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Main Boards => Gear => Topic started by: Greytop on 18:28:24, 12/08/20

Title: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: Greytop on 18:28:24, 12/08/20
I have recently purchased the OS maps subscription and overall I am quite happy with it.
However I find one thing annoying, when following a route my triangle on the route continually points north, rather than the direction I am travelling in.
I have tried everything and cannot seem to resolve this.
Any ideas anyone?
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: WhitstableDave on 19:04:15, 12/08/20
Interesting question...

I have OS Maps on my phone, although I rarely use the app because I have a SatMap 20.

Using my phone, I've tried going offline and switching off Location, but I can't reproduce your problem.

However, like most modern phones, my phone has a compass sensor. Could it be that you have an older phone without one?.. and that the OS app needs one?
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: GnP on 19:21:11, 12/08/20
I think it depends on your phone and it isn`t just down to the OS app alone .It depends on what type of sensors your phone has.

I had a phone that could only show my position on the map and the cursor always pointed north which used to frustrate me . Then I bought a CAT phone and the cursor pointed in my direction of travel , which was nice .
I think it is the magnetometer sensor that allows the cursor to show direction of travel , I but could be wrong
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: sussamb on 19:28:28, 12/08/20
Definitely the phone and not the app  O0
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: Greytop on 20:25:45, 12/08/20
Thank you for your replies much food for thought, although my phone is relatively new it is a Huawei and I have just read that it doesn't have a compass for some reason, or more to the point a magnetic sensor.
I will try downloading a compass app and see if that will help, though without a magnetic sensor I doubt it.
If not I will just have to put up with it I guess.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: fatmanwalking on 23:40:40, 12/08/20
Funnily enough I met someone out walking last week who didn't have compass either. He had a new phone too.

Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: GoneWest on 07:30:14, 13/08/20
Funnily enough I met someone out walking last week who didn't have compass either. He had a new phone too.

It's fairly simple: expensive phones have compasses; cheap ones don't. People who have subscriptions (as opposed to PAYG) are more likely to have expensive phones, as part of the deal, and possibly take such features a bit for granted.  ;)
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: fernman on 09:05:21, 13/08/20
I have just read that it doesn't have a compass for some reason, or more to the point a magnetic sensor.
I will try downloading a compass app and see if that will help, though without a magnetic sensor I doubt it.

I'm pretty sure you'll find that a compass app won't work either, as your phone is not compass enabled. That is the case with my phone. It'll probably warn you when you install one.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: BuzyG on 13:24:22, 13/08/20
Same as most of the above posts.  The arrow on OSApp screen, on my phone, points in the direction I am walking. I use a mag compass all of the time anyway though.  I find it much quicker a easier to read than the phone app will ever be.


No batteries or pointless buttons to press.  O0
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: gunwharfman on 13:43:47, 13/08/20
I've always assumed its the app that matters? For example, I use the Backcountry app with its built-in OS maps and when I tap my location button to find the direction that I want to go it's always easy. I tap the location button and the arrow on-screen shows me the North, I tap it again and it shows me a 360-degree and if I tap it again it shows me another view. I tend to be only interested in my way ahead. There is also a small compass at the bottom of the screen and if I want to I can have a full-screen compass as well. So easy for me, I have no real idea how to use a map I just follow the arrow!

I use another app when in Europe.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: WhitstableDave on 16:25:27, 13/08/20
I've always assumed its the app that matters?...

The app reads the output from a piece of hardware called a magnetometer, which is in one of the chips in the phone. Combined with outputs from other physical sensors, the app can do the necessary calculations to display a compass direction (or rotate the map). So basically, the phone needs an actual compass to know which way it's pointing.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: gunwharfman on 16:31:53, 13/08/20
So it needs an app, right?  :)
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: gunwharfman on 16:32:58, 13/08/20
Is this subject a recognition that some apps are better than others?
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: WhitstableDave on 16:37:38, 13/08/20
So it needs an app, right?  :)

An application will be needed to display the results (e.g. a compass direction), but it can only do that if the phone has a physical 'compass' built in in the first place.

So you're correct that the app matters, but not that it's the app that matters. Both components matter! ;)
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: WhitstableDave on 16:38:14, 13/08/20
Is this subject a recognition that some apps are better than others?

