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Main Boards => Gear => Topic started by: El Principe on 00:33:01, 22/08/19

Title: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: El Principe on 00:33:01, 22/08/19
Hello all

I recently had an epiphany: boots with a waterproof membrane are TERRIBLE for regular wear. Why? Because the damn membrane invariably fails well before the end of the life of the boot (at least, in my experience).

This leaves you with a boot with a useless membrane, which runs hotter, and doesn't do its job of keeping water out.

I still keep a waterproof boot in my gear arsenal (gore-tex only), but only wear it when I NEED protection from significant wet and rain.

For all other use, a non-membrane boot is a better choice.

I don't usually ask for gear recommendations, since doing research is part of the fun, but literally EVERY walking boot out there features some kind of membrane (and not to mention many of those goretex knockoffs are bad).

I confess I recently tried the Timberland Euro Hiker Sensorflex - and the leather is actually AMAZING and does a brilliant job of keeping water out - but unfortunately it doesn't feel like a true hiker boot. It's a touch too soft and lacks grip.

Therefore, if anyone can recommend a non-membrane boot, preferably in brown nubuck leather, that would be amazing.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 05:54:08, 22/08/19
There is a version of the Scarpa Delta that does not have a Goretex lining. There is also a Goretex lined version. I was looking at this for myself, as I don’t see the point of a waterproof liner for leather boots. Unfortunately, Scarpa boots are now too narrow for my feet, despite me wearing an older line for many years. Either my feet have spread, or Scarpa are making narrower boots.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: kinkyboots on 07:01:29, 22/08/19
The Meindl Borneo 2 MFS is probably the most well known boot on the market which has a leather lining and no membrane. It's oiled nubuck and needs regular waxing to maintain the waterproofing.

The Hanwag Tatra II is another option worth considering. It's brushed nubuck and is available in both Goretex and leather lined versions in 3 width fittings.

The Oboz Sawtooth Mid is another unlined boot worth considering and is available in both unlined and B-Dry lined versions. It's a brushed nubuck/fabric combination boot.

I would not personally recommend brushed nubuck unless you intend to wax it as brushed nubuck is very difficult and time consuming to maintain and keep looking good. In my experience the waterproofing sprays available for use on brushed nubuck only work for a very short time before the boots need spraying again.

If most of your walking is low level the Altberg Defender military boot (regularly available on eBay) is another unlined boot worth considering (it has a fast drying Cambrelle lining) but it's a full leather boot not nubuck. It has limited ankle support which is why I suggest it's only suitable for low level walking.

As always the bottom line is that regardless of what you might like and how deep your pockets are at the end of the day it's what fits your feet that matters.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: Pitboot on 07:54:52, 22/08/19
Another recommendation for Hanwag Tatra II. They are very comfortable boots, the best I've had for many years.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: Ridge on 08:32:25, 22/08/19
I have the Meindl Borneos. I find them very comfortable but you may hate them. I bought them purely because I wanted a non-lined leather boot.
I've had them for a long time now and they have never let water in. I wax them when I get home any time that they have got significantly rained on, but they have handled 5 continuous days rain without failing.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: El Principe on 18:13:45, 23/08/19

Thanks for the recommendations guys. I love the look of the Meindl Borneos - exactly the style I'm looking for, complete with the rubber rand around the edge.

I have the Meindl Borneos. I find them very comfortable but you may hate them.

Why would I hate them? I notice they have that traditional "low to the ground" midsole - how does the cushioning hold up?

The price is quite steep, I'm holding out for something more in the £100-£150 range which matches my criteria, since I'm not really a serious walker (my sport is running, but I like to get out on walks on off-days/weekends).

As far as waxing goes, I won't touch anything that is not SMOOTH LEATHER with wax, i.e. suede, nubuck or even "full grain" leather. It wrecks the texture and cosmetic, and I'm also skeptical about the effects on its durability/performance.

The alternative is to use a spray for conditioning and treating non-smooth leather. There are very few, in fact perhaps only one, designed for this: Saphir Medaille D'Or Suede and Nubuck Renovateur Spray. This contains oils and waxes that condition the leather, add water-repellency, and will not alter texture. You can then follow up with Saphir's own DWR spray (Saphir Invulner) or a performance DWR spray. I use the latter for performance boots: Fibertec Shoe Guard Pro-X.


You can use this system for both gore-tex and non-goretex, non-smooth, leather boots.


Hope this helps
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: kinkyboots on 20:04:39, 23/08/19
The price is quite steep, I'm holding out for something more in the £100-£150 range which matches my criteria.

If that's the case you are likely to be either very disappointed as you will almost certainly not find any or have an extremely long wait and be extremely lucky to stumble across a shop which is either closing down or disposing of stock at reduced prices in your size.

