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Main Boards => General Walking Discussion => Topic started by: Rob Goes Walking on 21:36:08, 26/04/19

Title: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 21:36:08, 26/04/19
I made this thread as every thread I make turns into a nav thread. It even took over the Awning for a bit. Anyway now if people want to ignore it they won't be deceived by interesting looking title threads.

I practiced nav today a little bit, only the real basics, thumbing the map, keeping the map orientated, pacing, handrailing. I had wanted to practice some of the bearings techniques too but in the area I walked in it was full of animal waste and it really put me off for some reason.

So hopefully I'll practice bearings soon, tomorrow even. But I'm really having trouble identifying a location where walking on a bearing makes sense and is possible (no fences or walls in the way), be that a direct bearing or a map bearing. Is there anywhere else, preferably a nice low lying easy area where you think it would be a good idea to practice walking on a bearing? Around the Howgills, North Pennines or in the Lakes (or in the Yorkshire Dales, Northern and Central Areas? I'm thinking if I can see what I took the bearing from it's no good as I will walk by sight of the what I took the bearing from not on the bearing or am I wrong?


Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: ninthace on 21:40:57, 26/04/19
Gaythorne Plain NY 64339 11400


And your first challenge is to find the Thunder Stone at NY 64106 10243.  Parking available at NY 65127 11774 or NY 64338 12355 or NY 63188 10718
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 22:05:21, 26/04/19
Thanks ninthace, I perhaps should have wandered further along the area I visited today but it really was teaming with excitement.

What are all the (rocky?) features atop Gaythorne Plain? I've never seen that before and can't find them on my OS map key.

Perhaps I should go and have a look. I'm guessing they're outcrop but don't look much like the map key.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: ninthace on 22:23:22, 26/04/19
Thanks ninthace, I perhaps should have wandered further along the area I visited today but it really was teaming with excitement.

What are all the (rocky?) features atop Gaythorne Plain? I've never seen that before and can't find them on my OS map key.
It's only sheep poo - you won't get far if you can't handle it!
The rocky area is an SSSI of Limestone Pavement.  The Thunder Stone is a glacial erratic that has been incorporated into a wall.  You will have to be on top of it to find it.


The whole area from Sunbiggin Tarn across the plain to Crosby Garret Fell and the M6 is open ground,


Your next challenge is to tell me what the monument at NY 60129 10363 commemorates.  The monument is in dead ground near Black Dub.  It is about 3 - 4 feet high and is not on the 25000 map (well it is not on the one one the website),  Parking at NY 59922 09163 or NY 63175 10717
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 22:35:23, 26/04/19
It's only sheep poo - you won't get far if you can't handle it!

Was it? It wasn't little black spheres like sheep normally make they were like mini cow pats. I couldn't work out what animal they came from.

Challenges eh? Could be fun...
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: ninthace on 22:50:05, 26/04/19
Returning to the first challenge - here is a possible navex.


Park NY 63197 10694.  Take track going E across the plain to NY 63197 10694 where bridleway (bw) crosses, You could practice pacing from track bend at NY 63917 10681 to find the bw.  Go S on bw to fork at NY 63928 10263,  head on bearing to Thunder Stone, Handrail SW to bw crossing wall at NY 64001 10051.  Walk to Monument at NY 63510 09948.  Work out best route from Monument back to car.  Hint: NY 63401 09891 on aerial view


There are others such as crossing the plain to find a road intersection on the far side.  See also https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/route/1911340/160602-Gaythorne-Plain (https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/route/1911340/160602-Gaythorne-Plain)
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: ninthace on 22:52:19, 26/04/19
Was it? It wasn't little black spheres like sheep normally make they were like mini cow pats. I couldn't work out what animal they came from.

Challenges eh? Could be fun...
Unusual to find cows in Stenkrith Park - too many dog walkers.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: archaeoroutes on 23:33:16, 26/04/19
Don't be in too much of a rush to using bearings. Get a really good feel for relating the map to the ground first. Start with linear features (which could be handrails or collecting features), then get good at visualising contours.
It's worth practising using the compass needle to orientate the map for those occasions you can't quite get it to make sense from what you can see.
And compasses have very useful rulers along the edges for distances (and thus times).
But the advice I give everyone is leave bearings and pacings until you've got really good at the fundamental thing - being at one with a map. I've seen so many people who have focussed on their compass who miss obvious things they'd have known if they actually looked at the map.