At doing what?..
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: Greytop on 16:43:13, 13/08/20
Well I have partly solved it to get the direction indicator working.
With my phone not having the necessary hardware ie. a magnetron, I downloaded an app that is a compass that is derived from the GPS.
This works fine as long as I am moving, however when you stop say bye bye to the compass.
So my OS mapping works really good when I am on my bike, though not so good when I am walking, unless I walk reasonably fast.  ;D ;D ;D ;D In answer to the post by gunwharfman you cannot really blame the app at all, only the phone, for not having the necessary hardware namely the magnetic sensor.    
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: WhitstableDave on 16:54:41, 13/08/20
...With my phone not having the necessary hardware ie. a magnetron...

I use a magnetron to make my Oat So Simple every morning!  ;)

(Sorry, couldn't resist!)
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: Greytop on 17:05:39, 13/08/20
I use a magnetron to make my Oat So Simple every morning!  ;)

(Sorry, couldn't resist!)


 :tickedoff: :tickedoff: :tickedoff: :tickedoff: :tickedoff: :tickedoff: :tickedoff: :tickedoff: :tickedoff: :tickedoff: :tickedoff: :tickedoff: :tickedoff: :tickedoff: :tickedoff:
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: gunwharfman on 18:13:40, 13/08/20
As a try, why not download the 'free' Backcountry app and see if it works in the way that you want it to. If not just delete it.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: GnP on 19:35:48, 13/08/20
I do not see how downloading another app , albeit a compass , will tell the ordnance survey app to point the cursor in direction of travel . The OS app already knows where North is .  ???
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: ninthace on 19:53:38, 13/08/20
I do not see how downloading another app , albeit a compass , will tell the ordnance survey app to point the cursor in direction of travel . The OS app already knows where North is .  ???
Absolutely right, either a phone has a built in compass or it doesn't.  Adding an app will not help unless the compass is present.  The GPS hardware can only tell the phone where is in 3 dimensions.  If you move between gps readings, an app can tell you in which direction and how far you have travelled but not which way you are facing.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: Greytop on 20:04:36, 13/08/20
I do not see how downloading another app , albeit a compass , will tell the ordnance survey app to point the cursor in direction of travel . The OS app already knows where North is .  ???


Well I can assure you it does, I tested it out on my bike.
I assume because the os app requires access to a compass to enable the cursor to show the direction of travel. Same goes for Google maps I guess, because that previously did not show direction of travel and does now, providing  you keep moving.
Previously os maps still showed your progression on a route albeit with the arrow pointing north. Now it shows progression with the arrow pointing in the direction of travel.
Works well on my bike not so well while walking.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: GnP on 20:09:58, 13/08/20
At doing what?..

Doing their thing ... 8)
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: WhitstableDave on 20:13:39, 13/08/20
Absolutely right, either a phone has a built in compass or it doesn't.  Adding an app will not help unless the compass is present.  The GPS hardware can only tell the phone where is in 3 dimensions.  If you move between gps readings, an app can tell you in which direction and how far you have travelled but not which way you are facing.

Spot on. My first GPS watch (Garmin Vivoactive) could tell me in which direction I was walking... but only while I was actually moving.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: ninthace on 20:27:09, 13/08/20

Well I can assure you it does, I tested it out on my bike.
I assume because the os app requires access to a compass to enable the cursor to show the direction of travel. Same goes for Google maps I guess, because that previously did not show direction of travel and does now, providing  you keep moving.
Previously os maps still showed your progression on a route albeit with the arrow pointing north. Now it shows progression with the arrow pointing in the direction of travel.
Works well on my bike not so well while walking.
Try stopping and facing in a constant direction for a few minutes.  If the direction indicator hunts - it was using dead reckoning from the gps to interpolate the direction you are faced - not a compass.  Second check. before you set off on your bike, does it know which direction you are facing?  A compass will, gps won't.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: gunwharfman on 20:39:39, 13/08/20
I'm now confused, the original comment said 'when following a route my triangle on the route continually points north, rather than the direction I am travelling in' and I have explained that my Backcountry app does what the writer wants (and more) without any problems at all. I've had this app on three separate smartphones and its on my tablet and none of them, or the app, has never failed me. As a lay person it would suggest to me that if the individual is using a smartphone why not try other apps, their seems to be a lot of them? Do they actually make smartphones with something missing, if they do dump the phone and buy another one. Thats the best answer I can come up with. For between £100-£200 you can by a 'world beating' one.  :)

