Walking Forum
Main Boards => General Walking Discussion => Topic started by: lostme1 on 13:25:57, 15/08/19
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Just seen this on the BBC web site https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-49319760
Does anyone know anything about it, supposedly used by some emergency services.
I have never heard of it. Given that a number of emergency services only understand post codes and not the OS grid references or latitude and longitude which many outdoor users have as a means of pinpointing their location, what hope is there for this.
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I'm aware of it, it's an interesting idea. It's really just an easy to remember equivalent of latitude/longitude and less error prone when communicating. I don't know how much advantage it would be in practice, I've no experience in these things.
You need to know your location: I currently don't have any location-aware device so it wouldn't help me. If you do have such a device, you can (presumably) just read off your GPS coordinates or, in the case of e.g. MRT, let them be read remotely. There is an app to convert to 3-word format, I guess its success depends on wide acceptance.
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It's useful and from a MR point of view, it's the difference in searching a huge forested area (like in that article) and having a precise location to go to is the difference between 40+ people spending 8 hours searching and 3 people getting there in 30 minutes and being able to render immediate care. MR are able to find a precise location from your phone but only if you are actively co-operating to do so, cell phone triangulation doesn't give much of a precise area whatsoever, unfortunately, though it is better than nothing.
Also, it's super quick. Open app, press 'locate', press the phrase with your finger to copy it to the clipboard (or say to an emergency operator on the phone) then you can do what you want with it. Takes about five seconds. Because it's so quick, when you set camp for the evening you may want to send a text to someone to let them know where you are - and then they in turn are more likely to use that phrase on the website than a string of co-ordinates. I think that accessibility/speed is the reason it is worth using.
Obviously it isn't going to be as useful for those of us who can read off grid references, lat/long and have people to communicate to who can understand those things - but as a more accessible tool for casual walkers as well as offers good reassurance if you're planning a more remote trip yet have the ability to send sms.
For those who use ViewRanger, you're able to use the BuddyBeacon feature which allows someone you trust (who you have given a username and password to) to track you whilst on a walk/away, but only when you have a cell data connection. It isn't especially intuitive on their website either, so whilst you may have some joy with it once a person is used to the system - it puts a few extra steps into the chain - but takes such a minor amount of data/power I'd use the feature anyway just in case.
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We use this (apparently) at work. Something that was mentioned when the powers that be were selling us the idea was that you don't need to be able to understand English to use it. The three words are just read out - no need to know what they mean or for them to be translated.
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We have it on our website - more useful than the postcode which takes people to the wrong location. It was quite good fun selecting which grid to use.
I have read that the what 3 words is useful for large places with several entrances eg public, trade etc etc.
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Just heard about this on here....is it from the same stable as the whats app messaging thing?
All that I have is the 'OS Locate' on my phone...not used it for real...only a try with the location sent to my home using the 'Share' feature. 100 kl. square two letters together with the six figure map reference numerals to give position...it was with reception on a Scottish hillside. Not yet tried in a thick forest plantation.
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What’sapp is owned by Facebook - or so google tells me.
What3words is owned/set up and run from London.
I’m not sure about its ‘rescue’ uses as I expect you need some form of 3G signal which can’t be guaranteed. But as a way of pinpointing exact locations for those who don’t use GR then it’s accessible to most people.
Here’s a link https://what3words.com/about-us/ (https://what3words.com/about-us/)
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Some of the taxis around here are using it to find locations in rural areas where a postcode isn’t good enough.
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I’m not sure about its ‘rescue’ uses as I expect you need some form of 3G signal which can’t be guaranteed. But as a way of pinpointing exact locations for those who don’t use GR then it’s accessible to most people.
Here’s a link https://what3words.com/about-us/ (https://what3words.com/about-us/)
I just tried it and it works in aeroplane mode on my phone so it is independent of a phone signal.
