Author Topic: Footpaths - are farmers allowed to plough them up?  (Read 11616 times)

Mel

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Re: Footpaths - are farmers allowed to plough them up?
« Reply #60 on: 18:22:04, 03/04/18 »
Maggot - Drunk? I wish!  :D


Jimbob - I use ViewRanger.  I'm absolutely convinced that it had plenty enough time to pick up my slow, ambling, meander without it needing to cut corners - I don't walk that fast  ;D   No problems with being blocked by trees or rocks or bad weather either. 


The bit in the bottom right "corner" is where I was definitely following field edges with well established hedges and drainage ditches, in keeping with the waymarkers (and hoofprints as it is a bridleway).  Had I followed the RoW as marked on the map, I'd have been wading across a field of freshly ploughed mud.  There was no waymarker at that point either.


The "twiddley bit" near the moat (marked on the map) was an intentional detour to have a look at the moat. 


The other "twiddley bit" above North Park was actually a wander around a well established, mature and decent sized lake (not marked on the map)!


How am I supposed to "abide by the law", so to speak, when the map is inaccurate?  I've even looked at the area on our (up to date within 6 months) mapping system at work and the map is IDENTICAL to that screenshot.


There are loads of anomalies like this where I live where the mapping just doesn't reflect what's on the ground.  Makes it a bit difficult to know whether you're in the right or in the wrong when following a route....


... which is why I actually no longer care if I wander off a map-marked RoW path a bit. 


Here's a screengrab of my route overlaid on a satellite view...





I can't see any evidence of the "correct" route I should have taken.  Oh, and the lake is clearly visible!!



No expense spared in pursuit of a bargain ;)
https://snailspacewalks.blogspot.co.uk/

barewirewalker

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Re: Footpaths - are farmers allowed to plough them up?
« Reply #61 on: 19:03:21, 03/04/18 »
Mel, sounds like an eminently suitable use of available terrain, just the sort of route plan I yearn to read. Sadly such routes do not get the wider publication they deserve, if they were perhaps the occupiers of our countryside might start to realize how they are sitting on a sadly underdeveloped asset.



BWW
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jimbob

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Re: Footpaths - are farmers allowed to plough them up?
« Reply #62 on: 19:08:02, 03/04/18 »
HI Mel  I think you can actually set hiw many spots VR takes  in its settings. Nothing to do with how slow or fast you walk. If you want to record ten or one hundred spots per mile I believe you set that up yourself.  I am sure Sussamb will know the correct words for what I am getting at. I am stuck for the words and won't be seeing my grandchildren for tech advice for a few weeks.
Too little, too late, too bad......

Mel

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Re: Footpaths - are farmers allowed to plough them up?
« Reply #63 on: 19:29:00, 03/04/18 »
No, I know exactly what you mean jimbob.  It's something like "track minimum time" and "track minimum distance" that you can adjust - larger the time gap and distance between the GPS talking to the satellite, the less accurate and more "straight edged" the track recording will be.  I absolutely believe it's nothing to do with that though because (bad weather and obstacles excepted) it's absolutely spot on with my walks (eg, when I'm doing my pavement pounding "mile a day at night" walks for my Challenge365).


If you look at my satellite image, you can see my track is tracing the edge of the field (as per the waymarkers on the ground) and that's exactly the path I took.  It truly doesn't match the RoW lines (in that bottom right hand corner) when walking it for real.


BWW, well, I'm not going to go hounding landowners, parish councils and local authorities about these mapping anomalies.  I just accept that no map can ever be accurate and it would be like p!$$ing into the wind fighting to get that accuracy.  Ironically, those map inaccuracies would probably get any "prosecuting" landowner laughed out of court, if trespass was a criminal offence in the first place.
No expense spared in pursuit of a bargain ;)
https://snailspacewalks.blogspot.co.uk/

jimbob

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Re: Footpaths - are farmers allowed to plough them up?
« Reply #64 on: 19:52:40, 03/04/18 »
Mel  O0 Gotcha.
The light has been switched on :-\
Too little, too late, too bad......

barewirewalker

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Re: Footpaths - are farmers allowed to plough them up?
« Reply #65 on: 11:14:02, 04/04/18 »
BWW, well, I'm not going to go hounding landowners, parish councils and local authorities about these mapping anomalies.  I just accept that no map can ever be accurate and it would be like p!$$ing into the wind fighting to get that accuracy.  Ironically, those map inaccuracies would probably get any "prosecuting" landowner laughed out of court, if trespass was a criminal offence in the first place.


