Author Topic: Tent Comparisons  (Read 9519 times)

FOX160

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Re: Tent Comparisons
« Reply #45 on: 20:44:12, 10/05/18 »

For daily fitness walks I've now dropped the weight down to 41-42 lbs, (which I am comfortable and happy carrying on the lanes and tracks around us - just enough to get a 'sweat on' and keep the body weight in line and I can maintain an average of 3.5 mpg) of which food & water is around 13lbs and there are all sorts of 'bits and bobs' thrown in to make up the weight.


 When on 'proper' multi-day hikes it is re-packed with whatever is necessary for the conditions / duration and is generally 5lbs+ lighter.


Weights are :
Rucksack : 1.7kg
Tent, Sleeping Bag, Mat, Footprint : 4.08kg
Stove, Gas Cartridge, Pots, Pans Bowls, Cup, Cutlery, Washing Up Kit : 1.42kg
Change of Clothing, Hat, Gloves, Washing Kit, Gaiters, Camp Slippers : 3.38kg
Bits & Bobs (1st Aid Kit, Trowel, Loo Paper, Radio, Kindle, Multi-Tool, Solar 'Battery Bank*' & Leads, Torch, Head Light, GPS, etc etc). :2.22kg


Total 12.8 kgs (28lbs)


*Solar Battery bank weighs 234g and will re-charge my Kindle, GPS, Watch,  Phone, Head Light, Torch & power the USB Tent Lamp


Wow that’s a lot of unnecessary weight your carrying! Is your kit for 3/4season use?
Change your pack last. Do you actually need a Two person tent! Your cookset is very heavy, what’s your cooking preference? Sleep system is heavy too, and what is your budget? You can always buy good second hand products from people whom are dropping their pack weight too.

alan de enfield

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Re: Tent Comparisons
« Reply #46 on: 21:13:10, 10/05/18 »


Wow that’s a lot of unnecessary weight your carrying! Is your kit for 3/4season use?
Change your pack last. Do you actually need a Two person tent! Your cookset is very heavy, what’s your cooking preference? Sleep system is heavy too, and what is your budget? You can always buy good second hand products from people whom are dropping their pack weight too.


Since the original post I have reduced the weight of those items quoted by 1.6kg (down to 10.6kgs)


The cooking 'system' comprises of :
Titanium pot and frying pan = 165g
Gas Cannister (220g gas) = 367g
Gas Stove, Stand and Windbreak = 291g
Porridge Bowl = 50g
300ml insulated Mug = 112g
T-Towel = 26g
Can Opener / Washing Up Liquid / Pan Scourer / Tea Spoon = 48g
Back Up wood / Twig Stove = 147g.


I have an alternative Titanium Stove at 50g but it is less stable than the one with a built in stand and hose connection to the gas cartridge as the lightweight one screws directly onto the top of the gas cartridge. (So I could drop out another 200+ grams).


If I was overly worried about the pack weight I could also leave out the Wood stove (147g)


I have reduced the 'sleep system' weight (and bulk) by going for a new down 3-season sleeping bag (now 860g was previously 1600g) and a lighter weight sleep mat (now 460g was previously 990g)


I have reduced the 'clothing weight' by 500g by replacing winter clothes, ( plus gloves and 'wooly hat') with lightweight Summer clothes.


Tent - yes. Whilst I don't need a 2-man tent I am not a small person and enjoy the length, width and additional 'seating' height. My 1-man tent with footprint weighs in at 1800g, my 2-man with footprint weighs 2030g. I am happy to carry 200g for the additional comfort and space.
« Last Edit: 21:17:57, 10/05/18 by alan de enfield »

marmottungsten

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Re: Tent Comparisons
« Reply #47 on: 02:55:27, 18/05/18 »

Good point.
I have a Berghaus Trailhead 65 that weighs in at 1.7 kgs empty which for its size and strength seems to be comparable with, and lighter than, many.
Tent 'footprint' is 0.23kg.
My sleeping bag is a candidate for weight reduction being a Vango Wilderness (rated 5 / 0 / -15) and weighs 1.5kg inc stuff sack.
Self Inflating Sleeping mat weighs in at 0.99kg.