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This again! It's been around years and failed. Now they've convinced some urban emergency services to push it for them in favour of superior and non-profit alternatives. Scottish Mountain Rescue's statement pretty much says it all: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2339541036083375&id=337733089597523
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This again! It's been around years and failed. Now they've convinced some urban emergency services to push it ..
And some rural ones too. Our control room staff are poised, ready and waiting for their first caller to use this referencing system ;D
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This again! It's been around years and failed. Now they've convinced some urban emergency services to push it for them in favour of superior and non-profit alternatives. Scottish Mountain Rescue's statement pretty much says it all: https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2339541036083375&id=337733089597523 (https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2339541036083375&id=337733089597523)
What are the superior alternatives (in particular for an urban/semi-urban environment) ?
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Here's an aspect of W3W I just discovered that puts the scheme in a different light:-
Their algorithms and databases of addresses that are mapped to true gps coordinates are all proprietary, and they have specific terms and conditions to prevent people reverse engineering or even storing the database.
Not good - at all.
Another point worth mentioning is that there is absolutely no geographical relationship to be discerned between two points referenced by W3W. They might be metres apart or thousands of kilometres apart, you can't tell from the words.
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SORRY NO SIGNAL
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SORRY NO SIGNAL
Is that your location?
I believe if the app is downloaded it does not need a signal to locate you - it uses an algorithm based on your gps position - you can check this by downloading the app and using it in aeroplane mode. Of course you do need a signal to send a location however, but that is true of all such apps.
It a good system for giving a position; 3 words are easier to remember and pass than a grid reference of equivalent accuracy.
Edit: Just tried in plane mode - works fine.
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I understand the benefit of using 3 words. It was an interesting system when is appeared a few years ago. It didn't, however, make them enough profit.
Basically, I find that using the emergency services to further profit-making to be unpalatable.
If you have enough signal to send a text, you can copy and paste an exact location from any of a host of existing free apps. That then cuts out the middle bit of remembering something and then communicating it.
Really, the drive should be to things like SARLOC where location information is sent device to device, though I'd prefer a standardised app that people could have pre-installed on their device.
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I understand the benefit of using 3 words. It was an interesting system when is appeared a few years ago. It didn't, however, make them enough profit.
Basically, I find that using the emergency services to further profit-making to be unpalatable.
If you have enough signal to send a text, you can copy and paste an exact location from any of a host of existing free apps. That then cuts out the middle bit of remembering something and then communicating it.
Really, the drive should be to things like SARLOC where location information is sent device to device, though I'd prefer a standardised app that people could have pre-installed on their device.
I think rather than market it as a SAR app, the main intention is to make profit from other commercial organisations - for example it works in conjunction with Google Maps or Uber. Or at least that is the impression I have from the website. That said, if you have to send someone in your party, or a passing stranger, to hike a mile or more to get a signal, it might be handy.
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Hello,
Is there not a system of registering your phone number on the 999 feature to assist in getting a message through to the rescue services in the event of having poor reception?
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Hello,
Is there not a system of registering your phone number on the 999 feature to assist in getting a message through to the rescue services in the event of having poor reception?
http://www.emergencysms.net/registering_your_mobile_phone.php (http://www.emergencysms.net/registering_your_mobile_phone.php)
If you haven't done it - do it now! SMS can get through when voice cannot.
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Many thanks for that....as you say no excuses for anyone not to do it.
That combined with the read out of location from the OS Locate should be very helpful.
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The reason they're advertising so heavily is to force the emergency services to pay them to use it.
Os locate works and the emergency services know that, honestly w3w isn't something we should be pushing
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The reason they're advertising so heavily is to force the emergency services to pay them to use it.
Os locate works and the emergency services know that, honestly w3w isn't something we should be pushing
But do not forget W3W is a global system whereas OS locate only works within the OS grid. The pitch is wider than UK emergency services. I suspect its one biggest application is logistics. There are over 27 properties in my cost code where as there are more than 27 3m squares inside my boundary - no more "we couldn't find you" messages.
