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Main Boards => Gear => Topic started by: Steve922 on 09:45:58, 21/06/18

Title: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: Steve922 on 09:45:58, 21/06/18
Inflatable or Self inflating or closed cell ?
I recently bought a closed cell roll-up sleeping mat from (£5.99 at Lidl now). Its about half the weight but over twice the packed size of my 3/4 Thermarest 'self-infater'.
     I'd be vert interested if people's opinions about these two type of mat.
     There's also the NeoAir XLite which specs really nice but oh! the cost!
https://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/p/therm-a-rest-neoair-xlite-sleeping-mat-regular-D2424185.html?colour=151

And then there's this one on offer at the moment. I'm very tempted here. Opinions would be very much appreciated...
http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/sea-to-summit-ultralight-mat-p389019

Arrrgghhhhh - so much to think about. Are we spoilt for choices?   :-)
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: richardh1905 on 10:25:48, 21/06/18

I've got an ancient closed cell Karrimat from the 1980s; sawn off now as I damaged one end of it. Weight only 236g. Still perfectly adequate for me - I used it wild camping up in the Cairngorms last weekend.


I'm contemplating cutting a bit more off, to save a bit more weight - you don't really need the full length.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: richardh1905 on 10:44:35, 21/06/18


208g now that I have just shortened it to 120cm. This is still plenty to go under my torso and thighs.


Why don't you give it a try?
A shortened mat takes up less space, as well as being lighter. Even if you find that you don't like a short mat, you've only lost £5.99.


p.s. - don't forget to round off the corners after you have made the cut. Not for the small weight saving but so that they don't snag when you are stuffing the mat into your backpack.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: gunwharfman on 12:18:09, 21/06/18
I sleep on my side, closed cell for me terrible idea. After a hards days hiking I want real sleeping comfort so I like self inflators, although I now use a Neo air which has to be inflated.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: Steve922 on 12:30:06, 21/06/18
The NeoAir worth the money?  Also, any opinions on the Sea to Summit infalable - looks a lot like the NeoAir  Also includes the inflator/stuff sack thing. I wonder if that can be used a a pillow too?

http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/sea-to-summit-ultralight-mat-p389019
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: gunwharfman on 12:52:09, 21/06/18
For me it is even though it is a bit expensive. It rolls up very small and very lightweight compared to my other matress and again, for me is also comfortable. I do'nt use it in my Bivi, I use my short Prolite for this. I've used the NeoAir for well over two years and no leaks at all. It can be a bit noisy as you turn over but I've more or less solved this, I use a Thermarest fitted sheet. I use the inflator stuffsack to blow it up, takes about 4-5 puffs to do it. The bag is useful as well, can be used as a pillow, I stuff my clothing in it and then place my Sea to Summit blow up pillow on top. I hate getting a stiff neck in the night.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: NeilC on 14:48:27, 21/06/18
I've not heard many people with Neoairs complaining about them but loads raving about them so they must be doing something right.


I used to be able to handle a CCF pad but not since my 20s. If I tried to sleep on one now I wouldn't sleep a wink and I'd be crippled the next day. I wish I could because they're cheap, warm and light, albeit annoyingly bulky.


So I have an Exped UL which I find good. It's heavier than I'd like but then I did go for extra large one which is massive. I can treat it like a bed and turn all I like. It was expensive but it's literally the most important bit of kit I have in that it makes backpacking possible at all for me given my back and neck problems.


It depends what you need. If you can get away with CCF then why not. If you can't then Thermarest and Exped make great products.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: Steve922 on 15:15:34, 21/06/18
ANyone experienced the sea-to-summit UL mat above? Or is this a new product? It does look relatively good value
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: NeilC on 15:33:34, 21/06/18
ANyone experienced the sea-to-summit UL mat above? Or is this a new product? It does look relatively good value


Never tried one but it's very light. Does have a low R value so very little insulation so probably would need topping with something in colder months. Personally I think it's a mistake to get a low R air mat unless it's for summer use only.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: richardh1905 on 07:20:32, 22/06/18

It depends what you need. If you can get away with CCF then why not. If you can't then Thermarest and Exped make great products.


I suppose it all boils down to this. I often sleep on a SIM when I am 'boot of the car' camping, and always my trusty Karrimat when wild camping, and I can't say that I notice much of a difference in the amount of sleep that I get.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: gunwharfman on 11:06:55, 22/06/18
I've ended up in the last few years with three Thermorest mattresses, a short Prolight for my Bivi, a Neo Air for my tent and a six foot long and thicker cheaper self inflating mattress when I sleep in my car, or when guests stay. I get up so early I like to sleep in our conservatory so I don't disturb anybody in the morning.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: Nomad32 on 23:03:40, 22/06/18
I love my neo air mat. Me and my lady have two of them for or little tent and they fit together in there perfect. It's like having a double bed in the back country. They don't make much noise and keep you off the ground so no problem with heat loss from the dirt below. Fully recommend one. And it packs down to not a lot
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: marmottungsten on 14:24:35, 23/06/18
I've got an ancient closed cell Karrimat from the 1980s; sawn off now as I damaged one end of it. Weight only 236g. Still perfectly adequate for me - I used it wild camping up in the Cairngorms last weekend.


I'm contemplating cutting a bit more off, to save a bit more weight - you don't really need the full length.


