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Main Boards => General Walking Discussion => Topic started by: gunwharfman on 12:08:42, 16/01/18

Title: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: gunwharfman on 12:08:42, 16/01/18
I decided to take a small step which I hope will increase my hiking security, even a teensy weensy bit. I've been dubious about swipe debit cards for some time now, so I have now been to my bank, handed it back (cut in two) and they have now issued me with a debit card without the swipe facility. Last week an old lady that I know, who is in a residential home, had her card stolen and before anyone knew about it £1200 had been taken from her account.

I have also watched customers in supermarkets, so many people who just swipe without a care in the world, no checking as to what they spent, no receipt, no nothing! even at my local Tesco Express, the same thing, students do exactly the same thing, such trust in the system! Not me!

My bank member of staff told me that the majority of customers do not know that money has been taken out of their account, because they do not check until their statement arrives, or they do not check at all. As she said, we are a rainbow land of fraud, people are so casual with their cards, especially the people under 40-50 years of age.
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: Ridge on 12:22:02, 16/01/18
If you are talking about contactless payments then there is a max spend of £30 per transaction and your bank will have a limit on the number of transactions that you are allowed before you have to use the pin.
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: gunwharfman on 12:25:33, 16/01/18
I was told that the card can be used over and over again each banking day? Maybe my knowledge is wrong but never mind, I've never liked the idea of contactless cards anyway and am pleased to be rid of it.
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: Deolman on 12:28:47, 16/01/18
I had problems with my credit card last year when fraudulent transactions began to appear on my account.  I am very security conscious and check my account on a daily basis so was able to ring the bank straight away but they had already stopped the card because they had detected the 'unusual activity' The point is that this happened shortly after I had booked a number of B & B's in preparation for the C2C walk which I have planned for later this year.  Some of these requested my card details over the phone and I believe that this is where the security breach occurred. I have now ceased to provide my card details over the phone and offer to pay by cheque or BAC's transfer instead.
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: Mel on 12:38:41, 16/01/18
I was told that the card can be used over and over again each banking day? Maybe my knowledge is wrong but never mind, I've never liked the idea of contactless cards anyway and am pleased to be rid of it.


I've heard this as well.  I also asked for a replacement non-contactless card as I think it would be too easy for little scroats to walk past and swipe with a card reader or if your card gets lost the finder could use it if they were of that mindset.

Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: jimbob on 13:48:13, 16/01/18
You can buy RFID secure sleeves,(cost pennies), they do work I've tested them. This stops the passing swipe which seeming was a problem in busy Railway Stations. As for using it in store , I always do, never ask for a receipt as I look at the screen to see what I'm paying for. They are maxed at £30 with only three transactions ( in my case) per day without use of pin. I also check my account regularly.

That is interesting regarding the telephone use though. I tend to use a booking service who have all my details (address etc) and pay them via PayPal (for added security.) Happy I do so now.

You can also get RFID sleeves for your passport which contains a lot of information about you in electronic format nowadays.
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: gunwharfman on 15:54:11, 16/01/18
I stopped paying by telephone some while ago. It suddenly struck me that I was handing over a sum of money to a complete stranger and then suddenly being surprised that my account could easily be cleaned out some months later and saying "How did that happen?" Or its like giving your wallet to a complete stranger.

Anyway, its done now and I'm content. Well, for the moment anyway.
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: Dyffryn Ardudwy on 16:16:34, 16/01/18
I never take my debit or bank cards out into the hills, or out for a long walk.
Unless your out on a real adventure, lasting several day's, when you may need access to your bank account, then its best to take a small amount of cash, or sufficient money to cover your needed expenditures.
You lose the cash, and it upsets you for a while, but you eventually get over it.
Lose your bank cards, ie wallet, full of all those important bit and pieces, and  without realising it, you can be down by a significant amount.
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: pauldawes on 16:27:07, 16/01/18
One of my friends spent a fair amount of his working life as a risk manager.


He keeps two cards, one with a low limit (about 500 quid) for internet and telephone purchases and second for PIN authorised withdrawals. In theory the second one never leaves his sight...never allow it to be taken away by a waiter in a restaurant, for example. Easier said than done in some restaurants abroad.
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: jimbob on 16:28:28, 16/01/18
When I did the Camino I was looking for a prepaid card in Euros, as I had been told they were easily available. I drew a blank then, yes they were available but at a cost. I ended up asking my bank if they could keep an eye on my card whilst I was in Europe and they said they like it when people warn them that their spending would change drastically like that. I also informed them that I would always use my PIN so not to accept anything from France/Spain without PIN. Forward booking was done through a booking agency on the web, and paid via PayPal.

