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Main Boards => Long Distance Walks => Topic started by: jimbob on 12:05:52, 14/02/20

Title: PW walker numbers
Post by: jimbob on 12:05:52, 14/02/20
On a new thread a new member was asking about the PW in relation to the Camino France.
This got me  to thinking about the replies, so far.
I had a feeling that accommodation close to the PW is in decline. I based this on looking up bnbs from a 10 year old guide book and discovering that the majority are no longer available. The latest guidebooks do not have the same number of places available close to the route.
Then I looked on the new National trails website and was surprised to see the lists of accommodation they show available. Is this correct or just a rehashing of out of date information on the new site?

I will try to work through the lists and report back.
Out of date info on a new National Trails site is of no benefit to anyone. No proof that it is yet, but they were useless at updating accommodation info on their old site.

Also on the Camino they keep a record of numbers walking at any time of the year, does anyone gave any idea where information about numbers walking the PW are available. These numbers are important as they can be used in economic assessments given when people want to open hostels, bnbs, and campsites.

P. S. I realise that the Camino passports, and final certificates are used to give numbers neither of which are available on the PW. When I finished I hopped into a car and was whisked away by my family away to get my head examined, missing out on signing the book and drinking my pint.
Title: Re: PW walker numbers
Post by: harland on 12:18:10, 14/02/20
missing out on ….. drinking my pint.
So why did you walk it! :D :D
Although I don't normally drink I made sure I had my free pint after that walk, I seem to remember I may have had one or two more.
Title: Re: PW walker numbers
Post by: Ridge on 12:19:47, 14/02/20
Not all of the accommodation info on the National Trail site is up to date and some of it is a long way off route.
Title: Re: PW walker numbers
Post by: jimbob on 12:29:20, 14/02/20
Not all of the accommodation info on the National Trail site is up to date and some of it is a long way off route.
As I suspected. Even though it is a brand new site.

I am going to work my way through it and report back, I'll include them also.


Title: Re: PW walker numbers
Post by: gunwharfman on 16:06:47, 14/02/20
I suspect that the changes are partly caused by people moving in and out of areas which reflect the ups and downs of our capitalist way of life? I read today that since Brexit started there has been a 13%shift of people moving from here in the south to the North. I don't know if there is much truth in the statistics but I'm sure it happens, I mean it wasn't so long ago when miners were walking from Wales to get jobs in the coal mines in the North East of England. The Pennine Way route is static and doesn't move but populations are always moving?
Title: Re: PW walker numbers
Post by: jimbob on 16:28:51, 14/02/20
The reason I'm interested in walker numbers is the simple economic fact, supply (accommodation, cafes etc in the case of the PW) follows demand( walker numbers).

If the walkers are in decline then that could be the reason for less accommodation.

But there doesn't seem to be any way of working out definitive numbers as far as I am aware.

Seemingly the burger can has even stopped turning up on the Snake Road. It would be there if it was financially worthwhile.
Title: Re: PW walker numbers
Post by: sussamb on 21:42:31, 14/02/20
Not sure the burger van ever depended on PW walkers though  O0
Title: Re: PW walker numbers
Post by: jimbob on 22:03:43, 14/02/20
Not sure the burger van ever depended on PW walkers though  O0
Aye you're probably right, but talking to two or three people who have done the PW over the last few years the perception is that accommodation close to the PW is fast disappearing. When I did it I easily booked up just a couple of weeks in advance, four of the places I stayed at have closed down, and I'm sure it was nowt to do with me,..... Or maybe it was.


Title: Re: PW walker numbers
Post by: Ridge on 22:07:39, 14/02/20
I suspect that the changes are partly caused by people moving in and out of areas which reflect the ups and downs of our capitalist way of life?
I'm not sure about this GWM, I would think most people travel a long way to do the Pennine Way. I'm not sure that where they live or have moved to for work will make much difference.
I do wonder if less walkers is because it used to be THE long distance walk but now it is one of many.
Title: Re: PW walker numbers
Post by: jimbob on 22:31:02, 14/02/20
I'm not sure about this GWM, I would think most people travel a long way to do the Pennine Way. I'm not sure that where they live or have moved to for work will make much difference.
I do wonder if less walkers is because it used to be THE long distance walk but now it is one of many.
.
 How can we tell if there are actually less walkers?