Why bother when you can have a much more comfortable, full-length, inflatable sleeping mat, that packs down to the size of a coke can, and only weighs 241g, including a micro pump!...The Klymit Intertia X-Frame.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: marmottungsten on 14:32:21, 23/06/18
Inflatable or Self inflating or closed cell ?
I recently bought a closed cell roll-up sleeping mat from (£5.99 at Lidl now). Its about half the weight but over twice the packed size of my 3/4 Thermarest 'self-infater'.
     I'd be vert interested if people's opinions about these two type of mat.
     There's also the NeoAir XLite which specs really nice but oh! the cost!
https://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/p/therm-a-rest-neoair-xlite-sleeping-mat-regular-D2424185.html?colour=151 (https://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/p/therm-a-rest-neoair-xlite-sleeping-mat-regular-D2424185.html?colour=151)

And then there's this one on offer at the moment. I'm very tempted here. Opinions would be very much appreciated...
http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/sea-to-summit-ultralight-mat-p389019 (http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/sea-to-summit-ultralight-mat-p389019)

Arrrgghhhhh - so much to think about. Are we spoilt for choices?   :-)


No need to get brain ache looking for the perfect sleeping mat...Just get a Klymit Intertia X-Frame and jobs a good-un!.  It's an inexpensive, full-length, ultralight (just 241g...In fact it's actually the lightest full-length inflatable sleeping mat in the the world!) inflatable sleeping mat that packs down to the size of coke can. There is also a heavy-duty version, designed for military use, called the Klymit Intertia X-Frame Recon, which comes in a much lower visibilty "Coyote-Sand" colour...It costs a bit more and weighs about 50g more but still packs down to about the same size as the normal version...It's greater durabilty makes it worth the extra cost IMO. Oh, and it's virtually silent when you move around on it, unlike some, well known sleeping mats!  O0
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: gunwharfman on 14:39:35, 23/06/18
With the Klymit mat, how do you stop being cold at night? With all those gaps does it keep you warm like for example my Thermarest does? And with so many more seams, do you have a greater chance of leaks and punctures than with a traditional mat?
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: marmottungsten on 16:15:58, 23/06/18
With the Klymit mat, how do you stop being cold at night? With all those gaps does it keep you warm like for example my Thermarest does?


It's appearance is deceiving...Those gaps actually keep you warmer!  Unlike other sleeping mats, the X-Frame is designed to go inside your sleeping bag, not under it and this has two major benefits over a traditional sleeping mat: 1)  The "loft pockets", as the gaps in the X-Frame are correctly called, are areas where the down in your sleeping bag is not compressed by your weight...When down in your sleeping bag is compressed it's insulation properties are greatly reduced, allowing body heat to escape from your sleeping bag far more easily. 
On a traditional sleeping mat, nearly all of the down in the bottom of your sleeping bag is compressed by your own body weight pressing down on it, allowing your body heat to easily escape downwards to the cold sleeping mat below, leaving you feeling much colder than you would expect, even with a thicker sleeping bag. 
However, the loft pockets in X-Frame allow the down in those areas to "loft up" or stay uncompressed, therefore giving much better insulation below you, and consequently you stay much warmer than you would expect.
2)  When a sleeping mat is under your sleeping bag any body heat that reaches it will be sucked away by the cold ground below it, and a cold mat underneath you can more easily suck away the body heat you are radiating away below you due to the compressed down, making you feel even colder.
But because the X-Frame is inside your sleeping bag, it will gradually reach an optimum temperature and stay there due to the insulation all around it, keeping you much warmer throughout the night. 

Quote from: gunwharfman
and with so many more seams, do you have a greater chance of leaks and punctures than with a traditional mat?

Perhaps, but I have only heard one issue like that in the reviews I have read for the X-Frame and the owner said he returned it to Klymit and Klymit send him a new one free of charge, after which he had no further issues. 
Even if you do get a leak, it comes with a repair kit so it can be repaired out in the field, like any other inflatable sleeping mat.
The material used to make the X-Frame is much thicker than traditional ultralight inflatable mats (45D on top and 75D below).  The Recon version is even stronger (75D top and bottom).  Compare that to the material used to make a Neoair Xlite Sleeping mat for instance (only 30D material on the top and bottom), and you can see that the X-Frame is much tougher than it looks.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: richardh1905 on 16:23:08, 23/06/18


Why bother when you can have a much more comfortable, full-length, inflatable sleeping mat, that packs down to the size of a coke can, and only weighs 241g, including a micro pump!...The Klymit Intertia X-Frame.


I'll counter that with a question of my own - why bother spending £60 when I am perfectly happy with my ancient sawn off karrimat that weighs only 208g?  :)
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: NeilC on 16:27:41, 23/06/18
I tried one and found it horribly uncomfortable. But then I'm very picky about beds and I move a lot in my sleep


It must be nice to be able to use these things and be comfy. I'm envious of those who can sleep half length bits of CCF and use their boots as a pillow and all that.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: marmottungsten on 16:42:44, 23/06/18
I tried one and found it horribly uncomfortable. But then I'm very picky about beds and I move a lot in my sleep


It must be nice to be able to use these things and be comfy. I'm envious of those who can sleep half length bits of CCF and use their boots as a pillow and all that.


