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Main Boards => General Walking Discussion => Topic started by: BuzyG on 20:20:22, 25/08/20

Title: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: BuzyG on 20:20:22, 25/08/20

As you may no the Government intend to make Trespass into a criminal offence. Currently it is a civil offence, which is a very different thing.


If you feel this is a bad idea then there is a petition linked bellow where you can express your vote. I will say no more here it;s still a free country after all.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300139 (https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300139)

Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: Dread on 20:29:39, 25/08/20
Thanks BuzyG. Signed. Hopefully they will rethink this.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: richardh1905 on 20:42:05, 25/08/20
/signed
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: Apache on 20:50:14, 25/08/20
I have mixed feelings about this. The intent is to speed up the removal of illegal encampments on public spaces in particular. Of course it could be used negatively by landowners against walkers who get lost.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: ninthace on 20:53:04, 25/08/20
I believe the intent of this legislation was to make it easier to prevent travellers setting up sites where they are not wanted, e.g. village greens, playing fields and car parks.  The probem is framing it without appearing "racist" so it has become more catch all than it was meant to be.
Edit:  You just beat me Apache.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: BuzyG on 21:49:15, 25/08/20
I believe the intent of this legislation was to make it easier to prevent travellers setting up sites where they are not wanted, e.g. village greens, playing fields and car parks.  The probem is framing it without appearing "racist" so it has become more catch all than it was meant to be.
Edit:  You just beat me Apache.
I was fully aware of the way it has been set out. Whatever the intent the effect will be to make Trespass illegal for all of us.  Wondering off a RoW will be a criminal offence. If there are those of us who think it should be a criminal offence that's fair enough.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: fatmanwalking on 22:05:08, 25/08/20
thanks, signed.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: GnP on 22:11:46, 25/08/20
 O0 O0
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: ninthace on 22:13:32, 25/08/20
I was fully aware of the way it has been set out. Whatever the intent the effect will be to make Trespass illegal for all of us.  Wondering off a RoW will be a criminal offence. If there are those of us who think it should be a criminal offence that's fair enough.
I appreciate that but whether it would work that way in reality is up for discussion.  Will straying off the ROW ever really be an issue?  You would need a member of the constabulary to catch you at it and decide that it was a deliberate act that merited an arrest rather or warning, rather than an honest mistake.  If walkers started to fall victim to the act in significant numbers it may bring into focus the state of the Definitive Map and the need for improved access to the countryside.  Indeed this petition might have been the catalyst for such a discussion if we were in slower news times.


I am more concerned that it could be used for other purposes rather the intended purpose of dealing with travellers or even for harassing hikers.  For example, people attending a peaceful demonstration anywhere other than on a public highway would be liable to arrest for trespass.  It is also a retrograde step in the progress towards an English version of the Scottish access laws.  It is for this reason that I would sign.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: jimbob on 22:14:20, 25/08/20
Signed.
 O0
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: Mel on 22:54:15, 25/08/20
Has anyone read the “Government responded / read the full response” link underneath the petition?
 
Amongst other things, it says:
 
“Such measures would not affect ramblers, the right to roam or rights of way. Instead, measures could be applied in specific circumstances relating to trespass with intent to reside. ”
 
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: fatmanwalking on 23:18:10, 25/08/20
Many people like to sneakily camp while out. I definitely hope to in the future. That's why I signed it just in case it made that even more difficult than it already is in the UK. Besides not a complete fan of eroding rights.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: pdstsp on 07:50:12, 26/08/20
Signed. Don't understand why anyone who walks in the countryside wouldn't sign this.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: Apache on 07:55:29, 26/08/20
Signed. Don't understand why anyone who walks in the countryside wouldn't sign this.




As I said mixed feelings.



https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/travellers-leave-pickering-park-what-1847522
https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/travellers-garbage-westfield-sports-goole-1882109

Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: richardh1905 on 08:18:05, 26/08/20

As I said mixed feelings.


Sledgehammer to crack a nut, though. Unless the legislation is very carefully worded, it could impact upon those not looking to set up a semi permanent encampment.
If nothing else, a strong response to this petition will send a strong message to the government about the legitimate concerns of countryside users, and I urge everyone to sign on that basis alone.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: ninthace on 08:19:00, 26/08/20
Many people like to sneakily camp while out. I definitely hope to in the future. That's why I signed it just in case it made that even more difficult than it already is in the UK. Besides not a complete fan of eroding rights.
I see what you mean but I am not sure Trespasss is a right.  Someone can already be taken to court for it.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: WhitstableDave on 08:42:14, 26/08/20
I've read the Government's response and I support making intentional trespass a criminal offence, so I won't be signing the petition.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: pdstsp on 09:17:51, 26/08/20

Sledgehammer to crack a nut, though. Unless the legislation is very carefully worded, it could impact upon those not looking to set up a semi permanent encampment.
If nothing else, a strong response to this petition will send a strong message to the government about the legitimate concerns of countryside users, and I urge everyone to sign on that basis alone.


Well put.  And current legislation is generally very far from being well worded.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: pdstsp on 09:18:48, 26/08/20
I've read the Government's response and I support making intentional trespass a criminal offence, so I won't be signing the petition.


On this basis Barewirewalker will be spending a lot of time in the clink.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: Birdman on 09:41:24, 26/08/20
Signed


I see the required signatures are almost reached :)
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: barewirewalker on 10:17:18, 26/08/20
Sledgehammer to crack a nut
If nothing else, a strong response to this petition will send a strong message to the government about the legitimate concerns of countryside users, and I urge everyone to sign on that basis alone.
Where is the weakness in the case for those against this government proposal. No one has fully exposed the Corruption of the Definitive map and made public the extent landowners thwarted the intention of the 1949 Act that gives us the basic right to share the countryside as much as we do today. Leisure Walking supports the growing Leisure industry, some element of the Scottish Land Reform Act is needed to counterbalance the negative this act will give landowners, who have an embedded opposition to access.

Those, who have signed are wise. Sadly I think that the British Farmers will be the losers in the long run, when public opinion starts to feel the impact arrogant landownership.



On this basis Barewirewalker will be spending a lot of time in the clink.
It seems that I have spent a lot of time avoiding the sort of situation that might get me thrown in clink. But I have had closer contact with the sort of people, who will abuse this additional power. Best thing I ever did, was to get out the sort of farming, where I would have to place my trust in a Landowner.

