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Regions - Trip reports, destination advice, recommended routes, etc. => South West England => Topic started by: thomasdevon on 07:30:30, 17/12/14

Title: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: thomasdevon on 07:30:30, 17/12/14
I'm working my way through Crossing's charming Guide to Dartmoor and am impressed by the research he carried out to pin down the names of points / features on the moor which are not marked on OS maps I have seen. Sometimes his descriptions are a little vague but I hope to upload locations and grid refs as I work through the book and confirm on the ground.

No real practical purpose for this - but it adds a nice bit of interest to a walk. Examples on my spotting list so far -
 
Bow Combe – ? Course of Steeperton Brook, between Steeperton Tor and Wild Tor.

Ockside Hill – Probably the flat-topped ridge NNW of Hangingstone Hill, about 613873.

The Eagle Rock – Southernmost outcrop of Steeperton Tor.

(has anyone carried out this project already?)
 
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: DevonDave on 11:42:30, 18/12/14
Here are a few more to add to your list -


Uncle Ab's House (SX 656639) located at the head of Petre's Pit Bottom.  I seem to recall reading that Uncle Ab looked after the horses which were used at the nearby mine.


Dinah's House (SX 685800) located at Golden Dagger Mine near Soussons Wood.


Keble Martin's Chapel (appropriately referenced SX 666666) located on the Western Wella Brook to the south-east of Huntingdon Warren.


The Rosalie Stone (SX 605640) located close to Broadall Head.


There are also a number of tors which are not named on the OS map.  I have been racking my brain trying to think of them, but two that come to mind are -


Wacka Tor (SX 664620) located between Brent Fore Hill and Hickley Plain.


Lowery Tor (SX 555696) located on the southern slopes of Peek Hill.


I am sure you are aware of all these, but if you need any further information let me know.  I am now in my late 60's and have been walking on Dartmoor since childhood, but I am still finding new features that I have not visited before.


Regarding Crossing's Guide, I think it is the best guide there is on Dartmoor.  I have used it all my life as a source of reference.  It is surprising that with the exception of new features such as forestry plantations and reservoirs, it is largely as accurate today as it was when it was written.
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: thomasdevon on 15:52:44, 18/12/14
A wonderful list DevonDave, thanks so much.
 
I can see I've got a lot of walking to do to bag all these "secret" places.
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: letmeoutofhere on 09:49:00, 21/12/14
This is a fab project, and very interesting. Reminds me I have a copy of Crossing's 'Hundred Years on Dartmoor' (reprint not original, sadly) which needs re-reading. Any chance you'll be publishing your findings somewhere? blog?
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: thomasdevon on 14:02:03, 21/12/14
Thanks lmooh - Yes, I intend to upload the data here and hopefully even put photos up for final confirmation - I'm thinking some of these features might be a bit subtle on the ground, hence why they lost their names over time.
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: thomasdevon on 07:09:52, 12/07/15
Ted Hughes memorial stone, secretly placed by helicopter 2001, discovered by BBC journalist Simon Hall 2003.
 
Upper Taw valley, SX 609865, 900m WNW of Hangingstone Hill.
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: DevonDave on 10:10:16, 12/07/15
Yes, I was aware that there is a memorial to Ted Hughes somewhere but I wasn't sure where it was.  I will have to look for that one some time.


There are a couple of other memorials that you may not be aware of.  One is the site of the 1942 Flying Fortress crash site at Tiger Marsh, near Lyd Head (SX 552884).


There is another memorial that I came across quite by chance earlier this year just outside the boundary of Fernworthy Forest.  This one was placed in memory of a Royal Marine called S.L. Perry who died at this spot whilst on a training exercise in 1992.  Unfortunately I didn't make a note of the grid reference, but from memory I would think it is approximately SX 645850.
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: thomasdevon on 11:05:04, 12/07/15
Nice one Dave.
 