If you think the comfortable X-Frame is uncomfortable then you certainly wouldn't want to try using a half length mat, and boots for a pillow!...You shouldn't be envious of people using sawn off mats, you should pity them, for they know not what they are missing!  :D
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: Owen on 16:43:55, 23/06/18
All very well having your mat inside your bag until you roll over. According to my ex, I'm the worlds most annoying fidgety sleeper, so that system wouldn't work for me.
I use a short neo air lite for three season use. It's OK but if your groundsheet is silicon/nylon both your mat and your groundsheet have a very slidey finish. Means your mat is constantly shooting out from under you, dobs of silicon glue on both surfaces is the answer.
For camping on snow/ice I use an old style full length 3/4ins  thermarest on top of an old 5 season karrimat. Very warm but also quite heavy.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: jimbob on 16:48:12, 23/06/18
Hi Marmottungsten, based on your earlier praise of, and answers to queries about your favourite sleeping mat I tried one out on a recent visit to Settle. I am a side sleeper, and tried all ways to get comfy on an XFrame,. No chance for me personally. I even popped it inside my poncho to  see if having a continuous cover helped. So, without sounding disrespectful of your praise of the mats , I would advise others to try before they buy if they are side sleepers., especially if you are a fidgety side  sleeper.

The shop assistant did state that they were the Marmite of the sleep mat world.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: marmottungsten on 16:52:20, 23/06/18
All very well having your mat inside your bag until you roll over. According to my ex, I'm the worlds most annoying fidgety sleeper, so that system wouldn't work for me.
I use a short neo air lite for three season use. It's OK but if your groundsheet is silicon/nylon both your mat and your groundsheet have a very slidey finish. Means your mat is constantly shooting out from under you, dobs of silicon glue on both surfaces is the answer.
For camping on snow/ice I use an old style full length 3/4ins  thermarest on top of an old 5 season karrimat. Very warm but also quite heavy.


But with the X-Frame inside your sleeping bag it can never roll away!  No need glue of any kind.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: marmottungsten on 17:02:00, 23/06/18
Hi Marmottungsten, based on your earlier praise of, and answers to queries about your favourite sleeping mat I tried one out on a recent visit to Settle. I am a side sleeper, and tried all ways to get comfy on an XFrame,. No chance for me personally. I even popped it inside my poncho to  see if having a continuous cover helped. So, without sounding disrespectful of your praise of the mats , I would advise others to try before they buy if they are side sleepers., especially if you are a fidgety side  sleeper.

The shop assistant did state that they were the Marmite of the sleep mat world.


So what you are saying is that you tried lying on it when it was not inside your sleeping bag? (I assume that is what you meant by Poncho?...or do you not use Sleeping bags??)...As I have stated before, it is not designed to go under a sleeping bag, it must go inside it.  And I am a side sleeper yet I find the X-Frame very comfortable...However, I am 6 foot 1" and weigh a healthy 78kg...If you heavier than me, as most Americans are, then I can see why you might have had an issue.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: NeilC on 17:03:56, 23/06/18

The shop assistant did state that they were the Marmite of the sleep mat world.


Tru dat.


If you're a side sleeper or a night mover then it ain't gonna work. Others seems to love them.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: jimbob on 20:22:41, 23/06/18
HI Marmot tungsten,  I am 6'3" and could give you 13kg and still be slightly heavier than you. I didn't have my sleeping bag with me that day so just winged it with my poncho.  Truly I wanted it to work,
Will stick to my adapted foam pad till I find what I'm looking for.

Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: richardh1905 on 21:21:00, 23/06/18


If you think the comfortable X-Frame is uncomfortable then you certainly wouldn't want to try using a half length mat, and boots for a pillow!...You shouldn't be envious of people using sawn off mats, you should pity them, for they know not what they are missing!  :D


Getting out into the wilds isn't all about comfort and having the latest gear, marmot; if I was interested in the easy life then I wouldn't have gone hiking up into the trackless Eidart valley last weekend, I'd have booked into a B&B or camped from the boot of the car with a cheapo SIM. In fact, in some respects, enduring some discomfort on a long walk/wild camp can add to the experience - but only up to a point!


I'll finish with the final paragraph of  'A short walk in the Hindu Kush' by Eric Newby (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Newby) (published 1958)


The ground was like iron with sharp rocks sticking up out of it. We started to blow up our air beds. 'God, you must be a couple of pansies,' said Thesinger (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilfred_Thesiger). ;)
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: marmottungsten on 22:44:35, 23/06/18
But the pansies both slept soundly, the whole night, on their comfortable inflatable sleeping mats, whilst Thesinger, meanwhile, tossed and turned the entire night as the sharp rocks below him made him extremely uncomfortable...So much so that it stopped him getting any sleep at all...The next morning it was the pansies that had the last laugh on Thesinger, he now being too tired to retaliate to their merciless ribbing at being such a stubborn fool!  ;D
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: richardh1905 on 23:42:29, 23/06/18
 ;D
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: richardh1905 on 10:07:24, 24/06/18

HI Marmot tungsten,  I am 6'3" and could give you 13kg and still be slightly heavier than you. I didn't have my sleeping bag with me that day so just winged it with my poncho.  Truly I wanted it to work,
Will stick to my adapted foam pad till I find what I'm looking for.


Have you seen the Klymit Inertio O Zone pads (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Klymit-Inertia-Zone-Lightweight-Camping/dp/B00GK4LUXQ/ref=pd_lutyp_simh_1_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00GK4LUXQ&pd_rd_r=f41590e5-4f04-40f4-a853-5ce695e727c8&pd_rd_w=BDgxM&pd_rd_wg=ROlVx&psc=1&refRID=SJD3K3AVSDK55KZW5KZ6), jimbob?


Smaller gaps, so might be a bit better for people who sleep on their side or move around a bit. A bit heavier than the X frame though, but not unbearably so.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: jimbob on 10:32:58, 24/06/18
Will look into them, Richard.

Currently I use a cut down foam mat sheathed in foil /foam car "beach  mat" cut and taped down the sides with aluminium jointing tape.  Very light. No probs with cold. I get to sleep on it. BUT it rolls up too big for any rucksack known to average man. So is strapped on in a bin bag.


Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: gunwharfman on 11:10:46, 24/06/18
The X frame seems to have lots of gaps to let cold through? Even in your sleeping bag can this be a problem or do you have to ensure you have something else underneath you as an insulator? With so many edges do you get airleaks more often?

I couldn't use one because I use a sleeping quilt which does not have a back or a hood.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: marmottungsten on 19:20:49, 24/06/18
The X frame seems to have lots of gaps to let cold through? Even in your sleeping bag can this be a problem or do you have to ensure you have something else underneath you as an insulator? With so many edges do you get airleaks more often?

I couldn't use one because I use a sleeping quilt which does not have a back or a hood.


I place an ultralight space blanket on the floor of the tent, and the sleeping bag goes on top of that.  It offers great thermal insulation by reflecting my body heat back up towards me, rather than allowing it to escape to the cold ground under the tent.  A space blanket is very light and only costs about 80p on ebay, so it was a no brainer to me.
It's wider than the floor of my tent, so when I want to warm up faster I can simply flip the rest over my sleeping bag, then flip it away again if I get too hot.  You don't need to fold it carefully, I just scrunch it up into a ball and throw it my Trekmates 8L compression sack along with my tent.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: richardh1905 on 20:06:20, 24/06/18


I place an ultralight space blanket on the floor of the tent, and the sleeping bag goes on top of that.  It offers great thermal insulation by reflecting my body heat back up towards me, rather than allowing it to escape to the cold ground under the tent.  A space blanket is very light and only costs about 80p on ebay, so it was a no brainer to me.
It's wider than the floor of my tent, so when I want to warm up faster I can simply flip the rest over my sleeping bag, then flip it away again if I get too hot.  You don't need to fold it carefully, I just scrunch it up into a ball and throw it my Trekmates 8L compression sack along with my tent.


A space blanket would make a good footprint, perhaps.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: marmottungsten on 21:04:27, 24/06/18

A space blanket would make a good footprint, perhaps.


Possibly...The plastic film it's made seems quite tough but it's also very thin and would probably get pierced easily by sharp objects, like broken off twigs or split stones, if used under a tent.  That probably wouldn't stop it's insulation properties but it might let groundwater in through any holes it might get. 
As my tent already came with a footprint,  the thought of using the space blanket under my tent never came to my mind.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: richardh1905 on 07:48:54, 25/06/18


Possibly...The plastic film it's made seems quite tough but it's also very thin and would probably get pierced easily by sharp objects, like broken off twigs or split stones, if used under a tent.  That probably wouldn't stop it's insulation properties but it might let groundwater in through any holes it might get. 
As my tent already came with a footprint,  the thought of using the space blanket under my tent never came to my mind.


Think that I'm going to give it a try; I don't bother with a footprint as I have a cheapo tent, which, as you know, is quite heavy enough. If the space blanket gets wrecked, it hardly matters; they cost next to nothing.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: NeilC on 08:30:47, 25/06/18
Reflectors don't work when covered in a material that does not allow radiation to pass, in the same way that a mirror doesn't work if you throw a sheet over it. So they're pointless under a sleeping bag. You need an air gap between the reflector and the source of heat radiation.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: April on 08:58:40, 25/06/18
You shouldn't be envious of people using sawn off mats, you should pity them, for they know not what they are missing!  :D

Well I use a sawn off foam mat and a 3/4 thermarest prolite. I sleep on my side in a foetal postion. I am happy with me set up, I am very comfortable and sleep like a log. MT you have to realise not everyone is the same, your mat might suit you but it won't suit everyone. I wouldn't use your mat if I was paid to do so.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: KimE on 12:24:32, 25/06/18

"Made from lightweight 15D UltraSil®"[/color]  
[/color]  
The sea to Summit mat may go from 90£ to 0£ in value in a very short time, and it lacks insulation.[/color]  
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: richardh1905 on 14:27:09, 25/06/18


Reflectors don't work when covered in a material that does not allow radiation to pass, in the same way that a mirror doesn't work if you throw a sheet over it. So they're pointless under a sleeping bag. You need an air gap between the reflector and the source of heat radiation.

My motive for considering using a space blanket as a footprint is not heat saving, by the way; it is purely for physical protection of the groundsheet.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: marmottungsten on 00:26:04, 26/06/18
No delete button?
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: marmottungsten on 00:35:23, 26/06/18
Reflectors don't work when covered in a material that does not allow radiation to pass, in the same way that a mirror doesn't work if you throw a sheet over it. So they're pointless under a sleeping bag. You need an air gap between the reflector and the source of heat radiation.


They are NOT pointless under a sleeping bag, especially under down sleeping bags, because the down in the bottom of the sleeping bag gets compressed by your body weight, greatly reducing it's insulation properties...In other words, it allows heat to escape from the bottom of the sleeping bag far faster than it can at the top, where the down is uncompressed.  So putting a space blanket under a down sleeping bag is the lightest and easiest method to reflect this otherwise lost body heat back upwards, thereby keeping you warmer.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: NeilC on 08:41:55, 26/06/18

They are NOT pointless under a sleeping bag, especially under down sleeping bags, because the down in the bottom of the sleeping bag gets compressed by your body weight, greatly reducing it's insulation properties...In other words, it allows heat to escape from the bottom of the sleeping bag far faster than it can at the top, where the down is uncompressed.  So putting a space blanket under a down sleeping bag is the lightest and easiest method to reflect this otherwise lost body heat back upwards, thereby keeping you warmer.