Looking at your Maps and thinking, "where might I walk to make a better route" will be a dangerous hobby. The fact that this line of thinking could improve our access network and add to the national economy and well being, has hardly been touched on.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: gunwharfman on 11:02:05, 26/08/20
In my experience of life, even if the belief is that's it's only for 'immigrants' or 'travellers' it will eventually be used on everyone else, it just needs the circumstances and the 'right mood' to develop in the minds of those who rule us or aspire to rule us and it will happen. From little acorns, big oak trees grow!
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: gunwharfman on 11:23:50, 26/08/20
Wher I live, half a mile away on Southsea Common we had a group of 'caravan dwellers' just turn up recently and parked for three days on the grass. Then they were gone. No problems as far as I know, just in the minds of other people perhaps?

Anyway, problem solved, the council have placed large rocks along the perimeter of the area. It actually looks good, mum's will love it seeing their little children jumping from rock to rock and it proveds new seating for everyone else as well. OK, a one-off cost, an easy solution, so why do Governments always seem to go for the costly, elaborate and the socially provocative ways of solving a problem? I assume it's their need and desire for power over others and their/our need to be always on the lookout for people that we judge to be 'different' so we can blame them with no conscience problems t0o
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: Birdman on 11:28:20, 26/08/20
If the law is only intended to get rid of the "caravan dwellers", "Travellers", it should be designed as such and not be a blanket "all tresspassing is criminal" type of law.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: barewirewalker on 11:34:25, 26/08/20
I see what you mean but I am not sure Trespasss is a right.  Someone can already be taken to court for it.
Maybe not but at some time in our history the public need to create De Facto ways was recognised. The proof of that is in the 19th century surveys of the Ordnance Surveys. The criminalizing of trespass will block this method of creating new ways, even more so than the difficulties already in place.


The indifference of the walkers to this need is as big an obstacle as the opposition of the occupiers of the countryside. This indifference has resulted in ignorance of the value of an extended access network, therefore the reasons to extend are not available to maximize the arguments that could expose the dangers inherent in this new legislation.

The counter should be a responsibility placed on the occupiers to recognize how their holdings affect the community at large.

Birdman; I think GWM has touched on that. If the empirical dangers of this are not met then the consequences will be far more reaching than the intention of the law is intended.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: GoneWest on 13:41:11, 26/08/20
As you may no the Government intend to make Trespass into a criminal offence. Currently it is a civil offence, which is a very different thing.


If you feel this is a bad idea then there is a petition linked bellow where you can express your vote. I will say no more here it;s still a free country after all.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300139 (https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300139)
Thank you for the link.

I've read the Government's response and I support making intentional trespass a criminal offence, so I won't be signing the petition.

Same here.

Has anyone read the “Government responded / read the full response” link underneath the petition?
 
Amongst other things, it says:
 
“Such measures would not affect ramblers, the right to roam or rights of way. Instead, measures could be applied in specific circumstances relating to trespass with intent to reside. ”
 

Like you, I read the petition, such as it is, and the whole of the government's surprisingly lucid and well-thought-out response. The latter makes it clear, too, that last year's consultation is still under review. When the matter comes before the House, I'm sure our elected representatives will also give it careful and thorough consideration. ;)
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: richardh1905 on 13:58:25, 26/08/20
I do not share your faith in our elected representatives.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: GoneWest on 14:02:42, 26/08/20
I do not share your faith in our elected representatives.

Hence the " ;) ", but parliamentary and electoral reform and the suitability of various people for the jobs they do are not subjects we should even contemplate getting into on this forum :-X
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: gunwharfman on 14:20:19, 26/08/20
I'm sure that part of my view has been shaped by my experience of working in 1000 - 1300 patient and 50-bed ward psychiatric hospitals.
I soon discovered how some people did not want to solve problems, they liked the power of being able to escalate the difficulty and then come down hard which satisfied a violence need in themselves, could in their mind justify their subsequent aggression towards others and loved the power that they had over others.

It happens everywhere, some people want to be in the thick of it whilst others like being an onlooker. Specialists and academics have studied this for a long time so I'm sure that when any legislation to 'control or deter' the public is contemplated not all of there motives are upfront and in the open.

Of course if the expected unemployment a rising number of evictions materalises I wonder how many new people and familes will start to live in caravans? If it happened to me I know that I would, far better than living in a car or on the streets in my view! Of course in my area if you are lucky, you could always live on a boat, which most people I know would find very acceptable.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: GoneWest on 14:35:09, 26/08/20
Of course if the expected unemployment a rising number of evictions materalises I wonder how many new people and familes will start to live in caravans? If it happened to me I know that I would, far better than living in a car or on the streets in my view! Of course in my area if you are lucky, you could always live on a boat, which most people I know would find very acceptable.


I once did live on a narrowboat (a very small one) for pecuniary reasons, though I wasn't completely broke - just decided not to become so. It's not where or how one chooses to live, per se, that's important - to me, anyway - but how one's behaviour affects other people. Live and let live. Too many people nowadays disregard the second part completely.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: windyrigg on 15:00:58, 26/08/20
Signed!
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: April on 18:58:20, 26/08/20
I have signed it but I think I may already have signed it. The petition started in Mar this year. Was it posted on here?  :-\
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: Birdman on 20:09:54, 26/08/20
108,458 signatures

Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: richardh1905 on 07:02:48, 27/08/20
I have signed it but I think I may already have signed it. The petition started in Mar this year. Was it posted on here?  :-\


I don't think that it would allow you to use the same email address twice.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: barewirewalker on 10:53:45, 27/08/20
Has anyone read the “Government responded / read the full response” link underneath the petition?
 
Amongst other things, it says:
 
“Such measures would not affect ramblers, the right to roam or rights of way. Instead, measures could be applied in specific circumstances relating to trespass with intent to reside. ”
Really, if this is truly a Walking Forum, should we not be looking deeper for the connection between the dangers inherent in this proposed legislation and how there is a connection with our freedom of the countryside.

For centuries landowners have been able to manouvre social responsibility away from themselves. GWM reminds us of his family connections with travelers. My family also had a connection as tenant farmers we had to make space and provide employment for travelers. As with this issue and that of access the repeated abrogation of responsibility by those, who hold large areas of our countryside in freehold has not been fully compensated.

These traveling families have split between the traditional and a less socially acceptable off shoot that has caused general public alienation. I experienced the beginning of this in the 1960's, since then the landowners have hived off tenant farmers as well as the historical hospitality for travelers.

All too often the occupiers of our countryside have used the excuse of criminality to limit access, this goes way back to the Lord of the Manor protecting hunting rights.

A bad landowner, who does not respect the wishes of others to share those elements of the countryside outside of food production deserves to be trespassed on.

As with Lostways there is too much false news being used to backup false claims.



Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: GoneWest on 12:01:50, 27/08/20

A bad landowner, who does not respect the wishes of others to share those elements of the countryside outside of food production deserves to be trespassed on.