Total weight of 'cooking equipment' comes in at 1.4Kgs
(P51 Can Opener, Aluminium Foil, Lighter, Washing up Liquid, Pan Scourer, Piezo-Ignition Stove, Stove Stand / Remote Gas Adapter, Plastic Spatula, Tea-Spoon,
Titanium Saucepan & Frying Pan,  Gas Stove, 220g Colman Gas Cartridge (Will Boil ~ 13 Litres Water), Folding Wood Stove (With Paper & Kindling), 1x 'long' Lighter, Stainless Steel Bowls (2x 50g), 250ml Stainless Steel Cup, 2x Aluminium Foil 'Pans', Aluminium  Stove Wind-Break, Tea-Towel).
Alan, firstly I have to say that you are carrying way too much superfluous gear...Most of that kit won't be used, or it's too heavy and elaborate, so it would be better left at home, reducing both weight and the volume of the backpack you need to carry it all in, which in turn will save even more weight.  Your Berghaus 65 litre rucksack is very heavy and bulky...If you really want a backpack of that size, then there are several backpacks out there, of similar capacity that are around half the weight.  For instance, the $325, 64 litre Zpacks Arc Haul Zip, which at 780g, is less than half the weight of your Berghaus.  However, if you use ultralight gear which can be packed smaller, allowing you to use a slightly smaller backpack, you could get away with something like a $325, 55 litre Zpacks Arc Blast instead, which weighs just £595g, a massive 1.105kg lighter than your Berghaus! 
Your sleeping bag is very heavy too...A £320 Marmot Phase 30 Down sleeping bag, has the same comfort rating as your Vango but it's only 500g...3 times lighter than your Vango!   
Self inflating mats like yours are very heavy too, offer little in the way of comfort and do not pack down very small...A £69.99 Kylmit Inertia X-Frame Regular would be far more comfortable, packs down to the size of a Coke can, inflates quicker (only takes 3-4 breaths, then you use the included micro pump to increase the firmness if required) and weighs just 241g, almost 750g lighter than your self inflating mat!  So as you can see, just by swapping 3 items for ultralight versions you can save several kilos off your base weight, but, with the exception of the X-Frame, they can also cost you a lot of money.  So as always, it costs money to lose weight!
« Last Edit: 10:53:58, 18/05/18 by marmottungsten »

April

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Re: Tent Comparisons
« Reply #48 on: 07:03:16, 18/05/18 »
Self inflating mats like yours are very heavy too, offer little in the way of comfort and do not pack down small...A Kylmit Inertia X-Frame would be far more comfortable, packs down to the size of a Coke can and weighs just 241g,

Far more comfortable?

I looked at the Klymit a few years ago intrigued by its light weight and pack size but didn't think it would be suitable for me, here is a review of the mat by Outdoorgearlab. I would rather carry more weight and have a more comfy night. Just because you find it comfortable it wouldn't be comfortable for everyone.

https://www.outdoorgearlab.com/reviews/camping-and-hiking/sleeping-pad/klymit-inertia-x-frame

In my experience, marmottungsten the lightest weight item isn't always the best option, for instance, we now carry a heavier tent because it is warmer and less draughty in the sometimes cold and breezy conditions on the Lake District hills. People can carry what they want to take when they go out camping or bakcpacking, it may be too heavy for you to carry perhaps but I know people who take a lot more gear than alan. What you take with you is a personal choice, what is unnecessary to one person is essential for someone else.
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beefy

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Re: Tent Comparisons
« Reply #49 on: 07:32:32, 18/05/18 »
Your Berghaus 65 litre rucksack is very heavy and bulky...If you really want a backpack of that size, then there are several backpacks out there, of similar capacity that are around half the weight. For instance, the 64 litre Zpacks Arc Haul Zip, which at 780g, is less than half the weight, but use ultralight gear, which can be packed smaller, allowing you to use a smaller backpack, like a 55 litre Zpacks Arc Blast which weighs just £595g, 1.105kg lighter than your Berghaus!  Your sleeping bag is very heavy too...A Marmot Phase 30 Down sleeping bag, has the 8same comfort rating as your Vango but it's 3 times lighter!   Self inflating mats like yours are very heavy too, offer little in the way of comfort and do not pack down small...A Kylmit Inertia X-Frame would be far more comfortable, packs down to the size of a Coke can and weighs just 241g, almost 750g lighter than your self inflating mat!  By choosing these ultralight options you can easiily save several kilos. As you might suspect, some of these options are quite expensive, so if are serious about saving serious amounts of weight, i'm afraid it's going to cost you serious amounts of money!
Some very valid points there from April :)
Have you seen the price of Zpacks gear  :o
Are they Cuban fibre, and how durable are they,
Isn't  This fabric easily punctured?
Save yourself some weight, and a shed load of money
And rip off import tax, etc. And buy an osprey Exos pack,
I can highly recommend them,
They are light, durable, and worth the money,
I find mine very comfortable,
As for the sleeping bag, I use a Vango down 5 degree bag which cost about £60
Weighs 650g and packs down really small,
And the Klymit,
I wouldn't  Even give it to the dog to sleep on,
Saving weight is one thing, sacrificing comfort and a good night's
 Sleep is another