With respect, you've missed the point I made. Obviously one needs insulation under a sleeping bag, nobody would argue any different. It's just that reflectors don't work without an air gap. So there is little point in the reflective mat without an air gap, other than any other insulation it happens to provide.

Your mat is one design that it could help a lot with because it has so much space between the tubes but only if you have the mat placed in such a way as to create air for reflector to work with. I seem to remember you said you used your mat inside your bag, in which case you'd want the reflector also inside the bag and under the mat.

Actually there is more flexibility than that because shiny surfaces are also very poor emitters of radiation. So you can put one, shiny side out, to say line a hammock and it will reduce the radiation heat loss a lot but this also needs to be facing the air to work. The Ridgerest design benefits from this as it is ridged on both sides creating air gaps in both directors and I think they claim something like a 10% increase in R value.

See: http://www.radiantbarrierguru.com/new-videowhy-is-an-air-gap-required-for-radiant-barrier-to-work/ (http://www.radiantbarrierguru.com/new-videowhy-is-an-air-gap-required-for-radiant-barrier-to-work/)


Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: richardh1905 on 08:51:18, 26/06/18


Good explanation, Neil.


If the sleeping bag touches the foil, then heat is lost through conduction, negating the effectiveness of the foil. If there is an air gap, then conduction cannot occur, and the foil will reflect say 95% of the heat back (there will also be losses by convection within the air gap, but these will be minimal).


Having said that, the sleeping bag will not make perfect contact with the foil, so it will be of some benefit. Indeed, some foam mats have a layer of foil on one side.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: NeilC on 09:33:38, 26/06/18

Good explanation, Neil.


If the sleeping bag touches the foil, then heat is lost through conduction, negating the effectiveness of the foil. If there is an air gap, then conduction cannot occur, and the foil will reflect say 95% of the heat back (there will also be losses by convection within the air gap, but these will be minimal).


Having said that, the sleeping bag will not make perfect contact with the foil, so it will be of some benefit. Indeed, some foam mats have a layer of foil on one side.


Sorry Richard I just posted another reply whilst you wrote this so I'm out of sync.


But yes, any air gap will let it work, where that gap exists. However I wanted to see how much a sleeping bag flatted out so tried pressing up against a glass door and even laid over a glass coffee table in my down bag (OK I might be a bit of nerd!) and it flattens out very well unfortunately - very few and very small air spaces that I could see. Different bags may crinkle up more perhaps?


Slivered mats that are ridged will work much better hence the Thermarest designs, and there are orientations one can think of that do produce air gaps. My own sleeping mat has vertical baffles so there are gaps between them so under that on a flat groundsheet would help a little. But people sticking a reflector under a flat pad, or lying on a space blanket thinking it will "reflect their bodyheat" are generally wasting their time. I'm not convinced about silvered flat mats. Call me cynical but just because a company sells something, doesn't mean it works  ;D


I looked up human heat loss a while back and according to a medical paper looking at people in surgery, a naked person in still air loses most of their heat through radiation. I was surprised. But then it's not often we lay there uncovered in still air whilst camping. I think we all know from experience that the major loss downwards is conduction.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: marmottungsten on 00:18:09, 27/06/18

With respect, you've missed the point I made. Obviously one needs insulation under a sleeping bag, nobody would argue any different. It's just that reflectors don't work without an air gap. So there is little point in the reflective mat without an air gap, other than any other insulation it happens to provide.

Your mat is one design that it could help a lot with because it has so much space between the tubes but only if you have the mat placed in such a way as to create air for reflector to work with. I seem to remember you said you used your mat inside your bag, in which case you'd want the reflector also inside the bag and under the mat.

Actually there is more flexibility than that because shiny surfaces are also very poor emitters of radiation. So you can put one, shiny side out, to say line a hammock and it will reduce the radiation heat loss a lot but this also needs to be facing the air to work. The Ridgerest design benefits from this as it is ridged on both sides creating air gaps in both directors and I think they claim something like a 10% increase in R value.

See: http://www.radiantbarrierguru.com/new-videowhy-is-an-air-gap-required-for-radiant-barrier-to-work/ (http://www.radiantbarrierguru.com/new-videowhy-is-an-air-gap-required-for-radiant-barrier-to-work/)


I don't think you realise how Infra red radiation propagates Neil...It does not need air to travel through at all...It will happily travel through a vacuum...For instance the heat from the Sun that we feel on Earth...It is infra red radiation from 93 million miles away, despite there being a deep vacuum between the two.  And Space blankets (or Mylar, to give it it's proper name) is highly reflective to infra red radiation...That is why they work as emergency blankets, despite being extremely thin.  When you wrap one around yourself it reflects the body heat you are radiating back towards you, keeping you warm...And it does exactly the same under a sleeping bag! 
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: marmottungsten on 00:20:29, 27/06/18

Good explanation, Neil.


If the sleeping bag touches the foil, then heat is lost through conduction, negating the effectiveness of the foil. If there is an air gap, then conduction cannot occur, and the foil will reflect say 95% of the heat back (there will also be losses by convection within the air gap, but these will be minimal).




Nonsense...Mylar is both an insulator and a reflector...It cannot conduct heat away, it just reflects it back towards you!
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: marmottungsten on 00:34:31, 27/06/18

Sorry Richard I just posted another reply whilst you wrote this so I'm out of sync.


But yes, any air gap will let it work, where that gap exists. However I wanted to see how much a sleeping bag flatted out so tried pressing up against a glass door and even laid over a glass coffee table in my down bag (OK I might be a bit of nerd!) and it flattens out very well unfortunately - very few and very small air spaces that I could see. Different bags may crinkle up more perhaps?