We are full square on the same wave length there, Mel. I spent quite a lot of my time trying to show how slightly larger areas merit exploration and then then if found that some of the examples were mirrored in Hereford, where a landowner has written a fairly lengthy document on how we should be satisfied with the footpaths we have got, even  a few less, I thought it was rather funny that he had done so little research on his subject that he could publish a national policy document when he lives on top of so many anomalies.


Even more hilarious, as another member of the forum pointed out, he got an OBE for it.


Ploughing up a footpath is only a temporary obstruction, there was a more permanent example at the head of the Glynceiriog Valley, probably still is, where the Afon Ceiriog had eroded away part of the right of way of a footpath that led to the church. Unfortunately the bit it took out was on a small conifer plantation. My daughter and I were doing a X Wales route at the time, we had committed ourselves to this length of footpath, as the alternative was a road still in deep shade at that time of day and because it was in keeping with experience of visiting this valley. The landowner obviously had an issue with the use of the footpath as there was a obvious alternative route 30-40 yards away, a field 2 field gate the other side of the plantation. However the top rail of this gate was heavily bound with barbed wire and the gate was chained and padlocked to the slapping post.


I lifted the gate of by the hinges and we were able pass through. My daughter, normally mild by nature, suggested that I leave the gate open, but I rehung the gate, because it would only show the occupier this way through, and when the gate was rehung they would reverse the top hinge so that it could not be lifted.


Some months later I was trolling through the landowner contributions to an appeal by No. 10, Downing Street for examples of problems with the Rights of Way system. I was aware of this because of an appeal for it's members  by the CLA to make representation on this website and that appeal was slanted towards making complaints.


One complaint stood out, it was clearly this path we had taken, written in by the occupiers wife, complaining that it was unfair that they could not have the Right of Way removed because it had become unusable by the change in course of the river.


This emphasizes the need to understand the true integrity of a way. How important is the link of point A to point B, also the quality of way that the AB provides and what is the balance of the convenience towards the occupier, if a intermediary point occurs within that way.


When my daughter and I stood on the rim of that valley, looking across the ground we were about to cross, with an early morning sunrise lighting up the way we would walk to Bala, the bend in the river glistened and the church beyond glowed. In that church yard Sir Alfred McAlpine is buried, he used a lot of his money to turn much of the Ceriog Valley into his own private shooting estate, much now dispersed but an antipathy towards walkers still lingers there.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.

Andies

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Re: Footpaths - are farmers allowed to plough them up?
« Reply #66 on: 16:50:34, 04/04/18 »
So here’s something to ponder on…  Screenshot of my walk yesterday.  I was following the waymarkers on the ground….but they don’t match up with what’s on the map.
Was I trespassing?



If you had nothing better to do Mel you could look on the definitive map and/or contact the appropriate Council to confirm the exact routes of these ROW ;). I have in the past found some differences between OS maps, and what actually should exist, albeit these have usually been in connection with ROW that have been extinguished and not yet reflected on the OS maps. I have never actually bothered much about comparatively small variations shown on the gps of my route and the ROW on the map. That said I tend to go where I want in any event :D

jimbob

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Re: Footpaths - are farmers allowed to plough them up?
« Reply #67 on: 17:11:32, 04/04/18 »
That said I tend to go where I want in any event :D

 O0 O0 O0 Exactly.
I leave no damage to land or stock.
Too little, too late, too bad......