Mine cost far less than £200, has two SIM slots and has another phone hidden inside it as well. I have three apps with built in compasses, more than I know what to do with. I've never learned how to use the 'hidden phone' but want to as soon as I can, it might be a good place to 'hide' my Last Pass and banking app?
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: Greytop on 20:43:38, 13/08/20
Try stopping and facing in a constant direction for a few minutes.  If the direction indicator hunts - it was using dead reckoning from the gps to interpolate the direction you are faced - not a compass.  Second check. before you set off on your bike, does it know which direction you are facing?  A compass will, gps won't.


I disagree with gps locked on to satellites, will always be able to know your direction of travel due to your relative movement between the satellites. If you look on google play you will see many apps that utilise GPS to produce a very accurate compass readings, BUT only when you are moving, If you are stationary no it cannot .
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: Greytop on 20:49:56, 13/08/20
I'm now confused, the original comment said 'when following a route my triangle on the route continually points north, rather than the direction I am travelling in  

 
Yes but as I explained in my original post it is annoying rather than a great problem. The triangle still follows the designated route it's just that while doing that the arrow points north. No big deal, just annoying as I said originally. Overall the OS Maps app works very well and well worth the money.  
Why ditch it when everything else works well, especially now I have got the compass working albeit only when I am moving.  
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: ninthace on 20:54:50, 13/08/20

I disagree with gps locked on to satellites, will always be able to know your direction of travel due to your relative movement between the satellites. If you look on google play you will see many apps that utilise GPS to produce a very accurate compass readings, BUT only when you are moving, If you are stationary no it cannot .
That is what I said.  It is not a compass, it is using dead reckoning  to call calculate your course, that is why you have to be moving. Try looking at the compass reading while walking sideways so the phone is at a right angle to your direction of travel.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: GnP on 20:55:31, 13/08/20

 with gps locked on to satellites, will always be able to know your direction of travel due to your relative movement between the satellites.
I believe that was what Ninthace said but I`m sure he will put me right if not .

Its just that a phone needs a magnetometer sensor along with a gyroscopic compass sensor to show direction of travel .The thing I cannot fathom is how a phone that didn`t show direction of travel on the OS mapping app , can then show it , by downloading another app . One cannot download a sensor that does that , one which shows north and direction of travel .
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: BuzyG on 10:07:23, 14/08/20
I believe that was what Ninthace said but I`m sure he will put me right if not .

Its just that a phone needs a magnetometer sensor along with a gyroscopic compass sensor to show direction of travel .The thing I cannot fathom is how a phone that didn`t show direction of travel on the OS mapping app , can then show it , by downloading another app . One cannot download a sensor that does that , one which shows north and direction of travel .


An app that new where it was at two or more points relative to an OS map grid north, could calculate it.  Not sure that any of them do that.  It would require the map down load to contain information on which way was grid north relative to the map down load. Simple trig after that.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: ninthace on 10:42:09, 14/08/20
There is a subtle distinction between course (or track) and heading. Most of the time, when walking or cycling it does not matter but it certainly does when flying or sailing. You need a compass to determine heading but a gps can tell you your course or track.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: Misty on 08:41:40, 23/08/20
Am I the only person who doesn't have a smart phone and still carries around paper OS maps and a plastic compass if necessary?!
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: archaeoroutes on 08:57:25, 23/08/20
The thing I cannot fathom is how a phone that didn`t show direction of travel on the OS mapping app , can then show it , by downloading another app . One cannot download a sensor that does that , one which shows north and direction of travel .
It is possible that installing the new app changed a setting, telling apps to use movement and GPS to indicate direction instead of the non-existent magnetometer. If so, simply changing that setting manually would have had the same effect.


Do they actually make smartphones with something missing
Definitely.