 

 

Leave only footprints, take only photographs, kill only time ...

alan de enfield

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Re: Tent Comparisons
« Reply #50 on: 08:24:18, 18/05/18 »


quote author=marmottungsten link=topic=36044.msg519641#msg519641 date=1526608527]
Alan, firstly I have to say that you are carrying way too much superfluous gear...Most of that kit won't be used and can be left at home, reducing both weight and the volume of the backpack you need to carry it all in, which in turn will save even more weight.  Your Berghaus 65 litre rucksack is very heavy and bulky...If you really want a backpack of that size, then there are several backpacks out there, of similar capacity that are around half the weight. For instance, the 64 litre Zpacks Arc Haul Zip, which at 780g, is less than half the weight, but use ultralight gear, which can be packed smaller, allowing you to use a smaller backpack, like a 55 litre Zpacks Arc Blast which weighs just £595g, 1.105kg lighter than your Berghaus!  Your sleeping bag is very heavy too...A Marmot Phase 30 Down sleeping bag, has the same comfort rating as your Vango but it's 3 times lighter!   Self inflating mats like yours are very heavy too, offer little in the way of comfort and do not pack down small...A Kylmit Inertia X-Frame would be far more comfortable, packs down to the size of a Coke can and weighs just 241g, almost 750g lighter than your self inflating mat!  By choosing these ultralight options you can easiily save several kilos. As you might suspect, some of these options are quite expensive, so if are serious about saving serious amounts of weight, i'm afraid it's going to cost you serious amounts of money!



Thank you for taking the time to reply but you seem to have missed my latest post (it was immediately before your post) where you will see I have replaced some gear (sleeping bag down by 50% and sleep mat down by 50%).
I have looked at the X-Frame but being a 'side sleeper' it is totally and utterly useless - being just a 'string of sausage balloons tied together at random points' give no support at all.
Having read various reviews of it your recommendation appears to be unique - are you a Marmot / Klymit employee ?
Even users reviews on the Klymit website use it with an extra foam pad (there goes any weight & bulk saving).


Being 6 foot, a 'side sleeper' fairly 'wide and heavy' (93kgs) I unfortunately fail to meet any of the criteria for use of the X-Frame.


While other pads eliminate weight by removing foam or using lightweight materials  the X Frame takes an aggressive weight savings approach by eliminating portions of the pad itself.


Although the X Frame is impressively lightweight and compact, it has several drawbacks that restrict its use to a specific group of people.
1) The pad's air baffles are "body mapped" to fit someone about 5' 10" in height. Depending on how your body parts match up to it, the pad may not fit you. The pad is also the narrowest of the 20 we tested — it's 18" wide as opposed to the standard 20" width. Thus, wider people may not fit on it.
2) The pad is ideal for people who sleep on their backs and don't thrash about at night. You may not find the Inertia X Frame to be comfortable if you turn over frequently, sleep on your side, or curl excessively.
3) The pad's thin baffles and large open spaces do a poor job at insulating you from the ground below; the pad is best for summer use.

