Walking Forum
Main Boards => General Walking Discussion => Topic started by: metanome on 12:35:37, 14/08/20
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I'm off on a camping trip to the New Forest shortly and was planning to try map and compass reading for the first time in a relatively safe and non-remote location. But how does navigation work in practice if you're not in a remote location? By that I mean: say I've plotted a heading on a map, have oriented myself in the right direction using the compass, and have picked a landmark in the distance on the relevant heading, what if there are privately owned fields or other areas which I can't pass through? Or if I am forced to stick to roads of marked paths (which seems to defeat the point of navigating in the first place)?
Is the idea that I really should be heading to a moor or an expansive national park if I'm to practise map reading effectively? If so, can anyone make any recommendations for getting some good practice in while at the New Forest? I'm not very familiar with the geography of it all - are there plenty of areas suitable for sighting landmarks in the distance?
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You have described the basics of walking in a straight line on a bearing. However, in the real world obstacles exist, in remote as well as non-remote locations. If the obstacle cannot be traversed in a straight line (e.g. by climbing over it), you will need to plot a track around it, so that you can end back on the same track once you are past the obstacle. For a field you may well be able to see the other side and it may just be a matter of walking around the field until you reach an identified point of the other side and then continuing on your bearing. If you cannot see through the obstacle, you will need to plot a course and then follow several bearings in order to regain your track. Many of the obstacles should be visible on your map before you set out, so you should be able to plot your course in advance. If you can keep track of where you are on the map as you walk, you should be able to plot a new bearing to your waypoint. The New Forest is a mixture of heathland and forest. In the forest it may be difficult to identify a point to aim for in the distance, so it may be best to start your learning in open areas.
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I see - so part of the planning in advance might involve not navigating to the border of an impassable field to begin with? Though I'm guessing surprise obstacles pop up sometimes nevertheless. Thanks for the help!
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All good advice from Mike.
I don't know your experience so I may be teaching you to suck eggs but I would add that you should start by trying to follow clearly marked paths on the map. This is not always as easy as it sounds but, in easy to navigate areas, it gives you a chance to look at the map and compass without the outcome being too disastrous.
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All good advice from Mike.
I don't know your experience so I may be teaching you to suck eggs but I would add that you should start by trying to follow clearly marked paths on the map. This is not always as easy as it sounds but, in easy to navigate areas, it gives you a chance to look at the map and compass without the outcome being too disastrous.
Sound advice. Can I throw in the use of a compass too. In the old days, when I used to use a compass, I used it to check that the path I was on was heading in the right direction. This is particularly useful in woodland or when faced with a choice of paths, especially when not all the paths on the ground are shown on the map, which is quite common in well walked areas. A compass can also be useful when entering a field to work out where the exit is going to be.
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Basically, use the map. Perhaps set it using a compass, but fundamentally navigate using the map so you can note things to go along, pass, turn at, etc.
People often try to go to compass bearings, pacings etc too early, before they've got a deep feel for the map. It rarely ends well.
Dartmoor for me is one of the easiest places to navigate in the UK. You can go on a bearing and there are lots of nice contour features. Anywhere you have to deviate from a straight line adds difficulty.
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Lots of good advice in the previous posts and only three points I would add that apply particularly to navigating in woodland:
1) Check where you are as often as you can, using every means available. GPS can be problematic in woodland but is mostly OK, so don' t discount it.
2) The New Forest isn't exactly remote. Listening carefully can tell you roughly where the rails and roads are, as a check on your estimated position.
3) Even though it's difficult, among the trees, to keep to a given compass heading, the compass can be vitally useful in stopping you from walking in circles!
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Can I throw in the use of a compass too. In the old days, when I used to use a compass, I used it to check that the path I was on was heading in the right direction. This is particularly useful in woodland or when faced with a choice of paths, especially when not all the paths on the ground are shown on the map, which is quite common in well walked areas. A compass can also be useful when entering a field to work out where the exit is going to be.
Seconded most definitely O0
I experience all of the above situations when walking in the Chilterns.
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Thanks for all the varied perspectives, very useful. So in a wooded area with no view of distant landmarks, a compass can help keep a very general, heading and once through you need to re-establish your location and plot a new heading?
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For a basic guide you could have a look at this
https://getoutside.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/guides/beginners-guide-to-using-a-compass/ (https://getoutside.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/guides/beginners-guide-to-using-a-compass/)
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Is the idea that I really should be heading to a moor or an expansive national park if I'm to practise map reading effectively? If so, can anyone make any recommendations for getting some good practice in while at the New Forest? I'm not very familiar with the geography of it all - are there plenty of areas suitable for sighting landmarks in the distance?