Slivered mats that are ridged will work much better hence the Thermarest designs, and there are orientations one can think of that do produce air gaps. My own sleeping mat has vertical baffles so there are gaps between them so under that on a flat groundsheet would help a little. But people sticking a reflector under a flat pad, or lying on a space blanket thinking it will "reflect their bodyheat" are generally wasting their time. I'm not convinced about silvered flat mats. Call me cynical but just because a company sells something, doesn't mean it works  ;D


I looked up human heat loss a while back and according to a medical paper looking at people in surgery, a naked person in still air loses most of their heat through radiation.


And space blankets reflect this radiation back to you!...They are also called emergency blankets and are used to stop people getting hypothermia.
Thermarest mats are just inflatable mats with a space blanket bonded to one of the inside surfaces...Which is why they make so much noise when you so much as twitch on them...They are doing the exact same thing I am doing...putting a space blanket under a sleeping bag...The only difference is they are combining it with the inflatable mat and I am doing it seperately.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: richardh1905 on 07:20:59, 27/06/18



Nonsense...Mylar is both an insulator and a reflector...It cannot conduct heat away, it just reflects it back towards you!


The mylar that you speak of is a fraction of a millimetre thick, and will conduct heat very readily. Try wrapping your space blanket around a metal mug of hot coffee and picking it up if you don't believe me.


On second thoughts, don't; I don't want you to get scalded.




Edit - thermal conductivity of Mylar is 0.15W/M/K, similar to that of wood!
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: NeilC on 08:44:47, 27/06/18



And space blankets reflect this radiation back to you!...They are also called emergency blankets and are used to stop people getting hypothermia.
Thermarest mats are just inflatable mats with a space blanket bonded to one of the inside surfaces...Which is why they make so much noise when you so much as twitch on them...They are doing the exact same thing I am doing...putting a space blanket under a sleeping bag...The only difference is they are combining it with the inflatable mat and I am doing it seperately.






Nonsense...Mylar is both an insulator and a reflector...It cannot conduct heat away, it just reflects it back towards you!




I don't think you realise how Infra red radiation propagates Neil...It does not need air to travel through at all...It will happily travel through a vacuum...For instance the heat from the Sun that we feel on Earth...It is infra red radiation from 93 million miles away, despite there being a deep vacuum between the two.  And Space blankets (or Mylar, to give it it's proper name) is highly reflective to infra red radiation...That is why they work as emergency blankets, despite being extremely thin.  When you wrap one around yourself it reflects the body heat you are radiating back towards you, keeping you warm...And it does exactly the same under a sleeping bag!


I'd replied to all your points in turn but I'm not sure it's really going to help much. I studied physics at university, black body radiation being the very first course we did  I think I've got a basic understanding.

If you're going to insist a reflector in direct contact with an opaque material still reflects IR then you need to be able to explain why a mirror doesn't work when covered in a thin sheet but why you think a reflective sheet will reflect IR when covered in a sleeping bag or flat foam mat, neither of which are transparent to IR. What are the differences that make on impossible but the other possible?

You might also ask yourself why The Department of Energy states an air gap is required when using radiant heat barriers, if they're not needed?: https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/weatherize/insulation/radiant-barriers (https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/weatherize/insulation/radiant-barriers)

I can provide a much more detailed and technical explanation of the physics involved but I suspect 99% of the board are bored stiff already - but I will if you really want  ;D


Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: jimbob on 09:26:01, 27/06/18
Not nonsense. I think you owe the man an apology.
Anything that directly touches another thing causes conduction to occur, with heat passing from the hottest to the less hot.The only time it doesn't happen is when both articles are at the same temperature.
The efficiency of that heat transfer is dependant upon the insulating capabilites of the item itself. If you look closely at those capabilities it is usually more efficient if the material has trapped air, i.e. down ,polystyrene, as opposed to denser less airy materials such as concrete or engineering brick.


Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: marmottungsten on 11:37:36, 27/06/18





I'd replied to all your points in turn but I'm not sure it's really going to help much. I studied physics at university, black body radiation being the very first course we did  I think I've got a basic understanding.



Seems you didn't study hard enough!

Quote from: NeilC

If you're going to insist a reflector in direct contact with an opaque material still reflects IR then you need to be able to explain why a mirror doesn't work when covered in a thin sheet but why you think a reflective sheet will reflect IR when covered in a sleeping bag or flat foam mat, neither of which are transparent to IR. What are the differences that make on impossible but the other possible?


So you think a sleeping bag is not transparent to IR???  This assumption is totally wrong!...Any sleeping bag will allow IR to radiate out of it...if it didn't you would quickly overheat!  It is the quality and thickness of the insulation in the sleeping bag that slows down IR radiation loss (or "traps" it), but it can never stop it.  Even the warmest sleeping bag will still allow IR radiation through, it just traps more IR for longer than less well insulated sleeping bags can.  That is why some sleeping bags are warmer than others.
And when the down in the bottom of a sleeping bag is compressed it's ability to trap IR radiation is greatly reduced, allowing more IR radiation to exit from the bottom of the sleeping bag than the uncompressed top...With nothing between the floor of the tent and the bottom of the sleeping bag, this IR radiation would be quickly conducted away to the cold floor below, because heat is lost to cold objects, and your back would feel cold.  A space blanket is an effective reflector of IR radiation (why you find this so hard to grasp I cannot fathom?), so when placed between the floor of the tent and the bottom of the sleeping bag it reflects the IR being radiated from the bottom of the sleeping bag back upwards, preventing it being conducted away by the cold floor below, keeping your back warmer than it would otherwise be. 