As a walker who would also like better access to our countryside, I nevertheless feel the need to distance myself from this assertion, which is presented as if trespass were a "human right".

 While I might, myself, dislike some of the laws we have and while I respect the right of others to disagree with me about the proposed changes to this particular one, I cannot accept that someone who is abiding by the law - in however an unfriendly way - should "deserve" to be treated in an unlawful manner by others.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: ninthace on 12:14:12, 27/08/20


As a walker who would also like better access to our countryside, I nevertheless feel the need to distance myself from this assertion, which is presented as if trespass were a "human right".

 While I might, myself, dislike some of the laws we have and while I respect the right of others to disagree with me about the proposed changes to this particular one, I cannot accept that someone who is abiding by the law - in however an unfriendly way - should "deserve" to be treated in an unlawful manner by others.
While grateful for the Mass Trespass of the past, I do not feel promoting confrontation by deliberate trespass will be helpful to the cause of opening up the countryside.  I find myself in agreement with GoneWest.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: WhitstableDave on 12:14:56, 27/08/20
Really, if this is truly a Walking Forum, should we not be looking deeper for the connection between the dangers inherent in this proposed legislation and how there is a connection with our freedom of the countryside.
...

I think you might be making an assumption about why people join a forum about walking. Some will no doubt share your views, but others will not. I'm one of the others.  :)

My primary interest in walking lies in the fitness and health benefits. That doesn't mean that I'm not interested in fauna, flora, views or landscapes, simply that (for me) these aspects of walking are very pleasant bonuses. To illustrate this, I can point to having walked many more miles during the lockdown than I would have done otherwise - because my wife and I bought a treadmill. As a consequence, my fitness has improved over the last several months and I've also taken up running.

I like having aims and targets, which I use partly for motivation and partly to gain a sense of achievemant. I'm interested in distances and speed, but I'm also trying to walk in every part of Kent, so for a few years now I've been working out and walking routes all over the county. Which brings me to my main point...

I use public rights of way and open access land, and that's perfectly sufficient for me. Perhaps I'm just lucky that Kent has more than 4,400 miles of public footpaths, bridleways and byways.

I've never yet felt the need to ignore signs about private land - I'm perfectly happy to clock up my miles exploring the countryside in a non-confrontational manner.  ;)
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: BuzyG on 12:42:32, 27/08/20
I think you might be making an assumption about why people join a forum about walking. Some will no doubt share your views, but others will not. I'm one of the others.  :)

My primary interest in walking lies in the fitness and health benefits. That doesn't mean that I'm not interested in fauna, flora, views or landscapes, simply that (for me) these aspects of walking are very pleasant bonuses. To illustrate this, I can point to having walked many more miles during the lockdown than I would have done otherwise - because my wife and I bought a treadmill. As a consequence, my fitness has improved over the last several months and I've also taken up running.

I like having aims and targets, which I use partly for motivation and partly to gain a sense of achievemant. I'm interested in distances and speed, but I'm also trying to walk in every part of Kent, so for a few years now I've been working out and walking routes all over the county. Which brings me to my main point...

I use public rights of way and open access land, and that's perfectly sufficient for me. Perhaps I'm just lucky that Kent has more than 4,400 miles of public footpaths, bridleways and byways.

I've never yet felt the need to ignore signs about private land - I'm perfectly happy to clock up my miles exploring the countryside in a non-confrontational manner.  ;)


Dave I share much of your view of walking.  My main personal interest in signing. Is that there are many disputed/assumed but not marked.  Row in Devon and Cornwall. Paths that just simply stop, one field short of open access land are typical examples.  I often walk these routes, as do many others and yes I have been challenged by the land owners on a few occasions, as they want to shut them down.  This act would push the balance in their favour on all such paths.  I for one have no wish to land up in court discussing the matter, so would likely stop using them meaning the rest of the marked Row would soon fall out of use too and effectively be lost.

Here is a typical example. Priddacombe on Bodmin moor, SX167769

You will see others in that area too.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: barewirewalker on 12:53:11, 27/08/20
Sadly I live in a county (Shropshire) that blocks the rising number of people, who look for longer routes, walking from the East Anglian coast to the Welsh coast and this is unnecessary on grounds of Agriculture. The reasons are selfish and contrary to the better interest of the rural economy.
In Hereford the landowner, who wrote the 2012 CLA's policy on access owns a large chunk of Offa's Dyke, 10 miles away from the Offa's Dyke path, which misguides knowledge of our history. This hereditary landowner owns land in an area of 11 square miles without RoWs, blocking approach to the only non urban bridge over the River Wye for 20 miles.

Simple use of field margins could open up many miles of waterside, we pay subsidies to encourage spray boundaries, these field margins are often used to encourage game yet, people are kept off them, even when road side ways could offset obviously dangerous road condition, that should be considered under H&S law.

Landowners have been politically pampered for centuries, it is time they faced up to being fully paid up members of the Human race.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: barewirewalker on 13:06:13, 27/08/20


As a walker who would also like better access to our countryside, I nevertheless feel the need to distance myself from this assertion, which is presented as if trespass were a "human right".

 While I might, myself, dislike some of the laws we have and while I respect the right of others to disagree with me about the proposed changes to this particular one, I cannot accept that someone who is abiding by the law - in however an unfriendly way - should "deserve" to be treated in an unlawful manner by others.
But trespass is not illegal, doing damage is, that is why it is a civil disagreement. There is a footpath near Much Wenlock that clearly leads to a dangerous road crossing. The only sensible way to cross this dangerous road is quite clear, there is a ride and gate to a direct road crossing, yet the owner of the land makes obvious obstruction to the safer alternative.
In my view this landowner is breaking H&S law, because every time he puts up barbed wire He should do a safety assessment.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: WhitstableDave on 18:52:50, 27/08/20
I'm sure my questions will be thought naive, but I have to ask...

Where is the line?

My wife and I own an average house with an average-sized garden. Are we landowners? If not, then how much land would we need to own to become landowners? We've got a front lawn. If someone pitches a tent on it and wild camps on our property, but causes no damage, could they be arrested or would I have to visit my solicitor to begin a civil action for trespass?

I've got lots more questions, but for now I'd be happy just to know where the line is...
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: barewirewalker on 19:39:08, 27/08/20
I also own my own property, free of mortgage, but my 30 or so square yards is hardly going to impact of the 5yds of countryside I border. Yet I managed 900 acres of farm land that had been tenanted as far back as my great grandfathers marriage. I still have to consider if it necessary for the postman to reach my front door and provide a safe way when it is iced.

Harry Cotterell farms 2000 acres of Herefordshire, within is an important historical section of Offa's Dyke, yet he writes, authoritatively that landowners are best placed to decide, who has access to their land. His section of Offa's Dyke remains in private domain.