Am I the only person who doesn't have a smart phone and still carries around paper OS maps and a plastic compass if necessary?!
Not at all. I do mostly. However, I do use smartphone mapping in some circumstances:
I am somewhere wanting walk unexpectedly and haven't brought a map.
I am teaching nav and follow the candidate with GPS recording on so I can review what they did with them in a nice visual way.
What I cannot get on with at all is:
Planning a route on the fly on a tiny screen.
Following car sat nav style directions while walking (though I do publish walks people can follow in this style if they want).
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: WhitstableDave on 08:59:24, 23/08/20
Am I the only person who doesn't have a smart phone and still carries around paper OS maps and a plastic compass if necessary?!
I don't think so. I still occasionally pass someone who is studying a map while looking confused.  ;)
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 10:13:46, 23/08/20
I have never used a phone or gps device for navigation.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: ninthace on 11:10:53, 23/08/20
Am I the only person who doesn't have a smart phone and still carries around paper OS maps and a plastic compass if necessary?!
Many of the hikers I see coming through on the 2 Moors Way still have maps flapping about so you are in good company.

In more remote country I used to have a map tucked away in my pack though it was never used in anger in nearly 10 years.  Nowadays I leave it behind.  I did also go through a period of carrying A4 printouts of the relevant parts of the map in my pocket but I stopped doing that too for most of my walks, as my phone and memory are perfectly adequate.  My previous phone had a screen that was hard to read in full daylight but I used a Garmin as my main device anyway.  My latest phone is much better but I still use my Garmin when out on the moors or on a complicated route but I am normally paperless.

I do not even use paper maps to plan routes these days.  Instead it is an armchair job with a laptop.

I have a compass in the waistband pocket of my pack - or at least I think I do.  I have not actually used it to navigate since 2011
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: RMR on 11:46:46, 23/08/20
Am I the only person who doesn't have a smart phone and still carries around paper OS maps and a plastic compass if necessary?!
I carry a map & compass as I have never had to recharge them. Waterproof Harvey maps whenever possible, the XT40 Ultramaps are great in wet/windy conditions.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: WhitstableDave on 15:00:01, 23/08/20
I could well be missing something here, but I've never understood how a paper map can be the preferred option when walking in extensive woodlands. I can see how a compass might be useful, but not a paper map.

I live within easy walking distance of the Blean, which is ancient woodland covering over 11 square miles and where I do a lot of my walking.

In the woods, paths are unreliable. Some that are marked on maps no longer exist on the ground. Paths exist on the ground that are not shown on maps. Paths sometimes look as though they'll head in a certain direction, only to twist and turn and head in completely the opposite direction. Landmarks are rare or non-existent. Path junctions can be a nightmare!

An example: Recently, I was following a PRoW footpath in the woods when the path on the ground began to diverge from the path shown on my Satmap handheld GPS. I continued following the path on the ground while keeping an eye on the Satmap so as to know where the path ought to be. When the undergrowth looked okay to tackle, I left the wrong path and used the Satmap to cross directly towards the line of the correct path, which I found. I was then able to continue on my way. I have never been lost in the woods, or followed the wrong path for long when carrying a GPS device.

I don't see how a paper map (and compass) would have helped in that situation.

The important point (I feel) is this: A GPS device shows me precisely where I am on the map. A paper map needs me to know exactly where I am on the map before it's of any use. In the woods without GPS, it's often extremely difficult for someone to know exactly where they are. In the woods, a required path can be just a few yards away through the trees and, while remaining invisible to the eye, be completely obvious on the GPS map.

(Having said all that, I do realise that many walkers prefer to stick to open hilly areas where navigation tends to be (in my experience) far easier.  ;) )
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: GnP on 15:10:51, 23/08/20
I think l know why l take a map with me when walking.. It is the same as keeping an old jacket in the wardrobe.. I can't bear to throw it away. l still love it.. So many memories..  :)
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: RMR on 15:12:15, 23/08/20
I could well be missing something here, but I've never understood how a paper map can be the preferred option when walking in extensive woodlands. I can see how a compass might be useful, but not a paper map.

I live within easy walking distance of the Blean, which is ancient woodland covering over 11 square miles and where I do a lot of my walking.

