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Main Boards => General Walking Discussion => Topic started by: AFANASIEW on 20:15:35, 11/01/18

Title: Pack weight for treks
Post by: AFANASIEW on 20:15:35, 11/01/18
Advice please. I read recently what seemed a sensible word of caution that you should not carry more than 20% of your body weight on a trek. I'm planning to do LEJOG so am quite keen to get this right from the outset. My question is: do you include the clothes you're wearing and the items in your pockets when calculating pack weight?
The answer might seem obvious - you're not actually carrying this stuff in your backpack, after all. On the other hand, you probably weigh yourself wearing very little, so anything extra forms part of the 20%, surely?
How do you calculate it?
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: johhnyp on 20:56:57, 11/01/18
I weigh just over 100kgs and I certainly wouldn't contemplate carting 20 kgs or anything close to it on a walk like that O0
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: AFANASIEW on 21:15:58, 11/01/18
johhnyp, I once tried doing the Pennine Way with 93lbs on my back when still a sprightly 12 stone. It didn't work - I only got as far as Hebden Bridge.
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: fernman on 23:02:56, 11/01/18
Whoever came up with that 20% figure must have been a big, strong man!
I've just done some calculations which show that my pack weight is only two thirds of 20% of my body weight (which makes it...um...er...I'll let you work that out).
Even if you added the weight of my clothing and contents of pockets, plus threw in my boots for good measure, and why not my walking poles too, I'm sure it still wouldn't be near that 20% firgure.
Forget about calculations, just concentrate on only taking the essentials, and making those the very lightest you can obtain.
You'll know the difference when you pick your pack up easily and walk off as if it's part of you, rather than struggling to lift it off the ground, staggering as you get your arms into the straps, and then feeling as though your legs are compressing and your feet are sinking an inch into the tarmac as you take your first few steps.
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: AFANASIEW on 23:19:31, 11/01/18
Fernman, thanks, but I'm still fit enough to regard 36 lbs as quite manageable. The thing is, if I exclude boots and the clothes I'm wearing, plus penknife, wallet etc, then I can remain within the 20%. If not, I have to ditch things like waterproof trousers and gaiters. Bearing in mind I need to take tent, sleeping bag, stove etc.
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: jimbob on 00:09:24, 12/01/18
One of the things about a long walk ,to me , is the realisation of just how little we actually need to survive.

The advice given to me in this forum was invaluable. Concentrate on the big three. Rucksack, sleeping gear and shelter. Lighten them as much as you can afford to. Then work out what you do not need. For example Gunwharfman showed me that I really did not need cooking gear as there are usually plenty of places to get a hot meal on all the UK LDWs . I now carry energy bars. (Oh and chocolate :D ) What a weight saving that is. 

Save as much weight as you can. Your back, hips, knees and feet will thank you in later life when you are not so fit.
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: sussamb on 06:45:47, 12/01/18
Fernman, thanks, but I'm still fit enough to regard 36 lbs as quite manageable. The thing is, if I exclude boots and the clothes I'm wearing, plus penknife, wallet etc, then I can remain within the 20%. If not, I have to ditch things like waterproof trousers and gaiters. Bearing in mind I need to take tent, sleeping bag, stove etc.

Stop fussing about 20%.  Take what you want if you feel you can carry it but beware, what may appear doable on a day trip may cause issues on multi-day trips. I'd be aiming to carry the bare minimum.  You'll enjoy the walk more, but I certainly wouldn't be ditching waterproof trousers and gaiters, but that's me.
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: sparnel on 08:11:33, 12/01/18
I did LeJog and carried no more than 22lbs........whatever that is in kilos. Forget packing things 'just in case'. You don't need food.........there are plenty of options en route.   I think it would be possible to do this walk carrying everything you need
in pockets - i.e. no rucksack.  I'm sure Gunwharfman will agree. Reg is an expert on carrying nothing!

Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: AFANASIEW on 08:37:31, 12/01/18
Jim Bob, sound advice, thanks but, at 64 some would say that I'm already in later life! Not sure about getting a coffee whenever needed (ProPlus tabs just ain't the same), and will want to camp in north Scotland en route. Also I want to average 18 miles per day and sometimes there aren't pubs and shops in the right places to maintain that average.
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: AFANASIEW on 08:40:46, 12/01/18
Sparnel,  respect. That's the weight I carried on the Pennine Way in 2015, but with no camping.
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: AFANASIEW on 08:47:59, 12/01/18
Sussamb, thanks. I shall take precisely what I want - e. g. the Charter hat is a must - but am using the 20% as a rough guide to discourage excess. I'll be testing the kit this year on the south side of the SWCP,  Land's End to Lyme Regis.
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: tonyk on 10:22:16, 12/01/18
 You carry what you need to carry at the time.On a long distance walk pack weight fluctuates as supplies are used up and then restocked.Two days food or half rations if there are no shops should be the norm.Train your body to function on fewer calories rather than carrying half of Tesco on your back.
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: Islandplodder on 10:31:27, 12/01/18