Does anyone know of any cheap ( i.e. free) prepaid cards?
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: gunwharfman on 17:52:59, 16/01/18
A couple of our friends drove to Spain last year from Calais. They loaded lots of money onto a pre-paid card and was told they could use it on the motorway toll booths both in France and in Spain, they needed to get to Murcia. It work all the way through France and then, at the first toll in Spain, the toll machine gobbled up the card. They caused chaos, cars stacked up behind them, loads of people were honking their hooters and some drivers started shouting at them. A member of the toll booth staff came over who did not speak English and they do not speak Spanish, so at first he did not understand what they were talking about. They eventually got it back, over an hour later and have not dared to use one since.

Anyway, another snippit from my bank member of staff. He also asked why I wanted an ordinary debit card. I was happy to tell him I did not trust the security of contactless cards. He said it was very secure but on being pushed by me he did admit that someone could use the card 5 x £30 times in a day before it might be quried. I could see by his face that he was out of his depth and was basically guessing the answers to my questions. As an older person, to me it was just a bright young man who had complete faith in anything that was a gadget.

Also, this afternoon I took one of my clients for a Passport interview which was easy to do, except when it came to signing in to the building. Instead of using a piece of paper and a pen, the receptionist had been given a tablet with its on special security programme downloaded to it. It needed our names and my car registration number but she did not know how to work it. I quckly twigged it was an Ipad, well the keyboard was, so I showed her how to do it. The three of us were in hysterics, great fun.
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: roughyed on 13:31:47, 17/01/18


Does anyone know of any cheap ( i.e. free) prepaid cards?


I use FairFX, there is a small sign up fee.  From memory it was cheaper to sign up via money saving expert website.
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: jimbob on 17:29:31, 17/01/18
Thanks Roughyed, looks like offer has ceased but have book marked the site for further perusal when spine race is finished.
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: Oxenhoper on 23:19:44, 18/01/18
I'd have thought the sort of places one goes hiking would be among the safest of places to take a contactless card.  To extract money from your card, they have to get within about an inch of it and stay there for a couple of seconds.  In effect, they have to press against you in the place you keep your cards. It's pretty rare, in my experience, that a complete stranger gets (and stays) so close to you out on the fells. The danger is in crowded places such as airports or trains where people are pushing past each other. 

Furthermore, they would need good mobile phone coverage to make the transaction, as the banks have now introduced a zero floor limit for contactless transactions.  Out on the fells wouldn't be the obvious place to go to conduct a scam that required good coverage.

Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: gunwharfman on 08:43:35, 19/01/18
If by chance you meet the 'wrong kind of person/people' on a hike, maybe in a village, in or outside a pub, on a campsite, whilst waiting for a bus,coach, train or like me when I hitchhike the issue, as I see it, is your contactless card might, or could be taken from you. Its never happened to me but I accept there is always the chance it could happen?

From the time your contactless card goes missing, your money could be spent by someone else. They do not need your PIN number. The example I have at the moment is an old lady in a residential home who seems to have 'lost' £1200. It hasn't been proved yet but it looks possible that her card was 'borrowed' and the individual who took it then went on a spending spree. If the swipecard is the culprit then the person who had the card made up to 40 purchases with it, from one bank statement to the next. I will know more next Tuesday. It may turn out of course that the money came from her account via another route? All I do know is that the old lady never left the home at all.

I now have a non contactless card, I feel better about it but also realise that even my new card is not foolproof.

Why do you need 'good mobile coverage' for a contactless card? Also I've never heard of 'a zero floor limit for contactless tranactions', what do these words actually mean?

Since last week when we talked about this in the pub, I now know that including my wife and I, 5 other people have handed their contactless cards back to the bank.
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: Addingham on 09:57:21, 19/01/18
There seems to be a lot of paranoia about using Credit Cards. Especially contactless. If nicked they can't be used indefinitely especially if used quickly over time. A rejection then needs the machine to read your pin. .


Plus your bank has to guarantee refunds if used fraudulently unless it was your own stupid fault. The latter is exceptional. IMHO better than carrying cash.


Waiting for the contradictory replies. ;D
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: gunwharfman on 14:30:00, 19/01/18
Do they actually make contactless credit cards? I thought contactless cards were only issued as debit cards? I've just cheacked my credit card, definately not a contactless one.
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: Welsh Rambler on 20:58:19, 19/01/18
Do they actually make contactless credit cards? I thought contactless cards were only issued as debit cards? I've just cheacked my credit card, definately not a contactless one.
They do and I got sent a new card that was contactless. It's locked away for emergencies and I use a non-contactless one.


I had a card cloned once and the scoundrels went through £3k over three months which the bank refunded no problem but it was a faff checking the statement every month and identifying the fraudulent transactions.


Regards Keith
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: gunwharfman on 09:34:51, 21/01/18
I found the following Barclays Bank link interesting. Its bluff because they obviously dont want customers asking about this.

One of my drinking pals and his wife both banks with Barclays. They ordered and have now received two new non-contactless Barclays Debit Cards, they had no problems in getting them. There was a short delay because the young bank staff, at first, could not find how to organise it on his computer. Another older member of staff solved his problem.

https://ask.barclaycard.co.uk/business/allfaqs/1_contactless/alternative
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: gunwharfman on 09:40:15, 21/01/18
Sorry, I pressed the 'post' button too quickly. My friend then took his elderly mother in law to her bank, Lloyds. He asked for a non-contactless card for her, the member of staff was flummoxed and muttered it can't be done. In these circumstances my friend has a great way of dealing with such people, he says nothing but just stares at the other person. The young woman was so unnerved she called a colleauge over who ordered the new card, done in about five minutes!
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: Welsh Rambler on 19:51:28, 21/01/18
What made me distrust the contactless card was at the checkout in Sainsbury's where I took the card out of my pocket and the assistant said 'all done' when I had not put the card on the card reader or anywhere near it!


I like to check the amount on the screen every time and I can remember on holiday buying a jigsaw puzzle for £10.99 but when I checked the screen the amount showed £109.90 because the cashier had added another nought. The girl was very embarrassed and I think it was a genuine mistake but could have been a very expensive puzzle.


Regards Keith
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: ninthace on 20:21:10, 21/01/18
I have several contactless cards including my OAP bus pass and, on occasions, a ski pass. In my experience, if you keep them all together in your wallet the system is incapable of differentiating between them so none of them work! Mrs N has a leather credit card holder with a Faraday cage built in to protect her cards.
In the past, I have had a non contactless cloned but my bank was on the ball and blocked it before I was even aware I had a problem.
IMHO the best security is to keep your cards together in Faraday cage wallet in a zipped pocket and never let a card out of your sight when you use it. To this end contactless cards are superior because you never let go of them.
I have also come across pubs and restaurants that let you run a tab but ask to keep your card behind the bar against payment. I have a dead card that I give them on these occasions - they never check until it is time to pay.
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: jimbob on 21:21:15, 21/01/18
Those Faraday  cage things are  called RFID enabled.  You can buy card sized ones for pennies. I check them out by not taking them out of the case just to be sure they work . To date mine and the ones I bought for family all refuse to cough up the shekels at the scanner until removed from said RFID case.
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: gunwharfman on 11:54:42, 23/01/18
I have now found out the full story of the contactless card saga. The contactless card, it seems, was taken from an old lady in a residential home by an Agency Care Worker just before Christmas. From then on, until the second week in January, the card was used 93 times by under £30 amounts, including 5 spends in convenience stores on Christmas Day, to buy drink and food, but the majority purchases were scratch cards! The card failed 31 times during this period. At no point during this spending spree, or when the card failed to pay up, did the bank (NatWest) attempt do anything! When the niece tried to get some of the money back, the attitude generally was, its not our fault, you need to prove it, perhaps the old lady lent the card to someone, etc.

I believe the cuprit has now been caught, only because the niece and her husband took the time to ring around everywhere to find out if he/she with the card, could be seen on a CCTV camera. In the end Waitrose came up trumps, the member of staff that they phoned was really helpful.

Its very easy why some people want to believe belive that our banks are crooked in some way, what with Barclays appearing to lie in their literature that you cannot have a non-contactless card when plainly you can, to trying to weadle out of any resposibility that they may be at fault themselves in some way. The banks designed these stupid things, they must known the weakeness of them before they persuded the public that they are so wonderful. Or they knowingly did it because they knew that they would be the main benificiary and rake in money by the bucketful because most people (including me for a while) would trust them simply because they are banks.

Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: Mylo on 18:45:01, 23/01/18
Some banks, Nationwide being one - your card will still be able to be used for contactless purchases up to a week after being stopped (if you lost it or had it stolen).

They will refund you for any purchases made after you've reported it but you'd think they'd have found a way to block it when reported.

Another issue that many people aren't aware of is that some petrol pumps now allow contactless up to £30 - again, your card can be used even if there's no money in your account. Much in the same way that if you only have £1 in your account, using chip and pin will allow you to fill up to a maximum of £99.

Petrol pumps can't tell if you have adequate funds or not. As long as there's £1 in your account, it will go through.
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: RuthW on 21:31:08, 24/01/18
Going back to prepaid, the Post Office do quite a good one. We always use it for Euros. Pretty sure it's free too.
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: NeilC on 09:24:28, 25/01/18
So are we saying the banks won't refund money taken illegally on this system?


Seems to me that it's entirely their problem. If they choose to hand out  money on illegal transactions then it's their problem.


According to the FCA: https://www.fca.org.uk/consumers/unauthorised-payments-account (https://www.fca.org.uk/consumers/unauthorised-payments-account) it's pretty cut and dried. You don't even need to report unauthorised payments for 13 months.


I'm guessing it's not as simple in real life?

Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: sussamb on 10:09:14, 25/01/18
Seems that article needs updating as it doesn't specifically cover contactless cards.  I believe the first time you use one you have to enter your PIN.  I've never used my card contactless so have never entered my PIN.  I'm hoping that means no one could ever use it  O0
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: pleb on 10:31:45, 25/01/18
Seems that article needs updating as it doesn't specifically cover contactless cards.  I believe the first time you use one you have to enter your PIN.  I've never used my card contactless so have never entered my PIN.  I'm hoping that means no one could ever use it  O0
Ditto. Dont trust the damn thing.
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: jimbob on 11:37:57, 25/01/18
My experience was from you over ten years ago. I got little help from the bank so reported a theft at the local police station. They were amused but gave me a crime number  I then told the bank that I had reported the theft and gave them the  crime  number.  They went ballistic and phoned me at least four time to state I had no right to report a theft but the money was refunded same day. I wasn't  in the least concerned for their feelings.
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: gunwharfman on 15:33:32, 25/01/18
I read all of our national papers on line most days, saw this in the Sun today

https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/5421483/contactless-card-debit-credit-used-after-cancelled/

If its in the Sun it most be true!  Hee Hee!
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: Doddy on 16:01:39, 26/01/18

In March I am walking a stretch of the Camino de Santaigo, Spain. Does anyone have advice on  prepaid card for over there.
I do have cards but still relive trying to use a Tesco credit card in North Carolina,US - ID backed up with a GB driving licence. The bank cashiers scrutiny of the documents was a magic experience; her shouting to the back office ĴAnyone seen one of these before.' Had to use my passport as ID.
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: lostme1 on 16:22:48, 30/01/18
I asked my bank if I could have contactless debit and credit cards and this is their view

 "You're unable to request a non contactless credit card, we don't have this facility"


But gave the following as assurance.
"While I understand your concerns about this, as a security measure, there's a limit of £30 that this facility can be used for. We've also limited the number of times a Contactless payment can be used as the PIN will be asked for randomly.
 
 Although it's technically possible to obtain the card number and expiry date, there are more straightforward methods of getting this information from the front of a card. This data is of little use and neither the PIN nor the 3 digit security number can be gained in this way.
 
 If your card is used without your say so, you don't need to worry as you can register a Visa Dispute for a refund, providing you are an innocent victim of fraud and have not acted negligently."


They can provide a non contactless debit card but
 1. In line with many other banks, as a Customer who opts out, the card you receive will be an 'On-line' card, which is a different type of card with some reduced use.
 
 2.'On-line' cards only work in situations where the merchant contacts the bank for authorisation and therefore will not work in an 'off-line' environment (e.g. on a train or plane, or at unattended petrol pump).
 
 3. In addition, merchants sometimes have problems with their systems and may switch to an off-line operation, in this event, an 'On-line' card wouldn't work."
 

I think they don't want me to have non contactless cards.


Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: pilgrimgp7 on 17:10:37, 30/01/18


I asked my bank if I could have contactless debit and credit cards and this is their view

 "You're unable to request a non contactless credit card, we don't have this facility"


But gave the following as assurance.
"While I understand your concerns about this, as a security measure, there's a limit of £30 that this facility can be used for. We've also limited the number of times a Contactless payment can be used as the PIN will be asked for randomly.
 