In the woods, paths are unreliable. Some that are marked on maps no longer exist on the ground. Paths exist on the ground that are not shown on maps. Paths sometimes look as though they'll head in a certain direction, only to twist and turn and head in completely the opposite direction. Landmarks are rare or non-existent. Path junctions can be a nightmare!

An example: Recently, I was following a PRoW footpath in the woods when the path on the ground began to diverge from the path shown on my Satmap handheld GPS. I continued following the path on the ground while keeping an eye on the Satmap so as to know where the path ought to be. When the undergrowth looked okay to tackle, I left the wrong path and used the Satmap to cross directly towards the line of the correct path, which I found. I was then able to continue on my way. I have never been lost in the woods, or followed the wrong path for long when carrying a GPS device.

I don't see how a paper map (and compass) would have helped in that situation.

The important point (I feel) is this: A GPS device shows me precisely where I am on the map. A paper map needs me to know exactly where I am on the map before it's of any use. In the woods without GPS, it's often extremely difficult for someone to know exactly where they are. In the woods, a required path can be just a few yards away through the trees and, while remaining invisible to the eye, be completely obvious on the GPS map.

(Having said all that, I do realise that many walkers prefer to stick to open hilly areas where navigation tends to be (in my experience) far easier.  ;) )
[/quote
I admit to losing a path in woodland on a few occasions but have used a compass to get out, tbh most woods I've come across are not that big so not a great life threatening situation. Before everyone started using GPS I can't remember seeing woods full of walkers wandering around aimlessly. I trust my map & compass 100%
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: WhitstableDave on 16:07:00, 23/08/20
I admit to losing a path in woodland on a few occasions but have used a compass to get out, tbh most woods I've come across are not that big so not a great life threatening situation. Before everyone started using GPS I can't remember seeing woods full of walkers wandering around aimlessly. I trust my map & compass 100%.

Perhaps I should add that carrying a handheld GPS means that you are actually carrying a (zoom-able) map in your hand, and a compass as well. The difference is only that the GPS will tell you exactly where you are on the map you're carrying. Some people will also have a map and compass on their phone and/or watch as well as a traditional compass tucked away in their pack. It's rarely an either/or choice.

I'm not sure that everyone has started using GPS, but even so... in my experience, woods are not only never full of walkers, but neither have they ever been full of walkers. Except within doggy-walking-distance of a woodland car park, it's rare to see a soul in our local woods and extremely rare to see anyone at all once you leave the main tracks.

(BTW, I did say that a compass might be useful. It was a paper map that I wondered about!)
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: RMR on 16:20:18, 23/08/20
When I said woods were full of walkers it was in reply to you saying that you need GPS to find your way, I was saying that it follows that pre GPS people must have been lost in woods. I just cannot understand people that walk with a GPS device in their hand all the time, why do they need to know exactly where they are all the time?. If they are so worried just stay at home, no sense of adventure albeit on a small scale.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 16:36:37, 23/08/20
I have never felt the need for a compass or map walking in woods and have never used GPS for walking. When I lived in England, I often walked in the New Forest and always knew the direction to the car. Perhaps I was navigating subconsciously, taking account of sun, wind and sounds?


Navigation is by no means easier on open hills or moorland than in woods in poor weather conditions, which are frequent in upland Britain.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: RMR on 16:44:17, 23/08/20
With ref to hills & moor navigation I totally agree with you.  I would rather be on Kinder Scout in bad weather with map & compass than with a low level battery power GPS.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: WhitstableDave on 16:52:07, 23/08/20
When I said woods were full of walkers it was in reply to you saying that you need GPS to find your way, I was saying that it follows that pre GPS people must have been lost in woods. I just cannot understand people that walk with a GPS device in their hand all the time, why do they need to know exactly where they are all the time?. If they are so worried just stay at home, no sense of adventure albeit on a small scale.

I sometimes use GPS to find my way. I imagine a proportion of the few who do venture further into woods than within dog-walking range of a car park (and I'm talking 'extensive' woods of several square miles here) do get themselves lost for a while. However, I expect that since GPS became widely available, fewer people get lost than before.

I use a handheld GPS, but only when I think it will be of use, otherwise I leave it at home. Personally, I like knowing exactly where I am - and how far there is still to go. I like seeing at a glance the ascents ahead (on a chart as well in addition to contours) and all the other little bonuses a GPS device provides. I also like passing people (usually they're standing by stiles for some reason) who are turning their paper maps this way and that trying to work out which way to go.