I don't camp, but have got my packweight for LDPs down under 10lbs + food, water and the weight of the rucksack. 
So this summer I knocked another 2lbs off the total load by buying a much lighter rucksack.
If I tried to carry 20% of my bodyweight I'd be even slower, miserable, and probably finish off my aging knees!
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: Owen on 10:32:50, 12/01/18
, but I'm still fit enough to regard 36 lbs as quite manageable.


What are you carrying to make your pack 36 lbs (16.5kg)? That's the sort of weight I would be carrying for two weeks away in the wilderness, including all my food and gas.
LEJOG isn't in a wilderness it goes through villages and towns. These generally have shops, so you only need enough food for one or two days at any time. By re-supplying on route like this you should be able to half the weight your carrying.
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: NeilC on 11:05:32, 12/01/18
I don't get the 20% thing. I can see a % figure helping a bit when comparing men to women to children but it makes little sense man to man. It doesn't take into account how much of that weight is muscle or fitness levels etc. Over long distances, being a big strapping bloke doesn't help but rather can be a hindrance for endurance.
Just look at the elite soldiers - little wirey guys and they can carry more weight for longer than any 6'4" 17 stone muscleman.


I'd say if carrying full camping gear, you defo want it under 10KG (including everything except food and water) and that isn't hard even on a reasonable budget. Most of my kit is pretty cheap - £60 rucksack, tent cost £80, stove under a fiver - you get the idea. And even my pack-weight is only about 8KG which is about 8% of my weight right now.


Food and water can make a big difference and if you're walking over deserts then you could easily be doubling it. But with the LEJOG - you're gonna be able to restock most days, so why carry loads?


For books get a kindle and consider getting yourself a solar panel to attach to your rucksack for recharging a portable charger. There are also chargers that use standard batteries. Of course if you're gonna stay in B&Bs then you don't even need to worry about that. I wouldn't be carrying a month's worth of paperbacks!
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: sussamb on 11:33:42, 12/01/18
Jim Bob, sound advice, thanks but, at 64 some would say that I'm already in later life! Not sure about getting a coffee whenever needed (ProPlus tabs just ain't the same), and will want to camp in north Scotland en route. Also I want to average 18 miles per day and sometimes there aren't pubs and shops in the right places to maintain that average.


I did the PW for my second time this year at 65.  Started with a pack weight of 17 kgs mainly due to special self heating food packs.  Finished nearer to 10kgs but I'm the first to admit I carry more than I really need to.  As you're doing lejog take the advice above and cut down as much as possible.
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: AFANASIEW on 11:45:15, 12/01/18
Good point, NeilC, about differential carrying capacity. I came across this (https://www.gotscience.org/2014/10/hikers-best-backpack-weight/) item which kinda confirms your view. Using that calculation, I could carry up to 41lbs, but the weight of opinion seems to lean heavily (!) towards a much lighter load. Still, gotta have music in the shape of a tiny mp3 player so as not to use up my phone, on which I'll be using Viewranger. Being a minimalist is hard!
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: Stube on 12:09:40, 12/01/18
I did the PW when I was 64 and camped all the way. My pack base weight was about 10kg including fuel, sticks & solarcharger. Water (travel tap), food & maps/guidebooks added perhaps another 5kg (I always carry too much food particularly snacks).

A kindle wasn't an option for guidebooks at the time - but is certainly a good idea.

If you are carryring waterproof trousers, then I would regard gaiters as superfluous before Scotland - you'll not be wading through heather since most of the PW is flagged across the moors these days. And you certainly don't need them in southern England.

Use the Post Office's Poste Restrante service to send stuff uptrail and save weight.

I find relying on Pubs / village shops a very risky strategy - unless you are willing to make long detours. I have found that outside major tourist centres, about 50% were closed when I passed them - either permanently or wrong day or time. It is particularly difficult to get breakfast - something I find essential.

Most of my walking is off the beaten track of National Trails on lesser known LDPs.
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: Rather be walking on 12:39:58, 12/01/18
My maximum rucksack weight is 8kgs the avg is 6-7kgs that's including tent, sleeping bag, stove, cook stuff etc.
I've walked the South Down Way (camping) with 4kgs rucksack, I didn't have a change of clothes, just spare socks. It was only 4 days and only myself for company ;D
People seem to carry loads of stuff they don't need.
After 46 years I have it down to a fine art.

I was once told by a my scout leader back in the 1960's, when you come back from your first trip make two piles, one of the stuff you used and one of stuff you didn't and repeat.

Jon.   
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: Owen on 12:42:40, 12/01/18
Good point, NeilC, about differential carrying capacity. I came across this (https://www.gotscience.org/2014/10/hikers-best-backpack-weight/) item which kinda confirms your view. Using that calculation, I could carry up to 41lbs, but the weight of opinion seems to lean heavily (!) towards a much lighter load.


That article is fine in principal but of no use what so ever in the real world. Knowing what the maximum weight you could carry tells you absolutely nothing about what you'd be comfortable carrying day after day.
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: Requiem on 12:52:09, 12/01/18
If I'm travelling Far and Remote (which tbh these days is the PW) I always Overpack Food and Underpack clothes. Clothes will remain clothes even if they smell sweaty and get a bit muddy whereas theres nothing more miserable than waking in a tent on a cold morning on the Fell with little to eat and little prospect of finding somewhere to get some. The advent of cars, Tesco delivery and shrinking village life means that long distance paths will never have enough places to buy supplies so I'll always take lightweight water-reconstituted food with me for a one meal a day hit - and if theres a luxury of a cafe, a shop or a pub then I'll stock up.
I always take a water filter - walking hungry is often necessary, walking thirsty is stupidity  O0


I used to stockpile my old, nearly-knackered t-shirts and pants etc for long distance routes so I could just bin them when I'd worn them - these days sports-direct sell stuff so cheap and of a decent enough quality for hiking that you can squeeze them down and they're light enough to sit in the bottom of your rucksack until you can wash them out in the shower, and they dry quickly on a drying-room peg. Overclothes I spend more money on for the warmth, but again they stay warm when wet and are stupidly light compared to how they used to be.


Electronics-wise, I spend as much as I can on this stuff for regular use so when I need it for long distances it performs well - A top Android phone will usually take the best pics (no need for a camera so less weight) and will have the best battery (less need for a backup battery) and will perform other tasks quite well (music player, GPS, ViewRanger, nudey pics ::) , telly)


Good modern gear as above will repel water better, dry quicker and most importantly STAY WARM when wet


And finally. Most importantly. Marry someone who doesn't mind your daft hobbys and pastimes!! Having a partner willing to bundle the Labradors and a weeks provisions into the back of the car and then drive out 120 miles to drop it off at a particular road corner on a particular bit of moorland is a real benefit.


Roy
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: fernman on 12:54:03, 12/01/18
For books get a kindle and consider getting yourself a solar panel to attach to your rucksack for recharging a portable charger. There are also chargers that use standard batteries. Of course if you're gonna stay in B&Bs then you don't even need to worry about that. I wouldn't be carrying a month's worth of paperbacks!

Much as I love books and reading, I won't be carrying one any more because I simply never opened the ones I carried on my last two trips, while on the trip previous to themI only read a few pages of the book I carried .
I always used to read a bit during and just after my lunch stop, but these days I'm happy to just sit and admire the landscape, while I also guiltily feel I should be getting on with the walk instead of spending time sitting on my backside with my nose in a book.
My overnight wild camping is usually timed so that it is just beginning to get dark as I finish my dinner, after which I used to bed down and read for anything up to an hour. Maybe it's an age thing, but I find it too uncomfortable now and I'm quite content to go to sleep early. Sometimes I find a good pitch early, and then there's an hour or an hour-and-a-half to kill; this would be a good time to read, but after the day's exertions it is also a good time to lay down and have a nap.
So, that will be a few more grammes weight saved!
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: AFANASIEW on 13:25:42, 12/01/18
Dismissed the heavyweight Kindle idea - I'll be too busy acting out Don Quixote to bother reading it again. But I am becoming self conscious about my packing list. Got a Wild Country Hoolie 2 tent for a bit of space for the pack. (My ultra-lightweight tent back in the 1980s failed to survive a drunken night in Germany!) Got an Endor Forest sleeping bag plus silk liner and two mats - a foam one in an attempt to prevent the lightweight inflatable from being punctured and as backup if it does. There's the Jetboil. And I want to take the Haglof softshell to use as a midlayer if necessary under the Lhotse jacket. The gaiters are because I got very wet and cold on both Ben Nevis and Scafell Pike when the rain ran off waterproof trousers straight into boots!
Still looking for a backpack and welcome suggestions. I'm liking the look of the Jack Wolfskin Denali.


Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: Islandplodder on 15:05:57, 12/01/18

I use paramo walking trousers which are waterproof (and I find them very comfortable) which means I don't have to carry separate waterproof trousers.  They dry very quickly as well, if you get the urge to give them a rinse occasionally!
Using the Poste Restante service to send stuff ahead (fresh socks, maps etc) also helps a lot. 40 years ago I remember putting a package of spare clothes on the train and catching them up in Fort William a few days later, but I don't suppose they let you do that now.
I usually do LDPs with a friend, and the first few we did we emptied our packs out before we set off, and each went through the other's stuff chucking the  inessentials out.  We had to justify each bit that went back in.
Similar to putting stuff aside you didn't use last time.
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: AFANASIEW on 16:26:47, 12/01/18
Stube's experience of shops and pubs being unreliable chimes with my own - try checking online whether village x-bury or y-ham has a shop and whether it's still open!
I too dislike walking without a reasonable breakfast inside me - I get too grouchy and niggly to enjoy the views.
The idea of using poste restante is a familiar one I've used for maps in the past and plan to use for dry food rations this time.
Islandplodder, I'll be wearing lightweight shorts for the most part.
Right, thanks to all for your contributions. You've inspired me to go through my packing list challenging each item. Presumably the unused principle doesn't work for the first aid kit, though.

Tony
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: NeilC on 16:30:21, 12/01/18
Much as I love books and reading, I won't be carrying one any more because I simply never opened the ones I carried on my last two trips, while on the trip previous to themI only read a few pages of the book I carried .
I always used to read a bit during and just after my lunch stop, but these days I'm happy to just sit and admire the landscape, while I also guiltily feel I should be getting on with the walk instead of spending time sitting on my backside with my nose in a book.
My overnight wild camping is usually timed so that it is just beginning to get dark as I finish my dinner, after which I used to bed down and read for anything up to an hour. Maybe it's an age thing, but I find it too uncomfortable now and I'm quite content to go to sleep early. Sometimes I find a good pitch early, and then there's an hour or an hour-and-a-half to kill; this would be a good time to read, but after the day's exertions it is also a good time to lay down and have a nap.
So, that will be a few more grammes weight saved!


I don't usually bother with a kindle other than winter. As you say, with daylight, there's plenty to look at. But this time of year it's getting dark at 5 and you can be alone in a small tent for about 13+ hours of darkness. I find some form of entertain is required. I'm not the meditative type. Audiobooks on the phone are good for me.
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: Islandplodder on 16:32:09, 12/01/18

Good luck with LEJoG.
I quite envy you.  I've been hankering after doing it since reading John Hillaby 40 odd years ago.
It would be good to hear how it went.
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: AFANASIEW on 17:39:02, 12/01/18
Thank you.
For anyone who may be interested, here's my account (https://whiteacorns.wordpress.com/) of tackling the Pennine Way in 2015. The blog has lain fallow for a while, but I'll shortly take up tools again to give an account of preparations for both the SWCP and LEJOG.
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: Stube on 19:14:49, 12/01/18
Quote
l... and two mats - a foam one in an attempt to prevent the lightweight inflatable from being punctured and as backup if it does. There's the Jetboil.  ....
The gaiters are because I got very wet and cold on both Ben Nevis and Scafell Pike when the rain ran off waterproof trousers straight into boots!

I've used a lightweight self-inflating mat for years and never punctured it, it's probably lighter than an airbed and foam mat combo and certainly less space. A self-inflating mat still provides some insulation/comfort even if flat.

The weight penalty of a Jetboil is not offset by its greater efficency provided you can get fuel every 7/10 days - generally possible in the UK.

All my walking trousers (whether waterproof or not) are a little on the long side and sit over the socks and boots (think spats). Water just bypasses the socks and boot tops straight to the ground.

BTW I always walk in zip-offs so I can convert them to shorts whenever possible! They have the further advantage that generally you only need the wash the leg bits to remain presentable.

FYI The stretch between Garrigill and Alston is a tick hotspot and the locals avoid walking in shorts.
 