Of course, everyone's different. And bearing and pacing work is fun. So if that's what you are enjoying, feel free to keep going at it, as that's how we all learn best!
I'm really not being patronising. Getting out in the hills and learning to navigate is what it's all about. As someone who doesn't remember learning to do this (I was taught by my dad when I was little), I find your journey is gratifying to follow.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: alan de enfield on 08:37:56, 27/04/19
………. but in the area I walked in it was full of animal waste and it really put me off for some reason.

............But I'm really having trouble identifying a location where walking on a bearing makes sense and is possible (no fences or walls in the way),



That is 'reality' and something that will always be 'in the way' when hiking - you need to follow footpaths, climb over stiles, cross rivers at bridges etc etc.


Navigation is not about getting from A-B in a straight line, but about getting there 'in one piece' without damaging hedges / walls / fences.
Sometimes you may need to make a detour of 'miles' to gain a few hundred yards.


Practice by all means but practice what you will come across when out hiking, not practice out of a textbook.


Practice standing in the middle of a 'field' with you local map - try and identify all of the features shown on the map.
Take a bearing from you to several of those features. you can now plot your exact location on the map.


Move a few miles and repeat - just get used to visualising the map in the actual terrain.


Worry about walking on a bearing sometime in the future.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 09:33:30, 27/04/19


Practice by all means but practice what you will come across when out hiking, not practice out of a textbook.


Practice standing in the middle of a 'field' with you local map - try and identify all of the features shown on the map.
Take a bearing from you to several of those features. you can now plot your exact location on the map.


Move a few miles and repeat - just get used to visualising the map in the actual terrain.

Worry about walking on a bearing sometime in the future.

I think this is good advice, there is a field out of my window with buildings and the corners of the field I can use to do this. I'd dismissed it before on account of the features all being too close and the field being too small but I'll give it a go later today.

Thanks Alan.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Mel on 10:05:36, 27/04/19
Totally agree with A de E and that field you mention sounds perfect  O0   It will also be perfect for when you get to the stage you are measuring distance and pacing.


You found your "learning" field  :)








Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 10:29:41, 27/04/19
Totally agree with A de E and that field you mention sounds perfect  O0   It will also be perfect for when you get to the stage you are measuring distance and pacing.


You found your "learning" field  :)

Thanks Mel, I've practiced pacing a little bit with a sat nav and a tally counter to see how accurate it was (pretty good) but I've not transferred it to measuring the distance on the map yet. I doubt I'll use it as much as you as I suspect it ruins the walk for me and there will hopefully normally be features to take bearings from but I understand sometimes it's essential and is used for boxing too which I would have used on Holme Fell instead of following the obvious path if I'd known it.

Thanks for confirming A de E's advice and taking an interest, as well as confirming my choice of field.

Edit: Grammar, terrible grammar. Also additional thanks for Mel.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: alan de enfield on 10:46:12, 27/04/19
Grammar, terrible grammar...



Yes, mine was terrible as well, but. not as bad as my Granpaa.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 10:52:51, 27/04/19

Rob, this is another link to navigation information that might help,you.


http://www.smw-ab.btck.co.uk/ (http://www.smw-ab.btck.co.uk/)
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: ninthace on 11:05:49, 27/04/19
I suspect once you will get some benefit from your field but not a lot.  Once you have got the map the right way up and identified features, both near and far, and taken bearings on them, that will be it I would have thought, especially given the size of the fields in Appleby.
Do not get too hung up on pacing and bearings. Boxing on Holme Fell would probably get you into more trouble in that kind of terrain (bog, slope, rocks and bracken). Walking on a bearing, pacing etc are more techniques for bad visibility, crossing relatively featureless terrain and going off piste.  As such you need to know them but first you need to be able to read a map to follow a route and work out where you are along it.  This is a piece of cake with gps but you still need to be able to do it without one, if only to appreciate what your gps display is telling you.
If you want to start simple, there are some physically easy walks in the area where you can map read your way along to gain confidence in your abilities. After all, you have already said you can map read to some extent. Perhaps the text book has overcomplicated things for you.  Take a walk down Smardale for example. It is a railway walk so you can’t get lost and you can concentrate on fixing your position and thumb your way along it. It has good features like bridges, buildings, water features and field boundaries. The landscape also changes considerably as you go along it so you can also start contour reading.
The Gaythorne Plain takes it to the next level. The fixing features are there but more subtle, apart from the line of the paths and their intersections but the area is bounded by roads so you cannot stray too far.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Mel on 11:08:30, 27/04/19
I think the field is a grand place to learn the techniques.  Then you practice on walks.   :)
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 11:25:56, 27/04/19
archaeoroutes, I don't know how I missed your post.