For as long as I have discussed access matters with farmers, the old hack argument that I should equate my garden with their occupation, has been the central core of the logic. If you start to evaluate the terrain, features and infrastructure beyond the boundaries of a particular area of 'private land' reasons become apparent for a need to cross, visit or utilize for safety reasons, which do not impinge on the agricultural use. This is the part of land, as an asset, that should be recognized as having communal value.


I can suggest several special places on the land I used to farm that should be part of public access, they are now in the process of being trashed by land managers blind to their potential.

Should the current owner of a house that was built in a special location share, should the owner of 5000 acres be aware why people might or even need to cross his land? Would the sharing of a bridge over a motorway or railway line link cross country ways that could grow in major lines of trekking?

Where is the line? Historic immorality in selfish acquisition has perhaps left a jagged line, where the boundaries need to be explored with a new understanding.
 
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: WhitstableDave on 20:11:10, 27/08/20
Sorry, but I'm none the wiser.

I gather the line is somewhere between the size of our plot of land and someone else's bigger plot of land.

I'd like it to be illegal for someone to camp on our front lawn without permission, but since I don't know where the line is then I'll have to accept that it should be illegal for people to camp on other people's property without permission too - however big it is.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: gunwharfman on 20:20:41, 27/08/20
Re: Landowners

I personally would interpret this word as a 'code' which will tell someone that you may be talking to if you are "one of us" or "not one of us.'

It the same about tea/dinner/supper, toilet/bathroom/loo or lounge/sitting room,/drawing room etc, all clues to let someone, or for that matter for you to know if you or they are part of their lifestyle of if someone is part of yours. Words such as these are used to probe as to what layer of sociaty you belong to. Its all very subtle.

I had an experience of this when my son went to Edinburgh University, (or was I suppossed to sat the University of Edinburgh?) whilst at a parents evening I was asked by a parent what my son was 'reading,' I was not asked what my son was 'studying.' Being working class I replied that he was studying Spanish and German, second mistake, I should have said 'Languages' then followed it up by identifying Spanish and German. When I used word 'studying' I gave the game away, he knew that I was not "one of us" and he never spoke to me again.

I was once advised that if I want to identify a book to someone, I should name the author, not the book title, that comes afterwards. So I remember once testing this out and told a 'Mrs Bouguot neighbour' that I 'read' Marx in the 60's. For a short while I was 'in' but then she found out that I wasn't one of the 'in' people because I let myself down with the misuse of other words.

So like you I own my own house and have a postage stamp sized garden (real grass) not paving slabs or decking (that's very ASDA you know!!!) so I'm a landowner.   If you have paving slabs or decking you are not! ::)  :P  :-*
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: barewirewalker on 20:42:54, 27/08/20
I gather the line is somewhere between the size of our plot of land and someone else's bigger plot of land.

Size is only a small part of understanding how the countryside is compromised by the occupiers, destinations, features and infrastructures are still not fully recognized how they could make up the fabric of a 21st century access network.

Instance, an owner has a private bridge over the M6, his location is bang in the Stone - Stafford gap. The only tract of rural land in the Midland metropolitan build. Should this be shared between leisure users and agriculture?
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: ninthace on 20:54:23, 27/08/20
Size is only a small part of understanding how the countryside is compromised by the occupiers, destinations, features and infrastructures are still not fully recognized how they could make up the fabric of a 21st century access network.

Instance, an owner has a private bridge over the M6, his location is bang in the Stone - Stafford gap. The only tract of rural land in the Midland metropolitan build. Should this be shared between leisure users and agriculture?
Do you mean at SJ 900 267 just south of the tunnel under at SJ 897 270?
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: Mel on 20:55:39, 27/08/20
Is my postie trespassing when he trots up the drive to pop some junk mail through my letterbox.  Or is that classed as littering. 
 
Anyhooo.. back to the petition against criminalising trespass….


https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300139

 

Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: jimbob on 21:02:07, 27/08/20
Is my postie trespassing when he trots up the drive to pop some junk mail through my letterbox.  Or is that classed as littering. 
 
Anyhooo.. back to the petition against criminalising trespass….


https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300139 (https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300139)


O0 O0 O0
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: barewirewalker on 21:19:22, 27/08/20
Do you mean at SJ 900 267 just south of the tunnel under at SJ 897 270?
Yes on bang the nose, perhaps the topic where is should have been discussed is here,  (http://www.walkingforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=40723.0)but that topic raised little controversy, yet the subjects are related. I think the editor saw the connection, more so than the walking fraternity.

Streetmap link for those interested; https://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?x=390050&y=326750&z=0&sv=SJ+900+267&st=5&mapp=map.srf&searchp=ids.srf
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: gunwharfman on 10:05:34, 28/08/20
Sorry, I forgot to mention, I've signed the petition as well. For all of us who have done this, I wonder if we are all now on a Government 'person of interest' list?
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: harland on 10:23:16, 28/08/20
If you really want to get something done then try getting Marcus Rashford or Raheem Sterling involved, better not get Harry Maguire.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: gunwharfman on 10:48:47, 28/08/20
I think Harry Maquire has already 'done' himself!

Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: Andies on 11:59:07, 28/08/20
Signed  O0
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: Andies on 12:04:30, 28/08/20
Sorry, I forgot to mention, I've signed the petition as well. For all of us who have done this, I wonder if we are all now on a Government 'person of interest' list?


Or perhaps a CLA watch list and they're usually armed  :-\
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: GnP on 13:05:17, 28/08/20
Sorry, I forgot to mention, I've signed the petition as well. For all of us who have done this, I wonder if we are all now on a Government 'person of interest' list?
Swat teams are on their way..to my place also . ???
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: gunwharfman on 13:24:17, 28/08/20
Maybe our list of names will come out soon and we will be labelled as 'mutants,' or perhaps we'll get an even better status and be blamed for this Government's failings before they think of other groups of people to nobble?  :)
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: Whitby Mick on 06:43:58, 29/08/20
As you may no the Government intend to make Trespass into a criminal offence. Currently it is a civil offence, which is a very different thing.


If you feel this is a bad idea then there is a petition linked bellow where you can express your vote. I will say no more here it;s still a free country after all.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300139 (https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300139)
Done
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: barewirewalker on 09:51:10, 29/08/20
I have signed, with careful thought and not as a knee jerk reaction as some might think.

I have also used the link to my MP to explain my reasoning for signing.