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: AFANASIEW on 20:01:46, 12/01/18
Stube, it's a bit late for that advice. I remember the midges as I sat on the bench outside the church in Garrigill to re-fuel, at which point I was assailed by memories of a miserably sodden night at the George and Dragon thirty-odd years before. No-one had told me about the ticks, so I ventured forth with naked calves and, guess what? My tick-removal tool is still unused. Retrospective 'Phew!'
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: sussamb on 20:21:12, 12/01/18
Thank you.
For anyone who may be interested, here's my account (https://whiteacorns.wordpress.com/) of tackling the Pennine Way in 2015. The blog has lain fallow for a while, but I'll shortly take up tools again to give an account of preparations for both the SWCP and LEJOG.


Just spent an enjoyable 40 minutes reading your blog, brought back memories of last May/June  O0
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: mike knipe on 21:37:39, 12/01/18
I seem to average about 13 kg which  includes about 3 days scoff. This seems to hold good for the Pennine Way, various made-up routes and the TGO challenge. I have a fairly heavy tent - Hilleberg Akto which is 1.9 kg, but seems to be bombproof and quite roomy, and, if I have the dog with me (not allowed on the TGO chally), it adds a couple of kgs - mainly the dog's bed which is an old fowks woolly comfort thing and an old down jacket . The dog, though , carries his own food, collapsible bowls, security thingy  and so on.
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: Doddy on 23:09:00, 13/01/18

I enjoyed your account on the PW- brought back memories.
I have done the SWCP you will enjoy it.
Enjoy your hikes
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: AFANASIEW on 08:30:13, 14/01/18
Interesting that you camped wild, Doddy. What did you do for water? Did you ever pay the landowners?
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: sparnel on 09:14:37, 14/01/18
Islandplodder..........it was John Hillaby's book Journey Through Britain which inspired me to do my LeJog in 2005.
Still think it is a masterpiece!  (Sorry for moving off subject!)
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: Doddy on 15:57:16, 14/01/18

I try to be considerate and[/color]  
camp late and leave early and most of the time out of site of properties so I never have the opportunity to ask for permission therefore I have never paid. I like woodland camps and will venture off a trail a little to find one. I observe a headlight curfew so avoid being spotted from distance. I camp at least a couple of miles from villages so avoiding dog walkers who can phone a farmer friend to tell them they have someone on their land .All this seems a lot to think about but it is second nature now.
I am able to filter and/or treat water but most of the time ask in pubs and cafes to fill my Platypus; have bought some on occasions.
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: Welsh Rambler on 21:12:08, 24/01/18
Islandplodder..........it was John Hillaby's book Journey Through Britain which inspired me to do my LeJog in 2005.
Still think it is a masterpiece!  (Sorry for moving off subject!)
Thanks sparnel for this reference, I got the book off Amazon for £0.02 plus P&P and it is a cracking read. It's one of those books that I say 'I'll just read to the end of this chapter' and then read another chapter and another  :)


Regards Keith
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: AFANASIEW on 20:02:11, 29/01/18
As a footnote, following the useful advice in response to my query, for which many thanks, I've bought a different rucksack, tent and sleeping bag to give a combined saving of 2.6Kg and brought my pack weight down to around 13.5Kg including water and rations. I'll be describing the kit choices (and mistakes) I've made in my next blog (https://whiteacorns.wordpress.com/2018/01/29/long-distance-plans/).
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: gunwharfman on 14:05:33, 30/01/18
Nice one Doddy, thats the way to do it.  I would pay, if asked and if there were facilities on offer, but just for a 6' x 4' piece of flat ground, hopefully with the luxury of grass as well, no thanks. As for weight, I've never really bothered to find out. I've honed my pack down to 'easy to carry' and thats all I worry about these days. I could lower the pack weight further but I would then have to make new purchases which I don't want to do.
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: fernman on 14:28:16, 30/01/18
I could lower the pack weight further but I would then have to make new purchases which I don't want to do.

A man after my own heart! I could halve the weight of my thermals, used more for sleepwear than anything else, but they are comfortable and efficient, the devil I know, whereas new ones of uncertain performance would cost me around £70, with a weight saving of about £10 an ounce!
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: AFANASIEW on 16:26:39, 30/01/18
Maybe the most effective weight reduction comes from cutting back on beer and pies! I lost 3 stones, equivalent to more than a backpack, in the year before doing the PW, making things a whole lot easier on the knees.
Title: Re: Pack weight for treks
Post by: AFANASIEW on 12:57:29, 01/02/18
Here's my provisional packing list (https://whiteacorns.wordpress.com/2018/01/31/packing-list-for-the-swcp/) for the SWCP and maybe LEJOG too, if it all works out. I've bought alternative, lighter items and cut out a fair bit of stuff - any suggestions for how I can further reduce it?
Apologies, the tabular list doesn't currently work on mobile devices - well, on my android, at least.