The only boots which are full leather with no waterproof lining which are currently manufactured by any company have already been posted above. To my knowledge no more options exist and the prices of those that do are unlikely to come down any time soon. Your budget limit of £150 is too low for the specification you are looking for and from what I can see needs increasing to around £175+.

Secondhand hardly worn models via eBay etc. is possibly an option worth considering to get down within your budget range?
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: Mel on 21:26:37, 23/08/19

Here you go El Principe - a non-lined leather walking boot (https://www.sportsdirect.com/gelert-leather-boot-mens-walking-boots-182779#colcode=18277903)


As a "non-serious" walker, these would be perfect.  Plus, there's no need to use £13+ waterproofing spray on them, you can just use regular shoe polish.


Saved you a fortune?


You're welcome  O0



Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: Ridge on 22:54:09, 23/08/19
Why would I hate them?
I only said MAY hate them. I just meant that what is wonderfully comfortable for me may not be right for your feet.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: wobblyknees on 22:57:45, 23/08/19
but literally EVERY walking boot out there features some kind of membrane


Not true. Nearly all of the major reputable brands offer a choice of lined and unlined hard grained leather boots.
Our household has a mixture of both and we have never noticed a difference in waterproofing provided they are kept well waxed. We usually use either mink oil or Meindl Sports Wax (not together).
Most of my lined boots are so old, the lining has decomposed and my big toe has worn a hole through it. They are still waterproof.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: kinkyboots on 09:25:24, 24/08/19
Nearly all of the major reputable brands offer a choice of lined and unlined hard grained leather boots.

That's just not true and I hate to disagree but no they definitely don't and haven't done so for many years.

It appears that since competitors to Gore-tex's waterproof liners became more widely available the outdoor footwear industry collectively decided without any consultation which I'm aware of that we all need and must have waterproof liners in our full leather boots regardless of whether we want them or not and they have pretty much gradually all but done away with any models which don't have waterproof liners in them.

I look forward to seeing your list of unlined full leather boots from "reputable" brands which are still currently available.

I'd really like to be proved wrong but other than maybe a couple of obscure examples I'm pretty confident that there won't be any more to add to the list below.

Meindl Borneo 2 MFS
Hanwag Tatra II
Scarpa Delta Leather (end of line with very few still remaining in odd sizes around the country)
Scarpa SL Active (3-4 season crampon compatible)
Altberg Defender military boot (low level walking only)
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: lostme1 on 19:34:48, 24/08/19
I was looking for this a few years ago all the boots I found, as Kinkyboots list, were heavier than I wanted for the walking I do. Why do manufacturers insist on imposing boots on us.
Years ago I had scarpa leather boots without wateproof lining and I had never had a problem with water ingress. Now my feet are hotter in boots with a waterproof lining and also damper with perspiration.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: wobblyknees on 11:21:03, 26/08/19
That's just not true and I hate to disagree but no they definitely don't and haven't done so for many years.


My apologies. I was totally unaware that that change had come about. It's a good few years since I bought hard leather boots.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: kinkyboots on 12:17:21, 26/08/19
My apologies. I was totally unaware that that change had come about. It's a good few years since I bought hard leather boots.

Absolutely no apology is required.

It's more a matter of the list of available full leather boots without a waterproof liner being correct for anybody else who might stumble across this thread looking for info.

Judging by the rate at which full leather boots without a waterproof liner seem to be vanishing from the market it may not be too long before this type of boot is gone forever.

Why do manufacturers insist on imposing boots on us.

Like you I'm certain that there's a ready market for high quality full leather boots without waterproof liners and I'm surprised that more manufacturers haven't spotted this obvious growing gap in the market and taken full advantage of it.

Having said that I'm equally sure that most manufacturers will base their manufacturing decisions purely on sales numbers and profit margins and I think that you can ultimately lay the blame at the door of the marketing departments who have somehow managed to convince the vast majority of their customers that waterproof liners are a "must have" essential feature.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: wobblyknees on 22:53:17, 26/08/19
I have no more unlined boots to add to your list, kinkyboots. I had a quick scan of Lowa and Altberg websites. It's remarkable how the choice in unlined boots has almost disappeared. I suspect manufacturers are generally using thinner leathers and relying on the lining to provide more waterproofing.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: El Principe on 23:14:42, 27/08/19
I have no more unlined boots to add to your list, kinkyboots. I had a quick scan of Lowa and Altberg websites. It's remarkable how the choice in unlined boots has almost disappeared. I suspect manufacturers are generally using thinner leathers and relying on the lining to provide more waterproofing.