Quote
Dear Daniel,
 
I have just signed the petition against criminalizing trespass. I sent you a letter regarding the proposed private bridge over the NW relief road, if you had made any effort to understand the reasoning and the landowners historical actions that this bridge could be a valuable asset to the commercial and social benefit of the town, then you would understand the inherent dangers in this change to the law. It is too easy for landowners to restrict access to our countryside. They corrupted the Definitive Map of Shropshire, so that the pathways of Shropshire cannot contribute to the social and economic well being of the county that the modern day direction of leisure walking is heading. You may think that I am of a political different to yours, but I can name many of the people, who were active in your original selection to represent us, being a close friend of them.
 
Yours Sincereley,
 
Signed. AKA Barewirewalker.
 
P.S. I have trespassed over many acres of Shropshire over more that 65 years, I know what the landowners of Shropshire and other counties would like to keep to themselves, and the proof that these assets could be contributing many millions to the Shropshire rural economy is waiting to be discovered is evident from the effects of the 2003 Scottish Land Reform Act.

So perhaps I have put myself a little higher on someones hit list. My next scam call from MI5 might actually be real. Should I tell how a prominent member of the CLA manipulated the Chairmanship of Shropshire Great Outdoors Liaison Group, will this affect how understandig Shropshire's lostways could be of great benefit to the county.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: BuzyG on 01:03:05, 30/08/20
So I just have to ask. What the heck his the CLA? Or do I need to be read in before anyone can tell me.  ;)
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: pauldawes on 06:33:59, 30/08/20
So I just have to ask. What the heck his the CLA? Or do I need to be read in before anyone can tell me.  ;)


Country Landowners Association....your camouflage jacket must be working well if one of their member’s hasn’t apprehended you yet on one of your frequent rambles.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: barewirewalker on 10:02:05, 30/08/20
It is the principle lobby group that represents the old fashioned attitude to landownership. It's headquarters is in Grosvenor Square, the name suggests it is owned by the largest landowner in the land, the Duke of Westminster.
Founded in 1912, when the then Liberal government attempted to introduce Land Taxes, this form of tax failed to be established because the 1914-18 war intervened. It continued as a form of upper class, snooty club for the titled and hereditary landowners until the general public started to wake up to certain facts about landownership.
In the 1980-90 loss of hereditary peerage numbers, reduced the veto by numbers in the house of lords and the CLA woke up to the fact that landowners needed a grass roots membership. They started a membership drive aimed at the new landower class of successful tenant farmers, who had bought their own farms of the failed hereditary landowners.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: Andies on 10:42:38, 30/08/20

Country Landowners Association....your camouflage jacket must be working well if one of their member’s hasn’t apprehended you yet on one of your frequent rambles.
Usually easily identified by their greeting:" can I help you?" and thereafter followed by "you're trespassing". ;D

Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: barewirewalker on 11:13:25, 30/08/20
Yet the more dangerous influence is the flawed logic of the 'countryside is a workspace', but we need special dispensation from H&S. Or 'How would you like me trampling over your garden', even though my garden is 2000 acres. It's mine and I don't want to share it.

Why was the CLA 2012 policy on access never open to the public, especially as it was titled a 'Common Sense Approach', perhaps the more discerning reader might  have realised that it is an internal recruiting policy advocating that 'Private Land starts 2m either side of a right of way. Landowners are such superior members of society that there has never has been any mistakes made in access issues and criminality is rife in the common man.


They failed to recognise that the Leisure industry is a growing factor in the national economy, and they believe personal use of the countryside for their leisure pursuits should be paramount and their right.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: ninthace on 14:21:14, 30/08/20
Usually easily identified by their greeting:" can I help you?" and thereafter followed by "you're trespassing". ;D
It has only happened to me once that I can remember - it wasn't the owner but a keeper, and I was!  Far out numbered by the number of greetings, smiles, friendly discussions on the weather and directions/advice about the path.  O0
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: richardh1905 on 18:10:01, 30/08/20
This example of 'how would you like it if someone camped in your garden' is entirely fallacious, the stuff of the Daily Mail. In Scotland this just does not happen.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: jimbob on 18:59:18, 30/08/20
This example of 'how would you like it if someone camped in your garden' is entirely fallacious, the stuff of the Daily Mail. In Scotland this just does not happen.
Well spotted Richard, any cursery glance at the tort of tresspass would show that that circumstance would normally be classed (using simplistic language as the legalese is somewhat tedious) as a nuisance and could be dealt with by the police as a criminal offence.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: harland on 20:55:45, 30/08/20
Part of the Government's response below, although not specific, is clearly to stop "travellers or whatever they like to call themselves" staying on land and leaving their rubbish behind. Consequently I support the proposal and won't be signing.

"As a result, the Government launched a consultation in 2019 to seek views on how the act of trespass, when setting up or residing on an unauthorised encampment could be criminalised, or whether it is preferable to extend the current police powers to direct people away from unauthorised sites. Such measures would not affect ramblers, the right to roam or rights of way. Instead, measures could be applied in specific circumstances relating to trespass with intent to reside."
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: BuzyG on 21:54:57, 30/08/20

Country Landowners Association....your camouflage jacket must be working well if one of their member’s hasn’t apprehended you yet on one of your frequent rambles.
I try to rely on speed.  May need to learn camouflage though, not getting any younger.  ;)
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: tonyk on 22:33:22, 30/08/20


 Instead, measures could be applied in specific circumstances relating to trespass with intent to reside."


 Such as wild camping.In the case of a solo wild camper its unlikely to be enforced by the the police due to lack of resources but gamekeepers and farmers will use more aggressive measures to drive people from their land.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: ninthace on 23:48:51, 30/08/20

 Such as wild camping.In the case of a solo wild camper its unlikely to be enforced by the the police due to lack of resources but gamekeepers and farmers will use more aggressive measures to drive people from their land.
Wild camping, by its very nature is not really intent to reside. It is not allowed in England now except in limited areas.  If you are asked to move on, you must. It mostly works because it either tolerated or undetected. How will that change?
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: jimbob on 00:28:11, 31/08/20

"As a result, the Government launched a consultation in 2019 to seek views on how the act of trespass, when setting up or residing on an unauthorised encampment could be criminalised, or whether it is preferable to extend the current police powers to direct people away from unauthorised sites. Such measures would not affect ramblers, the right to roam or rights of way. Instead, measures could be applied in specific circumstances relating to trespass with intent to reside."
Harland, I do hope you are not confusing this initial" consultation" with the actual act due to be put in front of Parliament. The CLA and other interested parties have had their say during said process, I doubt if many walkers were even informed on how to give their views at this consultation.

Once the paper is in front of parliament it will be to late to start petitions if it does go the CLA way.