Quote from: NeilC



You  might also ask yourself why The Department of Energy states an air gap is required when using radiant heat barriers, if they're not needed?: https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/weatherize/insulation/radiant-barriers (https://www.energy.gov/energysaver/weatherize/insulation/radiant-barriers)




What do you think the compressed down in the bottom of the sleeping bag is providing between it and the space blanket...a Vacuum?  No, it provides the very air gap you keep going on about!


Quote from: NeilC



I can provide a much more detailed and technical explanation of the physics involved but I suspect 99% of the board are bored stiff already - but I will if you really want  ;D



I wouldn't bother, you clearly don't have a clue about the physics involved!
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: richardh1905 on 11:48:48, 27/06/18
Oh dear....
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: NeilC on 12:33:12, 27/06/18
I give up!  ::)
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: alan de enfield on 12:56:59, 27/06/18



Deleted
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: jimbob on 14:07:30, 27/06/18
MMT you are not coming across at all well.

Hopefully you are being mischievous and not just trolling for effect as so many do on other forums.
Clearly you do not fully understand thermodynamics, so let it rest.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: Owen on 14:44:20, 27/06/18


Seems you didn't study hard enough!




What's that old saying about pots and kettles?
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: Mel on 19:47:31, 27/06/18
Marmottungsten, do you speak to people in real life like this?:


Seems you didn't study hard enough!


I wouldn't bother, you clearly don't have a clue about the physics involved!


 
Fair enough, disagree and discuss, but don't disparage.

 
It seems I'm not the only one who thinks you are a troll.  Please prove us wrong.

 

 
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: Doddy on 15:44:31, 28/06/18
I use the Klymit Inertia 3/4 length at 5ft 7 does me fine. I did get a leak which was devil to fix; seemed OK till I put my full weight on it.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: April on 21:45:23, 28/06/18
Here is a link to a review of the Klymit Inertia X-lite by daveswildcamping

http://daveswildcamping.com/?page_id=2101

As Dave says, it isn't good.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: alan de enfield on 21:56:33, 28/06/18
Here is a link to a review of the Klymit Inertia X-lite by daveswildcamping

http://daveswildcamping.com/?page_id=2101 (http://daveswildcamping.com/?page_id=2101)

As Dave says, it isn't good.



I remember seeing another review with a similar result, the summary was something like :


If you are over 5' 8", are a 'side-sleeper', have shoulders wider than a match-stick, want to camp in temperatures below +10c then forget this mat - it is useless.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: richardh1905 on 09:04:09, 29/06/18


Here is a link to a review of the Klymit Inertia X-lite by daveswildcamping


http://daveswildcamping.com/?page_id=2101 (http://daveswildcamping.com/?page_id=2101)


As Dave says, it isn't good.


Definitely not for me, but there are a lot of positive reviews out there too.


PS - Dave does like his steaks!
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: April on 12:20:06, 29/06/18
It seems to be a bit like marmite this mat.

I thought the review was very funny, these bits in particular

"the Klymit Inertia X-lite has been banished to a box I call my wildcamping junkbox for the past year, BEST PLACE FOR THIS PILE OF [censored]"

"There are times in your life when you feel you have been robbed and feel the money could have better been spent wiping your [censored] well this is it.

PURE GARBAGE"
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: richardh1905 on 12:21:51, 29/06/18
He doesn't pull his punches, does he?!  :)
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: April on 12:29:41, 29/06/18
It is safe to say Dave didn't think much of the Klymit  :)

Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: richardh1905 on 16:41:23, 29/06/18


After all that I have said about camping mats, I've just taken a punt on a 'lightweight' (506g) camping mat from Lidl; price £17.99, with a 3 year guarantee. Not for my own use of course - honest!  :D


https://www.lidl.co.uk/en/Non-Food-Offers.htm?articleId=14154 (https://www.lidl.co.uk/en/Non-Food-Offers.htm?articleId=14154)


I'll report back on whether it is any good.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: JVB on 08:35:31, 22/07/18
So, after some debate and review I opted for (wait for it!) a Klymit Static V lightweight inflatable.... I am a side sleeper and fidget quite a bit. I used this for the first time and my first wild camp last week and felt very comfortable. It made very little noise when fidgeting around, I wasn’t cold but it did try to get away from me once or twice. I think I’m gonna Velcro the [censored] to the base of my tent.


I think something that has been missing from the reviews is the size and weight of the person using it. I know it’s a personal thing but if you are more mountain troll than Hobbit (Trying to add a little humour, apologies for any offence) then I’d assume you would have an issue with a lot of mats/pads etc, especially if you side sleep? I am more Hobbit. 5’6 and 12stone, So when on my side on uneven ground I was still completely supported by the mat. If you are a bigger gent and have found something comfortable to sleep on your side with that’s light and doesn’t run off I’d be very interested to hear. Thanks.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: NeilC on 10:22:05, 22/07/18
The Static V is a different model to the X Frame.


The V is a fairly straightforward design so not controversial.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: JVB on 10:40:13, 22/07/18
The ‘wait for it’ was meant as a sigh of relief to step away from the controversial, awkward conversation, which was a tough read.  :( 



Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: fernman on 11:35:43, 22/07/18
To prevent the mat "getting away" / "running off" as you put it, you could put a bit of anti-slip mat underneath it.
I've been using a 100cm x 30cm rectangle from Wilko for a few years, but in the interests of saving carrying its 96g weight I've just bought some HG Anti-Slip Spray which I'm going to apply to the underside of my Multimat Superlite Compact 25S (which incidentally is 340g, compared with the 513g weight of your Klymit Static V).
I used something similar before on a Thermarest. The result looked like dried Copydex. It was effective at stopping the mat sliding around though it didn't look very pretty and it wore off, had to be re-done after a couple of years.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: richardh1905 on 15:21:10, 22/07/18

my Multimat Superlite Compact 25S (which incidentally is 340g, compared with the 513g weight of your Klymit Static V).