I've already got some experience relating the map to the ground because I've still been using maps to navigate, albeit digital ones. I can visualise some contour features such as hills and valleys, ridges, saddles, a rough idea of slope gradient (gentle, medium or steep).

I did practice orienting the map from the compass yesterday quite a bit.

I don't know how good most people are with visualising from the map but I suspect I'm ready to play with bearings.

I'm sure the hills are good practice too but I think my "learning field" as Mel called it is a good place to drill the techniques, then I can use them "in anger" on the hills when I remember them all. It would be different perhaps if someone was showing me by doing in the hills.

Time will tell!

Thanks ninthace I'll take all that under advisement and consider the Smardale walk. I'm not sure how good my contour reading is, I'm OK with contour features I think but am not so great at judging slope angles beyond gentle, medium and steep. I can't exactly "see the slopes" but I know roughly how steep they'll be.

Mel I didn't realise the semantic difference.

Mike thanks for the link I'll take a look now.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 14:37:35, 27/04/19
Boxing on Holme Fell would probably get you into more trouble in that kind of terrain (bog, slope, rocks and bracken).

Just a question about this, when I thought it was suitable I was thinking of using a stepped box as opposed to a pure box, still a bad idea?
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: ninthace on 15:31:26, 27/04/19
Just a question about this, when I thought it was suitable I was thinking of using a stepped box as opposed to a pure box, still a bad idea?
   I am assuming you are referring to the area of bog where you were trying to find the path behind the crag line?
Hard to say, I wasn't there on that day and didn't see the conditions, but I have been there in the past so I know the sort of terrain. You were there - you saw the vegetation, bogs and rocks up there - what's your opinion? Would it be practicable?  Could you see the line further on?  These all have a bearing on your decision.
The answer often varies with time of year too - at present the bracken has died back, you may be able to go off line without too much trouble, later it could be waist deep.
TBH, if there was evidence of a path going on an alternative line I may do what you did and take my chances on the scramble.  The more worn the track, the more popular the route.


In reality, these days if I was determined to take that route and if it was possible I would have gone off piste to work my way round and then used my gps to regain the line.  A lot less complicated  :)
In the old days I suspect I would have been too idle to box it and would done much the same thing and then used my compass and map to cut the line of the path at an oblique angle, provided I was sure there was a path to cut.  It is quite a confined area with good features so finding my way back to a known point shouldn't be too hard if I couldn't get round.
 

Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 15:41:14, 27/04/19
Thanks ninthace. Unfortunately I can't remember what I saw on the ground that caused me to go along the obvious path again. Maybe I'll go back someday and try and find the route!
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: archaeoroutes on 17:05:24, 27/04/19
Boxing is only really needed when visibility and/or ground mean you have to be spot on all the time.
So, I'm pacing a bearing for a kilometre in a white-out on a plateau and meet a rocky outcrop blocking my path. So as not to lose my bearing or pacing, I set the needle on east, pace 50, set it in north, pace 50, set it on west, pace 50, set it on north and resume my main pacing 50 paces on.

For avoiding a large area, it's easier to do normal bearings, just with intermediate points .
I'm walking on Dartmoor in the fog. I can see on the map there is a bog on the direct line between where I am and where I want to go. So I plot a bearing/pacing to something off to one side (perhaps even an imaginary point on the map) then when I'm there plot the leg to my destination. For some instances there could be two intermediate points.