I also suspect -
 Metheral Hole – Narrow course of Steeperton Brook, E of Steeperton Tor.
   The White Pits – Tin working remains in Metheral Hole.
   Small Brook Foot – Junction of Small Brook with Taw, N of Steeperton Tor.
   Brook Hill – Slight rise to NNW of Little Hound Tor, with remains of settlements and pounds.
   The Flock o’Sheep – Cluster of granite rocks near Small Brook, W of Brook Hill.
 
Also, does anyone know the name of the concreted ford on the Taw at SX619915? Its an important crossing point, surely not too modern to have a local name?
 
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: DevonDave on 13:11:48, 12/07/15
I am not aware of any of the names in your list, although I must admit I do not know the north moor as well as the south.  Is the concreted ford used by the military?  If so it could be relatively recent in which case it may not have a name.
 
I did recently come across another tor to add to your list.  It is called Hurston Castle and is located north of Bennett's Cross at SX683834 but is not marked on the OS map.  There was an article about it in the Spring edition of Dartmoor Magazine. The article also mentions that the nearby North Walla Brook has been incorrectly named on the map and is in fact the Bovey River, although sometimes called Hurston Water.  This was pointed out by Crossing in his Guide.


Incidentally, if you do not already do so, Dartmoor Magazine is well worth subscribing to.  I have been getting it for quite a number of years and find it full of interesting facts about the Moor, together with details of walks.
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: thomasdevon on 17:09:03, 12/07/15
Recently confirmed stone circle, Sittaford. No grid ref for this yet but 300m SW of Sittaford Tor.
 
A little bit of media coverage -
http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=35327 (http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=35327)
http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/stone-circle-century-discovered-high-Dartmoor/story-26474113-detail/story.html (http://www.westernmorningnews.co.uk/stone-circle-century-discovered-high-Dartmoor/story-26474113-detail/story.html)
 
Fascinating reading about the sacred arc of circles:
http://www.dartmoorwalks.org.uk/resource/circlemap.php (http://www.dartmoorwalks.org.uk/resource/circlemap.php)
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: DevonDave on 17:15:45, 12/07/15
Yes, I was there back in April when it had been marked out with pegs.  I didn't realise at the time that it was a stone circle because all the stones were lying down and partially covered with grass.
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: thomasdevon on 08:18:13, 13/07/15
Cheers Dave. I don't think the ford on the Taw is military, its outside the range area and the trail doesn't lead towards any OPs etc. It might have been concreted for vehicles of the old water board - they have installations scattered across Taw Marsh. Maybe it really does have no name but as its on one of the few good routes from east to west in the north moor it must have a history.
 
Thanks for your other tips too. Getting a nice list together here now.
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: thomasdevon on 08:41:06, 13/07/15
Mention of Marine Perry's memorial stone here -
http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM35Y7_Marines_Memorial_Perry_Memorial_Fernworthy (http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM35Y7_Marines_Memorial_Perry_Memorial_Fernworthy)
and this web page has more -
http://www.dartmoorcam.co.uk/CAM/previouswalks/2008-5-8_Batworthy-Memorial/Batworthy2.htm (http://www.dartmoorcam.co.uk/CAM/previouswalks/2008-5-8_Batworthy-Memorial/Batworthy2.htm)
also describing the Harry Starkey memorial stone in the area just N.
 
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: thomasdevon on 08:54:16, 13/07/15
I did recently come across another tor to add to your list.  It is called Hurston Castle and is located north of Bennett's Cross at SX683834 but is not marked on the OS map.  There was an article about it in the Spring edition of Dartmoor Magazine. The article also mentions that the nearby North Walla Brook has been incorrectly named on the map and is in fact the Bovey River, although sometimes called Hurston Water.  This was pointed out by Crossing in his Guide.