Sighting land marks at a distance makes setting your map easy. Often confusion of where actually are can be in quite close terrain and practice does go a long way towards perfection. I have had more difficulties in actual identifying where I am, in close farmland than on extensive moorland, but the familiarity of using map and compass comes by constant use in whatever terrain you choose to walk in.
On of the problems of reliance on GPS gadgets is a map contains far more information than most people realise, a bit like reading a book where the author has a hidden agenda, The map's hidden agenda is the original surveys were done nearly 200 years ago. Barren moorland has less detail ;) or does it?
I remember setting out for a walk from a village where we had parked at the pub. By the time we got to the outskirts of the village, I was in complete confusion, we carried on thinking I would get some bearings, when I did I realised that there must have been 2 pubs in the village and the one nearest the pub logo was not the pub we had set out from. A quick check with the compass would have put me right, we altered the whole course of our walk and did a better route, than initially planned.
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Most of the time when you are walking and map reading you are really just checking that you are where you think you are or working out where 4 paths meet on the map but 6 do on the ground which you should take.
The last time I actually properly walked on a bearing was 2 years ago and I can not remember the time before that. It is also 2 years ago, though a different walk, since I powered up my ancient GPS to give me an absolute location of where I was as I wasn't entirely sure. Both of these instances were in very poor viability.
That doesn't mean that I can always say exactly where I am but I will know roughly where I am, roughly where I'm heading and how to tell if I've got, or more importantly not got, there.
So I suppose you are right if 'reestablish your location' is checking where you are and 'plot a new heading' is work out where to go next.
The only way to get better at map reading is to do it and doing it with someone else, even if they know no more than you do, is much easier.
One final thing. One day you will be on a hill or in a wood, with the mist swirling round your knees, staring at the map and compass and nothing will line up. You with think to yourself 'this map is wrong and the compass is broken I'm going to press on anyway' at this point remember that strange bloke on the Walking Forum saying to you that the map and compass are NEVER, EVER* wrong. Now head back to the last place you knew where you were and sort yourself out.
*the number of times when this statement is not true is so close to zero as to be negligible.
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For a basic guide you could have a look at this
https://getoutside.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/guides/beginners-guide-to-using-a-compass/ (https://getoutside.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/guides/beginners-guide-to-using-a-compass/)
Or, at the other extreme, you could read this:
https://shavenraspberry.com/shop/navigation-aids/the-ultimate-navigation-manual/
It's not perfect: I spotted a couple of errors at a very detailed level in the Kindle edition. That said, it's by far the most comprehensive and useful guide to navigation on land that I have found.
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One final thing. One day you will be on a hill or in a wood, with the mist swirling round your knees, staring at the map and compass and nothing will line up. You with think to yourself 'this map is wrong and the compass is broken I'm going to press on anyway' at this point remember that strange bloke on the Walking Forum saying to you that the map and compass are NEVER, EVER* wrong. Now head back to the last place you knew where you were and sort yourself out.
*the number of times when this statement is not true is so close to zero as to be negligible.
This is very good advice. Several times in poor visibility I have been sure I knew my location (false summits can easily be misidentified in thick mist). Thereafter the ground did not agree with my map and compass, which I believed must have somehow gone wrong. Of course it was my assumptions about my location that were wrong. Everything made sense once I realised where I had gone wrong and believed the map and compass.
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Thanks for all the varied perspectives, very useful. So in a wooded area with no view of distant landmarks, a compass can help keep a very general, heading and once through you need to re-establish your location and plot a new heading?
Absolutely. One of the big problems when walking in a wood is that the paths tend to wind around a lot and it is very easy to convince yourself that you are on the right path even if you are not. If the map tells you to expect a left turn then it is likely that one will turn up and reassure you that you are on the right track. It is all too easy to convince yourself that any right turns are just kinks in the path since they do not show up on the map. A compass will help you to avoid literally walking in circles.
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Returned from the New Forest. Compass reading a bit of a mixed bag to be honest, but mostly self-inflicted because we confined ourselves largely to the forest tracks and we missed a day out because of particularly atrocious weather. It was nevertheless highly refreshing to use a physical map for the first time in ages, and certainly gratifying to be able to follow a basic route on the map and find real world features (more or less) where I expected them to be - high point was locating a spring and accompanying stream in thick woods based on the map, when I couldn't locate it by sight until I was a couple of feet away from it.