Actually Lowa have just recently released the "Trekker" boot which, as far as I can see, is membrane-less.


Bit ugly though, too much stitching in the uppers. For the same price or better you can pick up the Meindls!


Anyways, thanks for all the input guys, and I'm glad we could make a discussion of it. Maybe we should make a pinned list somewhere, so that people can find a recommendation list of membrane-less leather boots?


Thanks
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: kinkyboots on 07:38:55, 28/08/19
Updated List

Meindl Borneo 2 MFS
Hanwag Tatra II
Hanwag Tatra II Bunion
Hanwag Alta Bunion
Lowa Trekker
Scarpa Delta Leather (end of line with very few still remaining in odd sizes around the country)
Scarpa SL Active (3-4 season crampon compatible)
Altberg Defender military boot (low level walking only)
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: NeilC on 07:40:21, 28/08/19
I have some Hanwag Hallux boots which are unlined. I wouldn't recommend them outside of Summer though. They are nubuck and made of quite a few pieces (they are very similar in design to Lowa Renegades). They get sodden and leak in a day when walking in wet weather, especially wet grass, even thought they've been thoroughly and repeatedly waxed with quality wax.

So if I were getting unlined boots I'd make sure they were full-grain leather and made of a single piece, or close to it. If Altberg did unlined, I'd consider them. I personally do not think nubuck every gets as waterproof as fullgrain, no matter what you do it it, because the layer they remove to make it Nubuck is the layer that is most naturally waterproof, close-textured and dense. I don't get the logic of using nubuck in walking boots TBH.

As for goretex boots not breathing and not drying out well, I agree with the former but the latter seems almost irrelevasnt - as far as I can tell no boots dry out in UK wet conditions anyway - that takes indoor drying.. My unlined boots certainly do not dry out to a usefull level on backpacking trips. Maybe they would if it's hot and sunny and get get dunked just once crossing a stream or something, but not on the soggy Welsh or Dartmoor walks I do. Personally I'm converted to Goretex
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: kinkyboots on 09:59:31, 28/08/19
It looks like the Hanwag Hallux has vanished from their current range and been replaced by the Hanwag Tatra II Bunion and Hanwag Alta Bunion. The list above has been updated to include these.

If Altberg did unlined, I'd consider them.

You are not alone. As I said before the gap in the market is glaringly obvious and I'm certain the demand would be there for the right boot/s without waterproof liners.

It might be wishfull thinking but perhaps a new version of the Altberg Tethera (built on their standard last) with the same high rand as the Altberg Nordkapp to give better toe protection with either a full leather or Cambrelle lining and backed up by a new version of the Altberg Nordkapp (built on their A-Forme last) using the same leather as the Altberg Tethera with either a full leather or Cambrelle lining?

Those two models would probably cover the vast majority of any demand with very little design effort/tooling required by Altberg to produce them. It just needs Altberg to be willing to take the leap of faith to make it happen.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: Ridge on 10:12:50, 28/08/19
I guess that those of us who like them are a very small minority. If you don't know better, when you are offered boots with or without a waterproof liner, the choice would obviously be to go for the waterproof ones.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: NeilC on 11:57:01, 28/08/19
It looks like the Hanwag Hallux has vanished from their current range and been replaced by the Hanwag Tatra II Bunion and Hanwag Alta Bunion. The list above has been updated to include these.

Ah yes...I did mean Alta Bunion actually - must have had hallux rigidus on the brain.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: Mike B. on 20:13:09, 03/09/19
Theres loads (I also hate gore-tex in boots):
The Legendary(https://www.scarpa.co.uk/images/srv/product-enlargement/Trek_Walking_%26_Trekking/F18/SL-19.jpg)
Lowa LL (Leather Lined Series) if you go to the Lowa website and put in LL in the search bar you get a lot of results.
(https://i.imgur.com/D8CiLm5.png)


Hanwag also do a few leather lined models.
Salomon Forces Quest 4d non Gore-tex
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: Ridge on 20:28:07, 03/09/19
Hi Mike and welcome to the forum.


We are quite a UK centric group and lowa.co.uk appear to have no leather lined boots available.


E2A just to prove myself wrong https://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/p/lowa-womens-wendelstein-boot-B2124032.html?colour=143&rrec=true (https://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/p/lowa-womens-wendelstein-boot-B2124032.html?colour=143&rrec=true)
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: kinkyboots on 17:32:47, 05/09/19
I contacted Joe Sheehan Altberg's Sales Director and asked him for his thoughts and comments on this thread.

His reply is below.   

Quote
Thank you for the email and information,

It makes quite interesting reading.
 