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But do not forget W3W is a global system whereas OS locate only works within the OS grid. The pitch is wider than UK emergency services. I suspect its one biggest application is logistics. There are over 27 properties in my cost code where as there are more than 27 3m squares inside my boundary - no more "we couldn't find you" messages.
If you use OS Locate outside the UK it gives lat long. Not sure why people bring this up whenever someone mentions OS locate...
Yes logistics may use it but they're heavily advertising the emergency services in their ads trying to force them to use it so they can get regular payments out of them. Disgusting business practices
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Yes logistics may use it but they're heavily advertising the emergency services in their ads trying to force them to use it so they can get regular payments out of them. Disgusting business practices
Sorry I haven't seen their ads - just their web site which is not pushing emergency services (https://what3words.com/business/ (https://what3words.com/business/)): the tab headings on the business element of the site are Automotive, Ride Hailing, Navigation, Travel, E-Commerce, Logistics, Emergency, Government, GIS and Humanitarian.
OS Locate is advertised as a walkers aid. It has no advantage that I can see over W3W for use by the non-mapreading members of Joe Public so the issue would be one of cost to the user and the Emergency Services. Now that OS is run as an Agency, as far as I am aware, its products are no longer free, even to government https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/ (https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/)
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Emergency Services don't make money / are not-for-profit organisations.
If this quote (taken from their "About Us - FAQs" page) is anything to go by then they can't charge the Emergency Services for signing up/using it:
Is what3words open source?
Addressing is a vital piece of infrastructure and building a global, multilingual address system tackles huge economic and social problems. However, a great deal of resource is needed to create and maintain such a solution.
We’ve developed a business model that works for everybody. what3words is not open source and our focus is on having the right commercial solutions for different users: the system is free to use for most people, while companies that use the service to make money pay a fee. This approach ensures both the scalability and sustainability of the what3words solution.
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The thing that leaves a bitter taste in my mouth is the using of the emergency services to create awareness and push users to adopt their system so they can then leverage that in their commercial arm.
It is a neat idea and pretty well implemented. However, it has only really started to take off (after many years of being around) due to this push with emergency services.
If it wasn't a profit-making move they should have made their database available to others or made their own emergency app separate to their commercial one.
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The thing that leaves a bitter taste in my mouth is the using of the emergency services to create awareness and push users to adopt their system so they can then leverage that in their commercial arm.
The only stories I have seen those put out by the BBC where I suspect "This app could save your life!" rather than "This app could help DHL find your house!" or "This app could get you an Uber" is just better copy. What have I missed?
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In a capitalist economy, if the emergency services are used, I assume it helps to secure employment and possibly create new jobs as well? I may be wrong of course.
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In a capitalist economy, if the emergency services are used, I assume it helps to secure employment and possibly create new jobs as well? I may be wrong of course.
But if the emergency services are paying fees to use it, they may cut the numbers to cover the cost
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The head of mountain rescue volunteers in the Lake District has told hikers not to rely on What3words, a mapping app used by more than eight out of ten emergency services and the AA.
The app has divided the world into 3m squares and given each one a unique three-word address that can be given to rescuers to help find people in trouble. It is used by Cumbria police, which has called it a brilliant app and a life-saver.
However, Richard Warren, chairman of the Lake District Search and Mountain Rescue Association, said: “What3words is an ingenious system, but we do not rely on it. The first resort should always be a map and compass to try to navigate your own way out of trouble. Then a call to 999 and stay put.
“A couple of days ago Wasdale [Mountain Rescue] was called to an incident and was 100 metres adrift. That may not sound much but in blizzards it can be crucial. On November 20 Wasdale was called to a group lost on the Scafell range and the What3words location was three or four miles away.”
He said that mishearing or misspelling words tended to cause problems.
What3words said that the app was not intended as a replacement for learnt navigation skills, and added: “We are another location tool that can be useful when existing methods may not be known, preferable or practical.