I think next steps is to bed in a little with compass usage a little closer to home, so will get myself a map for my local area. I also picked up a copy of Navigation for Walkers (Julian Tippett) for next to nothing - could have sworn I got the recommendation from this thread, but apparently it came from somewhere else. Has already proved very useful.
I was a little confused on my OS map about magnetic declination (tried to post a link to a photo of the relevant map section on WeTransfer, but not allowed). For navigation, what's the significance of the bit about where true north is located at the centre of the East and West sheets? If Magnetic north (and its variance from Grid north) is what is used for orienteering, I would have thought that would be the leading sentence of the 'North Points' section? Also, does the fact that the representations of the different Norths are 'Diagrammatic only' mean the image is just a placeholder? That I can't actually use the image to measure the difference between Grid, True and Magnetic north? If so, what's the point of including it?
And finally (just to be sure), if Magnetic north is 2° west of Grid north, that means I have to point the N of my compass bezel 2° anti-clockwise to compensate (not the other way around)? Would another way of saying this be that Magnetic north is -2° of Grid north?
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Real world features more or less where you expected them . That is as good as navigation gets.
So much navigation is talked about as if you are in a desert but most of the time walking north or 2 degrees away from north you are still going to get to the feature you are heading for.
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To confuse things for you, magnetic north changes!
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/blog/2019/03/magnetic-north-continues-its-march-to-the-east/ (https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/blog/2019/03/magnetic-north-continues-its-march-to-the-east/)
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Thanks yes, happy with fact that it changes! Less clear on the significance of the explanation on the OS map. Any guidance appreciated.
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Map and compass work does does not have to complicated in much of our countryside. Correcting for magnetic variation is more of a nicety rather than a necessity in the UK. In normal walking as there are usually plenty of features to navigate by and your compass is only really needed to help you face in the right direction and perhaps help you tell one feature from another. The only time you need to invoke the dark arts is crossing featureless country particularly in poor visibility. That can come later.
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Still, would be helpful to have a broad understanding from the get go. Don't want to develop my navigation solely by reference to UK idiosyncrasies and then get snookered if I want to do some hiking elsewhere in the world.
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If you are using just a magnetic compass and an OS map, the two norths you need to be concerned about are grid north and magnetic north. The difference between them is properly known as the Grid Magnetic Angle.
The diagram on the map is meant to show only the E-W relationships of the three norths. The figures given are what really matter. All flat maps have to cheat in order to represent the curved surface of the Earth. This is why the difference between grid north and true north varies slightly around and between map sheets. The discepancies are tiny over the area covered by an Explorer map and can be ignored; if you ever do need to consider true north, just use the figure for the centre of the map. If I remember rightly, the Landranger maps, covering four times the area, give a figure for each corner.
Why is true north mentioned at all on the map? Because some navigator might be using a gyro compass or resorting to a bit of astronav, or because a surveyor or cartographer might have some more esoteric interest in it.
The answer to your last question is "it depends"! If the GMA is 2 degrees west and you have just worked out a heading from the map then, yes, you rotate the bezel 2 degrees anticlockwise before attempting to follow that heading over the ground. If, however, you have just sighted a landmark, you need to rotate the bezel 2 degrees clockwise before plotting the landmark's bearing on the map. Some compasses allow you to preset the GMA to save you all that fiddling about.
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Thanks yes, happy with fact that it changes!
I meant that Magnetic north in the UK has changed a lot in the years since I learnt to use a compass at school, so there is much less variation at the moment. If I remember correctly the magnetic variation may have been something like 7 or 8 degrees west when I was at school. In some parts of the UK it is now 0 or only 1 degree west. I rarely add the variation these days but I did do it religiously at one time. You do just turn the compass 1 degree (if the variation is 1) anti clockwise eg 120 becomes 121 if the variation is west. In a few years the variation may be east and you would subtract 1 degree so 120 becomes 119 and you would turn the compass clockwise.
See the link below, some places are now positive east and not negative west in the UK!
www.magnetic-declination.com/Great%20Britain%20(UK)/Greenwich/901867.html (http://www.magnetic-declination.com/Great%20Britain%20(UK)/Greenwich/901867.html)
It is a handy website, you can check the magnetic variation for other countries on it too.
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In practical terms magnetic variation can be ignored in uk, it's impossible to navigate so accurately using a hand held compass that a few degrees makes a significant difference.