We do still make some walking boots with a cambrelle lining (same as in Defender), however this is done on a made to order basis,  and the lead time is quite long (16-20 weeks

I think the main reason that most companies to not make many stock items without a lining is due to demand – for every 200 pairs of waterproof boots we sell, we get asked maybe 2 or 3 times for a unlined boot- even though the majority of leather we use are waterproof leathers – this may also be the reason why some retailers are not as keen to stock unlined boots,
 
I hope the above helps,

Best regards
 
Joe

It turns out that Cambrelle lined walking boots are available to order from the Altberg factory (to those who know to request them) but only on a made to order basis with a 16-20 week lead time.

It's clear from his reply that lack of demand is the main reason for unlined boots vanishing from the market. The other thing to bear in mind is that in the current financial climate very few retailers are be prepared to tie up their cash stocking both lined and unlined options. 1 or 2 pairs of unlined boots out of every 100 pairs sold is not a good strike rate.

I would argue that if you don't actively market unlined boots as being an available option for customers to order you won't be able to sell very many and of course I'm sure many customers would obviously prefer leather lined boots in preference to Cambrelle lined boots.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: Snowman on 21:50:14, 13/09/19
My take on this situation is that boot (and shoe) manufacturers and retailers have realised that there's money to be made from convincing the public that they need footwear with a waterproof lining.  The fact is that most leather boots can easily be waterproofed without the need for Gore-tex or anything else come to that.   In fact the reliance on a membrane infers that the user will allow the leather to become sodden to the extent that the membrane is the defence against water.   My personal opinion is that it is preferable to protect the leather against water since that would extend the life of the boot.


It has also become difficult to find a reasonably priced, but quality 'summer' walking shoe because everything now has to come with a waterproof membrane, which seems to double the price.


I've long been a critic of Gore-tex's aggressive marketing that has virtually forced its product on the market.   Who do you think is paying for their marketing?   It's certainly not them.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: NeilC on 15:43:51, 18/09/19
My take on this situation is that boot (and shoe) manufacturers and retailers have realised that there's money to be made from convincing the public that they need footwear with a waterproof lining.  The fact is that most leather boots can easily be waterproofed without the need for Gore-tex or anything else come to that.   In fact the reliance on a membrane infers that the user will allow the leather to become sodden to the extent that the membrane is the defence against water.   My personal opinion is that it is preferable to protect the leather against water since that would extend the life of the boot.


It has also become difficult to find a reasonably priced, but quality 'summer' walking shoe because everything now has to come with a waterproof membrane, which seems to double the price.


I've long been a critic of Gore-tex's aggressive marketing that has virtually forced its product on the market.   Who do you think is paying for their marketing?   It's certainly not them.


That's true but I also remember the "good old days", before any boots had Goretex and I remember my feet getting very wet in soggy UK winter conditions after a while. I had quality, full-grain leather boots that I waxed and whilst they held off water for a good while they eventually got sodden and that was that. So for multiway backpacking in British hills where getting the boots constantly wet for 2 or more days, I'm more than happy with the Goretex, which keeps my feet a lot drier.


I'm also not convinced by the supposed quick drying of unlined boots. I'm they dry quicker in a drying room but they sure don't dry quickly enough on a backpacking trip to be dry enough for it to matter. Soaking wet leather takes a long time to dry in the UK. I imagine they work well on dry, foreign trails where you get wet feet crossing a stream but have dry heat and dry trails in between, but on Dartmoor or similar, nothing dries until you get back to building IME.


I'd like the option of unlined for summer but I can see why they're popular.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: El Principe on 15:58:34, 21/09/19
Does anyone know if Hanwag runs a bit wider than Meindl?


I pulled the trigger on the Meindl Borneos, but they have an absurdly narrow outsole/footprint. They would certainly be narrower than anything I currently own. I like a broader footprint for a firmer, more stable footing.


Hanwag actually have more leather lined options than the Tantra, including the Yukon and Nazcat (which come in both gtx and non-gtx). It's the latter that I am looking at.

I see they have "wide" options too, but I'm not sure if that even translates into a wider sole, plus I can't see a "wide" Nazcat option, so standard is probably what I'll go for.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: JohnLondon on 16:50:36, 21/09/19
I always thought Meindl were a wide fit unless that’s changed in recent years
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: kinkyboots on 10:46:33, 22/09/19
I pulled the trigger on the Meindl Borneos, but they have an absurdly narrow outsole/footprint. They would certainly be narrower than anything I currently own. I like a broader footprint for a firmer, more stable footing.

I don't know the answer to your Hanwag question.

It's not clear from your post whether the Meindl Borneo fits your feet or not? The width of the outsole/footprint is irrelevant if the last the boot was made on is wide enough and fits your feet.