Of course, all this assumes a lack of features that can be used for navigation. If possible I'd choose a route like turn right and follow the ridge to where it flattens into a shelf, walk on a bearing of x until I meet the stream, turn left and walk down the stream to where it gets steep, turn right and I am back on track.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: ninthace on 17:14:10, 27/04/19
And it boxing would be a sod of a technique in some of the forests I've been in  :)

Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Ridge on 17:18:49, 27/04/19
And it boxing would be a sod of a technique in some of the forests I've been in  :)
I think a lot of navigation techniques work on the principal that you are in a big flat open field but with no visibility. I understand why this is the case.
Most of the time in real life we end up using a combination of navigation to know where you are and where you should go.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: ninthace on 17:20:51, 27/04/19
Aircraft navigation is worse.  By the time you work out where you are, you aren't there anymore.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 17:49:30, 27/04/19
Thank you archaeoroutes and Ridge. I'll get the hang of what to use where I expect when I plot a few real routes and try to follow them!
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 14:32:12, 30/04/19
I suspect once you will get some benefit from your field but not a lot.  Once you have got the map the right way up and identified features, both near and far, and taken bearings on them, that will be it I would have thought, especially given the size of the fields in Appleby.

Totally correct, I spent a couple of hours pacing and measuring distance, taking bearings from features, taking bearings from the map, transferring a bearing from compass to map, walking on a bearing, back bearings, resection. I then tried to triangulate my position on the map other than with a resection and found that my chinagraph pencils are not sharp enough to pin down with the level of precision needed in a tiny Appleby field to be worth doing but really I can remember how to do that. Same with aiming off. Now I'm confident doing these things I can go practice them.

If you want to start simple, there are some physically easy walks in the area where you can map read your way along to gain confidence in your abilities. After all, you have already said you can map read to some extent. Perhaps the text book has overcomplicated things for you.  Take a walk down Smardale for example. It is a railway walk so you can’t get lost and you can concentrate on fixing your position and thumb your way along it. It has good features like bridges, buildings, water features and field boundaries. The landscape also changes considerably as you go along it so you can also start contour reading

The Gaythorne Plain takes it to the next level. The fixing features are there but more subtle, apart from the line of the paths and their intersections but the area is bounded by roads so you cannot stray too far.

Thinking of next place to go, Smardale? I already have been reading contours a bit, I've also not come across a ridge or a saddle before but knew what they would look like in the photo from the contours. I think I'm OK at the basics? Maybe I should go have a look and see how much Smardale looks like I think it does. I could practice slope aspect confirmation and relocation there too if I wandered a bit towards Smardale Fell but then again I could practice that if I went on another hill walk.

As for Gaythorne Plain, what's a fixing feature? I googled it and got nothing.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: ninthace on 15:07:28, 30/04/19

To include Smardale Fell.  Park as for Smardale at NY 73935 08235.  Walk N, E, S, back onto School Lane.  Fork right to go past Smardale Hall on the lane, pass under the railway line and follow the lane to the end,  NY 73778 07678.  A bridleway leads SSW up Smardale Fell to meet a bridleway crossing SW/NE.  Go SW (you are now on the Coast to Coast) to cross Scandal Beck at Smardale Bridge. Climb up from the beck a short distance to a footpath going ENE up to the railway. Do not cross the railway but drop down onto it and follow it generally NE back to the car park.
I do have a trace that includes this route but I will let you plan your own from the directions I have given you.


To answer the second question - a fixing feature is any feature on the map you can use to work out exactly where you are in the ground.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 15:15:47, 30/04/19
Thanks ninthace. One more question, is there a good way of telling when the contour slope direction changes when there are no obvious contour rings or numbers nearby? I've been caught out expecting the slope to keep going up and it suddenly goes down before.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: ninthace on 15:17:37, 30/04/19
Thanks ninthace. One more question, is there a good way of telling when the contour slope direction changes when there are no obvious contour rings or numbers nearby? I've been caught out expecting the slope to go up and it suddenly goes down before.
  By changes direction do you mean from up to down and vice versa?
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 15:20:48, 30/04/19
  By changes direction do you mean from up to down and vice versa?