In sum, the Inertia X Frame could be a good choice for summer backpacking if you're around 5' 10" and sleep on your back.
« Last Edit: 09:05:25, 18/05/18 by alan de enfield »

marmottungsten

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Re: Tent Comparisons
« Reply #51 on: 11:39:29, 18/05/18 »

quote author=marmottungsten link=topic=36044.msg519641#msg519641 date=1526608527]
Alan, firstly I have to say that you are carrying way too much superfluous gear...Most of that kit won't be used and can be left at home, reducing both weight and the volume of the backpack you need to carry it all in, which in turn will save even more weight.  Your Berghaus 65 litre rucksack is very heavy and bulky...If you really want a backpack of that size, then there are several backpacks out there, of similar capacity that are around half the weight. For instance, the 64 litre Zpacks Arc Haul Zip, which at 780g, is less than half the weight, but use ultralight gear, which can be packed smaller, allowing you to use a smaller backpack, like a 55 litre Zpacks Arc Blast which weighs just £595g, 1.105kg lighter than your Berghaus!  Your sleeping bag is very heavy too...A Marmot Phase 30 Down sleeping bag, has the same comfort rating as your Vango but it's 3 times lighter!   Self inflating mats like yours are very heavy too, offer little in the way of comfort and do not pack down small...A Kylmit Inertia X-Frame would be far more comfortable, packs down to the size of a Coke can and weighs just 241g, almost 750g lighter than your self inflating mat!  By choosing these ultralight options you can easiily save several kilos. As you might suspect, some of these options are quite expensive, so if are serious about saving serious amounts of weight, i'm afraid it's going to cost you serious amounts of money!



Thank you for taking the time to reply but you seem to have missed my latest post (it was immediately before your post) where you will see I have replaced some gear (sleeping bag down by 50% and sleep mat down by 50%).
I have looked at the X-Frame but being a 'side sleeper' it is totally and utterly useless - being just a 'string of sausage balloons tied together at random points' give no support at all.
Having read various reviews of it your recommendation appears to be unique - are you a Marmot / Klymit employee ?
Even users reviews on the Klymit website use it with an extra foam pad (there goes any weight & bulk saving).


Being 6 foot, a 'side sleeper' fairly 'wide and heavy' (93kgs) I unfortunately fail to meet any of the criteria for use of the X-Frame.


While other pads eliminate weight by removing foam or using lightweight materials  the X Frame takes an aggressive weight savings approach by eliminating portions of the pad itself.


Although the X Frame is impressively lightweight and compact, it has several drawbacks that restrict its use to a specific group of people.
1) The pad's air baffles are "body mapped" to fit someone about 5' 10" in height. Depending on how your body parts match up to it, the pad may not fit you. The pad is also the narrowest of the 20 we tested — it's 18" wide as opposed to the standard 20" width. Thus, wider people may not fit on it.
2) The pad is ideal for people who sleep on their backs and don't thrash about at night. You may not find the Inertia X Frame to be comfortable if you turn over frequently, sleep on your side, or curl excessively.
3) The pad's thin baffles and large open spaces do a poor job at insulating you from the ground below; the pad is best for summer use.

In sum, the Inertia X Frame could be a good choice for summer backpacking if you're around 5' 10" and sleep on your back.


Just so you know, I don't work for Marmot or Klymit, I just use their equipment which I chose carefully after much research into ultralight gear. 
I am also a side sleeper, and I genuinely find the X-Frame very comfortable, so unless you have actually used one for yourself I wouldn't believe one negative review.
I should also mention that I use the X-Frame Recon, not the normal X-Frame.  The Recon comes in a much lower visibility Coyote/Sand colour (much better for steath camping), and its far more durable because unlike the normal X-Frame, which is 75D material on the bottom and 45D material on the top, the Recon is 75D material on both sides...Effectively making it double sided, which is another bonus because if one side gets dirty, you still have a clean side to sleep on.  It is a little heavier of course (about 292g) but that still makes it 48g lighter than a Neoair Xlite, and far more durable, because the Xlite is only 30D material top and bottom!  And yet another bonus is it does not make a load of noise when you move on it, in fact, it's virtually silent, unlike the racket you get from a Neoair if you so much as twitch on it during the night!
I have to stress that the X-Frame must be used INSIDE your sleeping bag, not under it.  This allows your sleeping bags down to loft up into the cut outs ("loft pockets", as Klymit calls them), which greatly increases the insulation below you.  Lying on any other sleeping mat, like a Neoair, compresses the down under you, greatly reducing the insulation below you, so the X-Frame is far warmer to sleep on than it looks.  Also, your body heat isn't constantly being lost to a cold sleeping mat underneath your sleeping bag...Inside your sleeping bag, the air inside the X-Frame heats up and is kept warm by the greater loft in the down below you, keeping you cosy and warm.  It may look wierd, but it works!
I also use Klymits Pillow-X Recon.  The clever self-centering action of it's design means your head has a better chance of staying on the pillow, even when you twist and turn in the night, and it gives handy clearance space for your ears when sleeping on your side, so your earplug has a better chance of staying in your ear overnight...Which can help you avoid being woken up by the damn dawn chorus!
Again, it a bit heavier than the normal Pillow-X because its 75D material both sides, instead of 75D material on the bottom and 30D material on the top.  It weighs 63.8g and it packs down to something not much bigger than a Bic lighter.  Conveniently, it packs down small enough to fit inside the X-Frame Recon storage pouch along with the X-Frame recon itself.  And this pouch then fit's inside an ultralight Trekmates 5 litre compression bag, along with my Marmot Phase 30 sleeping bag, my Berghaus 75% Merino wool socks and my Technicals 50% Merino wool, long sleeved top and trousers, thermal underwear...Which is all I wear inside my Phase 30 at night.  By the way, a little tip...I also place an ultralight space blanket on the floor of my tent, to reflect my body heat back upwards, and my sleeping bag goes directly on top of of that...It is about twice the width of my tents sleeping area so I can conveniently wrap the other half of the space blanket over my sleeping bag, keeping me even warmer.  :)
« Last Edit: 12:07:28, 18/05/18 by marmottungsten »