Thanks Dave. I see where this tor should be but can't spot it on Google Earth. I'll have to go and have a look on the ground. Long tiome since I was in that area so not a bad idea anyway.
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: thomasdevon on 09:03:56, 13/07/15
Makes sense about the Bovey River name too. The actual Walla Brook is of course away to the NW so this brook to the SE would logically be called the East Walla Brook or South Walla Brook if anything. But its nowhere near Wild Tor, maybe Wild and Walla share derivation - the Walla rises from Wild Tor Ridge and I'm sure I remember that Wild here is pronounced as in build - so makes no sense to call a brook in Hurston by this name.
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: DevonDave on 09:22:44, 13/07/15
The name "Walla" either comes from the Celtic word "Huella", which means workings associated with tin streaming, or possibly from the Anglo Saxon word "Wielle", which means a spring.  There are tin workings beside the stream referred to as North Walla Brook, so perhaps Crossing was wrong and this is why it was so named.

Thanks for the link to Marine Perry's memorial.
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: thomasdevon on 16:55:16, 10/07/17
Oops! Two years since I did anything on this thread. Can't believe its been so long. Nor that I have managed to bag so few of the unmapped locations on Dartmoor in that time. (though I had a good 9 months away form hiking as I had taken a challenging and under-paid full-time job: I am now retired!)


Going to start again - I plan to put up a description of each one, and I'll leave it up to members to actually do the bagging - I'm never going to make it at this rate! Good luck all.
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: DevonDave on 17:15:59, 10/07/17
Welcome back Thomas, I was wondering where you'd got to!  :)
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: Welsh Rambler on 20:17:43, 12/07/17
Oops! Two years since I did anything on this thread. Can't believe its been so long. Nor that I have managed to bag so few of the unmapped locations on Dartmoor in that time. (though I had a good 9 months away form hiking as I had taken a challenging and under-paid full-time job: I am now retired!)


Going to start again - I plan to put up a description of each one, and I'll leave it up to members to actually do the bagging - I'm never going to make it at this rate! Good luck all.
Shall look forward to this Thomas. Dartmoor seems full of mystery and intrigue and I am enjoying exploring the area. We have a local friend who was born in Widecombe 90 years ago and she is a mine of information.
Regards Keith
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: thomasdevon on 20:49:38, 12/07/17
Cheers Dave and Keith.


One thing that will never be marked on any OS map no matter how good is where did the biggest shells ever fired onto Dartmoor go?
These were supposed to have been fired from a massive ex-Royal Navy gun, removed from a de-commissioned monitor after WWI, mounted on a railway wagon and fired several times into the north moor.


Where did they go? Where were they aiming at?


I have read about this somewhere, I'll see if I can find the source again. Supposed to have been one of the two biggest guns ever purchased by the RN so should have left some seriously big craters.


Back later with this.
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: thomasdevon on 20:59:29, 12/07/17

Found this again pretty much immediately -

"An 18 inch calibre railway gun was brought to Devon and fired onto Dartmoor from Halwill Junction and North Tawton. Whether this was done for training, to boost morale or to confuse German air reconnaissance is not known. Locals recall the deafening sound of it firing and the sound like a dustbin rumbling as the shell passed overhead. The gun was constructed from a barrel removed from HMS Furious when she was converted into an aircraft carrier in 1917 and remounted onto a railway flat by Elswick Ordnance Company."
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/33309/armed_forces_ondartmoor_brief_history.pdf


However, Wikipedia shows HMS Furious was launched on 18 August 1916 with two single barrel turrets with an 18-inch gun (BL, Mk1) each. The forward turret was removed prior to launch and the rear turret in November 1917, both to facilitate aircraft hangar and flight deck construction. The guns were assigned to monitors HMS General Wolfe and Lord Clive.  

 
Research continues.......  





Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: thomasdevon on 09:49:52, 13/07/17
No progress yet in verifying the MoD's account of 18" naval gun firing onto Dartmoor but a couple of observations can be made that make this maybe a little more likely to be a myth.


Firstly, there was certainly a station at North Tawton, about 1 mile south of the village. The old station building and the Railway Inn remain. There were sidings there, though they (and the main line) run east-west, whereas the firing direction would have been a little west of south. The guns weighed 190 tons, so is it really likely one could have been mounted on a railway wagon that was able to traverse through 90 degrees and that wagon and mount would withstand the shock of firing?