If the Meindl Borneo is not wide enough for your feet have a look at the Meindl Bernina 2 which is basically a wider fitting version of the leather lined Meindl Borneo and is part of Meindl's Comfort Fit range suitable for wider feet. The downside is that the price is much higher than that of the Borneo and you may also wish to consider replacing the cork and fleece insoles supplied in them.

Updated List

Meindl Borneo 2 MFS
Meindl Bernina 2 (wider fitting Comfort Range)
Hanwag Tatra II
Hanwag Tatra II Bunion
Hanwag Alta Bunion
Hanwag Yukon
Hanwag Yukon Wide
Hanwag Nazcat
Lowa Trekker
Scarpa Delta Leather (end of line with very few still remaining in odd sizes around the country)
Scarpa SL Active (3-4 season crampon compatible)
Altberg Defender military boot (low level walking only)
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: Pitboot on 18:59:41, 22/09/19
Does anyone know if Hanwag runs a bit wider than Meindl?

I chose Hanwags over Meindl for this reason, so yes.


You need to try a few pairs on, this is not a researched answer, only my experience.


Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: El Principe on 17:46:45, 01/10/19
I've pulled the trigger on the Nazcat! Waiting for them to come.


Will let you guys know how they pan out.  O0

As for the Meindl's, they'll go back. They probably fit my foot, but I don't like a really narrow outsole/footprint, it means less ground contact and therefore a less stable feel. 
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: Skirrid on 14:10:44, 02/11/19
I've had a few pairs of Scarpa Deltas both with and without the Goretex lining. They're about £30 cheaper without. I can honestly say I've never got wet feet in either type. Super comfortable too. O0
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: El Principe on 14:34:35, 14/12/19
Hey guys, just thought I'd give an update on the Hanwag Nazcat Boots (leather lined).

Very good so far. Pretty firm and stiff out of the box, but they do soften up within a few weeks. I wouldn't hike in them without breaking them in first. I also replaced the stock footbed with a softer option (one which is still thin and doesn't alter the fit).

They have loads of support and cushion, though my only criticism of the midsole would be that it delivers a fairly "high-to-the-ground" feel.

The leather uppers are where this boots really shines, and after a few months of use, show absolutely no signs of wear. No creases, nothing.

I've actually cleaned them for the first time since use. To tell you the truth, I don't scrub clean my boots very often - if they're pretty mucky after a trek, I'll usually use some paper towels just to wipe/dab the muck off and then leave to dry. The height of the midsole + rand means that most muck doesn't reach the uppers.

Cleaning the leather uppers, using Saphir Omni Nettoyant and a soft brush (+water), delivered wonderful results. It's almost unbelievable but they came out looking like new.

I'm yet to retreat the leather, firstly with a conditioner spray (Saphir Renovateur Nubuck/Suede Spray) and then with a final DWR spray. Both impregnate and condition the leather.

I'll try get some pics up of the boot before the next treatment step so you can take a look.

I'm now thinking of getting the gore-tex version of this boot too, it's that good. I am however torn between Hanwag and Lowa for gore-tex options. I wonder if anybody has used both brands and can comment?

Thanks,
EP
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: El Principe on 14:36:41, 14/12/19
Oops, tried to edit post above but managed to repost. Just added the bit about shoe trees.

Hey guys, just thought I'd give an update on the Hanwag Nazcat Boots (leather lined).

Very good so far. Pretty firm and stiff out of the box, but they do soften up within a few weeks. I wouldn't hike in them without breaking them in first. I also replaced the stock footbed with a softer option (one which is still thin and doesn't alter the fit).

They have loads of support and cushion, though my only criticism of the midsole would be that it delivers a fairly "high-to-the-ground" feel.

The leather uppers are where this boots really shines, and after a few months of use, show absolutely no signs of wear. No creases, nothing. (Note that I also use a cedar-wood shoe tree which lives in the boot when not in use - and because it's leather-lined, you needn't worry about the pressure degrading a membrane)

I've actually cleaned them for the first time since use. To tell you the truth, I don't scrub clean my boots very often - if they're pretty mucky after a trek, I'll usually use some paper towels just to wipe/dab the muck off and then leave to dry. The height of the midsole + rand means that most muck doesn't reach the uppers.

Cleaning the leather uppers, using Saphir Omni Nettoyant and a soft brush (+water), delivered wonderful results. It's almost unbelievable but they came out looking like new.

I'm yet to retreat the leather, firstly with a conditioner spray (Saphir Renovateur Nubuck/Suede Spray) and then with a final DWR spray. Both impregnate and condition the leather.