But I also like to be adventurous: For example, only this morning my wife and I did a 10km run almost entirely in woodland without the aid of any navigation equipment at all!   10km Woods Run  (http://www.walkingforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=35618.msg590121#msg590121)  :)
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: RMR on 17:06:59, 23/08/20
I'm sure that the people turning maps this way and that are learning more about the landscape than someone staring at a screen. Orientation of the map and taking a bearing are all part of a good walk and also a great skill to have.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: WhitstableDave on 17:07:22, 23/08/20
With ref to hills & moor navigation I totally agree with you.  I would rather be on Kinder Scout in bad weather with map & compass than with a low level battery power GPS.

Now you're skewing the hypothetical proposition by referring to low battery power for the GPS.

To level the playing field, perhaps your soggy paper map could be blown out of your hands and heading for Kinder Downfall...  ;)

Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: RMR on 17:10:15, 23/08/20
Only use waterproof Harvey maps,so not a problem. Also  can usually get across Kinder without a map but carry one just in case.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 17:18:17, 23/08/20
I think those going out with a map and compass would probably have at least some idea how to navigate and how to get themselves out of trouble by identifying an escape route that avoids the major hazards. Using a gps or phone app needs no such knowledge, so if things don’t go to plan for many people it can be like lambs to the slaughter.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: ninthace on 17:21:27, 23/08/20
With ref to hills & moor navigation I totally agree with you.  I would rather be on Kinder Scout in bad weather with map & compass than with a low level battery power GPS.
Conversely - I would rather be in bad country in bad weather with a gps and phone.  For a start they don't flap about or need refolding.  These days the low battery argument is bogus.  I never set off without adequate power reserves anymore than I would have set off without the right map.  My gps batteries will last longer than I can and I have spares.  The phone is a back up to the gps and will last for several days.  In dire straights, I can send an SMS for help and, with the gps, I can tell people precisely where I am.  Moreover, walking with a gps - I never get lost in the first place so way finding is much easier.
Granted, if I was going into rough country and there was the possibility of bad conditions, I might put a map and compass in my pack, as they weigh very little, just as a last resort but I would not expect to use them.  I have been out on Dartmoor, up in the Lakes, out in the North Pennines up in the Dales in next to no visibilty and I have never had to fall back on them since I went over to technology.   I am one of those you will see from time to time walking holding my gps.  It usually means either, I am trying to precisely follow a route I have plotted through bad ground from aerial imagery, or I am trying to stay on a right of way that is not visible on the ground.  It can also mean I am looking for a turning off my current path that is not apparent on the ground.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: WhitstableDave on 17:24:07, 23/08/20
Only use waterproof Harvey maps,so not a problem. Also  can usually get across Kinder without a map but carry one just in case.

And they can't blow away in bad weather? Fair enough, I expect you use a lanyard.  :)

But you think the battery might run down on my GPS device?  ;)

By an amazing coincidence, my wife and I did a Kinder Scout circuit last year from Hayfield. Pretty hard to get lost with those stone slab paths and extremely worn tracks - not to mention people everywhere!
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: WhitstableDave on 17:36:53, 23/08/20
... or I am trying to stay on a right of way that is not visible on the ground.  It can also mean I am looking for a turning off my current path that is not apparent on the ground.

Thanks for that ninthace, I'd forgotten about following an invisible PRoW.  O0

This is something I have to do a lot, since I do most of my walking over and around agricultural land. I enter a field with a mature crop with no visible path through it where there should be one. Very reluctantly (and if there's no reasonable alternative), I walk through the crop along the precise line of the RoW. (In my mind I'm usually having a conversation with an irate farmer, where I confidently explain that I have every right to be exactly where I am!)