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Well he is right about one thing. W3W is useless for navigating as there is no logic to the grid it uses, but it wasn't really meant for that. With the Nat Grid you can easily divine if your required location is N S E or W of your current location.
As for his point about blizzards though - if you are out in a real whiteout, a map and compass are also virtually useless for working out where you are. Even if you start from a known point, errors soon creep in if you can only see a few feet so you would have to be a lot more practised than the average punter Under those circumstances, I prefer my electronic aids that can tell where I am to within a few feet. Using electronics in really bad visibility, I have almost literally bumped into my target before I have seen it.
I still have W3W on my phone though. That way, if I need help, I can give my location in W3W, National Grid or Lat Long, whatever the person on the other end wants - under those circumstances, it would be no time to be proud
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Don't knock it, it may be all you have... Surely better than nothing!!
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Don't knock it, it may be all you have... Surely better than nothing!!
If you are out 'on the hill' and all you have is What3Words then you are not sufficiently prepared.
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I have heard that if you need an ambulance out in the countryside, they may ask you for your post code. It this true and is there an app for it? :)
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I have heard that if you need an ambulance out in the countryside, they may ask you for your post code. It this true and is there an app for it? :)
I have heard the same but don't know if it is true
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If you are out 'on the hill' and all you have is What3Words then you are not sufficiently prepared.
I view it as an addition to my arsenal of safety aids.
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Just installed it.
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I have heard that if you need an ambulance out in the countryside, they may ask you for your post code. It this true and is there an app for it? :)
I've no doubt that they will ask - but what use is a postcode on the hill?
As for an app, I found this - https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.tevp.postcode&hl=en
Don't know anything about it, and I will not be installing it.
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An alternative is OS's LOCATE app, which gives a 6 figure grid ref of your current location.
I've installed that as well, although is less precise. No harm in having both.
Important thing about these apps is to turn them off when not needed - they will drain your battery.
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Both GPS devices and the ViewRanger app will give your location as a Grid Ref to a ridiculous number of digits (12 excl letters). Interestingly, as far as I can tell, the OS mapping app doesn’t.
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An alternative is OS's LOCATE app, which gives a 6 figure grid ref of your current location.
I've installed that as well, although is less precise. No harm in having both.
Important thing about these apps is to turn them off when not needed - they will drain your battery.
That looks a bit elaborate just to get a grid ref. I have on my Windows Phone (I know...) an app called GPS To Grid Ref which when opened displays a choice of 6 or 8 figure reference of my current location. I often use it when I'm unsure of precisely where I am (aka lost). It doesn't need a signal, it simply converts the phone's inbuilt GPS to a OS ref. I'd be surprised if there isn't something similar available for Android and iOS phones.
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There is, but as I have ViewRanger I don't bother :)
Here's one https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.blerg&hl=en_GB
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I have heard/read, not sure which, that the what3words app is a very large app and will use up a lot of memory on the phone. Is this true?
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I have heard/read, not sure which, that the what3words app is a very large app and will use up a lot of memory on the phone. Is this true?
Google says it is 10Mb
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Google also says that you probably need a different app for each country you visit as w3w uses the native language of each country. If you have the English app the world is given English words, if the French app the same locations have French words.
Seemingly if you can get a phone signal (which clearly you would need in order to ring the emergency services) then they can tell where you are fairly easily through triangulation of your signal anyway, even if you can't tell them your grid ref.
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I have heard that if you need an ambulance out in the countryside, they may ask you for your post code. It this true and is there an app for it? :)
Yes they do, they also ask if the patient is conscious are they breathing, they tend to work from a script in a specific order, and very stuborn if you do answer them, as the information they ask for is essential to prioritise. If you don't have a post code, they will take other coordinates. I work for the emergency service and we have used the W3W a few times to help us locate victims who are hiding from their attacker or if someone has come across a person in distress, or where people are not sure exactly where they are. It has been very successful and saved a lot of time and resources. But you can also give any of ther services a grid reference or longitude and latitude coordinates, and we will find you.W3W is okay for providing a specific location, but useless for navigation as said in an earlier post. It does take up a bit of memory but no more any many other apps. If you can get a phone signal, it is okay I guess, but if out in the hill, I will always stick to a grid ref or long & lat to give emergency services my position.