I'll try get some pics up of the boot before the next treatment step so you can take a look.

I'm now thinking of getting the gore-tex version of this boot too, it's that good. I am however torn between Hanwag and Lowa for gore-tex options. I wonder if anybody has used both brands and can comment?

Thanks,
EP
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: Birdman on 16:34:50, 16/02/20
I bought the Meindl Borneo (no goretex) as an alternative for my trusted Meindl Bhutan (goretex) when I was going to hike in the desert. I really liked the leather lining of the Borneo, but unfortunately it has a different mid sole too that for some reason didn't work for me. It gave me sore feet. so I changed back to the Bhutan with goretex.

Like others on this forum I regret the limited choice in non-waterproof lined boots. It's clear that marketing guys are in the driving seat.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: Yorci on 18:22:09, 16/02/20
I bought a pair of Fremington boots from Altberg a couple of years a go (to replace my very very ancient Line-7's). They were a reasonable price and they're not too heavy on long walks. I was seriously struggling to find a decent replacement for my much loved Line-7's. Though I was sceptical about moving to full leather. Surprisingly my feet were still comfy after climbing Whernside on a very hot day in June 2018. Hopefully they'll be okay in future hot summers. They've held nicely on a few wet scrambles and also stood up to some foul weather, they seem climate change proof - I'm not keen on soggy feet this time of the year!
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: Birdman on 18:43:29, 16/02/20
I bought a pair of Fremington boots from Altberg a couple of years a go (to replace my very very ancient Line-7's). They were a reasonable price and they're not too heavy on long walks. I was seriously struggling to find a decent replacement for my much loved Line-7's. Though I was sceptical about moving to full leather. Surprisingly my feet were still comfy after climbing Whernside on a very hot day in June 2018. Hopefully they'll be okay in future hot summers. They've held nicely on a few wet scrambles and also stood up to some foul weather, they seem climate change proof - I'm not keen on soggy feet this time of the year!


I don't know if it is just me, but I don't find leather boots much hotter. I even hike on them in hot deserts in the USA and Australia without problems.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: janner on 16:17:48, 17/02/20
One more boot that has a leather lining is the Hanwag Lhasa which is like a Hanwag Tatra only made from Yak leather instead of nubuck. They can be found on Bike24 website which is a German company. To answer El Principe question I have had a pair of Meindl Bernina 2 boots which are leather lined wide boots and now have a pair of Hanwag Tatra wide. Out of the two I found the Miendl to be wider than the Hanwag wide.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: kinkyboots on 16:37:38, 17/02/20
Updated List

Meindl Borneo 2 MFS
Meindl Bernina 2 (wider fitting Comfort Range)
Hanwag Tatra II
Hanwag Tatra II Bunion
Hanwag Alta Bunion
Hanwag Yukon
Hanwag Yukon Wide
Hanwag Nazcat
Hanwag Lhasa II
Hanwag Lhasa II Wide
Lowa Trekker
Scarpa Delta Leather (end of line with very few still remaining in odd sizes around the country)
Scarpa SL Active (3-4 season crampon compatible)
Altberg Defender military boot (low level walking only)
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: Randombeliefs on 23:08:54, 09/05/20
Scarpa SL Activ.


Mine are still going strong after 10 happy years, comfortable,  supple, always dry. Look no further (provided your foot shape and the shape of Scarpa's last agree)
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: watershed on 09:22:42, 10/05/20
Asolo TPS 535 LTH V evo are cambrelle lined.
 they appear to be very popular and have a great review.
https://www.asolo.com/en/products/backpacking/triple-power-structure/tps-535-lth-v-evo-brown.html
But off course have the disadvantage of all leather boots of being heavy and expensive.

I take it your choice has to be fully leather not a combination of leather and material, like the Salomon X-Ultra Mid 3 aero. There is a link in this review to other non Gore-Tex lined boots from other brands within the review. but they are light weight and so not fully leather.
https://sectionhiker.com/salomon-x-ultra-mid-3-aero-review/


I use the Gore-tex lined version, which I started wearing instead of leather and wont be changing back.


I intend to order the Aero just to have in case I decide to go walking somewhere hot in Europe or the States after travel restrictions are lifted.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: glovepuppet on 11:48:04, 11/05/20
It appears that since competitors to Gore-tex's waterproof liners became more widely available the outdoor footwear industry collectively decided without any consultation which I'm aware of that we all need and must have waterproof liners in our full leather boots regardless of whether we want them or not



Interesting take on the subject, and - without trying to go off topic - one which I have a beef about in relation to another type of outdoor gear. Why is it that most top-end jacket producers insist on designing jackets with a helmet-compatible hood? Given that climbers/via-ferrata-ists are probably around c 5% of potential users, why do the rest of us have to put up with an over-large hood that we have to cinch in with all the additional fabric to get a decent fit, and which inflates in strong winds?