Yes, I know you can tell slope direction from the direction of the numbers and also it's obvious if there are contour rings nearby but once (maybe there were rings nearby and I simply wasn't looking for them) I'd assumed I'd keep going up when at some point it started going down.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: ninthace on 15:42:17, 30/04/19
Yes, I know you can tell slope direction from the direction of the numbers and also it's obvious if there are contour rings nearby but once (maybe there were rings nearby and I simply wasn't looking for them) I'd assumed I'd keep going up when at some point it started going down.
The answer is usually, but not always - let me explain.  Your map will give you the bigger picture so you should be aware of where the high ground is which way the slopes are going and where the  folds in the landscape are - valleys and so on.  As you"zoom in" you have to retain this mental picture.  There are clues in the map - the obvious ones such as slope arrows on roads for example, or water courses which are usually, but not always, at the bottom of a valley - that sort of thing.  Then there are more subtle hints such as re-entrant contours which will indicate a gully and a down and up even if you do not actually cross any contours.  These things come with practice and experience, the ability to build a mental picture of the terrain.
That said you can get caught out in the short term.  Contours are either 10m or 5m apar.t.  It is useful to know which as ground can appear much steeper than it is if the contours are at 5m and you are used to 10 - Yes Tor on Dartmoor is a classic - on the OS map the contours are 10 on the sides and 5 on the N .  But I digress, the point is, if the contours are 10m apart, you can go down 9 and up 9 without cutting a contour.  Similarly I know of a section of moor by the Pennine Way near Middleton that looks fairly flat on the map but actually, has some substantial gullies in it.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 16:07:42, 30/04/19
I prepared the route in ViewRanger although I will transfer it to a paper map before walking it. Don't see much to be gained by preparing it on paper first and I can easily see the elevation profile this way. Here's the link, 7.3 km. Steep but short bit near Witches Stride puzzled be for a bit, I thought I'd made a mistake but it's all good experience.

https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1aOmtybRrowW9eVrlPfaIX-opIErDsPxi
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: ninthace on 16:36:22, 30/04/19
The route by Witches Stride is along a old railway line - do you think it will be steep?
Look at the contours there - if the plot is out by the merest smidge you will either be half way up a cliff or halfway down the embankment!  Even more likely since your plot is a straight line between WP30 & 31 so it clips the cliff!
The second point is the accuracy of the source map you were using, how wide is a railway track in reality and how wide is it on the map if you apply the scale?  Now throw in the underlying elevation data which is not continuous and even if the point were bang on on the map, as drawn, the elevation data could still be out.
Sometimes you have to use a bit of common sense when interpreting a profile.  Let me give you an example - the SWCP runs along the edge of some fairly high cliffs.  Therefore the line between waypoints could pass over the sea which would show a fairly steep climb!  Even if you were to lay a live gps trace onto the map - the elevation profile can be gibberish, a 15ft error in a fix could put you 50 feet higher or lower than you actually were.


Points to take away - maps are a small flat representation of a large and complex 3D surface with all the limitations inherent therein.
Gps maps and data are not infallible either.
Common sense counts for a lot.


One last thing, look at your route between WPs 11,12 & 13, see the pecked line cutting the corner by the field boundary?  Which way do you think it is most likely to go?
In this case experience says it could be either since the green line wiggles but if it were straight, my money would be on the pecked line
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 16:53:29, 30/04/19
The route by Witches Stride is along a old railway line - do you think it will be steep?
...

Gps maps and data are not infallible either.
Common sense counts for a lot.


One last thing, look at your route between WPs 11,12 & 13, see the pecked line cutting the corner by the field boundary?  Which way do you think it is most likely to go?
In this case experience says it could be either since the green line wiggles but if it were straight, my money would be on the pecked line

It did cross my mind that railways shouldn't be steep and I did look at the contour lines there, while mostly they go around the railway a couple of them ran under it which I guess is an error of the railway being mapped since railways are flat in my experience.

As for the pecked line, I was distracted by the green line, didn't even notice it. Will try harder. :)
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: ninthace on 16:57:36, 30/04/19
It did cross my mind that railways shouldn't be steep and I did look at the contour lines there, while mostly they go around the railway a couple of them ran under it which I guess is an error of the railway being mapped since railways are flat in my experience.

As for the pecked line, I was distracted by the green line, didn't even notice it. Will try harder. :)
Map reading is all about subtleties  :)
Sorry forgot to mention, the railway through the woods is a good place for red squirrels.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: archaeoroutes on 19:04:42, 30/04/19
Adding to what's already been said, there are some little clues you can look at. Most become subconscious over time and you just look and 'feel'.
One of my favourites, because it is easy to teach, is:
V-shaped contours are Valleys and U-shaped contours are spUrs.
Of course there are plenty of exceptions both ways, but it usually works pretty well. Take a look at the field system between your route and the road (taking in Smardale Intake) and ignore everything outside for this exercise. If you walk south, is that uphill or downhill?






