Author Topic: OS Symbol advice please  (Read 562 times)

Paul H

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OS Symbol advice please
« on: 21:19:51, 30/01/18 »
Hi all
New on here after saying hello before  ;D
 
I would like to start planning some routes after completing a few walks this year which we've been really enjoying. I've been looking at OS maps online with the view to saving the route as GPX and uploading to my Fenix 3, but I haven't yet subscribed. Looking through the forum, Where's the Path, also looks like a great route planner which I may well start using O0
 
I've noticed a few discrepancies with where footpaths are and would be very grateful for people's thoughts. I would like to point out I class myself as a novice map reader. Despite planning my own routes over 30 years ago when in the Scouts, I'm still a novice and have forgotten a lot of the symbols but am trying to re-familiarise myself.
 
I've attached a few screenshots of what I hope to explain.
 
Llangollen 1 - OS online of an area just east of the Ponderosa cafe, horseshoe pass. The footpath on the left ends and turns in to a thin solid black line (divider, wall/fence?). Goes to a road leading behind the building then joins another solid black line, leading to another footpath. On this screenshot, the footpath on the far right also leads in to a solid black line, and the footpath at the top leading from the stream doesn't seem to go anywhere. Comparing this to Lllangollen 2 screenshot, the footpath simply leads around the building and away.
 
Another example is an area to the west of the Ponderosa cafe. Horseshoe 1 shows a footpath leading north from the A542, turning in to a bridleway? which then takes you to the Ponderosa. Horseshoe 2, again OS online, shows a number of footpaths leading to the Ponderosa confirmed in the aerial snapshot of the area in Horseshoe 1.
 
My question really is does anyone have any experience of using the OS Maps online? It seems to have detail of many other footpaths not shown on WTP for example, yet sometimes these 'footpaths' indicated simply lead in to the solid black lines which I'm unsure of whether you can walk along these or not. Other times the footpaths aren't even there from looking at other areas in North Wales. Left of Bronaber heading to Coed y Brenin forest for example.

This has felt a bit long-winded but any comments on the above, advice and experience of route planning from more experienced walkers than myself would be very greatly appreciated  :)  I would like to plan fairly accurate routes and to have some confidence in using one of the route planners, rather than dig out a paper map, a pencil and a ruler again  ;D ..although I think there's probably a lot to be said for that method.
 
Thanks  O0

Tin

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Re: OS Symbol advice please
« Reply #1 on: 22:24:10, 30/01/18 »
A black line on a map usually is a boundary of some kind; a fence, wall, hedge or a boundary bank. A black dotted line isn't a path but an unfenced boundary, so if you see a black dotted line running parallel to a solid black line it means a track is fenced on one side but is open on the other ( the dotted line ). This doesn't mean it's a public right of way though.


I think this is what you're after but not sure, apologies if it's not.

sussamb

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Re: OS Symbol advice please
« Reply #2 on: 06:20:00, 31/01/18 »
Sorry but can't view your screenshots as they are all too blurred, so not sure what you're referring too.  However Tin isn't correct, a black dotted line is a path, but not a right of way (which would be in red on a 1:50K map, and green on a 1:25K).

Looking in the general area of Llangollen I can't spot any solid black lines which you could be referring to.  Can you give a grid ref?
« Last Edit: 06:33:26, 31/01/18 by sussamb »
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Lakeland Lorry

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Re: OS Symbol advice please
« Reply #3 on: 08:27:20, 31/01/18 »
I'm not quite sure what you're referring to either, but using Bing Maps, with the Ordnance Survey maps switched on, I can't see any bridleways in the vicinity of the Ponderosa Cafe mentioned in your first example.   I can see the green diamond shapes marked along part of the A452 in that area, but that's the OS symbol for a National Trial.

As Tin mentioned, a solid black line on a map is usually a boundary of some kind, such as a fence or wall.   If the wall is tumbled down, or with large gaps in it, then it may be shown as a broken black line. 

Definitive Rights of Way, such as a footpath or bridleway will be shown as a dotted or dashed line, either in red on a 1:50,000 map or in green on a 1:25,000 map.   However, the important thing to realise is that although these rights of ways may be shown on a map, they may not actually exist on the ground.   This is especially true in places like the Lake District, where people have taken an easier route, away from the definitive right of way.   In cases like this, the paths that do actually exist on the ground can sometimes be shown on the maps as black dashed lines. 