While paper map -users might say they simply walk directly towards the exit of the field, I must point out that a PRoW will not always follow a straight line across a field - dog-legs are common. Also, a hump or whatever in the middle of a field can easily hide the exit.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: ninthace on 17:39:28, 23/08/20
I think those going out with a map and compass would probably have at least some idea how to navigate and how to get themselves out of trouble by identifying an escape route that avoids the major hazards. Using a gps or phone app needs no such knowledge, so if things don’t go to plan for many people it can be like lambs to the slaughter.
That is a non sequitur.  As an experienced walker, I can read a map on a screen or paper to get myself out of trouble.  The advantage of a screen is I can relocate my position instantly.  An inexperienced walker can no more make sense of a map on a screen or paper.  At least on a screen they can see where they are so perhaps have a fighting chance. 

Where there have been problems. it transpires the problem is often an inappropriate choice of map such as GoogleMaps.  What we do not have data on is walkers who have not called out the MRTs because they were able to find there way off the hill using a mapping app but would have been incapable of doing it usin a paper map and compass - which is an altogether blacker art.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: Greytop on 17:44:27, 23/08/20
With ref to hills & moor navigation I totally agree with you.  I would rather be on Kinder Scout in bad weather with map & compass than with a low level battery power GPS.


I certainly agree there, when out walking I love to use a map to navigate and also to get a flavour of the surrounding area. If I get lost, or I prefer to say go off route🙄🙄
Then my garmin watch gives me a grid reference to tell me where I am.
Where I use a mapping app (os maps) is in cycling. With cycling you can get very lost very quickly and if you are doing a 60 miler you cannot, or don't want to keep stopping and referring to a paper map. So I set the route and follow it on the app. Though I always carry a map just in case, belt and braces!!!!
In the car I don't use my satnav as I prefer to use a road map to get to my destination. The exception to that is if I get to an unknown town and I need to find my way to a particular place, or street.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: Greytop on 17:48:26, 23/08/20
Quote


By an amazing coincidence, my wife and I did a Kinder Scout circuit last year from Hayfield. Pretty hard to get lost with those stone slab paths and extremely worn tracks - not to mention people everywhere!


Crossing Kinder in a mist is another matter.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: WhitstableDave on 17:58:02, 23/08/20
I think those going out with a map and compass would probably have at least some idea how to navigate and how to get themselves out of trouble by identifying an escape route that avoids the major hazards. Using a gps or phone app needs no such knowledge, so if things don’t go to plan for many people it can be like lambs to the slaughter.

I know I shouldn't generalise from what I do, but I do think I'm fairly typical in this respect...

I spend far, far, far longer working on and planning routes on my PC using the OS Maps website at home than I do looking at my Satmap GPS when out on a walk.

I used to plan walks using a huge paper map spread out on the living room floor and I'd make notes on a piece of paper to take with me along with the map. Now I plan routes on my PC and transfer them to my Satmap. That doesn't mean I've lost the ability to navigate, or to carry a mental image of the basic route in my head, or to make use of the position of the sun and satellite dishes, or to read a map as well as anyone, or even to use a magnetic compass.

My GPS device makes me more adventurous, not less. Not using one ought not to be seen as a badge of honour, just a matter of choice.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: WhitstableDave on 18:01:17, 23/08/20

Crossing Kinder in a mist is another matter.
So how does using a paper map and compass make life easier in the mist than using the same map on a GPS device? (which, of course, also has a compass). (And yes, I'm carrying spare batteries!  ;) )
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: Greytop on 18:14:55, 23/08/20
So how does using a paper map and compass make life easier in the mist than using the same map on a GPS device? (which, of course, also has a compass).


It doesn't and I didn't imply that it did, I was replying to a post that stated navigating Kinder on the periphery was easy because it was all slabbed or a well worn route. Crossing Kinder is another matter.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: ninthace on 18:18:14, 23/08/20

Crossing Kinder in a mist is another matter.
I have been on Kinder in those conditions with a map and compass - not pleasant.  While I have not repeated the experience since with a gps, I have done similar in other areas.  For example, while solo hiking I have navigated to tors on Dartmoor where I have virtually bumped into the tor before I could see it.  I have followed the winding centerline of ridges in the Howgills and the Lakes in less thas 20ft visibility.  There was one occasion leaving the trig point on Ingleborough to find the right path off it, where I could not see more than a few feet, let alone the edges of the summit. Using a gps, one has confidence in both in your position and the direction of travel, even in near zero visibility.  With the best will in the world, the same cannot be said of map and compass navigation, especially across rough or boggy terrain requiring frequent detours from the intended track.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: WhitstableDave on 18:22:15, 23/08/20

It doesn't and I didn't imply that it did, I was replying to a post that stated navigating Kinder on the periphery was easy because it was all slabbed or a well worn route. Crossing Kinder is another matter.

