Author Topic: All the Gear, No idea!!!  (Read 8936 times)

Vagabond

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Re: All the Gear, No idea!!!
« Reply #15 on: 17:11:49, 10/01/14 »
Shades of Nick Crane but I have even considered carrying a small telescopic umbrella just to give a wind break to be able to adjust / change clothing.

 ??? Ever tried putting an umbrella up in the wind?  and who`s going to hold on to the brolly time you`re getting changed -
?  unless you`ve got  two pair of hands!! Re your gloves, stick `em in your pocket, not in your bag, or better still put  `em on before you set off - it is January!!!


SadlerPete

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Re: All the Gear, No idea!!!
« Reply #16 on: 08:56:05, 11/01/14 »
Peter:- Gloves, including silk liners, were the first item in the top of the sack  >:( . Strip to my vest in 50mph winds, with torrential rain hmmm don't think so. :o . Appraise route, why? Walk was completed without serious problem, just got a bit wet O0 . If you walk in Winter then you should expect atrocious weather, we did / do ::) . Perhaps the weather is sometimes seen as part of the challenge, of course it is. I was merely looking for some tips n tricks, like some members have given.
archaeoroutes:- Great idea about stashing gear in diif. colour waterproof bags, nice tip O0 .
Vagabond:- Oh you are a one ;D . My wife and I always walk together, ooh there's the spare pair of hands O0 . As for putting it up, well, as a sailor I'd always turn into the wind before hoisting a sail. And as for putting on the gloves prior to needing them, well I suppose I should have put on my exrta jumper, shirt and socks... just in case :P .


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route2rock

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Re: All the Gear, No idea!!!
« Reply #17 on: 13:32:43, 11/01/14 »
You might have been able to deploy the shelter without sitting on the wet ground, i have before hunkered down, sitting on my heels with knees on the rain cover of my rucksack and i can vouch for how much of a moral boost can be gained from the shelter and close proximity to your walking partner. This position allows for you to keep the shelter pinned with your feet and allows room to change layers or layer up so to speak.

As for the kit you had, you may have found a synthetic warmth layer more useful than the down. Although the warmth to weight ratio of down is better than with syntheyics, the latter does not clump when wet, allowing it to retain a huge amount of its heat holding properties. Personally i walk with a primaloft gilet, which as it is fairly thin can be worn under a hardshell,  or on top as being wet is of little consiquence..
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midweekmountain

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Re: All the Gear, No idea!!!
« Reply #18 on: 14:30:28, 11/01/14 »
 I was always told that many rescue incidents are caused by a cumulative series of small errors and the events described here demonstrate that nicely. Thankfully it did not develop into anything serious but it just shows how easily things happen.
Think most issues have been described but the one thing I always do in winter is get an early start as I do a lot of winter mountaineering in Scotland, we normally start and finish the day in darkness the knack is to make sure you are on easy ground in the dark.
I always like to have plenty of time just in case those little nagging errors start creeping in and if it starts going wrong you have to keep your eye on the time and know when to back off.
 

Rhino

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Re: All the Gear, No idea!!!
« Reply #19 on: 19:41:41, 11/01/14 »
I was always told that many rescue incidents are caused by a cumulative series of small errors and the events described here demonstrate that nicely. Thankfully it did not develop into anything serious but it just shows how easily things happen.
Think most issues have been described but the one thing I always do in winter is get an early start as I do a lot of winter mountaineering in Scotland, we normally start and finish the day in darkness the knack is to make sure you are on easy ground in the dark.
I always like to have plenty of time just in case those little nagging errors start creeping in and if it starts going wrong you have to keep your eye on the time and know when to back off.

Ditto
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SadlerPete

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Re: All the Gear, No idea!!!
« Reply #20 on: 09:04:33, 12/01/14 »
midweekmountain:- Sorry, I'm at a bit of a loss. Which small errors demonstrate what exactly? ???

Rhino:- Thanks for the practical advice re. the use of the storm shelter, exactly the kind of advice I am looking for. I think that we need to practice with it, even in the back garden if necessary O0 . As for the gilet, it's the old arguement about down v synthetic, but we will certainly be having a look at them. Thanks again.
"Sailing in Summer, Walking in Winter".