Clue: There are two sets of V-contours pointing south. Those are little valleys cut into the slope.










Answer: Walking south would be uphill.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: archaeoroutes on 19:10:41, 30/04/19
I did look at the contour lines there, while mostly they go around the railway a couple of them ran under it which I guess is an error of the railway being mapped since railways are flat in my experience.
A contour line doesn't itself notate a big rise. It is the gap between them that denotes the 10m (or 5m or whatever). The loops of contour lines cutting across the railway could only denote a change of a few inches, just that it happened to hit the set altitude of the contour line.
Of course, the bigger factor is the cuttings and embankments shown which overide the countours.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: archaeoroutes on 19:14:28, 30/04/19
I've been caught out expecting the slope to keep going up and it suddenly goes down before.
Now this statement is a great sign that you are on the right tracks with your navigation learning. You expected something from looking at the map and noticed when the ground was different. This made you stop and work out what was happening, confirm that you were in the right place, and carry on.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 19:25:21, 30/04/19
Archaeoroutes good point about the contours and as for cuttings and embankments I don't actually know what those are though I recognise them from the map key and thought of them as part of the railway line. I'll look up what they are after this post.

I hope I catch you while around :)

I wanted to triangulate my position today beyond a resection so tried to use my chinagraph pencils. Hopeless, the line draws 2mm away from the edge of the compass the pencil is too fat. I could sharpen it with a knife I guess but then I've got to carry a knife to sharpen it. Is there any good chinagraph pencils you recommend? The photographs in my book are of Staedtler brand pencils so I'll buy them next time if not.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: ninthace on 19:42:26, 30/04/19
And just to show how reliable the OS can be, there is a map "error" just by the start.  The tree at NY 73997 08223 has four walls and a roof and has had since I first went there on 2011!.  OS maps are often years out of date in rural areas.  I have lost whole woods before now!  I once even came across a reservoir which wasn't on the map.  The terrain tends not to change though. 


For info: a railway line runs along the top of an embankment and through the bottom of a cutting.  Yet another example of  "fixing points"   Look at the embankment at NY 73644 08183 - it is at its widest here which means it is at its highest as it crosses the gill.  Similarly the end of the embankment at NY 71939 06092 just N of Smardale Bridge acts as a fix.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: ninthace on 19:43:08, 30/04/19
Archaeoroutes good point about the contours and as for cuttings and embankments I don't actually know what those are though I recognise them from the map key and thought of them as part of the railway line. I'll look up what they are after this post.

I hope I catch you while around :)

I wanted to triangulate my position today beyond a resection so tried to use my chinagraph pencils. Hopeless, the line draws 2mm away from the edge of the compass the pencil is too fat. I could sharpen it with a knife I guess but then I've got to carry a knife to sharpen it. Is there any good chinagraph pencils you recommend? The photographs in my book are of Staedtler brand pencils so I'll buy them next time if not.
  Try a water-based fibre tip pen - in the good old days we used those in the RAF.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 20:00:48, 30/04/19
  Try a fibre tip pen

Maybe. Everyone else is using chinagraph pencils but my lines are 50 real metres out on the 1:25000 maps. Perhaps I'm being [censored] and 50 m isn't a big deal in practice?
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: ninthace on 20:09:51, 30/04/19
Maybe. Everyone else is using chinagraph pencils but my lines are 50 real metres out on the 1:25000 maps. Perhaps I'm being [censored] and 50 m isn't a big deal in practice?
  They are?  I for one haven't drawn a line on a map for years except in the form of a route.  The alternative is to print your map out then you could use 2B pencil (rubs out easily), like real navigators do, and keep your big map clean.

Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 20:12:53, 30/04/19
Maybe. Everyone else is using chinagraph pencils but my lines are 50 real metres out on the 1:25000 maps. Perhaps I'm being [censored] and 50 m isn't a big deal in practice?


50m off laterally would make a big difference on Crib Goch or Striding Edge, but you would notice theat you were off course way before this by the rushing sound in your ears.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 20:28:15, 30/04/19
  They are?  I for one haven't drawn a line on a map for years except in the form of a route.  The alternative is to print your map out then you could use 2B pencil (rubs out easily), like real navigators do, and keep your big map clean.