A good example of this can be seen in the area a couple of km north east of the Ponderosa Cafe, where the wireless stations are shown on Cyrn-y-Brain.   If you go to www.bing.com/maps and search for Llangollen, then choose Ordnance from the drop down menu, you'll be able to zoom in first to a 1:50km map, and then to a 1:50km map.   If you do that, then you will see the lots of small dotted/dashed black lines appear.   These indicate the actual paths on the ground that have been formed by people walking towards the wireless station.

This website gives a good explanation about rights of ways, and paths on the ground: 
http://www.mountainsafety.co.uk/Nav-Paths-Rights-of-Way-and-Boundaries.aspx




Tin

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Re: OS Symbol advice please
« Reply #4 on: 08:31:59, 31/01/18 »
Sorry but can't view your screenshots as they are all too blurred, so not sure what you're referring too.  However Tin isn't correct, a black dotted line is a path, but not a right of way (which would be in red on a 1:50K map, and green on a 1:25K).

Looking in the general area of Llangollen I can't spot any solid black lines which you could be referring to.  Can you give a grid ref?


I meant the black dotted line that OP was looking at. This to me looks like an unfenced boundary ( I could be wrong though and apologise for giving wrong information if I am  :) [size=78%] ).[/size]


Edit; I keep writing dotted when I actually mean dashed, sorry for the confusion, and thank you to Lakeland Lorry O0 .
« Last Edit: 08:38:21, 31/01/18 by Tin »

fernman

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Re: OS Symbol advice please
« Reply #5 on: 09:30:04, 31/01/18 »
There are also black dotted lines that represent parish boundaries. I'll bet I'm not the only one who has confused them for paths, while in 2016 I was unsure I was in Cwm Moch in the Rhinogs because the obvious stream I could see in the valley was totally hidden on the 1:25k map by a parish boundary.

Thanks for the Mountain Safety link, LL, it's another one to add to my collection.

Lakeland Lorry

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Re: OS Symbol advice please
« Reply #6 on: 10:00:53, 31/01/18 »
There are also black dotted lines that represent parish boundaries. I'll bet I'm not the only one who has confused them for paths, while in 2016 I was unsure I was in Cwm Moch in the Rhinogs because the obvious stream I could see in the valley was totally hidden on the 1:25k map by a parish boundary.


You're right.  Sometimes it's difficult to distinguish the black dotted lines (representing parish boundaries) from the black dashed lines (representing path on the ground).

I remember a year or so ago that the Keswick MRT had to go and rescue a couple from the western side of Ullock Pike after they had attempted to follow what they thought was a path on the ground.  It was actually a parish boundary that went straight downhill through some very dodgy ground.





Paul H

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Re: OS Symbol advice please
« Reply #7 on: 13:51:02, 31/01/18 »
Hi all


Really appreciate the time taken to have a look at this for me, and apologies for the blurred images. I've attempted to upload to Dropbox and here are the links for the screenshots I originally uploaded. Please just add the usual URL info before each with an 's' after the http


Lllangollen 1
dropbox.com/s/38wtg5ae7onr10v/Llangollen%201.png?dl=0   


Llangollen 2
dropbox.com/s/5b8v2r4nruqi961/Llangollen%202.png?dl=0


Horseshoe 1
dropbox.com/s/b6rkz4tvjo5gky1/Horseshoe%201.png?dl=0


Horseshoe 2
dropbox.com/s/2vycjsm9flz9p7b/Horseshoe%202.png?dl=0


Grid Refs for them are
Llangollen - SJ 20068 48076[/size]
Horseshoe - SJ 19205 47537[/size]

[/size]
Thanks for all the advice so far as well, really useful [/size] O0  It is hard to distinguish exactly what the colours of paths, etc are when using OS Maps online as for some reason it is in monochrome, except for water and forests/woods. I am only using the free version, and not sure if this would change if I did subscribe. Does anyone have any experience of using OS online? Hopefully the above images will clarify a bit what I was trying to explain when using these route planners, and some of the confusion I have surrounding which one to use for the best so that I may upload the route to my device.