gunwharfman

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Re: Tent Comparisons
« Reply #52 on: 11:48:48, 18/05/18 »
I've always found it easy to make mistakes with equipment, I'm now on my 3rd rucksack. I'm now happy with what I've got and will not be buying another. I'm also on my 3rd Thermarest, my original is great to sleep on but a bit bulky, I now use it in the house for me to sleep on when we have visitors. I prefer to be downstairs because I am always the first one up and doing in the mornings. I also have a thin Thermarest which I use in my Bivi, which rolls up very nicely to carry, but its drawback is that I have to be so precise with its pressure, too little and my hip becomes painful, too much and its like sleeping on a brick. I'm very happy with my Neo Air, expensive but so comfortable and so easy to roll into a small pack.

I like my Pulsar 1 tent but I need to replace it because four of the poles have snapped (a teenager fell on it, or was pushed) and I can't get new one. I also have a Zepyros 1, which is best for the winter, this I think is a strong tent.

marmottungsten

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Re: Tent Comparisons
« Reply #53 on: 11:57:15, 18/05/18 »
I've always found it easy to make mistakes with equipment, I'm now on my 3rd rucksack. I'm now happy with what I've got and will not be buying another. I'm also on my 3rd Thermarest, my original is great to sleep on but a bit bulky, I now use it in the house for me to sleep on when we have visitors. I prefer to be downstairs because I am always the first one up and doing in the mornings. I also have a thin Thermarest which I use in my Bivi, which rolls up very nicely to carry, but its drawback is that I have to be so precise with its pressure, too little and my hip becomes painful, too much and its like sleeping on a brick. I'm very happy with my Neo Air, expensive but so comfortable and so easy to roll into a small pack.

I like my Pulsar 1 tent but I need to replace it because four of the poles have snapped (a teenager fell on it, or was pushed) and I can't get new one. I also have a Zepyros 1, which is best for the winter, this I think is a strong tent.


Have you tried ringing Marmot to see if they have replacement poles for your Pulsar in stock?  I went to their website and found this, among the commonly asked questions: "Can I order replacement parts (buckles, pole parts, zipper pulls, etc.) through Marmot?" "Certainly! Marmot’s Warranty department carries an assortment of parts and pieces for replacement. To find out what we have in stock, please give us a call at (888) 311-2900, Monday through Friday from 7:30am - 5:00pm (PST)."

gunwharfman

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Re: Tent Comparisons
« Reply #54 on: 12:42:39, 18/05/18 »
I tried Marmot UK and Marmot USA, they could not help me. I even sent my broken poles to a couple of other firms but again nothing. In the meantime I've managed to bodge them together with sticky tape and the tent is now OK again, but I always know now that I am in a defective tent. I did this some months ago but thanks to your information I might try again.