Those who cause damage and nuisance can already be dealt with in the criminal courts, no need to change the law for that, so why are they doing so?
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: richardh1905 on 07:35:08, 31/08/20
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/local-isnt-happy-as-boris-johnson-carries-on-camping-z0gn5tkzl
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: richardh1905 on 07:36:25, 31/08/20
I had a look at the so called consultation - it was a complete and utter sham as far as I was concerned as there was no 'do not criminalise' option.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: WhitstableDave on 07:48:37, 31/08/20
I don't see why consultation was needed anyway. The Conservative Manifesto included this promise...

"We will tackle unauthorised traveller camps. We will give the police new powers to arrest and seize the property and vehicles of trespassers who set up unauthorised encampments, in order to protect our communities. We will make intentional trespass a criminal offence, and we will also give councils greater powers within the planning system."

...and a majority of voters gave them a mandate. I must add that I wasn't one of them though!  :)

(If the party I vote for wins, then carries out a promise in their manifesto, I don't see how I could reasonably complain. But surely no one here voted Conservative and has also signed the petition...)
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: richardh1905 on 07:50:02, 31/08/20
As I said, it was a sham, Dave.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: Andies on 18:02:53, 31/08/20
The Ramblers seem pretty concerned about this issue. Their website details their concerns thereon should anyone want to take a look.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: richardh1905 on 07:06:13, 02/09/20
Whilst walking down the Wasdale Road on Saturday evening, we came across a gang of lads setting up camp in several tents amongst the trees by the shore. Drinking, music blaring, barbecue fired up.


Initially I was irritated, but later on I got to thinking about it. They may or may not have been camping illegally, they may or may not leave a mess, but whatever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty'?


And is it right to saddle a bunch of lads having some fun with a criminal record? That would hardly be to the benefit of society.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: richardh1905 on 07:15:32, 02/09/20
The Ramblers seem pretty concerned about this issue. Their website details their concerns thereon should anyone want to take a look.


Thanks for pointing me in the direction of The Ramblers on this, Andies.


Here are some links for those that are interested.


https://www.ramblers.org.uk/news/blogs/2020/march/the-law-on-trespass.aspx
https://www.ramblers.org.uk/policy/england/access/trespass.aspx



Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: pauldawes on 07:19:38, 02/09/20

(If the party I vote for wins, then carries out a promise in their manifesto, I don't see how I could reasonably complain. But surely no one here voted Conservative and has also signed the petition...)


There must be many people who voted for a party without agreeing with everything in the manifesto...indeed  would guess that’s the case for large majority of people. Most certainly in last election...when Brexit determined many people’s vote.


I don’t see why when party wins you then have any moral responsibility (unless you’re a MP) to support those parts of the manifesto you disagree with....or have a responsibility to sit back and do nothing.

Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: WhitstableDave on 08:42:20, 02/09/20

There must be many people who voted for a party without agreeing with everything in the manifesto...indeed  would guess that’s the case for large majority of people. Most certainly in last election...when Brexit determined many people’s vote.

I don’t see why when party wins you then have any moral responsibility (unless you’re a MP) to support those parts of the manifesto you disagree with....or have a responsibility to sit back and do nothing.

I think that those who live under a dictatorship have no responsibility for the actions of the government, whereas in a democracy we all share a moral responsibility for its actions.

Personally, I couldn't bring myself to vote for a party that promised (say) to allow fox-hunting - even if I preferred their position on Brexit. If I did, then I'd find myself arguing against what I'd voted for (amongst other things). I accept that others will have no problem with that however.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: harland on 09:44:30, 02/09/20
Well you would be OK with fox hunting now as the Conservative 2019 manifesto contained a simple statement that a new Tory Government "will make no changes to the Hunting Act". The dropping of the commitment marks the end of a gradual move away from the party's association with fox hunting.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: richardh1905 on 09:57:48, 02/09/20
As an aside, I don't regard 43.6% of the vote as a mandate to do anything in a true democracy.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: harland on 11:23:22, 02/09/20
I don't regard 43.6% of the vote as a mandate to do anything in a true democracy.
So is it a mandate to do nothing?
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: Mel on 13:25:16, 02/09/20

Thought I'd just re-post the link to the petition before the topic is locked for discussing politics.

As you may no the Government intend to make Trespass into a criminal offence. Currently it is a civil offence, which is a very different thing.

If you feel this is a bad idea then there is a petition linked bellow where you can express your vote.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300139 (https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300139)


Deadline for the petition is 5th September for anyone wishing to sign it.



Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: WhitstableDave on 13:42:12, 02/09/20
Thought I'd just re-post the link to the petition before the topic is locked for discussing politics....

I've just read the forum rules again, but I still can't find the one that disallows discussing politics.

I'm just off to have another look at the rules to see if there's one about 'bumping' posts - i.e. re-posting posts simply to re-draw attention to them...  ;)
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: Mel on 14:28:59, 02/09/20
There have been plenty enough locked topics where Chris (the forum’s Admin) has said this forum isn’t the place for heavy political discussion. 
 
Sorry about bumping a current and walking related topic back to the top and attempting to keep it on topic and current until the deadline has passed. 
 
[size=0pt]https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300139[/size]  (https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300139)[/url]
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: WhitstableDave on 16:13:54, 02/09/20
There have been plenty enough locked topics where Chris (the forum’s Admin) has said this forum isn’t the place for heavy political discussion. 

Sorry about bumping a current and walking related topic back to the top and attempting to keep it on topic and current until the deadline has passed. 
 
[size=0pt]https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300139[/size] (https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300139)

You said in Reply #84: "Thought I'd just re-post the link to the petition before the topic is locked for discussing politics."

Discussing politics is not the same as heavy political discussion. I've seen no evidence that topics have been locked for simply discussing politics.

This topic is political in nature. Members have been given a link to a petition, the purpose of which is to express opposition to a plan that was announced in the Conservative Manifesto and which the government is currently considering.

A forum is a place for discussion. Surely any topic posted here (unless it falls foul of the forum rules) is open for discussion and debate?

Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: archaeoroutes on 16:33:51, 02/09/20
music blaring
Hang them, I say!


Seriously, though, why do people feel the need for music outdoors? I have enough problem with teenagers wanting to walk plugged into their headphones, then they get the speakers out in the evening and pollute for everyone else. Can't they just enjoy where they are and what they're doing?
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: ninthace on 16:35:48, 02/09/20
As an aside, I don't regard 43.6% of the vote as a mandate to do anything in a true democracy.
But it would probably get you a parliamentary majority  :)
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: BuzyG on 16:58:16, 02/09/20

Love a debate  O0

and it seems we have a live one here for another few days at least. ;)


https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300139
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: Mel on 17:26:07, 02/09/20
You said in Reply #84: "Thought I'd just re-post the link to the petition before the topic is locked for discussing politics."

Discussing politics is not the same as heavy political discussion. I've seen no evidence that topics have been locked for simply discussing politics.