Secondly, although the Okehampton range as we know it today would be well within the gun's range (its 8.5 miles for North Tawton station to Okement Hill, and these guns were used in action in WWI at over 20 miles), the first 4.5 miles is over open farmland plus the villages of Sticklepath, South Tawton, South Zeal and Belstone. The results of a mis-shoot would potentially have been catastrophic.


As for Halwill Junction, this is further out, at 12.5 miles from Okement Hill. Two-thirds of the line lies over  farms and villages, not the moor or the range. The railway at this point is aligned on heading 162 Degrees, so not as far adrift as at North Tawton, but a shot along this direct line would miss the moor altogether. Plus, this is the main line, there are no sidings here I can spot on the old OS maps.


One thing seems clear. The two 18" guns that were installed on Furious in WWI, and later used in action in 1918 when installed on two monitors, cannot be our gun, as these were both scrapped in 1933. Gun 3 was used at Silloth for cordite proofing tests in 1920 and afterwards converted to a 16" (40.6 cm) design between 1921 and 1924 for use as a prototype for the 16"/45 (40.6 cm) Mark I guns destined for the Nelson class. It was then used for various trials until 1942 when it was sent to Woolwich where it remained until scrapped in 1947. So Gun 3 is the only candidate and was certainly used for firing trials of various sorts in this vintage. But would the War Dept really have moved all of its 190 tons to Dartmoor in the hard-pressed days of 1940-41 for tests that could presumably have been done where it was?  

 
So far, I say this is a myth despite what the Mod say.  
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: DevonDave on 10:11:23, 13/07/17
This is an interesting topic Thomas and is something I had not heard of before.  I don't recall reading about this in any books on Dartmoor.
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: DevonDave on 10:43:05, 13/07/17
I keep meaning to have a look at the old rifle range located just to the south of Rippon Tor, which I have never been to.  From photographs that I have seen it appears to be quite a substantial structure.  It is briefly mentioned in the government document that you referred to above.
More details here:-


https://www.28dayslater.co.uk/rippon-tor-rifle-range-dartmoor-february-2014.t90963
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: thomasdevon on 13:50:59, 13/07/17
Cheers Dave.


forgot to mention too that although the MoD say an 18" gun was brought in to shoot onto the moor (and its clear only 3 were ever built in the UK, and 2 had been scrapped in 1933), the surviving third gun had been lined down to 16" between 1921 and 1924 so it could be used as    a prototype for the 16"/45 (40.6 cm) Mark I guns destined for the Nelson class battleships.  

 
So by 1934 at the latest, there were no 18" guns in British service.  

 
Unless someone knows different.......  



Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: thomasdevon on 14:35:07, 13/07/17
Still on the trail of the third gun.....


Information on The Great War Forum suggests that a 14" railway gun mounting from WWI was used in 1940 during WWII to carry an available 18" gun (no definite source for such a gun unfortunately), re-named the BL 18 inch Railway Howitzer Mk I. It seems possible this was our third gun even though the calibre is wrong. The tale on the forum says the up-gunned gun platform HMG Boche Buster was based in the Bourne Park Tunnel on the Bishopsbourne railway in Kent's Elham Valley.
HMG Boche Buster remained at Bishopsbourne until declared obsolete in 1945, when it was moved to the Army's Shoeburyness Experimental Establishment.
The site carries two photos, allegedly of the 18" railway gun or howitzer. the first is from 12 December 1940, showing the gun platform about to be taken off to Kent (no mention of via Dartmoor). The second is apparently from later in WWII, showing the same gun/howitzer arrived from Kent in the Halwill Junction sidings intended for shooting into Dartmoor, the aim being to evaluate the gun for possible use by the Allied invasion forces in France, which landed of course on 6 June 1944.
The photo does not look like Halwill Junction as it is today but I would need to visit to check properly. In any case, this account extends the story that Britain had an 18" gun in WWII, which other accounts say it didn't, the third 18" having been reduced to 16". We also now have a second date for the Dartmoor firing, 1944, as well as the MoD's suggestion of 1940/41. The gun's travels are also described as either a) from Catterick to Kent to Shoeburyness, then later as b) from Catterick to Kent to Halwill Junction, back to Kent, and then to Shoeburyness.
Like the third gun, maybe I am going round in circles....
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: thomasdevon on 16:32:52, 11/12/19
Cheers Dave. I don't think the ford on the Taw is military, its outside the range area and the trail doesn't lead towards any OPs etc. It might have been concreted for vehicles of the old water board - they have installations scattered across Taw Marsh. Maybe it really does have no name but as its on one of the few good routes from east to west in the north moor it must have a history.
 
