a barrier between the occupant and the moisture. Do you think that the void between the inner tent and the fly is cooler than the inner tent and warmer than the outside thus acting as a barrier lessening the contrast between the temperature on the inside of the inner tent and the outside air? If so then it might help to actually prevent the amount of condensation overall as well as making it easier to live with? Just a thought.
the inner is almost certainly warmer than the void between the two canvases.
But the inner will almost certainly have a higher humidity level.
Assuming that the inner is a breathable fabric, condensation should only form on the outer.
This may be part of the thinking behind mesh inners. They also give you a physical barrier and a visual warning.
Larger tents should give you less condensation as the ratio between water vapour generation i.e breathing, and air changes i.e drafts, along with larger volume, all work in the right direction.
Condensation in modern housing is an issue, especially timber framed housing. Back in the 70s and 80s, most UK TF housing was done to an American, or Scandinavian spec. This did not work well as the RH levels in the UK are higher, as are the mean temperatures.
It is cured by putting a vapour barrier on the inside and then mechanically controlling the humidity with MVHR.
One of the reasons I think there is room for improvement with tents.
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 16:16:43, 01/07/20

Yes, this is exactly the point. They all suffer from condensation but an inner tent provides a barrier between the occupant and the moisture. Do you think that the void between the inner tent and the fly is cooler than the inner tent and warmer than the outside thus acting as a barrier lessening the contrast between the temperature on the inside of the inner tent and the outside air? If so then it might help to actually prevent the amount of condensation overall as well as making it easier to live with? Just a thought.


There's bound to be a small temperature differential between the void and the interior.
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: strawy on 17:56:57, 01/07/20
Asking this just out of interest.
Those of us who use 1 man tents,would you/have you,ever use/used it without the flysheet ?
I cant in mine as the main pole holds it all up but some tents have the fly fastened over the main structure so the "inner" can stand alone.
It would never do for me,i do like a little privacy,and i certainly wouldnt trust the great british weather.
Would probably solve any condensation problems though  ;)

Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 18:27:51, 01/07/20
Never thought of using just the inner fn a tent, to be honest. Gambling with the British weather!
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: SteamyTea on 21:38:56, 01/07/20
Asking this just out of interest.
Those of us who use 1 man tents,would you/have you,ever use/used it without the flysheet ?
I cant in mine as the main pole holds it all up but some tents have the fly fastened over the main structure so the "inner" can stand alone.
It would never do for me,i do like a little privacy,and i certainly wouldnt trust the great british weather.
Would probably solve any condensation problems though  ;)
Depends how the poles are fitted.
Don't think either of mine allow the inner to be used alone.  One may be able to with simple modifications.  Not really thought about it.


Think for a few seconds more about it, silvered both side would be good in woodland as it would reflect the trees and blend in.


What would be good with a tent is the fly having a normal colour on one side and silvered on the other.  Then, when it is sunny, turn the fly sheet so that it is shiny side out to reflect the sunlight.
I once woke up and thought my tent was on fire it was so hot.
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: beefy on 22:23:22, 01/07/20
I cant see a reflective silver tent being very practical it wouldn't blend in with the environment, especially when wild camping, but the idea would be useful in hot weather if pitched in the daytime on a campsite
Our msr tents can pitch just the inner or outer, we pitched one very hot evening with the fly pulled back for ventilation,  but fastened it on properly later on when it cooled down, cant trust the uk weather  :)


Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: beefy on 22:27:25, 01/07/20
Anyway, back to single skin tents,
Does anyone own a Zpacks Altaplex or similar, was just wondering if they have the same problem as the tent in the video, regards the condensation "bridging" the mesh and pooling on the floor?

Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: strawy on 00:40:00, 02/07/20
Something like this..
http://www.trekkertent.com/home/home/39-phreeranger-dyneema-composite.html (http://www.trekkertent.com/home/home/39-phreeranger-dyneema-composite.html)
I have seen others.
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: April on 06:37:56, 02/07/20
Anyway back to single skin tents  ::)  ;)

I seem to remember someone posted a photo of an Altaplex on here a while back when they bought it. I don't think they posted about it again though when they'd been out in it. It would be interesting to hear how it coped with the moisture issue.
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 08:01:56, 02/07/20
Anyway back to single skin tents  ::) ;)

I seem to remember someone posted a photo of an Altaplex on here a while back when they bought it. I don't think they posted about it again though when they'd been out in it. It would be interesting to hear how it coped with the moisture issue.


Badly. I infer!  :D
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: beefy on 11:23:26, 02/07/20
Anyway back to single skin tents  ::) ;)

I seem to remember someone posted a photo of an Altaplex on here a while back when they bought it. I don't think they posted about it again though when they'd been out in it. It would be interesting to hear how it coped with the moisture issue.
Just found this old thread, makes for some entertaining reading  ;D
http://www.walkingforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=36678.0 (http://www.walkingforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=36678.0)
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 13:16:27, 02/07/20
Just found this old thread, makes for some entertaining reading  ;D
http://www.walkingforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=36678.0 (http://www.walkingforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=36678.0)


Ah, yes - as soon as I got to the 'windproof' no see um mesh a big smile appeared on my face! Very entertaining.  ;D ;D
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: April on 18:19:43, 02/07/20
Ah, yes - as soon as I got to the 'windproof' no see um mesh a big smile appeared on my face! Very entertaining.  ;D ;D

Don't forget it is also waterproof  ;)  O0  ;D
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 19:37:02, 02/07/20
Don't forget it is also waterproof  ;) O0 ;D


How could I forget!!  :D


That thread is a bit of a classic.
Title: Re: Single skin tents
Post by: beefy on 19:38:10, 02/07/20

Ah, yes - as soon as I got to the 'windproof' no see um mesh a big smile appeared on my face! Very entertaining.  ;D ;D


Don't forget it is also waterproof  ;) O0 ;D


 :2funny: