Author Topic: Leave them to die!  (Read 1701 times)

Strider

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Leave them to die!
« on: 11:58:46, 07/08/17 »
A group of walkers rescued from Helvellyn at the weekend: https://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2017/08/06/three-teams-in-rescue-operation-to-bring-hypothermic-helvellyn-walkers-to-safety

Seems they didn't expect they could get hypothermia in England, in August.....

But check out the comments at the bottom...

"I don't like to sound critical, but .....  It would be much better if people who venture unprepared onto the hills were left to die."

Blimey!
Not all those who wander are lost

Bhod

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Re: Leave them to die!
« Reply #1 on: 13:20:22, 07/08/17 »
Although I don't agree with the comment, I can understand the sentiments though. 

Yesterday doing the Fairfield Horseshoe I was on the return to Rydal when I came across a man and (I presume), his three teenage daughters.  Asking how far they where going they replied they wanted to complete the horseshoe., 2 of the daughters in trainers and shorts, the other in leggings and tshirt and the man in  jeans and shirt, not a single waterproof in sight, no backpack and no discernable method of navigation.  Having just come off fairfield where the cloud had come down, where the wind had picked up bringing the windchill factor down to 0degrees and with impending rain forecast, I tried my best to advise them against it but to no avail.  With a good luck and enjoy your walk I left them to it, when the rain came down 15 minutes later I hope they changed their minds, failing that I hope they stayed safe and didn't have recourse to get the MRT out.
Not a complete idiot, bits of me are missing.

vghikers

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Re: Leave them to die!
« Reply #2 on: 14:03:38, 07/08/17 »
A very harsh response in that particular case, the situation may have become really serious, but I understand where he's coming from in general: personal responsibility seems to be an alien concept today, there's always someone else to bail you out.

How many of us here, privately or publicly, get a bit pi55ed off when we hear about the MRT being essentially used as an escort service?. People calling them out not for injuries or medical problems, not because the conditions have unexpectedly turned dangerously harsh in winter say, but simply because the mist descends and they're lost. That's not what the MRT is for. If that's the only problem and the conditions are reasonably benign, they should sort themselves out. That's how we learn. It's far too easy to key in a number and be bailed out.

Hmmm, maybe calls to the MRT should be answered by the holographic doctor from Star Trek:

"Please state the nature of the medical emergency..."

sussamb

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Re: Leave them to die!
« Reply #3 on: 14:17:29, 07/08/17 »
That's not what the MRT is for. If that's the only problem and the conditions are reasonably benign, they should sort themselves out. That's how we learn.

Agree 100 percent.  It's how I suspect many of us here learnt, by making mistakes, learning from them and hopefully not repeating them.  Even in bad weather I'd like to think many of us here would have a bail out plan.  I'm afraid though in today's society many don't simply have the common sense to sort themselves out.  I could bore you silly with the number of calls I've attended that were given as 'serious bleeding' that turned out to be nothing more than a simple cut that a minute or so of pressure would have stopped, or patients having an 'allergic reaction' that was nothing more than a normal bee or wasp sting, or etc etc  >:(
Where there's a will ...

fernman

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Re: Leave them to die!
« Reply #4 on: 14:34:45, 07/08/17 »
The incident sort of ties in with the cadets, 17 of whom had hypothermia, that were rescued in Ireland last week.  Many of us on here have experienced the sort of conditions they did, I know I have, but then we'd have been completely equipped for it, wouldn't we. In my case I could have up to 5 layers on my top half (including waterproof) plus hat and mittens as well, and it's all synthetic stuff not cotton that is cold when damp or wet.
But the chances are the cadets only had what their mums and dads could afford for them and probably some of their day-to-day wear as well. (Or would they have been wearing army cadets issue clothing, which might be even worse?) No leader is going to say sorry son, you can't come on the trip because those trousers or that jumper aren't really good enough if we get bad weather, while your sleeping bag is only any good for using in a caravan.

tonyk

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Re: Leave them to die!
« Reply #5 on: 14:44:36, 07/08/17 »
Could have happened to anyone but in the past we would have fought our way out of it instead of pressing a button on a phone and wait for nanny state to come to the rescue.I blame modern society for suppressing people's natural survival instincts.

gunwharfman

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Re: Leave them to die!
« Reply #6 on: 15:37:00, 07/08/17 »
Looked at another way, we live in a capitalist society and every time emergency services are bought out it hopefully it secures peoples jobs and acts as a pressure lever to employ more. I assume at the same time all sorts of business that are involved in the emergency services 'industries' will make even more money? Unless I am way off beam, we should be grateful to the people who get into trouble on the hills?