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Yes they do, they also ask if the patient is conscious are they breathing, they tend to work from a script in a specific order, and very stuborn if you do answer them, as the information they ask for is essential to prioritise. If you don't have a post code, they will take other coordinates. I work for the emergency service and we have used the W3W a few times to help us locate victims who are hiding from their attacker or if someone has come across a person in distress, or where people are not sure exactly where they are. It has been very successful and saved a lot of time and resources. But you can also give any of ther services a grid reference or longitude and latitude coordinates, and we will find you.W3W is okay for providing a specific location, but useless for navigation as said in an earlier post. It does take up a bit of memory but no more any many other apps. If you can get a phone signal, it is okay I guess, but if out in the hill, I will always stick to a grid ref or long & lat to give emergency services my position.
If it was an emergency (not just my feet are tired) then I would use my PLB (I know we have had this discussion before ………….)
Battery power available for 6+ years
No flat battery
No telephone signal needed
No need to scroll down dozens of apps trying to find the right one (when you have a broken arm)
No trying to read, remember, & repeat three random, meaningless words, then having to spell them phonetically because the operator couldn't hear you very well.
No monthly charges
Will notify the SAR within 5 minutes giving your GPS location
Works worldwide on land, sea or air
Has a 121.5Mhz homing beacon to get SAR to within a meter of you.
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Yorci - "If you can get a phone signal, it is okay I guess, but if out in the hill, I will always stick to a grid ref or long & lat to give emergency services my position".
If you haven't got a phone signal how are you going to give the emergency services your position in any format ?
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Hello.... OS Locate and share on the mobile perhaps.
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Yorci - "If you can get a phone signal, it is okay I guess, but if out in the hill, I will always stick to a grid ref or long & lat to give emergency services my position".
If you haven't got a phone signal how are you going to give the emergency services your position in any format ?
Use the SMS emergency system. It works on a weak or fleeting signal. https://www.emergencysms.net/ (https://www.emergencysms.net/)
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Use the SMS emergency system. It works on a weak or fleeting signal. https://www.emergencysms.net/ (https://www.emergencysms.net/)
It works by finding another provider (all 999 calls do this - either voice or SMS)
If there is no provider service where you are then you get no service.
Googles answer :
Emergency calls can be made on any mobile phone network, not just your own. If you are somewhere where your network doesn't have reception but another does, you get Emergency Calls Only. If no networks have any signal, you'll be told there is no reception and you can't even make 999 calls.
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But Google's answer is not the whole answer. I refer you to my last sentence. An SMS message works on a lower standard of signal and the reception does not need to last very long for the message to pass. However, your phone has to be registered so do it now folks, don't wait until you need it.
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But Google's answer is not the whole answer. I refer you to my last sentence. An SMS message works on a lower standard of signal and the reception does not need to last very long for the message to pass. However, your phone has to be registered so do it now folks, don't wait until you need it.
OK, but I just see it as a complication when you are in an emergency situation, according to your link, you need to text 999 with the following information :
Which service you require
Description of the problem
Exactly where you are
(https://i.postimg.cc/LqtqB6mH/Screenshot-64.png) (https://postimg.cc/LqtqB6mH)
This last is a highlighted issue (by several emergency services) in that you need to get your W3W App and find your location and remember it (exactly), go onto your text screen / app and then include those 3 words in your text.
I'm not particularly adept at texting (all stiff fingers and thumbs) and being Diabetic the circulation in my fingers is the first to go in cold weather.