ninthace

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Re: Footpaths - are farmers allowed to plough them up?
« Reply #68 on: 17:40:55, 04/04/18 »
Mel,
I can sympathize with the unannounced lake on your walk. As a teenager, I was on an Outward Bound Course part of which involved spending a night alone in the middle of Dartmoor and then getting back to the school in the morning. When I woke up the cloud was down to ground level so navigation was tricky to say the least. It wasn't helped by coming across a reservoir which was not on the version of the map I had been given! Luckily I elected to turn in the right direction for the shortest route back.
Solvitur Ambulando

Mel

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Re: Footpaths - are farmers allowed to plough them up?
« Reply #69 on: 17:46:10, 04/04/18 »
My work involves using the definitive map Andies and I have compared it.  It is identical to my OS map screengrab above O0


The point of my post is that there are so many small anomalies on the maps widely available to the general public and what's actually on the ground that trying to prove who was right or wrong would be a financially un-viable exercise if a landowner wanted to take me to court.  Am I wrong for following the waymarkers on the ground and not the path; or would I be wrong for following the paths on the map and not the waymarkers on the ground?


Ultimately, I also just go where I please.  Leave nothing but footsteps, take nothing but photographs.  My post is just an exercise of curiosity borne from a combination of this recent topic resurrection (by a one-post wonder, no less  ::)  ) and a bank holiday nav practice meander which highlighted I wasn't walking where I "should" have been, if I am to take the map as gospel :)


BWW.... too many words..... I've gone page-blind  :D


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https://snailspacewalks.blogspot.co.uk/

fernman

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Re: Footpaths - are farmers allowed to plough them up?
« Reply #70 on: 18:29:05, 04/04/18 »
Here's an OS anomaly. It's at SH848325 to the west of Llanuwchllyn.

The first image is the 1:50k square. Can you see the lake by the forest on the right?

The second image is the same square on the 1:25k map. No lake!
As I walked past it last May using a 1:25k map, I was somewhat surprised to see a lake there! It was mature, with rushes and water flag around the banks, sheets of water lily leaves stretching from the edges, and numbers of waterfowl, while I could see no hint of landscaping, such as a man-sculpted dam.

I copied the images just now from Bing Maps, which I understand uses the latest ones.

barewirewalker

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Re: Footpaths - are farmers allowed to plough them up?
« Reply #71 on: 09:05:43, 05/04/18 »
Was it really June 2015, when I took my 'wee trespass through Somerset House, London.' It was on your advice, Fernman, I was able to start to use online historic maps from NLS.


We sell the history of our access network short if we assume that anomalies in mapping are inaccuracies. Often the answer lies in comparing pre-1940 OS maps with todays mapping. Here is an example;


There is a 0.54 miles of right of way leading from Wellington (SJ 64192 11370), Shropshire to a country house Orleton Hall and stops dead. The owner claims that it was a short cut from the servant's quarters to the town center. But if you look at pre-war maps, you will find a continuation of that footpath to the village of Wrockwardine, from the other side of the grounds of the hall. If you look at NLS 25in per mile there appears to be a way through the grounds, which joins this footpath to the back drive linking to today's right of way.


I think this shows that pre-war there was a publicly used way from Wrockwardine into the center of Wellington, the hall would have been surrounded by parkland. At the outbreak of the war the parkland would have come under the plough, by order of WarAg, so post-war the original way had become the back drive plus the footpath, now shown as a RoW. The owner of the hall, who incidentally is Shropshire's president of the Country Landowner's Association, is not prepared to admit that the back drive should be part of the continuation of the right of way.


This anomaly shows something deeper, pre-war livestock would be driven to market, but the old livestock market of Wellington is separated from the produce market by a railway line and are 0.5 miles apart.


Did the foot traffic taking produce to market separate their ways at Wrockwardine from the livestock being driven to the livestock market.


The owner of Orleton Hall will have 25in to the Mile maps, which will show this old way. Incidentally the current owner is a member of the Telford Local Access Forum.


Would this route have any relevance today? It is not difficult to judge that it is part of the best line of country walking to join the two towns of Wellington and Shrewsbury by a continuous route avoiding all roads, if a few lostways were reinstated to link up existing rights of way.
BWW
Their Land is in Our Country.