Even if they are 'left to die', someone would make money from it.

I would bet that since the Health and Safety law has come into being, huge numbers of jobs, industries and wealth both directly and indirectly have been created for lots of people and companies as well.

I am a great believer in the idea that as old industries like shipbuilding, coal mining and so on have died, so capitalism creates new industries to fill the gap and more, e.g. Health and Safety, Dating, Holidays, Laws, Complaining, (I know a little bit about this one) the Facebooks, Twitters, elderly care, the forms industry and so on and so on.

tonyk

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Re: Leave them to die!
« Reply #7 on: 17:15:54, 07/08/17 »
Looked at another way, we live in a capitalist society and every time emergency services are bought out it hopefully it secures peoples jobs and acts as a pressure lever to employ more. I assume at the same time all sorts of business that are involved in the emergency services 'industries' will make even more money? Unless I am way off beam, we should be grateful to the people who get into trouble on the hills?

 Trouble is the MRT isn't a business and is funded by donations.Evertime they get called out someone loses money.Perhaps Tesco should get into the mountain rescue business.Buy one,get one free,and value rescue etc.




KimE

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Re: Leave them to die!
« Reply #8 on: 17:24:02, 07/08/17 »
I know a ex.  helicopter pilot in a weelchair they were rescueing mountain climbers then a windgust blew the heli. in to the mountain, his freind the copilot died there. The people they were trying to rescue survived then they could leave the mountain by themself.

Percy

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Re: Leave them to die!
« Reply #9 on: 18:13:46, 07/08/17 »
Not only should they be left to die but they should then be shot, hung, drawn, quartered and finally run over by a steamroller. It's the only way they'll learn.

pauldawes

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Re: Leave them to die!
« Reply #10 on: 18:39:52, 07/08/17 »
Should there be a token call out charge...say 25 quid a person?

jethro10

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Re: Leave them to die!
« Reply #11 on: 19:18:39, 07/08/17 »
Not only should they be left to die but they should then be shot, hung, drawn, quartered and finally run over by a steamroller. It's the only way they'll learn.
Agreed  ;)
Might even be some useful gear left to collect.
J

quixoticgeek

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Re: Leave them to die!
« Reply #12 on: 20:47:20, 07/08/17 »



I see the general compassion crisis continues...


Leave them to die on the mountain? sure, and who has to collect the body? I'm pretty certain most MRT's would rather go recover a live idiot off a mountain, than carry a body bag down.


Token call out charge? Same reason it's a bad idea to charge for GP access. Someone who puts it off until the last moment may make things worse. An early call out may be the difference between 4 live people coming down the mountain, and 4 body bags. Same as an early visit to the GP may catch that lump early enough that it can be treated before it metastasises.


People make mistakes, some people don't listen to the warnings provided. But to say things like leave them to die on the mountain devalues the work and effort of every member of SAR who 365ľ days a year, puts their lives on hold to help people in need, be it through negligence, misfortune, or ill health.


Perhaps, bare that in mind when you next walk past a MRT or LSAR collecting tin.


J


(It could be people are being sarcastic, but if so I'm not picking up on the queues/clues.)
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Mel

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Re: Leave them to die!
« Reply #13 on: 21:00:44, 07/08/17 »
....(It could be people are being sarcastic, but if so I'm not picking up on the queues/clues.)
Yep they are, and, correct - you havenít  :)
No expense spared in pursuit of a bargain ;)

mike knipe

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Re: Leave them to die!
« Reply #14 on: 21:19:29, 07/08/17 »
The "leave them to die" philosophy just doesn't work in a society mainly driven by reason and, even, compassion. If you apply it to other fields - e.g. driving, somebody would have to make that judgement. Did the driver who just drove his car into a telegraph pole do it because he was being stupid? What about his passengers? Do we rescue the passengers but leave the driver to bleed to death, explaining to him as he soaks the undergrowth with his lifeblood, that it's probably his own fault? Do we apply it to anybody having any kind of  accident who's a bit drunk? Nobody is qualified to make the judgement and everybody makes mistakes. The bloke who made the comment in the first place is a classic troll - he's making an outrageous statement in the expectation of getting exactly this kind of reaction
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