Google shows hugely differing numbers, though it only takes a bit of sifting to realise the high end is made up of folks out for a day walk, down to about 2000 doing the whole walk annually.
But the disparity leads me to think they are plucking numbers out of thin air.
Was it ever more than 2000 p. a. ? Is it now less than that number?
Title: Re: PW walker numbers
Post by: harland on 07:04:16, 15/02/20
Getting round to the accommodation issue I have always thought that running a B&B is hard work.  Having to be around to take phone calls (although mobiles have alleviated this to some extent), someone in from early afternoon to let people in, making breakfast, changing bedding/towels etc after only 1 night for walkers, cleaning the room, not having the privacy of your own home.  A lot of work for, in my opinion, not a lot of money unless you have say 5/6 rooms whereby the economies of scale help.

Historically my grandmother took a lodger, for company as well as helping with the bills but they were reasonably long term well behaved university students (when only about 5% of the brightest went to uni) and not one night walkers.  I may be wrong but I think that running a B&B with only one or two rooms is not seen as attractive to make ends meet when benefits can fill that gap - that will wind someone up! ;D
Title: Re: PW walker numbers
Post by: jimbob on 08:53:17, 15/02/20
You are correct Harland. Apart from the things you mention. The costs for small establishments that obey the rules are also prohibitive, rates, insurance, fire safety, hygiene, being classed as commercial for energy costs, advertising etc. make it very difficult to run a small place as anything other than a labour of love.
Title: Re: PW walker numbers
Post by: rural roamer on 11:57:49, 17/02/20
I think you may be right jimbob. I have replied on the other thread you mention. When we walked it in 2016 some of the accommodation we found listed in various places had closed. But we are finding that on all the LDWs we walk. If you are relying on mostly walkers who only spend one night with you it’s a lot of hard work.


With regards to numbers, we walked in June/July and there seemed to be maybe 8-10 other walkers, no more, that we saw walking each day.  Not sure what you can work out from that though!
Title: Re: PW walker numbers
Post by: Stube on 11:06:02, 18/02/20
Peak numbers for the PW were in the eighties - over 10,000 a year. These numbers caused huge damage to the moors which can be seen  to this day in some parts and led to the extensive slabbing of the moors..
As a retired lone walker, I find the price of B&Bs prohibitive - hence I always camp. The YHA no longer support enough hotels to be a viable alternative - and they aren't cheap either.
Title: Re: PW walker numbers
Post by: fernman on 11:33:09, 18/02/20
Not a fan of b&b's myself. Apart from the cost, which wasn't too bad when I was working but which is prohibitive to me now, I'm not very good with social small talk particularly as my hearing isn't so good, and I always feel a bit of an intruder in someone's home in spite of paying for the privelege and no matter how friendly and hospitable the hosts might be.
I have slightly uneasy memories of the crumbling shabby-chic manor house of an eccentric in Cumbria, my Edinburgh room like an ice box, the rather posh family home in Surrey where it was obvious that I was using the oldest teenage son's room, he presumably having been moved elsewhere for the night for my benefit, and the prissy bungalow in Cornwall with about twenty cushions and pillows on the bed, where I felt I didn't dare touch anything.
Title: Re: PW walker numbers
Post by: ninthace on 12:03:31, 18/02/20
<<snip>> ... crumbling shabby-chic manor house of an eccentric in Cumbria, my Edinburgh room like an ice box, the rather posh family home in Surrey where it was obvious that I was using the oldest teenage son's room, he presumably having been moved elsewhere for the night for my benefit, and the prissy bungalow in Cornwall with about twenty cushions and pillows on the bed, where I felt I didn't dare touch anything.
  I feel your pain.  I have enough trouble spending the night in one of my kids' houses
Title: Re: PW walker numbers
Post by: tonyk on 12:46:24, 18/02/20
 The numbers from five years ago vary from 2000-3,500 a year walking the complete trail.I should imagine these numbers are based on the surveys that I have answered numerous times when walking the route.

 https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/europe/united-kingdom/articles/The-Pennine-Way-Britains-greatest-walking-trail/
 https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/analysis/why-do-so-many-people-feel-the-need-to-walk-the-pennine-way-1-8103398

 I have walked the route several times and have come to the conclusion that it is mainly a backpackers route as the number of people I have met staying in B&B is quite small.Youth hostels made it viable for people who didn't want to camp but since they have closed the cost of B& B over 17-20 days is out of  reach for a lot of people.The shorter coast to coast is a more viable option for most people.