Lakeland Lorry and Fernman I certainly would not like to have to call rescue because I was following a boundary or Parish line in the hope of it turning in to a footpath, as well as being somewhere I shouldn't be !  :o  And that was my original difficulty when beginning to view and try to use these route planners. A lot of the time when using OS Maps online, what seem to be footpaths lead directly in to solid black 'boundary' lines, which then seem to turn back in to footpaths. This can hopefully be seen in the Llangollen 1 but when comparing to Lllangollen 2 there is a footpath that goes around the building. And this was not the only time I saw this, there are many other areas I spotted that were the same. And some footpaths weren't even shown on OS Maps online when they were clearly visible using WTP route planner !?  ???  And then other times, more footpaths were indicated when using OS online compared to WTP, as in the Horseshoe 1 & 2 screenshots.


Thanks again guys  O0






Skip

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sussamb

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Re: OS Symbol advice please
« Reply #9 on: 21:17:07, 31/01/18 »
A lot of the time when using OS Maps online, what seem to be footpaths lead directly in to solid black 'boundary' lines, which then seem to turn back in to footpaths.

Grid refs of these black lines would be good, I still can't spot any in that area so no idea what is being talked about  :-\
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Skip

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Re: OS Symbol advice please
« Reply #10 on: 18:25:08, 01/02/18 »
Your screen grab - dropbox.com/s/5b8v2r4nruqi961/Llangollen%202.png?dl=0 - shows 1:50,000 ('Landranger') mapping. Walls and fences are not shown at this scale. 

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Paul H

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Re: OS Symbol advice please
« Reply #11 on: 21:12:06, 01/02/18 »
OK. Well that was a steep learning curve  ;)  Spot the newbie  :o 

Thanks guys for all your input. It's all helped me work out what I was looking at, and what I need to look at  O0  Seems I was looking at a basic layout of routes Here's the reply from OS

"Dear Paul,
Thank you for your email regarding OS Maps.

The mapping in the screenshot provided is the free standard layer of mapping. This does not contain the same information as our Leisure mapping (Explorer and Landranger mapping) available to subscribers of the service. It is generalised and while quite useful for understanding an area isn’t the best for route planning as all the lines are the same colour.

To view Leisure mapping in OS Maps, click on the “Change Map” icon in the bottom right of the screen and select the “OS Leisure Maps” layer. This will give you the accurate rights of way and track information that you have been comparing to in your screenshots.

If you need anything else, please don’t hesitate to come back to us.

I trust this information has been useful to you. Thank you for contacting Ordnance Survey"


Seems I've assumed the detail in the free OS online maps would be enough to plan routes. Not so. Signing up to the 7 day trial of OS Maps, allows access to details of any area in Landranger and Explorer scale. With colour. And clear symbols.

Sorry for any confusion with what I was trying to explain, and thanks again for your input  O0


sussamb

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Re: OS Symbol advice please
« Reply #12 on: 21:28:56, 01/02/18 »
No worries.  Glad you've resolved it  O0
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BuzyG

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Re: OS Symbol advice please
« Reply #13 on: 00:36:56, 03/02/18 »
I'm not quite sure what you're referring to either, but using Bing Maps, with the Ordnance Survey maps switched on, I can't see any bridleways in the vicinity of the Ponderosa Cafe mentioned in your first example.   I can see the green diamond shapes marked along part of the A452 in that area, but that's the OS symbol for a National Trial.

As Tin mentioned, a solid black line on a map is usually a boundary of some kind, such as a fence or wall.   If the wall is tumbled down, or with large gaps in it, then it may be shown as a broken black line. 

Definitive Rights of Way, such as a footpath or bridleway will be shown as a dotted or dashed line, either in red on a 1:50,000 map or in green on a 1:25,000 map.   However, the important thing to realise is that although these rights of ways may be shown on a map, they may not actually exist on the ground.   This is especially true in places like the Lake District, where people have taken an easier route, away from the definitive right of way.   In cases like this, the paths that do actually exist on the ground can sometimes be shown on the maps as black dashed lines. 

A good example of this can be seen in the area a couple of km north east of the Ponderosa Cafe, where the wireless stations are shown on Cyrn-y-Brain.   If you go to www.bing.com/maps and search for Llangollen, then choose Ordnance from the drop down menu, you'll be able to zoom in first to a 1:50km map, and then to a 1:50km map.   If you do that, then you will see the lots of small dotted/dashed black lines appear.   These indicate the actual paths on the ground that have been formed by people walking towards the wireless station.

This website gives a good explanation about rights of ways, and paths on the ground: 
http://www.mountainsafety.co.uk/Nav-Paths-Rights-of-Way-and-Boundaries.aspx


Great link. :)