To be fair, you are not really comparing like with like regarding weight. Good tip though.


PS - I use an ancient cut down closed cell Karrimat (which incidentally is 208g, compared with the 340g weight of your Multimat Superlite Compact 25S)  ;)
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: NeilC on 19:30:41, 22/07/18
The ‘wait for it’ was meant as a sigh of relief to step away from the controversial, awkward conversation, which was a tough read.  :(


Yeah soz, I thought you'd not noticed we were discussing a different mat.


Your mat should be good for back or side sleeping for most sized peiple as it's not that weird frame design.


They all tend to slip away. On thIe advice if a forum member, Ive dabbed spots of McNett SeamSeal on both sides of my mat and on the floor of the tent. That adds useful levels of grippiness for no extra weight. So I spend less time sliding down the tent now.


But obviously youd wanna be sure you were not gonna return the mat anytime soon.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: gunwharfman on 20:42:06, 22/07/18
I can honestly say that my NeoAir has never slipped or slid when I'm sleeping on it, it just stays where I place it.
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: fernman on 08:36:31, 23/07/18
I can honestly say that my NeoAir has never slipped or slid when I'm sleeping on it, it just stays where I place it.

They're made with a non-slip fabric. Which you'd expect for the price!
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: marmottungsten on 20:56:28, 28/07/18
To prevent the mat "getting away" / "running off" as you put it, you could put a bit of anti-slip mat underneath it.
I've been using a 100cm x 30cm rectangle from Wilko for a few years, but in the interests of saving carrying its 96g weight I've just bought some HG Anti-Slip Spray which I'm going to apply to the underside of my Multimat Superlite Compact 25S (which incidentally is 340g, compared with the 513g weight of your Klymit Static V).


The Multimat Superlite Compact 25S is only 119cm (3', 10 3/4") long, and 1" thick, which really only makes it suitable for midget humans or dogs, whereas the Klymit Static V is a full length sleeping mat, which is 182.9cm (6') long, and 2.5" thick, so its like comparing chalk to cheese.
 The Static V is a bit on the heavy side though and it starts at around £55...It's only saving grace is that it's available in a range of colours, including woodland camo.  However, Lidls are currently selling Crivit inflatable sleeping mats.  Yes, they are only available in a horrible bright orange colour, but they are very cheap (just £17.99!) and at 494g (without the storage sack) they are reasonably light too.  They also come with a 3 year warranty too, so it's definitely worth a punt
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: richardh1905 on 22:18:42, 28/07/18


The Multimat Superlite Compact 25S is only 119cm (3', 10 3/4") long, and 1" thick, which really only makes it suitable for midget humans or dogs,...


I get on perfectly well with a 120cm mat; you only really need to insulate under your torso, although I do appreciate that others do prefer a full length mat, at the expense of the extra weight.


Quote
The Static V is a bit on the heavy side though and it starts at around £55...It's only saving grace is that it's available in a range of colours, including woodland camo.  However, Lidls are currently selling Crivit inflatable sleeping mats.  Yes, they are only available in a horrible bright orange colour, but they are very cheap (just £17.99!) and at 494g (without the storage sack) they are reasonably light too.  They also come with a 3 year warranty too, so it's definitely worth a punt



I took a punt on one of the Lidl mats, for 'boot of the car' camping - very comfortable. I really couldn't care less about the colour; I'm asleep, after all!  ;)
Title: Re: Sleeping mat matters
Post by: fernman on 16:02:29, 23/08/18
To prevent the mat "getting away" / "running off" as you put it, you could put a bit of anti-slip mat underneath it.
I've been using a 100cm x 30cm rectangle from Wilko for a few years, but in the interests of saving carrying its 96g weight I've just bought some HG Anti-Slip Spray which I'm going to apply to the underside of my Multimat Superlite Compact 25S (which incidentally is 340g, compared with the 513g weight of your Klymit Static V).
I used something similar before on a Thermarest. The result looked like dried Copydex. It was effective at stopping the mat sliding around though it didn't look very pretty and it wore off, had to be re-done after a couple of years.

Just an update on what I posted a month ago: I finally got around to using the afore-mentioned HG Anti-Slip Spray, which is intended for use on rugs and floor mats. The small print on the bottle say it "can be used on just about any surface."
The product sprays on white and uneven, but I easily spread it around with a folded piece of kitchen roll.
It dries colourless but shiny, however it doesn't exactly "dry", it remains tacky. Think of sticking plaster, though not quite as strong, that'll give you an idea.
There is no doubt my ground mat won't slide around in the tent any more, but I'm a bit apprehensive as to whether it will affect the groundsheet at all, in spite of the bottle saying it "does not come off". I'm also wondering whether all the bits of grass, dust and grit that I get in my tent will end up stuck to it. I'm reluctant to experiment to find out, I'm just going to wait till I use them.
Another effect is that when I fold my ground mat down the centre and roll it up (that is how it came originally), the two halves stick firmly together and need pulling apart for re-use.
Have I ruined a perfectly good ground mat and possibly to the detriment of my tent as well? I'll let you know.