The book teaches chinagraph pencils and archaeoroutes mentioned them. I'll consider printing my maps but it will be a pain to draw on in the rain and I did want to triangulate as practice even if I'll probably do little of it "in anger".
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: ninthace on 20:40:39, 30/04/19
If you are adamant about using a wax pencil, put the tip on the point you want to draw a line from, then slide the edge of your compass up to it on the rough bearing then rotate and if necessary slide the compass round the point until it is lined up with the grid lines, then draw the line.  I used to do it that way when drawing on perspex map displays.  I did it backwards too to it could be read from the other side.  We had to write backwards and do map references backwards too.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 20:49:59, 30/04/19
Part of the problem is the pencil has a 4mm wide tip you can't see where it's going to draw until you make a mark. Printing maps is a good idea, hopefully I don't need any of the missing detail (by which I mean the area not printed further afield than my route).
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: ninthace on 20:55:23, 30/04/19
These are what the professionals use. https://www.pooleys.com/shop/staedtler/propelling-pencils-staedtler/


These are the alternative if the ink works on your plastic https://www.pooleys.com/shop/staedtler/lumocolor-felt-pens/
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 21:33:20, 30/04/19
Thanks. I almost bought them but found slightly more precise pens on Amazon, so I got the pencil there too:

Staedtler Lumocolor 311 WP4 Universal Non Permanent Superfine Pens - Assorted Colours

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0007OEDOI/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_38kYCb4KMPPKW

Staedtler 0.3mm Mechanical Pencil Night Blue Series (925 35-03)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B003LOQ722/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_LblYCbWSXMXSA
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: archaeoroutes on 21:35:12, 30/04/19
Sorry. I wasn't being literal with the word chinagraph. Permanent OHP pens are good as long as there isn't water on the map as you draw. Edit: I see you've already found them (though I use the permanent ones with the black barrels).

To be honest, I've never had to resection on land in the UK in anger.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 21:39:25, 30/04/19
Sorry. I wasn't being literal with the word chinagraph. Permanent OHP pens are good as long as there isn't water on the map as you draw. Edit: I see you've already found them (though I use the permanent ones with the black barrels).

Thanks. I saw this on a Google (Outdoors Magic forum) that people use permanent ones but then to remove them you need meths or makeup remover pads which apparently if you don't clean off properly eat through the laminate. Didn't fancy it, maybe I errored with the non-permanent ones, I can always buy the permanent ones too they're not expensive.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 21:25:06, 02/05/19
Is this (https://maps.app.goo.gl/KgtewFpmpyKQSURs5) the Smardale parking ninthace? Just want to be sure I don't park on someone's land and they trash my car. Looks full in Google StreetView, hopefully not so full when I turn up.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: ninthace on 21:26:18, 02/05/19
Yep!
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: archaeoroutes on 19:16:00, 18/06/19
How's it going?
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 19:58:45, 18/06/19
I haven't been out properly (I've walked around town and in local woods) since due to constant predictions of bad weather. Today would have been a good day but I had a delivery coming that I was super excited about and didn't want to miss.

I haven't given up on it, I will be out soon bad weather or not but I really wanted good weather due to overheating issues in my raincoat (which is a bit big on me now) and wanting to draw on A4 printed maps not faff around with the laminated OS maps.

Saturday and Sunday currently look promising, weather wise.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 16:13:52, 02/08/19
Right. I'm going tomorrow regardless of the weather though it looks OK in the morning on both Accuweather and the BBC. I've just printed out an A4 map at the library again as I lost the last one and have sat down to read a recap on navigation as it's no longer fresh in my memory. It's time to test drive the lighter weight gym fuelled vehicle on a proper walk. 12k steps so far today but it's just the gym and wandering around Appleby  :-\ Apologies to those who were interested for the long delay. Will let you know how it goes.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Hillhiker1 on 17:26:00, 02/08/19
Glad to hear you're back on it Rob  O0
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 18:14:58, 02/08/19
Glad to hear you're back on it Rob  O0

Thank you Ian.