This topic is political in nature. Members have been given a link to a petition, the purpose of which is to express opposition to a plan that was announced in the Conservative Manifesto and which the government is currently considering.

A forum is a place for discussion. Surely any topic posted here (unless it falls foul of the forum rules) is open for discussion and debate?


Indeed I did Dave.  This was because the original post was regarding a link to a petition which we, as walkers, may wish to sign.
 
Discussing politics -v- heavy political debate isn’t even relevant in the context of the above and I can’t help but think you are splitting hairs or looking for an argument.  Some might call this trolling.
 
Discuss your thoughts on the topic and the impact you think it may have on us as walkers by all means but just be aware that any political discussions on this forum end up “heavy” which is why the topics usually end up locked, with the more antagonistic/accusatory/inflammatory/off topic posts deleted.
 
If you must talk politics, get it in the Hikers Bar under its own heading.
 
The petition:
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/300139
 
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: jimbob on 17:29:03, 02/09/20
Well said Mel.

I totally agree with all your points.


Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: pdstsp on 18:31:42, 02/09/20
Mel - spot on as always.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: tonyk on 23:45:45, 02/09/20
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0HgJIkSIXY
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: richardh1905 on 07:42:22, 03/09/20
Good BMC article on the issue here:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/encampments-and-trespass


PS - thank you for getting the thread back on track, Mel. Note to self - stay out of politics!  :-[
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: BuzyG on 00:12:27, 06/09/20
Thanks all for each of our contributions to the vote and the discussion here.


The pertition is now closed. Just short of 135k votes.  Let's hope those in government are listening.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: barewirewalker on 12:22:03, 06/09/20
I should like to thankyou for bringing this to the attention of the forum. As you were the OP, I was very surprised that you did not know what CLA stood for.

So I just have to ask. What the heck his the CLA? Or do I need to be read in before anyone can tell me.  ;)
It is perhaps unfortunate that many walkers, mountaineers and other outdoor users are not aware of this the aims of this organization and their utterances, I was only privy to them for a short time, when my brother in law got duped into becoming a member and I had the chance to read their monthly rag, Land and Business. this was at the time I was a member of my counties LAF and in a position to witness the influence the landowner lobby had on the this body that later became the Great Outdoors Strategy Group.

Unlike many pressure groups today, who respond to knee jerk responses to public opinion, and quickly lose the attention of the popular press and the public support. The CLA has embedded opposition to sharing the countryside as a core instinct and policy.

I saddens me when discussion that should be aimed for our best interests get frittered away into needless party political alienation's. The landowners of this country are a minority, and a very small one at that, their stated aim is to have Coast 2 Coast membership throughout this land and their national policy document strongly suggest that whittling down the access network is Common Sense.

The National Farmers Union have a job on there hands to conserve membership, from this new demand for revenue that is needed to promote the better production of our food.


Where does the sensible discussion of politics lie in this tangle or do we just ignore it?
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: ninthace on 12:12:10, 14/09/20
Walking up a particularly long and tedious hill yesterday the answer came to me.  Carry a few Jehovah’s Witnesses leaflets and a couple of copies of Watchtower for good measure.  If someone approaches you to tell you that you are trespassing, whip them out and ask them if they have heard the Good News.  They will be off like a shot.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: BuzyG on 23:26:48, 14/09/20
Walking up a particularly long and tedious hill yesterday the answer came to me.  Carry a few Jehovah’s Witnesses leaflets and a couple of copies of Watchtower for good measure.  If someone approaches you to tell you that you are trespassing, whip them out and ask them if they have heard the Good News.  They will be off like a shot.


 ;D Brilliant Idea sir. O0
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: Jac on 07:41:18, 15/09/20
;D
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: barewirewalker on 10:02:13, 15/09/20
Straight from the Manual of the Art of Good Trespass. A slight variation is to pick up a few copies of the Parish Magazine or WI monthly at the village shop prior to walking up the front drive to the local manor, then exiting by the back drive.

Once completing the circuit of the Noss Mayo leisure drive as intended by the original Landscape Designer and owner of a now defunct Hall, I told the then occupier of the Gate house that 'Some local lads had told me it was OK to walk down the redundant drive'. Thus transferring his indignant ire to a fictitious group of lads on by cycles. It was interesting to see how this Victorian landscape artist had engineered breathtaking views to be enjoyed by those privileged to ride the private approach to a manorial dwelling that not longer exists and guarded by a fussy little man, whose location adds to his self importance. Many enjoy the sea views of the Noss Mayo drive without understanding the skill of the full circuit and how it also exploits the inland beauty of that landscape.

It was then a moss covered trail, through an overgrown avenue of trees.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: fernman on 09:32:20, 26/10/20
News today: Two men have been fined £4,000 each for trespass and damage after camping overnight in Coed y Brenin forest near Trawsfynydd without permission.

https://north.wales/news/warning-issued-after-pair-fined-over-4000-each-for-trespass-and-damage-at-gwynedd-beauty-spot-21388.html (https://north.wales/news/warning-issued-after-pair-fined-over-4000-each-for-trespass-and-damage-at-gwynedd-beauty-spot-21388.html)

In the sort of slipshod journalism that seems to be the norm these days, no details are given of the nature of their camping nor of the damage they were said to have caused. One can only wonder what they did to be fined £4k each, however it is a bit worrying for those of us who wild camp.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: Birdman on 09:41:30, 26/10/20
Yes, journalism these days.... This article provides no useful information at all. What does "damage" mean? Have they flattened the grass a little bit with a small tent or have they been cutting down trees for a massive bonfire? Are they real campers or RV folks? Etc.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: ninthace on 09:47:00, 26/10/20
All the reports I could find were cut and paste versions of the same press release.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: BuzyG on 10:21:06, 26/10/20
Unfortunately we are left to assume far too much from that report.  It demonstrates that the law is pretty strong now though.  Hence benefits the current campaign to keep Trespass a civil offence. 


Of course assumption, but they must surely have caused some one reason to take out the action against them.  We can be reasonably certain that they were not simply passing through and camped quietly out of the way for a night.  It would be nice to see a few useful details in the press report though.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: Andies on 11:24:21, 26/10/20
Never let facts get in the way of a good story :D

I suspect the CLA will jump upon this as well :(
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: ninthace on 12:11:12, 26/10/20
If you read the story carefully, they were actually fined for being in breach of the Foresty Act Bylaws.  Perhaps a badly worded headline?
According to
https://naturalresources.wales/about-us/what-we-do/how-we-regulate-you/our-regulatory-responsibilities/offence-response-options/forestry-offences/?lang=en  they do get cross if you fell a tree without permission.
Their policy on Wild Camping can be inferred here:https://naturalresources.wales/about-us/news-and-events/news/open-letter-urges-campers-to-respect-the-welsh-environment-this-bank-holiday-weekend/?lang=en
Basically you must have permission.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: barewirewalker on 12:37:12, 26/10/20
Trust Ninthace to dig out the true slant on this story, it is a sad day when the popular press jump into back up a spurious case with fake news. I have had a good chuckle at these posts as they remind me of a new CLA member of the LAF I served on.