Title: Re: PW walker numbers
Post by: forest view on 14:20:35, 08/03/20
The numbers walking the Pennine way have grown every year since 2006 (it was badly affected by Foot and mouth when all footpaths in Northumberland were closed for 2 years) We used to take tourists and cyclists but now don`t have any spare beds they are all occupied by Pennine wayers & lands end to John o Groats walkers from April to October. In recent years we have shut down during the winter as we are well past retirement age and 6 months of 7 day weeks is all we can manage. I would love a younger couple to come along and buy Forest View ( the recent almost sale unfortunately fell through at the last minute.) It is a great life you are always at home when the kids get in from school etc. it is hard work but I wouldn`t have changed the last 45 years in hospitality for anything else I know when we do find a buyer that we will miss the life terribly but it has given us a good lifestyle for all of our working lives and thousands of brilliant memories which we will never forget.   
Title: Re: PW walker numbers
Post by: jimbob on 14:34:47, 08/03/20
The numbers walking the Pennine way have grown every year since 2006 (it was badly affected by Foot and mouth when all footpaths in Northumberland were closed for 2 years) We used to take tourists and cyclists but now don`t have any spare beds they are all occupied by Pennine wayers & lands end to John o Groats walkers from April to October. In recent years we have shut down during the winter as we are well past retirement age and 6 months of 7 day weeks is all we can manage. I would love a younger couple to come along and buy Forest View ( the recent almost sale unfortunately fell through at the last minute.) It is a great life you are always at home when the kids get in from school etc. it is hard work but I wouldn`t have changed the last 45 years in hospitality for anything else I know when we do find a buyer that we will miss the life terribly but it has given us a good lifestyle for all of our working lives and thousands of brilliant memories which we will never forget.
Thanks for this. My wife has recently retired from running our house as a bnb whilst I was away working and helping out when I could but it is extremely tying and actually hard work and long hours when looking after people. Aye folks is canny but work isnae. Ahd age is a muckle hacky price to pay just for being bonny and canny isn't it.
Title: Re: PW walker numbers
Post by: SteamyTea on 14:58:10, 08/03/20
Numbers may be hidden in here:
http://publications.naturalengland.org.uk/file/4903525494030336&ved=2ahUKEwiC3PLwkIvoAhVDY8AKHUjLDAIQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw2wLhw79CbxFTKYMIorV4I9 (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://publications.naturalengland.org.uk/file/4903525494030336&ved=2ahUKEwiC3PLwkIvoAhVDY8AKHUjLDAIQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw2wLhw79CbxFTKYMIorV4I9)

Shall make the link shorter when I get home.  I am currently in the second most visited place in Cornwall, it is full of dog walkers.

Re accomodation as s proxy for numbers, the method of renting out has changed a lot in the last decade, no one had heard if AirBnB in2010.
Title: Re: PW walker numbers
Post by: jimbob on 17:54:46, 08/03/20
Thanks for this interesting report. Have quickly scanned it and even though it has none of the info I was chasing it is very informative even though its 4 years old. I am going to see if I can find the latest report.

I can see how an idea of visitor numbers are more easily calculated for Hadrians Wall, given that many walkers buy the passport. (not necessarily accurate but a guide)

The details from Forest View are valuable also as that data helps others decide whether it is commercially viable to offer accomodation to walkers in areas where it has disappeared, or become scarce.
Airbnb are an unreliable planning source due to the ease with which bookings are cancelled, lack of insurance and in many cases just outright scans, and that last is from personal experience. They have just removed hundreds of scam sites from London, although I had a great genuine one recently in Dufton which is not currently advertised.
Title: Re: PW walker numbers
Post by: Ridge on 19:25:57, 08/03/20
Forest View is probably a good gauge of people who make it that far as they have little competition when it comes to other places to sleep, either in a bed or under canvas, compared to other places. Also, however many days you are taking over the walk, very very few people will not stop in Byrness.
The other place to enquire would be the Border Hotel if they are prepared to tell you how many free drinks they give out a year.