Thanks for your other tips too. Getting a nice list together here now.




Further delving into Crossings suggests this well known ford on the horse-shoe meander in the Taw is at "Ducky Pool", grid 619915. The current OS map also omits another ford on this same river bend, slightly north of the better defined concrete ford.


Incidentally, there's a clear view south onto Taw Marsh from the track from Birchy Lake. The impression is overwhelmingly clear that Taw Marsh was indeed previously a lake. In fact, it even somewhat resembles a cwm. I'm not saying it is a cwm - its diameter is too great and the surrounding hills are too low altitude but there is an impression.  
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: BuzyG on 21:14:05, 09/03/20
No progress yet in verifying the MoD's account of 18" naval gun firing onto Dartmoor but a couple of observations can be made that make this maybe a little more likely to be a myth.


Firstly, there was certainly a station at North Tawton, about 1 mile south of the village. The old station building and the Railway Inn remain. There were sidings there, though they (and the main line) run east-west, whereas the firing direction would have been a little west of south. The guns weighed 190 tons, so is it really likely one could have been mounted on a railway wagon that was able to traverse through 90 degrees and that wagon and mount would withstand the shock of firing?


Secondly, although the Okehampton range as we know it today would be well within the gun's range (its 8.5 miles for North Tawton station to Okement Hill, and these guns were used in action in WWI at over 20 miles), the first 4.5 miles is over open farmland plus the villages of Sticklepath, South Tawton, South Zeal and Belstone. The results of a mis-shoot would potentially have been catastrophic.


As for Halwill Junction, this is further out, at 12.5 miles from Okement Hill. Two-thirds of the line lies over  farms and villages, not the moor or the range. The railway at this point is aligned on heading 162 Degrees, so not as far adrift as at North Tawton, but a shot along this direct line would miss the moor altogether. Plus, this is the main line, there are no sidings here I can spot on the old OS maps.


One thing seems clear. The two 18" guns that were installed on Furious in WWI, and later used in action in 1918 when installed on two monitors, cannot be our gun, as these were both scrapped in 1933. Gun 3 was used at Silloth for cordite proofing tests in 1920 and afterwards converted to a 16" (40.6 cm) design between 1921 and 1924 for use as a prototype for the 16"/45 (40.6 cm) Mark I guns destined for the Nelson class. It was then used for various trials until 1942 when it was sent to Woolwich where it remained until scrapped in 1947. So Gun 3 is the only candidate and was certainly used for firing trials of various sorts in this vintage. But would the War Dept really have moved all of its 190 tons to Dartmoor in the hard-pressed days of 1940-41 for tests that could presumably have been done where it was?

 
So far, I say this is a myth despite what the Mod say.


You really are kidding.  Fire an WW1 18 inch Naval gun with 1500+ kg round, from a railway carriage no problem. Turn it through 90 deg and try.  ;D  Not a hope without lots of legs to stop it blowing it's self over. ;)


Enjoyed reading up on the gun though.  I have worked with and around naval guns my entire working life. One of my first loves was an Air fix model of HMS Nelson I built at junior school. I didn't know that it had tested re-sleeved18 inch guns though. So thanks for posting. Every days a learning day. :)
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: thomasdevon on 18:47:13, 26/09/20
I really haven't made a lot of progress with this thread in recent times, partly because I haven't had do much time to get up on the moors.