Never let facts get in the way of a good story :D
I suspect the CLA will jump upon this as well :(
Within a few minutes of taking his seat on the forum and making an introduction as not a landowner, but a private consultant to landowner interests. He manage to connect public access with the risk of fungal disease spread in Rhodadendrons. Blinding everyone, not so well blessed as himself with inside knowledge, he referred to the risk as Phytophera, he failed to qualify this further. Leaving me confused that perhaps the CLA would wish to ban all walkers would had walked through a potato field from spreading Phytophera Infestans far an wide and bring on the second coming of the Irish Famine to all the British Isles.

So Andies fear is not so wide of the mark if fake news can bolster your case, so be it.

The CLA managed to suppress news that it was, probably, their own members, who trying to maximize profit from tree planting grants, bought cheap infected tree stock and put all our Ash trees at risk from Ash Die Back fungus.
 :2funny:
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: BuzyG on 13:54:57, 26/10/20
If you read the story carefully, they were actually fined for being in breach of the Foresty Act Bylaws.  Perhaps a badly worded headline?
According to
https://naturalresources.wales/about-us/what-we-do/how-we-regulate-you/our-regulatory-responsibilities/offence-response-options/forestry-offences/?lang=en (https://naturalresources.wales/about-us/what-we-do/how-we-regulate-you/our-regulatory-responsibilities/offence-response-options/forestry-offences/?lang=en)  they do get cross if you fell a tree without permission.
Their policy on Wild Camping can be inferred here:https://naturalresources.wales/about-us/news-and-events/news/open-letter-urges-campers-to-respect-the-welsh-environment-this-bank-holiday-weekend/?lang=en
Basically you must have permission.

That seems a well balanced article.

https://naturalresources.wales/about-us/news-and-events/news/open-letter-urges-campers-to-respect-the-welsh-environment-this-bank-holiday-weekend/?lang=en (https://naturalresources.wales/about-us/news-and-events/news/open-letter-urges-campers-to-respect-the-welsh-environment-this-bank-holiday-weekend/?lang=en)

This year has, quite evidently, been very different to those preceding it.  I'm sure most if not all of us have noticed the increased erosion and rubbish on popular routes that we walk.  I don't often take the direct route down from Yes tor, but did the other evening, as it was dark and it's the safes way back down to Meldon.  The surface is mostly completely worn through to soil and wider than ever.  I have never seen that before. Evidence not just that it has been a damp summer, but that many more folk have walked up and down that route this year than is usual.
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: Andies on 14:57:37, 26/10/20
BWW's story about his LAF reminds me of when I contacted Suffolk's LAF a few years ago. I was frustrated by the ROW Department's inability to deal with basic issues around broken and missing signage, together with blocked and non reinstated ROW, especially when many issues had been reported many times and in some cases had not been dealt with five years later, despite assurances that they would be dealt with.
My email to the LAF remained unanswered for some weeks, but eventually I received an acknowledgement, and thereafter a reply. Sadly the reply wasn't actually from the LAF addressing my question of what oversight they took of the ROW Department's performance but rather a reply from the head of the ROW Department! The reply made various general observations but failed to address my question. I subsequently awaited the next LAF meeting to see what if anything they would say. The minutes of the meeting recorded that they considered the issue dealt with by the head of the Department's letter!
It confirmed my view that the LAF was as useless as the ROW Department seems to be.
The only plus was that almost all the long outstanding issues I had reported were then miraculously dealt with  O0
Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: barewirewalker on 10:08:57, 27/10/20
BWW's story about his LAF
The only plus was that almost all the long outstanding issues I had reported were then miraculously dealt with  O0
Glad you got some sort of result. I got appointed to a LAF because I was reporting issue like yours to the RoW dept and then they were trying to make numbers. I was totally independent of any lobby group, 30+ years out of farming with I had founded a business loosely connected to the hospitality trade. Perhaps I was aware of a perspective, that only I could see, but so glaringly obvious that the stupidly embedded attitudes of both ramblers and landowners blind them from a common cause. And the local gov.com rules are designed to protect the status quo.



The professional landowner consultant (X), introduced by the CLA member of the LAF, was bought on the fill his place as he was about to take the Chair. That was when I got the push, (no complaints I had done 3 yrs over my 2) but within a couple of years I learnt that X had been maneuvered into the Chair. So a landowner clone now chairs the now Great Outdoors Liaison Group of the central of the 3 counties that blocks Mid-England from routes reaching the Welsh coast. This counties contribution to LDP's is a meandering circular route that avoids all the areas that are bare of 'off road routes' because of the landowners hostility to the formation of RoWs in the 1950-60's, thus corrupting the DM.





Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: Andies on 15:26:40, 27/10/20
BWW's experiences and views sit very close to my own, and I think that as the years pass by I am becoming evermore resigned to the inability of groups that should be working for the good of access, seeming to fail, IMHO.
For example I have separately referred to my Ramblers membership renewal or not on this forum. On the surface they seem the perfect body to lead the fight for access, but on a personal level they left me very frustrated by their non-existent support.
My local ROW Department consistently fails to uphold it's responsibilities but you get nowhere trying to pursue matters with them. Result I just don't bother to report matters to them anymore. I know where the ROW are so I just walk them regardless ignoring the multitude of issues seen of: blocked routes, non-reinstated routes, damaged and missing signage.
The counties LAF; well best not say anymore.....
So what's the point of me moaning on, well, I think I will just conclude that I will do my own thing, go where I think reasonable, and yes trespass if I think it appropriate to do so. If those organisations aren't getting anywhere with all the problems then I will just quietly find my own way righteous or not  ;)

Title: Re: Petition Against Criminalising Trespass
Post by: barewirewalker on 11:23:58, 28/10/20
I agree with you Andies, I would miss your support when I find some way of inserting a dissenting voice to interrupt necessary flow of topics so pertinent to our core interest as fracking and bicycle repair.
My days of climbing more difficult styles or being able to leg it out of the way irate lord of the manor as passing me by. But when some of those experiences I have enjoyed may help to ridicule the self importance of occupiers of our countryside, I will no doubt be tempted to throw in my two pennyworth.

If you find a kilometer square without a RoW in it, it is a sad state of affairs not to wonder if there is a worth while way through it.