SadlerPete

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Re: All the Gear, No idea!!!
« Reply #21 on: 09:52:12, 12/01/14 »
route2rock:-Sorry, thanks should have gone to you for information and advice on storm shelter and gilet not rhino, who doesn't appear to have anything to contribute. ;)
"Sailing in Summer, Walking in Winter".

archaeoroutes

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Re: All the Gear, No idea!!!
« Reply #22 on: 09:53:45, 12/01/14 »
I'm spoil in terms of kit. If it is dry and very cold I go with down. If it is wet and cold I go with synthetic. Buffalo and Paramo Torres are my two favourite synthetics. Indeed the Torres just won Mountain Pro magazine best buy.
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Nigel l

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Re: All the Gear, No idea!!!
« Reply #23 on: 10:13:09, 12/01/14 »
All the Gear, No idea!!! is what the male nurse said to his coleague as they wheeled me into A&E in Bangor after i was airlifted off Snowdon last year. >:(
All i wanted to do was punch the tw*t
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Ruthr

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Re: All the Gear, No idea!!!
« Reply #24 on: 12:55:46, 12/01/14 »
I agree with having your bag organised, this works for any walk where the conditions are going to be difficult. If it's well organised less time is spent trying to faff about finding things in the wet or the cold. I pack my bag in the order I think I will need things, with my gloves/hat/balacava/buff/neck warmer etc all in one dry bag.


In terms of gloves stash them in your zipped coat pockets then they are ready for when you need them. Have a waterproof overlayer for them - either mits or just a cover. Don't forget the power body heat, it sounds little odd but stuffing them inside your trousers next to your skin works wonders! Also is good for drying them if well.


Make sure you keep your head really warm. On a bad weather day I often wear my balaclava with a hat over the top.


We've used our storm shelter in the tipping rain, it's amazing how much your body heat will make it warm. If you think the weather is likely to be bad take a hot flask to drink in the shelter. Not sure what your storm shelter is like but with mine you get in and tuck it under your bum so your not sat directly on the floor. If it's windy be on the look out of anywhere which offers something to hide behind - we've resorted to peat groughs at times we do provide good shelter out of the wind!


Lastly make sure you re-proof your waterproofs regularly, I got caught out in the Beacons this year. It had been dry for ages and I hadn't checked how well my waterproofs were performing. After a few hours in the rain/wind I was soaked through. I was starting to feel shivery so we decided to descend as fast as we could out of the wind, then walk a lower level route back to the car. A few hours later I was walking along the valley in a t-shirt! Although we were too far in to turn back, by descending we were able to reduce height thus getting out of the very strong wind which often adds significantly to the wind chill.


Also don't forget to eat if the weather is bad, your body will struggle more to keep warm if it's run out of fuel. Keep a stash of high energy snacks in the outside pocket of your rucksack which you can grab easily without stopping.
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bear.cub