 Although it's technically possible to obtain the card number and expiry date, there are more straightforward methods of getting this information from the front of a card. This data is of little use and neither the PIN nor the 3 digit security number can be gained in this way.
 
 If your card is used without your say so, you don't need to worry as you can register a Visa Dispute for a refund, providing you are an innocent victim of fraud and have not acted negligently."


They can provide a non contactless debit card but
 1. In line with many other banks, as a Customer who opts out, the card you receive will be an 'On-line' card, which is a different type of card with some reduced use.
 
 2.'On-line' cards only work in situations where the merchant contacts the bank for authorisation and therefore will not work in an 'off-line' environment (e.g. on a train or plane, or at unattended petrol pump).
 
 3. In addition, merchants sometimes have problems with their systems and may switch to an off-line operation, in this event, an 'On-line' card wouldn't work."
 

I think they don't want me to have non contactless cards.




BANKS LIE




Very simple answer. You are the customer. The customer is always correct.


 Should the provider, licensee, boss, bank, whoever they are be of an opinion they can take the proverbial & you will let them take said proverbial then they will do. Stand up for what you want & if you do not receive what you want from the vendor, then as vendee, remove your custom. I.E. Take your business elsewhere & I wish you all success but from your tone & language you are struggling to get through to them which they know & are quite happy with. Change the staus quo. Change banks.


They are all a load of shysters but if you are interested in the information I was in HSBC the other day on an appointment I had arranged to open a new bank account with a new bank & like yourself I don't want a contact payment card & I stated that & said should a contact pay card be the only option for new customers I shall take my business elsewhere.


'Not a problem at all' said the kind lady, 'thanks very much' i said, to which she replied, 'had you not said anything you would have received one of the new ones which are now standard issue.'


No thanks.


Go to another bank mate, shut your branch you currently use off, move the accounts. If that's too much hassle for you then it isn't that big of an issue.


Hang Shai Bank of China. HSBC. They'll probably keep your money in Beijing but they'll let you have the card that you want.
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: gunwharfman on 20:52:28, 30/01/18
Lostme1, I'm with the Nationwide, my friend is with Barclays, his mother in law is with Lloyds, my neighbour (who's also taken his card back) is with HSBC, the old lady is, or it could now, WAS with Natwest? All of us have received new non-contactless cards, are you with a different kind of bank, or did you just meet some persuasive spiv at a counter? Yes, banks can lie, just look at the brochure information I posted a few messages back from Barclays. Their information about contactless cards wasn't true. My friend had no difficulty in getting his card changed.
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: gunwharfman on 12:59:53, 06/02/18
I learned today as to how the the misused contactless card saga ended for an old lady in a residential home.

Her card was taken by an Agency Care Worker. He has now been arrested and charged.

The old lady's niece went to NatWest on her behalf and the bank really tried it on to avoid taking any resposibility for her loss. The niece persevered, had to get stroppy with them but achieved a full refund. Her 'leverage' which won the day was to forcefully remind the Natwest that loads of swipe card transactions had failed, but the bank didn't notice, or perhaps couldn't be bothered?

As the niece said to me this morning, if an old person, or any other vulnerable person does not have anyone who can advocate for them, they are just sitting targets for criminal fraudsters, or for 'respectable' shoddy organisations, like banks. Why should they care if an old lady has been ripped off, to them she's just another sucker!

I was in the pub on Saturday, I now know of 11 people who have taken their contactless cards back for ordinary ones.
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: gunwharfman on 17:57:05, 19/02/18
Two or three intersting articles about cards and money in the Guardian today, Sweden evidently uses cards most. On a day to day basis I've not found using cards a problem, also sufficient hole in the walls are a available, as I've experienced it, both here and in France. The one place when I am home I will NEVER take a card is when I go to the pub! Our barmaid tells us that with a card so many people just overspend, a round here, a round there, drink loosens their good judgement and some just go over the top. So much so it seems that on a Saturday or Sunday morning she often gets calls from both men and women, esecially those up to about 30yrs asking her to check if they really did spend that! She most often checks and then says YES you did!

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/feb/19/peak-cash-over-uk-rise-of-debit-cards-unbanked-contactless-payments
Title: Re: Personal security whilst hiking.
Post by: gunwharfman on 13:14:36, 21/02/18
Saw this today -


https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/feb/21/i-dont-use-contactless-the-woman-whose-name-is-on-british-banknotes