Rajboy

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Re: Tent Comparisons
« Reply #55 on: 12:42:50, 18/05/18 »
Don't cook just boil water and add to.....whatever......look forward to a real meal when you get home.
It will save extra weight of fuel/gas canister.
Trail Designs set up, if you can justify importing
OR....buy local in UK.....Speedster stove, stand and windshield...meths system.
Smaller pot max 600ml.
Takes up much less space in pack and weight is minimal......

marmottungsten

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Re: Tent Comparisons
« Reply #56 on: 21:53:23, 18/05/18 »
I tried Marmot UK and Marmot USA, they could not help me. I even sent my broken poles to a couple of other firms but again nothing. In the meantime I've managed to bodge them together with sticky tape and the tent is now OK again, but I always know now that I am in a defective tent. I did this some months ago but thanks to your information I might try again.


Do you have a means to accurately measure the inner diameter of your poles like a cheap digital vernier caliper for instance? If your poles have snapped then you just need to join the broken bits together with some 2-3" lengths of tube that are a slightly tight or "snug fit" inside them.  But you will need to know the exact inner diameter of your broken tubes, so you can go to your local Aluminium or non-ferrous metals stockist and get the right size tube to make joiner sections from. Stainless steel would work great but you can save a little weight by using 7000 series Duralumin tube (Aircraft grade) instead. Once you have your joiner sections cut and deburred, use a fine permanent marker, like a sharpie, to draw a straight line along one side of each tube section, and mark a line across where the middle is. Then measure 2cm back from the middle line towards one end and mark another line across at this point (we will call this point X).  Use a hole punch to leave a dimple at point X then using a drill and a 4-5mm drill bit (it's easier with a drill stand but with care it can be done by hand) start drilling into the dimple at point X, but don't drill right through (the idea is to leave a little crater in the tube).   Then slide half of this tube section into one end of your broken tube till the middle line meets the end of the broken tube.  Measure 2cm back from the middle and mark a line across on the outer broken tube, making sure it lines up with the longitudal line you drew earlier.  Place your broken tube with the joiner section inside, on a flat, hard, solid surface, use a hammer and your your hole punch to form a dent in the the outer broken tube...If you have measured everything accurately then this dent will fill the crater you left in the joiner section inside, forming a neat, flush, strong and permanent joint...You only need to do this at one end of each joiner tube if your inner shock cord can be re threaded through as it will hold the sections together by elastic tension, just as with new poles, or if you prefer, simply repeat the process for the other end of each joiner tube, which will ensure the original tube lengths are maintained.
« Last Edit: 21:59:29, 18/05/18 by marmottungsten »

Stube

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Re: Tent Comparisons
« Reply #57 on: 11:24:02, 21/05/18 »
It's a myth that self-inflating mats are heavy.

I have three 3/4 length mats and all weigh less than 300g. Few inflatable mats will match that. Their big advantage is that they will provide some insulation and comfort even when punctured.

The reason self-inflaters can be lightweight is the structural strength provided by the foam enabling lighter weight covering fabrics.

They don't pack as small as the lightest airbed typically about 1.5 litres, but I prefer to use them folded as backpadding for my rucksacks.

The no longer made Karrimor mat is the lightest but delaminated after seven years use , one from a Decathlon sale this year is the heaviest and cheapest at £15, the Multimat is still available for less than £40.





Jim Parkin

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Re: Tent Comparisons
« Reply #58 on: 19:49:21, 31/05/18 »
At 5Kg, no way. The Cinch tent may be OK for car campers but carrying that weight on top of everything else puts it in the unfeasible bin for backpackers.

P.S. how you getting on with your bivvi? I'm thinking seriously of the DD super light pyramid tent, since I could not use my coffin tent fly only.
Bit late to this discussion, but I have gone to a pyramid tent (after a Vnago Banshee), mainly because I wanted something I could sit up in.  Since getting it (Lux Hexpeak), I've realised that unlike the Vango, I can raise the pole if I want more breeze... It's possible to raise it high enough to crawl under the flysheet - good for hot weather or airing the tent in the morning.  It isn't very warm in winter though - most of the inner is mesh, just enough fabric to be higher than me when lying down, so drafts are reduced when sleeping. 

jimbob

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Re: Tent Comparisons
« Reply #59 on: 00:46:51, 01/06/18 »
Thanks for this Jim. Was beginning to think that pyramid  tents were a no go area.   I have decided to stick with my little coffin tent as it has been so easy to deal with and has proven totally water proof to date and also is quite light just on the 1kilo mark. Also I am a tight wad and do not want to take a risk on something I cannot see in an outdoor shop.
Too little, too late, too bad......

 

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