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Re: All the Gear, No idea!!!
« Reply #25 on: 16:15:37, 12/01/14 »
Hello
A few background details. Kinder Scout in the Peak District is my back yard. In the past 10yrs I’ve crossed it in all conditions from heat wave to blizzard without a problem. It has taught me the value of good gear, the limits of my personal fitness and endurance, and good planning.
Gear at present: - Paramo Alta 2 jacket (4yrs. Old regularly cleaned and proofed). Berghaus Deluge over trousers, Zamberlan Munro or VIOZ GT boots and Deuter 35l rucksack.
In the sack I carry a Storm Shelter 2, Down gilet, spare clothing, food, lights and hand warmer.
During the Christmas holidays my wife and I took a short break holiday at Appleby in Westmorland with the intention of doing a walk up into the Howgill Fells.
The forecast for the day was for rain with strong winds easing by late afternoon with temperatures in the low single figures.
Our 10 mile route from Dufton was to take us across Dufton Pike and up to Great Rundale Tarn, then down Maize Beck to the Pennine Way foot bridge following the trail back to Dufton via High Cup Nick, about the limit of our endurance.
We started, as predicted, in light rain which by the time we reached the tarn had become heavier with the strong winds and visibility of between 60 – 150 yds. As we progressed down Maize Beck the conditions worsened with heavier then torrential rain which turned first to sleet then snow with increased wind strength. There is no real path down the beck and the meandering stream has created a continual series of interlocking spurs which makes it difficult to keep one side only ( the spurs create a steep bank on corresponding sides at each turn). With water levels rising it eventually became impossible to cross from one side to the other, and progress became ever more difficult and tiring. We did however complete the walk although we never even caught a glimpse of the spectacular High Cup Nick.
The problem and reason for this article was the inability, had we needed it, to use any of the safety / survival gear that we had with us. I had started the day without gloves, by the time I needed them It would have been extremely difficult to open the sack in the torrential rain to get them and impossible to put them on with wet, cold hands. The result of this was that later, in the pub, my hands became very swollen for a few hours. Had we lost our way the chances of deploying and using the storm shelter were minimal as you are required to sit inside it and on a rain sodden moor this just would not have been feasible. Also with the amount of water around it is doubtful that the down gilets would have performed for long.
What I am asking for is any help or advice you can give in dealing with these conditions. Dry and cold no problem. Extreme rain / wind / cold how do you remain warm and dry. Also, by the time we had finished, my wife was soaked down the front and myself down the back and I believe we would have been in big trouble if we had needed to stay on the moor overnight.

Blimey, candid, open and honest O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 Respect O0

If I may add a couple of pointers which hopefully clarify midweekmountains comments, its useful to understand when the situation is beginning to degrade in order to act before they go horribly wrong. May I suggest that its useful to have emergency 'get off the mountain' routes pre-planned so you bang out when you recognise things(weather, people, equipment) are beginning to degrade. A kayaker once said to me that a good pointer for identifying the onset of hyperthermia is being unable to get you thumb and little finger to make contact. May I also suggest you have emergency food on you body; to keep it warm; for when you need it.

Every now and then when I experience something exhilarating I write it down in order to reflect and learn and then when I intend to do something with increased risk again I revisit the learning, in this way I try to retain the learning. May I suggest you don't rush your learning experience but take a bit of time to reflect and then consolidate. This is a reflection of mine.

ACTIVITY/SITUATION: Refection – Cairngorm
DATE: 11 Dec 10             
Analysis   Description
Significant   1.   Extremely high winds (55mpg average gusts with 66+ extreme gusts), extremely cold and poor visibility on tops. Late afternoon winds and visibility were particularly testing. Severe winds had been forecast.
2.   3 walkers in group, 2 were ML(S); one had previously walked Cairn Gorm. The group was led through consensus although I broke the trail throughout. I handed over navigation to Cairn Gorm peer when Recta compass reacted excessively slowly due to low temperature. Cairn Gorm peer warned of compass error experience on a previous walk and used a GPS to check navigation. Cairn Gorm peer had a habit of over examination of the map and inadvertently slowed the pace. Toward the later part of the day I forced the pace as time to darkness was rapidly approaching. Other experienced ML(S) was generally slow; prior to walk he had indicated that he was not hill fit as could be. He was observed weakening toward end of the day in the severest conditions. He was provided with walking poles for support by Cairn Gorm peer. During the day it was observed that his intake of energy was not commensurate with the energy demands of the walk.  Food was cold. As the severity of winds increased toward the end of the day it crossed my mind and my Cairn Gorm peers mind that we might have had to use the Escape Route to descend the mountain, in the event winds dropped considerably as we descended. This was the first occasion the 3 walkers had operated together, team dynamics were positive. It was noticeable that weakening peer did not complain at any point, he was quite prepared to be led.
3.   Ice axe and crampons were used. Ice axe was used as an anchor during extremely high gusts.
4.   An invigorating walk that pushed boundaries toward xxx assessment.
Conclusions/Learning Points   
1.   Know your ground and therein appreciate that walks in Scotland are far more remote which presents particular hazards including planning for Escape Routes which can be much longer than planned routes.
2.   It is easy to overestimate individual abilities based on qualifications and previous experience, in this case the fitness of a peer.
3.   Energy
a.   Adequate and constant energy intake is imperative on severe walks.
b.   Food needs to be easily at hand.
4.   Navigation:
a.   Be aware of Recta compasses on cold walks
b.   Be aware that compasses are influenced by geology in Scotland.
c.   GPS can be a useful aid to check navigation.
5.   Ensure personalities within group are understood and managed.
6.   Severe conditions emphasise the need for correct equipment.
7.   This was an excellent experiential learning walk with qualified and experienced peers despite the shortfalls mentioned. With an inexperienced group this walk would represent a very high risk activity.
Action Plan   1.   
Continue to experience walking in a variety of regions.
2.   Establish and allow for group fitness with regard to severity of walk.
3.   Energy:
a.   Ensure the group has an adequate and regular energy intake.
b.   Keep energy at hand.
4.   Navigation:
a.   Don’t use Recta compasses in cold conditions.
b.   Determine areas of Scotland where compasses are influenced by geology in Scotland.
c.   Be prepared to carry a GPS as an aid to check navigation where geology negatively influences a compass.
5.   Observe individuals and groups closely to determine team dynamics in readiness for severe conditions.
6.   Add ice axe and crampons to winter list.
7.   Only undertake testing walks such as this with experienced peers.
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Rhino

