This pair was indeed very fortunate

[Cathy]

Tricky one about charging but a donation could be requested from those needing rescue services. I think people should attend a course to learn how to use a map and compass and appropriate footwear & clothing if they don't already know. It must be the scariest thing to be lost up a mountain with the weather closing in and darkness descending. I can only dream of mountains not usually getting further than local footpaths, the worse that happens is I get wet and muddy 

[barewirewalker]

There are very big mountains and many people may go onto them and not find out how big they are, until they venture onto that part that tells you just how big they are. I was privileged to climb the Trinity Gullies in winter conditions that made that side of Snowden a great climb, but it is an awesome place to be, it is possible to be afraid just standing under that face.


The MRT must have had difficulty just finding them there, let alone safely getting them off, but my heart goes out to the 11 year old boy, has he been traumatized by the experience. The visual images alone will be difficult to deal with, especially if the vulnerability of their situation was not dealt with some understanding.


Should the father be punished, perhaps through the courts, as other forms of irresponsible parenting is dealt with, that might help curb this sort of irresponsible venture.

If I were a member of that MRT I would consider inviting that boy back for a more realistic visit to the mountain.

[Ridge]

What you do have to think about if you start charging people is will they actually phone for help or just continue to try and get themselves off the mountain. If they can't afford the £250 fine they won't seek help. I'm against fining people for needing help, if they want to contribute afterwards I'm sure they will/do but fining them is not the way to go imho.

I agree Sparklebug.
I suppose you could quite easily work out how much it costs per man hour to run the MRT and then tell people the cost of their 150 man hour operation and point out that the money has to be raised by the team.

[Paulr]

What you do have to think about if you start charging people is will they actually phone for help or just continue to try and get themselves off the mountain. If they can't afford the £250 fine they won't seek help. I'm against fining people for needing help, if they want to contribute afterwards I'm sure they will/do but fining them is not the way to go imho.

If Im stupid enough to not prepare properly, or not have sufficient equipment, tools or knowledge to go into the great outdoors, why should I expect someone to risk their own lives (unpaid and in their own time) to rescue me without some sort of payment in gratitude. 
 
What you are saying is similar to a car driver that runs out of fuel or breaks down and doesnt have breakdown cover should expect a recovery company to help them for free ? 
 
Recovery companies have call-out charges - why cant MRTs ?

[sparklebug]

Because everyone makes mistakes or rash decisions. If I had fallen on Saturday I would have been extremely grateful for being rescued but I couldn't have afforded a 250 quid fine but I would have made a donation and would have done something to raise money for them.  Where do you draw the line at fines? Would you fine someone who is drowning and needs help from the lifeboats? they after all are also volunteers.  As I also said only these volunteers can decide if they think a fine is the right way to go and according to the member who is a volunteer the answer is no.

I was going to edit this as I didn't want an argument but I was quoted by Paul

[Paulr]

Because everyone makes mistakes or rash decisions. If I had fallen on Saturday I would have been extremely grateful for being rescued but I couldn't have afforded a 250 quid fine but I would have made a donation and would have done something to raise money for them.  Where do you draw the line at fines? Would you fine someone who is drowning and needs help from the lifeboats? they after all are also volunteers.  As I also said only these volunteers can decide if they think a fine is the right way to go and according to the member who is a volunteer the answer is no.

Rescuing people who have fallen or had a mishap is obviously a good reason to call MRTs - accidents happen and noboby would quibble about these types of rescue.  People going out at night dressed only in pyjamas, or people setting off to late and with insufficient equipment/knowledge are stupid, so why should they expect a service that they dont pay for ?
 
I wonder what the overall cost of the 150 man hours was and whether MRTs can continue to operate if these types of incidents increasingly occur ?
 
 

[sparklebug]

I do understand what you're saying, I really do dread to think how much money is spent and how much they need to raise to help people but if someone is daft enough to walk up a mountain without a map, compass etc then they're the ones who won't phone for help because they wouldn't want to pay money to be rescued, I just have a foreboding feeling that there will be more fatalities

[Paulr]

I do understand what you're saying, I really do dread to think how much money is spent and how much they need to raise to help people but if someone is daft enough to walk up a mountain without a map, compass etc then they're the ones who won't phone for help because they wouldn't want to pay money to be rescued, I just have a foreboding feeling that there will be more fatalities

Its natures way........I think its called natural culling       (the smileys mean Im joking)

[sparklebug]

hahahaha Yeah I knew that

[Tiberius Baltar]

Its a tough one to call isn't it? Im just grateful that these guys are willing to be woken up in the middle of the night and get themselves up there to help.


The problem stems from the popularity and advertisements surrounding Snowdon. It's a summit I have never done (I know its amazing and I really should get round to it) but if you are going to build a visitor centre with a gift shop and a cafe then you run the risk of turning what is a very dangerous environment into something similar to the great orme.


Snowdonia National Park Authority can't have it both ways. They obviously want as many people up there as possible but don't seem to be capable of controlling the increasing number of sandle wearing day trippers that attempt the ascent. Until people are told or shown how dangerous the area is then this will just keep happening.