The problem highlighted is that if your W3W are (say) "Understanding : Horse : Rainbows" but when you come to type it out you remember (say) "Understand : Horses : Rainbow", those odd few missing / extra letters will mean you are not where you say you are.
It is a free choice, I just personally see too many possibilities for errors in time of pain and stress.
Each to their own.
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Just tried on my Android phone. I called up my location in the W3W app and held my finger on the location readout at the top of the screen and it automatically copied the location to the clipboard. I then opened the SMS messager and pasted the location into it. I could have pasted it into the memo/note app as well rather than try to remember it. That should save your fingers. I am not sure if the OS Locate app has a cut and paste option to do the same. I cannot copy my grid ref from ViewRanger though so that would be a typing job. In extremis, I would copy it across to the memo/note pad and check it rather than try to remember it.
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You got me wondering there, Ninthace, so I opened up the GPS to Grid Ref app on my phone, which confirmed that I am sitting on my sofa at home, and I clicked on the 'three dots' menu at the lower right corner of the screen, which revealed an option to share current location. Selecting this gave me a choice of sharing by Messaging or Mail, and messaging opened a compose text screen saying I am at OS grid reference TQ xxxx xxxx, and I am with 28m of OS grid ref (as before), Latitude xx.xxxx, Longitude -x.xxxx
Very handy, but I'm not sure who I would send the text to :-\
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Well if your leg was broken, you could SMS it to 999 telling them it was broke because, of course, your phone is registered. I am not sure what would happen if you used it to order stuff from Amazon or Tesco though - give it a try O0
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You got me wondering there, Ninthace, so I opened up the GPS to Grid Ref app on my phone, which confirmed that I am sitting on my sofa at home, and I clicked on the 'three dots' menu at the lower right corner of the screen, which revealed an option to share current location. Selecting this gave me a choice of sharing by Messaging or Mail, and messaging opened a compose text screen saying I am at OS grid reference TQ xxxx xxxx, and I am with 28m of OS grid ref (as before), Latitude xx.xxxx, Longitude -x.xxxx
Very handy, but I'm not sure who I would send the text to :-\
There is a share button in W3W too which you can share with SMS on you phone or your contacts. You can edit the share text message settings in the app so it includes a link to your location, an explanation of what W3W is for the recipient and a hyperlink to your location. It can also include your location in lat long as any of WGS84, degrees mins secs, degrees decimal minutes. There is even a choice of language to share the message in.
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Just tried on my Android phone. I called up my location in the W3W app and held my finger on the location readout at the top of the screen and it automatically copied the location to the clipboard. I then opened the SMS messager and pasted the location into it. I could have pasted it into the memo/note app as well rather than try to remember it. That should save your fingers. I am not sure if the OS Locate app has a cut and paste option to do the same. I cannot copy my grid ref from ViewRanger though so that would be a typing job. In extremis, I would copy it across to the memo/note pad and check it rather than try to remember it.
Thank you, maybe not as difficult as I expected.
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Thanks Ninthace, so 999 it will be, if god forbid I should ever need to do it.
With of course the added message: Help! I'm tired and I've got sore legs.
I am not sure what would happen if you used it to order stuff from Amazon or Tesco though - give it a try O0
;D ;D ;D
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I wonder what the location for the 3 words “No f’ing idea” is?
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I wonder what the location for the 3 words “No f’ing idea” is?
;D ;D ;D .
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Hello....I am registered with the 999 number ….appears as 999 on my list of Messaging folks. Ready to press if needed.
With the OS Locate system that I have used as a trial to contact my wife with the two alpha letters and the six figure numerals....press the Share button and choose Message or e mail to automatically relay the data... i.e. your Map Reference.
She then would have to relay the data to the emergency services.
I guess works in the same way as the emergency SMS...that of getting data through with the minimum of reception?
Emergency SMS will be direct with perhaps no room for error in the Data relayed?
Thanks to 'ninthace' for putting me on to this facility.