Anyway, I recently discovered a website which is doing the job so much better than I could - dartefacts.co.uk. They seem to have the intention of listing and mapping every artefact, natural or man-made, on the entire moor. So it includes the tors, hills and rivers, but also the OP's, bridges, stone circles, cists etc. etc., right down to individual abandoned unfinished millstones.


A great resource for plotting interesting routes on Dartmoor.
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: thomasdevon on 10:52:37, 20/10/20
Had an invigorating trek yesterday on the north moor, but ran into some map issues after leaving Hound Tor (there are two of course - I'm referring to the Hound Tor just E of Steeperton).


I wanted to explore mapped points generally SE, destination Scorhill Stone Circle and so headed S towards Watern Tor. The intention was about half-way to Watern to pick up the trail coming NE from Hangingstone Hill and follow that further NE to Gartaven Ford and cross the Gallaven Brook there.


Two issues arose quickly - firstly I could not find the Hangingstone trail and even hunted as far S as the Walla Brook and failed to find the junction. Even from an elevation there was no sign of a trail heading NE. Has anyone ever used this trail who can confirm its there???


Secondly, when I eventually got to Gartaven Ford, its seems pretty likely this is misnamed on the OS maps. There is a ford but its a crossing the Gallaven Brook which issues from Galaven Mire. Crossing's Dartmoor refers to it as "Gallaven Ford". Am I right does anyone know?


Also, at Galaven / Gartaven / Gallaven Ford there is what looks like a pretty substantial dam across the brook. Yet Crossing doesn't mention this. Does he describe it elsewhere maybe?


He does say that between Hound Tor and Kennon Hill there are mine workings including Ruelake Pit, London Pit and Proctor's Gully. Ruelake Pit is marked on the OS, but in blue text, as a water feature. Surely this is incorrect? The brook, the Rue Lake brook is a water feature but is not named on the OS, though I did find its course and it does look to have been mined. I also found to the E of the Rue Lake a deep dry gulley which must have been caused by mining: the track E from Hound Tor directly to Kennon Hill skirts the blind head of this feature. Can anyone clear up which of these features exist and their names? I start to suspect Crossing has published too many names here to match what's on the ground.
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: ninthace on 11:19:58, 20/10/20
I keep mea  ning to have a look at the old rifle range located just to the south of Rippon Tor, which I have never been to.  From photographs that I have seen it appears to be quite a substantial structure.  It is briefly mentioned in the government document that you referred to above.
More details here:-


https://www.28dayslater.co.uk/rippon-tor-rifle-range-dartmoor-february-2014.t90963
Not much to see.  Fairly standard range much like many others - firing butts and a set of bullet catchers still standing.   I did contrive a circular walk to take it in but found the map was a bit misleading which lead to a short section of improvisation (or to put it another way - the hoped for path I noticed was missing at the planning stage was actually missing) 

Vide:  https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/route/2375971/180808-Rippon-Tor-Circular
The improvistion can be seen on the trace at SX 76162 75312, just S of Bagtor Cottages
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: ninthace on 11:48:38, 20/10/20

So far, I say this is a myth despite what the Mod say.
Did you find this in your researches?
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:BL_18_inch_Howitzer_Halwill_Junction_WWII.jpg
If you look at the old plans of Halwill Junction (internet image search will turn them up), there were several sidings and curved sections of track that would have facilitated aiming (if they point in the right direction - I haven't checked).
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: thomasdevon on 13:24:50, 20/10/20
Did you find this in your researches?
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:BL_18_inch_Howitzer_Halwill_Junction_WWII.jpg (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:BL_18_inch_Howitzer_Halwill_Junction_WWII.jpg)
If you look at the old plans of Halwill Junction (internet image search will turn them up), there were several sidings and curved sections of track that would have facilitated aiming (if they point in the right direction - I haven't checked).