All this navigation reading is giving me a headache! I spent a couple of days studying it last time cramming it in an afternoon was a bad idea. I'm going to turn up, thumb myself along, do a bit of pacing, mess about taking bearings and slope aspects and hope I learn something useful. Got to be a start.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Hillhiker1 on 19:02:11, 02/08/19
Instead of giving yourself a headache, why not just do a walk you've done before and relax?  :)
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 19:12:11, 02/08/19
I was tempted to do Loadpot Hill again as I'm curious how much easier it is now I'm 60 lbs lighter and somewhat fitter. Also was tempted to do another walk ninthace suggested by the military training zone as I'd like to pick up a walk I can reuse for exercise that won't bore me like wondering around Appleby will when I can no longer make up reasons to keep changing location. But no, the navigation thing needs seeing to even if only so I can go back to using a satnav again!
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Hillhiker1 on 19:19:16, 02/08/19
60 pounds lighter! Wow! Well done. O0 O0
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 11:09:33, 03/08/19
Thanks.

Should have taken some pictures of what happened but I've only just thought of that. I'll describe it.

I got out there, rocked up at 6:50. Handrailed my way along for a while then the path vanished and I couldn't see any features so I got out ViewRanger  ;D ::) after I'd got a handrail back it occurred to me I should have taken a bearing on the map and walked on it. Oh well. Handrailed my way to just after Smardale Bridge then for some reason got ViewRanger out again. A passing chap told me the route we'd plotted wouldn't work and pointed out a gate I could use instead. I put ViewRanger away again and got to the viaduct but it was closed, so I handrailed my back over Smardale Fell (which was easy as there were walls and paths everywhere) getting the compass out once to check which path to take making me wonder how I lost all the features on the way out.

At least I got some practice even if it was really basic and I got out on a nature walk again.

I'll have to find somewhere else to practice more as I didn't do any bearings or slope aspect stuff, I was enjoying the walk too much to stop and faff about. Bit of a shame but there will be other walks now I'm back on it.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: ninthace on 15:00:36, 03/08/19
If you look at the map there is a path that runs beside Smardale Gill from the east end of Smardale Bridge, starting at NY 72244 05967 and finishing at the northern end of the viaduct NY 72734 06934.  It is a perfectly practicable path that can be used if the viaduct is closed.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 15:24:07, 03/08/19
If you look at the map there is a path that runs beside Smardale Gill from the east end of Smardale Bridge, starting at NY 72244 05967 and finishing at the northern end of the viaduct NY 72734 06934.  It is a perfectly practicable path that can be used if the viaduct is closed.

So there is, I didn't even think to look there. There was a map on the viaduct too showing another path around that crosses the beck but I wasn't sure I interpreted it correctly (it wasn't an OS map) and cowardly chose the long route back rather than risk wandering all the way up there and having to double back on myself.

Also I thought I saw a route I could have taken on the OS map, but wasn't sure what I was looking at, I couldn't find what the dotted line was and it's been a while, what is it?

(https://i.ibb.co/W0cjNKX/Screenshot-20190803-151913-View-Ranger.jpg)
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: ninthace on 15:33:40, 03/08/19
That's a Parish Boundary!
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 15:39:27, 03/08/19
That's a Parish Boundary!

Glad I didn't assume it was a path then. It looked like a parish boundary on the key but it just started in the middle of nowhere so I thought I'd got it wrong.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: ninthace on 15:59:01, 03/08/19
Actually you can see it running all the way up the Gill.  There is nothing down there but hardship!  I have never seen or heard of the viaduct being closed. What was the reason?


Incidentally, when the wind is right the viaduct sings as the air blows over holes in the railings.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 16:05:05, 03/08/19
It runs up the Gill but it starts... oh wait it runs east by Smardale bridge and I didn't realise, I'm being dozy today, also bought some lunch by mistake that doesn't strictly fit in with my diet and didn't realise until I'd eaten it, first time I've done that too (though I bought the wrong drink by mistake last week).

I can't remember the reason, they're doing work on unstable something, might have been railings, might be a figment of my imagination.
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 16:15:23, 03/08/19
Where shall I go next ninthace? I think I'm going to check out your Warcop route as a walk but it won't be much navigation practice, maybe on Wednesday though the weather looks rubbish.

Incidentally my waist is now only 0.7 cm too big for a Lhoste Jacket, I'm days away from it fitting me. Pity I'm drowning in debt... Maybe I'll get one anyway going to be in debt until mid 2021 anyway what's another 3 months of it...
Title: Re: Overweight hiker navigation thread
Post by: archaeoroutes on 16:54:11, 03/08/19
The dotted line is a boundary,  as mentioned earlier. However, where your arrow is it appears to coincide with a path (dashed line).