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Re: All the Gear, No idea!!!
« Reply #26 on: 17:09:36, 12/01/14 »
route2rock:-Sorry, thanks should have gone to you for information and advice on storm shelter and gilet not rhino, who doesn't appear to have anything to contribute. ;)

I think a lot of good feedback has already been given and there is no point repeating for the sake of it but I did agree with the comments I ditto'd on.
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Gary

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Re: All the Gear, No idea!!!
« Reply #27 on: 18:05:00, 12/01/14 »
Mitts are much easier to get on when your hands are wet than gloves.

thomasdevon

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Re: All the Gear, No idea!!!
« Reply #28 on: 22:30:43, 12/01/14 »
Some remarkably honest posts here. We might like to picture ourselves as intrepid and canny mountain-conquerors, but stuff does go wrong.
 
I had thought I was over-planning my own hikes, with escape routes and shelter points, plus 2 pairs of gloves and 1 extra pair of socks (for mitts if required). But I have heard that when things go wrong, it's not dramatic like in the movies, it's a succession of small incidents and decisions which make a later retrieval of the situation very hard. Also, subject to cold, stress, pain, hunger and fear, people are prone to make irrational decisions so a firm plan is as good as a map route down.
 
Thanks for the posts here - invaluable.

pauldawes

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Re: All the Gear, No idea!!!
« Reply #29 on: 07:43:35, 13/01/14 »
Peter:-Appraise route, why? Walk was completed without serious problem, just got a bit wet O0 . If you walk in Winter then you should expect atrocious weather, we did / do ::) . Perhaps the weather is sometimes seen as part of the challenge, of course it is. I was merely looking for some tips n tricks, like some members have given.



I think its at least arguable that we all appraise route at some level on most walks we do (unless its one in an area we know well)… even if its just an almost instant "ponder" on lines of "six miles, flattish terrain, no major hazards…don't need to take any kit or special precautions".


In this case I think my initial ponder would have focussed on the descent down the beck. We've had a period of constant rain and the forecast was for more… I'd have worried about a descent in those conditions… certainly if I wasn't sure there was a clear path all down one side of the stream…crossing a stream in those conditions might well be foolhardy.


If that (descent down the beck) had been early on in the walk…I'd have been relaxed…thinking obvious escape plan is to just turn back.


Towards end of walk?

Personally…in my present state of fitness… I'd have not set out, because I'd know that doubling back if I'd already walked 7 or 8 miles would make it a 15 mile walk in foul conditions. That is beyond my comfort zone. (Or I'd have done walk in reverse, planning to go up beck early in walk. Always prefer an ascent early in walk when fresh and fit to a descent late on when knackered.)


Reaching beck in middle of walk? (Meaning doubling back would mean 10 miles if beck descent looked "daft"… for me, it would almost be spin of a coin of a coin whether to set out or not… but it would obviously not be a problem for the many that are fitter.)

 

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