Yes, I believe this is the photo I was referring to earlier. Its is said to be at Halwill Junction but that remains unverified. One thing I can add is that S of Halwill Google Earth shows a curving vegetation line which is probably the abandoned line of the old railway. The direction of the "line" rotates anti-clockwise round the curve through about 90 degrees from SSE right the way round to ENE. This means that a gun which could only be fired along its railway carriage, having no or very limited traverse, could have been directed on at any point on the north moor. I suppose also that if you're going to fire a gun of very large calibre you would perhaps take it out of the centre of a village to do so - these things can go wrong in a big way.... Also perhaps the muzzle blast on firing might well have been sufficient to break windows in the immediate vicinity.







Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: ninthace on 14:03:22, 20/10/20





Yes, I believe this is the photo I was referring to earlier. Its is said to be at Halwill Junction but that remains unverified. One thing I can add is that S of Halwill Google Earth shows a curving vegetation line which is probably the abandoned line of the old railway. The direction of the "line" rotates anti-clockwise round the curve through about 90 degrees from SSE right the way round to ENE. This means that a gun which could only be fired along its railway carriage, having no or very limited traverse, could have been directed on at any point on the north moor. I suppose also that if you're going to fire a gun of very large calibre you would perhaps take it out of the centre of a village to do so - these things can go wrong in a big way.... Also perhaps the muzzle blast on firing might well have been sufficient to break windows in the immediate vicinity.
It is a shame we cannot see more of the house in the background - it has a passing resemblance to the Junction Hotel but not remotely conclusive.
Edit to add:  I came across this  http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/railway_howitzer_at_halwill/index.shtml  which claims the building in the background is the Junction Hotel and adds some more information.
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: thomasdevon on 14:49:41, 20/10/20
It is a shame we cannot see more of the house in the background - it has a passing resemblance to the Junction Hotel but not remotely conclusive.
Edit to add:  I came across this  http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/railway_howitzer_at_halwill/index.shtml (http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/railway_howitzer_at_halwill/index.shtml)  which claims the building in the background is the Junction Hotel and adds some more information.




Excellent find, thanks.


Of course, the best evidence here would be, as they say, a smoking gun........
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: thomasdevon on 09:59:33, 26/10/20
An unexpectedly good information source on archaeological locations.


Found that Historic England have an easy to use map at https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/map-search?clearresults=true. Just zoom in on the area of interest and click on the site marked to bring up details. These can be surprisingly detailed re the objects in question and their precise location etc. but they also put up some really good historical context which explains why the object(s) have been listed.
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: BuzyG on 13:02:02, 09/11/20
Had an invigorating trek yesterday on the north moor, but ran into some map issues after leaving Hound Tor (there are two of course - I'm referring to the Hound Tor just E of Steeperton).


I wanted to explore mapped points generally SE, destination Scorhill Stone Circle and so headed S towards Watern Tor. The intention was about half-way to Watern to pick up the trail coming NE from Hangingstone Hill and follow that further NE to Gartaven Ford and cross the Gallaven Brook there.


Two issues arose quickly - firstly I could not find the Hangingstone trail and even hunted as far S as the Walla Brook and failed to find the junction. Even from an elevation there was no sign of a trail heading NE. Has anyone ever used this trail who can confirm its there???


Secondly, when I eventually got to Gartaven Ford, its seems pretty likely this is misnamed on the OS maps. There is a ford but its a crossing the Gallaven Brook which issues from Galaven Mire. Crossing's Dartmoor refers to it as "Gallaven Ford". Am I right does anyone know?


Also, at Galaven / Gartaven / Gallaven Ford there is what looks like a pretty substantial dam across the brook. Yet Crossing doesn't mention this. Does he describe it elsewhere maybe?


He does say that between Hound Tor and Kennon Hill there are mine workings including Ruelake Pit, London Pit and Proctor's Gully. Ruelake Pit is marked on the OS, but in blue text, as a water feature. Surely this is incorrect? The brook, the Rue Lake brook is a water feature but is not named on the OS, though I did find its course and it does look to have been mined. I also found to the E of the Rue Lake a deep dry gulley which must have been caused by mining: the track E from Hound Tor directly to Kennon Hill skirts the blind head of this feature. Can anyone clear up which of these features exist and their names? I start to suspect Crossing has published too many names here to match what's on the ground.