Ah, I see. But surely no one was talking about "crossing Kinder" - the OP simply referred to being "on Kinder Scout" (and that was in the context of a discussion about paper maps vs GPS).

But yes, I fully accept that heading off across the untracked moors in the mist would be a different matter to staying on clear-cut paths.  :)
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: Greytop on 19:15:50, 23/08/20
I have been on Kinder in those conditions with a map and compass - not pleasant.  While I have not repeated the experience since with a gps, I have done similar in other areas.  For example, while solo hiking I have navigated to tors on Dartmoor where I have virtually bumped into the tor before I could see it.  I have followed the winding centerline of ridges in the Howgills and the Lakes in less thas 20ft visibility.  There was one occasion leaving the trig point on Ingleborough to find the right path off it, where I could not see more than a few feet, let alone the edges of the summit. Using a gps, one has confidence in both in your position and the direction of travel, even in near zero visibility.  With the best will in the world, the same cannot be said of map and compass navigation, especially across rough or boggy terrain requiring frequent detours from the intended track.


Very interesting and I have been in such situations myself, however I have never ever said or implied that a map and compass is superior to a GPS device in those situations. If you look at my post which you quoted you will see that I was merely commenting to a person (who stated that navigating Kinder Scout was easy) that it was a different matter crossing Kinder Scout, than walking the periphery on well defined and often slabbed paths.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 19:58:47, 23/08/20
That is a non sequitur.  As an experienced walker, I can read a map on a screen or paper to get myself out of trouble.  The advantage of a screen is I can relocate my position instantly.  An inexperienced walker can no more make sense of a map on a screen or paper.  At least on a screen they can see where they are so perhaps have a fighting chance. 

Where there have been problems. it transpires the problem is often an inappropriate choice of map such as GoogleMaps.  What we do not have data on is walkers who have not called out the MRTs because they were able to find there way off the hill using a mapping app but would have been incapable of doing it usin a paper map and compass - which is an altogether blacker art.
I am not saying that experienced walkers with GPS will get into trouble. However, the social media generation who know nothing except their phones are a different matter.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: ninthace on 20:04:00, 23/08/20
I am not saying that experienced walkers with GPS will get into trouble. However, the social media generation who know nothing except their phones are a different matter.
On that we are agreed, but that sort of idiocy has always existed and is not a reason to denegrate the tool as distinct from the user. 
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 20:16:58, 23/08/20
On that we are agreed, but that sort of idiocy has always existed and is not a reason to denegrate the tool as distinct from the user.
I am not denigrating the tool, just saying that it is more likely that experienced users will rely on the device too much and possibly get into trouble. I must admit that I have come across a few people in the British hills that were well on the way to trouble, well before the days of hand held GPS devices, including a pair who were ‘following’ a laminated outline of Snowdon and looking for the Pyg track were about to start down Crib Y Ddysgl having not notice the obelisk at Bwlch Glas. I don’t think they would have enjoyed descending Crib Goch against the flow on a busy day.
Title: Re: OS Maps and direction indicator
Post by: Eyelet on 22:49:58, 11/09/20
One other benefit of using a GPSr to navigate that has yet to be mentioned is that particularly in bad conditions, it is much quicker than using a map and compass to navigate. On pathless ground or snow-covered terrain in mist, with a howling wind blowing there is no contest between a GPSr and navigating by multiple short legs or leapfrogging with pace counting with a map and compass, it is much quicker and less error-prone. If you have pre-loaded the GPX track that you intend to follow, it's even more speedy to check where you are on the digital map, which direction you want to go and the next feature you should encounter.


I'm with Ninthace in much preferring the new technology on a dedicated outdoor GPSr, but I still occasionally practice with map and compass to stop my skills becoming too rusty. My Garmin then helps me work out what sort of positional errors I'm making e.g. timing over/under or pace counting short/long, drifting downslope on a traverse, etc.


Why not use both tools and become 'bilingual'?