Just as an afterthought though, how much of the tourist revenue that is created around the mountain within the local businesses and museums and attractions is set aside for the MRT? Maybe it is time for the locals who benefit from the trade the mountain creates get together and come up with a way of helping the MRT out? Apologies if this is already the case but it seems that whenever anyone is rescued by the MRT or RNLI then its usually an inexperienced group with insufficient equipment and lack of basic skills.


Its good getting lots of tourists through to spend money but there needs to be responsibilty from both sides of the coin. Not just people shaking their heads and saying "tsk" all the time.


Lucky [censored] though!   

[Oxenhoper]

Rescuing people who have fallen or had a mishap is obviously a good reason to call MRTs - accidents happen and noboby would quibble about these types of rescue.  People going out at night dressed only in pyjamas, or people setting off to late and with insufficient equipment/knowledge are stupid, so why should they expect a service that they dont pay for ?
 
I wonder what the overall cost of the 150 man hours was and whether MRTs can continue to operate if these types of incidents increasingly occur ?

Fortunately, the MRT's are tun by people with a more generous spirit than you!

[pauldawes]

I

Snowdonia National Park Authority can't have it both ways. They obviously want as many people up there as possible but don't seem to be capable of controlling the increasing number of sandle wearing day trippers that attempt the ascent. Until people are told or shown how dangerous the area is then this will just keep happening.

Hi, Tiberius. I think you're being a bit harsh in your assessment of Snowdonia National Park, and placing a burden of expectation on them that's unfair.


Yes, they want as many visitors as possible.  But I can't see anything they have done that would lead a sensible adult to believe strolling up Snowdon with no appropriate clothing and no route knowledge is a safe thing to do. I reckon to blame them is akin to blaming Blackpool Tourist board for all those intrepid "sailors" who believe its safe to float out to sea on a Lilo.


At some point surely adults have to be responsible for their own safety, rather than seek to blame the rest of society for "failure" to give endless advise, etc.


I actually think present system works pretty well, thanks to wonderful MRT volunteers.... and pretty generous UK government.... and doesn't need substantial change. I'd hate to see a scramble in country turned into a bureaucratically controlled exercise (or rescues means tested!) , because of a handful of extreme cases.


Paul

[Tiberius Baltar]

Hi, Tiberius. I think you're being a bit harsh in your assessment of Snowdonia National Park, and placing a burden of expectation on them that's unfair.


Yes, they want as many visitors as possible.  But I can't see anything they have done that would lead a sensible adult to believe strolling up Snowdon with no appropriate clothing and no route knowledge is a safe thing to do. I reckon to blame them is akin to blaming Blackpool Tourist board for all those intrepid "sailors" who believe its safe to float out to sea on a Lilo.

I understand exactly what you mean. Maybe my message sounded a bit harsher than I intended it to (its difficult to gauge strength of opinion on forums as people read with their own inner voice and it changes the tone of the post).
I just feel that in situations like this where voluteers are regularly needed to keep people safe then surely the community that thrives of the area (whether that be a coastal town or a village on the fringe of a mountain) then a percentage of their council taxes could be set aside to at least reimburse these brave volunteers for thier time and equipment?
We will never fully solve the problem of people's stupidity and accidents will always happen but to rely on volunteers who are funded by charitable donations seems like the hardest and most short sighted way of doing it. If the local council is prepared to pay for a traffic warden to spend the day ticketing cars around the roads of Snowdonia then surely they could set aside £10 000 to supply and help these guys and girls who risk themselves saving people?
It disgusts me how much money is wasted on bureaucratic waffle and nonsense when it could be used to supplement worthwhile causes like MRT. Or would we then have a situation where companies would try and profit from a setup like this? Its difficult to fix unfortunately.

[pauldawes]

It disgusts me how much money is wasted on bureaucratic waffle and nonsense when it could be used to supplement worthwhile causes like MRT. Or would we then have a situation where companies would try and profit from a setup like this? Its difficult to fix unfortunately.

Had a wry grin at that.... because I guess that's precisely how large majority of us feel. But.... blimey... it seems well nigh impossible to cut down on the bureaucratic waffle and nonsense, primarily because it benefits too many people in system that actually make key decisions.


And I certainly agree with you that "internet dialogue" can make 2 persons view of a subject "poles apart" when reality is that same two people chatting away face to face would be in broad agreement after a 5 minute chat.

[PistonPete]

Maybe there should be a "compulsory" rescue pack that people could purchase for a small fee. This would contain a survival bag, Whistle, Lightstick and Waterproof instruction leaflet.  Once bought it's good for life (well the life of the lightstick) but at least the MRT would be able to find these people more easily.  Seems they spend a lot of time looking for the people that they could find quicker or easier if they could hear or see them.

Just a thought and yes, I know it would be difficult to get people to buy one possibly, but if bought and used, the media could then highlight the fact that "So and so were found quickly and easily because they'd purchased a rescue kit" or whatever you want to call it, sewing the seeds in peoples minds that it's a good idea rather than forcing them.

Another idea would be to have a Booth set up at the popular approaches to Mountains which simply say "First time up?  Talk to us first, we're here to help" Then experienced people could advise and talk to folk, asking questions like "How long do you think it will take you?" and "How much food and water do you think you'll need?"

If MRT were doing this, or someone collecting for them, they could sell additional food, water, rescue packs and the money would go to the MRT.

Right that's it, out of bright ideas and energy and it's not even 9am