Just a thought, but it does bug me!  ;D :D


GP
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: ninthace on 12:54:26, 11/05/20

Interesting take on the subject, and - without trying to go off topic - one which I have a beef about in relation to another type of outdoor gear. Why is it that most top-end jacket producers insist on designing jackets with a helmet-compatible hood? Given that climbers/via-ferrata-ists are probably around c 5% of potential users, why do the rest of us have to put up with an over-large hood that we have to cinch in with all the additional fabric to get a decent fit, and which inflates in strong winds?


Just a thought, but it does bug me!  ;D :D


GP
It is so I can get my hood over my Tilley.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: glovepuppet on 12:58:18, 11/05/20
It is so I can get my hood over my Tilley.


 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: GnP on 13:05:19, 11/05/20

I don't know if it is just me, but I don't find leather boots much hotter. I even hike on them in hot deserts in the USA and Australia without problems.
I prefer all leather boots. They keep my feet cooler and personally, I think they have more give in them than fabric boots.
From my experience fabric boots have always made my feet sweat.  :o
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: jjnevis on 13:09:34, 21/04/21
I know this is an old discussion, but useful for people interested in non-membrane boots. Just thought I would add another to the list:
Zamberlan 1023 Latemar NW

They are a very sturdy traditional storm welt boot with a leather lining.

There are also the Limmer boots that are made in Germany for an American company, but I'm not sure how easy it is to get a hold of them.


(I did have links to the above, but am not allowed to post external links, a simple search should find them though)
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: richardh1905 on 15:36:49, 21/04/21
Thanks jjnevis, and welcome to the forum  :)
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: richardh1905 on 15:40:10, 21/04/21
As well as being a waste of time in the long run, as in my experience liners always leak after 500 miles or so, they also wear out more quickly than a leather lining - I recently had to bin my old Brasher Hillmasters for this reason - the failed lining was starting to rub on my heel.


My next pair of boots will be leather lined.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: richardh1905 on 15:40:53, 21/04/21
And call me a cynic, but I would wager that it is cheaper to line a boot with GoreTex than it is with leather.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: ninthace on 15:54:25, 21/04/21
And call me a cynic, but I would wager that it is cheaper to line a boot with GoreTex than it is with leather.
I suspect the inner fabric liner comes with the membrane as part of a "sandwich" as the membrane is quite thin.  I am old enough to remember boots with leather interiors and the memories are not good ones.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: richardh1905 on 16:03:18, 21/04/21
It undoubtedly will, ninthace.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: kinkyboots on 16:35:16, 21/04/21
I had a look at the Zamberlan 1023 Latemar NW and they seem to be end of line and probably about to bite the dust as Zambelan's own website only has one size available RRP £315. The cheapest I could find online with stock available was £249 at Uttings.

And call me a cynic, but I would wager that it is cheaper to line a boot with GoreTex than it is with leather.

You are not wrong and leather lining requires a major investment in a completely different set of training & skills, cutting, tooling and assembly methods & kit. The few companies that did have this knowledge and ability have long since disposed of it.

I am old enough to remember boots with leather interiors and the memories are not good ones.

You would be surprised at how times have changed and moved on! Believe it or not they no longer use Brontosaurus skin to line them with!  ;D

I recently bought a pair of Hanwag Lhasa II Leather Lined and I am amazed at the improvement in comfort the leather lining provides. Definitely worth a closer look next time you are in anywhere selling Hanwag leather lined models with stock.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: ninthace on 16:49:17, 21/04/21
In the good old days, boots with leather inners were the reason most people wore two pairs of woolly  socks.  A long pair over the trousers, to show one was a proper rambler, and a shorter pair rolled over the boot cuffs.  It was a valiant, but often futile, effort to stave off blisters.
The best way I knew of breaking in boots, which one had to do 'cos them bronto hides were tough, was a days potholing.  Nothing like a steady 8 hour soak in a mixture of mud and water to get the leather supple!
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: jjnevis on 11:51:42, 15/03/22
OK, I feel like I'm about to commit treason here, but I'm about to recommend a leather boot WITH a Goretex lining... Gulp. My only possible justification for recommending it here is that it also has a part leather lining (one of my primary reasons for seeking out a non Goretex one). If you're walking environment is likely to be soggy (I live in Scottish Highlands!), it's great. It's by far the best all round walking boot for my needs that I've owned:

Millet Bouthan GTX

(turns and runs away)
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: Birdman on 13:44:37, 15/03/22
OK, I feel like I'm about to commit treason here, but I'm about to recommend a leather boot WITH a Goretex lining... Gulp. My only possible justification for recommending it here is that it also has a part leather lining (one of my primary reasons for seeking out a non Goretex one). If you're walking environment is likely to be soggy (I live in Scottish Highlands!), it's great. It's by far the best all round walking boot for my needs that I've owned:

Millet Bouthan GTX

(turns and runs away)


Goretex lined boots work great for me too in the Scottish Highlands. When combined with rain trousers that make sure that rain doesn't flow from your legs into the top of your boots, you can keep your feet dry the entire day (provided the boots are relatively new).
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: ninthace on 14:50:48, 15/03/22

Goretex lined boots work great for me too in the Scottish Highlands. When combined with rain trousers that make sure that rain doesn't flow from your legs into the top of your boots, you can keep your feet dry the entire day (provided the boots are relatively new).
If they are leather and well maintained, they do not even need to be that new.  My boots are 7 or 8 years old and are still perfectly watertight.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: Birdman on 15:56:33, 15/03/22
If they are leather and well maintained, they do not even need to be that new.  My boots are 7 or 8 years old and are still perfectly watertight.


Mine last a lot shorter. When they get older they are still fine in the rain, but not when walking through water/ bogs for long periods of time. Then the water will creep in after some time (but not with brand new boots).
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: kinkyboots on 16:35:22, 15/03/22
Mine last a lot shorter. When they get older they are still fine in the rain, but not when walking through water/ bogs for long periods of time. Then the water will creep in after some time (but not with brand new boots).

If you're still using the Meindl Bhutans the lack of longevity may be down to the product/s you are using to maintain them and/or your maintenance regime?

That's without taking into account Meindl's gradual deterioration in build quality over the last few years and they definitely aren't the bombproof boots they used to be not that long ago.

Of course a decent pair of Gore-Tex or eVent gaiters worn in the appropriate weather/terrain conditions will go a long way towards extending the life of any boot.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: George387 on 16:44:44, 15/03/22
I have been using a pair of Altberg all leather boots for the best part of 6 years now & they are still very much as waterproof / bog proof (put to the test again yesterday) as they were the 1st day I purchased them.
I use leder grease on them as advised by altberg when they are wet and as they dry they draw the leder grease in keeping everything sealed.

Wouldn't use any other boot as Ive used altberg in combat as well as recreation & have kept me on my feet for many years now.  O0
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: Birdman on 17:08:50, 15/03/22
If you're still using the Meindl Bhutans the lack of longevity may be down to the product/s you are using to maintain them and/or your maintenance regime?

That's without taking into account Meindl's gradual deterioration in build quality over the last few years and they definitely aren't the bombproof boots they used to be not that long ago.

Of course a decent pair of Gore-Tex or eVent gaiters worn in the appropriate weather/terrain conditions will go a long way towards extending the life of any boot.


I'm using Grangers G-Wax. Also used Brasher wax before (is basically the same thing).
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: ninthace on 17:11:41, 15/03/22
I have been using a pair of Altberg all leather boots for the best part of 6 years now & they are still very much as waterproof / bog proof (put to the test again yesterday) as they were the 1st day I purchased them.
I use leder grease on them as advised by altberg when they are wet and as they dry they draw the leder grease in keeping everything sealed.

Wouldn't use any other boot as Ive used altberg in combat as well as recreation & have kept me on my feet for many years now.  O0
. I use Altberg too.  Last time the factory resoled them they said I had worn through the membrane.  It has made no difference to their leak resistance, if they had not said, I would not have known.
Title: Re: Leather walking boots WITHOUT a waterproof membrane
Post by: kinkyboots on 17:37:09, 15/03/22

I'm using Grangers G-Wax. Also used Brasher wax before (is basically the same thing).

This old post may be of interest http://www.walkingforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=39039.msg555671#msg555671 (https://www.walkingforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=39039.msg555671#msg555671) particularly the advice contained in the Whalley Warm & Dry leaflet which they include in the box with all the full leather boots they sell.

Their two wax approach definitely does make a difference and extends the life of the leather. If the Grangers G-Wax isn't performing for you give the Altberg Leder Gris Original & Xtreme or another combination a try. I use a combination of the Grangers G-Wax and the Cherry Blossom Waxed Leather Oil and have had excellent results although I will admit I don't do much in the way of bog trotting.

Personally I found the Altberg stuff too temperature dependent and hard to apply and work down into the leather unless it was warmed up first. Also the Altberg tins are not airtight and the oils in the wax can turn rancid and smell bad over time.

NB Some of the product links and prices will no doubt have changed since it was posted.