I have walked Hangingstone Hill to Watern tor this year.  There is a good easy to follow, well trodden trail between the two. It comes down from Hangingstone towards Wild tor, it then breaks off right due east and crosses Walla brook, before splitting into smaller trails up to the various tor out crops.


As for names, they are not really so important.  They change with the generations. Beg ben's home was St Stephens tower. Currently the Elizabeth Tower.  No doubt some one will rename it gain before it falls down.  What matters to each of us may be different too.  I love coming across oddments and artifices on the moor and I also love tor bagging.  But it's more about having been in touch with that artefact or piece of the moor than the name.  The history of what went before should be recorded though and I guess naming things is all part of that, as well as being a political tool to demonstrate the position and power of what ever the name was derived from.
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: ninthace on 13:35:59, 09/11/20
Here is a trace from one if my trips that includes the route Buzy is talking about
https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/route/1909489/170720-Hangingstone (https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/route/1909489/170720-Hangingstone)
And here is one using Gartaven Ford
https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/route/2127620/180522-Gidleigh (https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/route/2127620/180522-Gidleigh)

And this might be the route you were looking for
https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/route/2309578/180718-Shilstone-Tor-Hound-Tor-Cosdon-Hill (https://osmaps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/route/2309578/180718-Shilstone-Tor-Hound-Tor-Cosdon-Hill)
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: Jac on 14:24:56, 09/11/20
As for names, they are not really so important.  They change with the generations. Beg ben's home was St Stephens tower. Currently the Elizabeth Tower.  No doubt some one will rename it gain before it falls down.  What matters to each of us may be different too.  I love coming across oddments and artifices on the moor and I also love tor bagging.  But it's more about having been in touch with that artefact or piece of the moor than the name.  The history of what went before should be recorded though and I guess naming things is all part of that, as well as being a political tool to demonstrate the position and power of what ever the name was derived from.

' Rose by another name .....etc' balanced by 'Naming of Parts'

Names allow us to communicate more accurately. It wasn't until I moved to Devon and acquired farming friends that I realised all fields had names. So obvious really but I'd never needed to refer to a particular field before.
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: thomasdevon on 17:25:42, 09/11/20

I have walked Hangingstone Hill to Watern tor this year.  There is a good easy to follow, well trodden trail between the two. It comes down from Hangingstone towards Wild tor, it then breaks off right due east and crosses Walla brook, before splitting into smaller trails up to the various tor out crops.


As for names, they are not really so important.  They change with the generations. Beg ben's home was St Stephens tower. Currently the Elizabeth Tower.  No doubt some one will rename it gain before it falls down.  What matters to each of us may be different too.  I love coming across oddments and artifices on the moor and I also love tor bagging.  But it's more about having been in touch with that artefact or piece of the moor than the name.  The history of what went before should be recorded though and I guess naming things is all part of that, as well as being a political tool to demonstrate the position and power of what ever the name was derived from.




I remember a few years back going the other way on this trail - Watern to Hangingstone. I do remember difficulties crossing the Walla Brook valley where it seems to have been channelled and there's fast deep water in straight deep channels - not nice - and I also got into some nasty bog on the same leg I think. Think it would be best to make a little detour next time. I'm good at detours........
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: lostme1 on 08:51:16, 10/11/20
' Rose by another name .....etc' balanced by 'Naming of Parts'

Names allow us to communicate more accurately. It wasn't until I moved to Devon and acquired farming friends that I realised all fields had names. So obvious really but I'd never needed to refer to a particular field before.

My house was built in 1949 on agricultural land and the field was known as All Stone Field by the farmer. Every time I do some gardening I am reminded of the name. I remove stones from a bed only to find more come to the surface. The farmer knew what he was talking about.
Title: Re: Points on Dartmoor not marked on OS maps
Post by: ninthace on 09:44:57, 10/11/20
There is a cottage in a dank dip dear us that has an upmarket name since it was sold and done up but is still referred to by locals as Forlorn Hope.  The estate agent must have done a good job on that one.