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I certainly don't worry about magnetic variation at the moment as it is so small. Back when I was taught map reading in the school cadet force, it was about 7 degrees, more significant.
I still remember
Map to Grid - Get Rid
Grid to Map - Add
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In fact down near the New Forest, magnetic declination is practically zero.
Latitude: 50° 50' 13.8" N
Longitude: 0° 47' 50.5" W
FISHBOURNE
Magnetic Declination: +0° 0'
Declination is POSITIVE (EAST)
Inclination: 65° 54'
Magnetic field strength: 48693.6 nT
https://www.magnetic-declination.com/
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Excellent, appreciate all the helpful replies (this is a much more engaged forum than some I have used in the past). Thanks Gone West for the explanation of the North points, that makes perfect sense.
So with the variation of Magnetic north, and in the current case of the UK I assume there must basically be a meridian (not sure if I'm using that word correctly) where, depending on whether you are East or West of it, the declination is either positive or negative?
Also a side question - how can I contact the site admins, I couldn't find any contact details anywhere? I have an issue with my account I need to discuss.
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In fact down near the New Forest, magnetic declination is practically zero.
Latitude: 50° 50' 13.8" N
Longitude: 0° 47' 50.5" W
FISHBOURNE
Magnetic Declination: +0° 0'
Declination is POSITIVE (EAST)
Inclination: 65° 54'
Magnetic field strength: 48693.6 nT
https://www.magnetic-declination.com/ (https://www.magnetic-declination.com/)
There seems to be some confusion about declination, variation, etc. Sites like the one above, when they quote declination, are quoting what sailors call variation, which is the difference between magnetic north (at a given place and time) and true north. Magnetic north is variable with respect to place and time but true north, by definition, points along the local meridian towards the geographic north pole and is essentially invariant. Accordingly, true north is the north which all navigators, surveyors, cartographers and earth scientists can agree about, world wide. It is, in that sense, the gold standard, provided the underlying ellipsoid (datum) is also agreed. The modern gold standard for that is WGS84. The OSGB36 datum on which our OS maps are based is different but the difference is of little relevance to a walker.
Notwithstanding the above, when we use OS maps we use grid north, not true north. These are the same only on the meridian at 2 degrees west, or 400km easting, in OS terms. Because of the way the grid is defined, these two norths are different everywhere else. Where I am, true north is 2 degrees east of grid north. I am lucky because magnetic north here is currently 1.28 degrees west of true north, which means my compass points to grid north within about three quarters of a degree, which I can live with!
Someone walking near Cranbrook, in Kent, is not so lucky. There, true north will be 2.5 degrees west of grid north and the local variation is 0.43 degrees east. The local grid magnetic angle (GMA) there is therefore about 2 degrees west. Some may still regard this as negligible but I don't. It's comparable with the reading error of a mirror compass and greater than that of a prismatic sighting compass. More importantly, it's a systematic error which will never be "averaged out" no matter how many compass readings are taken. It's enough of a GMA to be taken properly into account, in my view.
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If you can navigate with a hand held compass to an accuracy of less than 5 degrees I'd be amazed. In my youth I was a national level orienteer, and did lots of detailed navigation in the Army, 5 degrees was always the quoted accuracy variation.
I'm not sure what others were talking about but the variation I was referring to was between grid north and magnetic north, true north is never considered when map reading.
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Variation and deviation, true N, grid N and Mag N are subtleties that matter to aviators and mariners (or at least they did once upon a time). As Sussamb says, you would have be good to able to walk with such a degree of accuracy. Just do a little trigonometry. If you could walk a mile in straight line and failed to correct for a 2 degree difference between grid and magnetic, you would still only be around 60 yds away from where you expected to be.
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If you can navigate with a hand held compass to an accuracy of less than 5 degrees I'd be amazed. In my youth I was a national level orienteer, and did lots of detailed navigation in the Army, 5 degrees was always the quoted accuracy variation.
I'm not sure what others were talking about but the variation I was referring to was between grid north and magnetic north, true north is never considered when map reading.
I agree with you that when walking on a heading, 5 degrees is about as good as it gets, and that corresponds well with the inherent capabilities of a normal baseplate compass. That's enough for "dead reckoning" navigation but when it comes to establishing a fix (which every so often we must), we tend to rely heavily on terrain association and a good map to get more accuracy. That works well for most of us, most of the time. In more challenging environments, such as woodland or, conversely, feature-poor moors we may have to rely on accurate back-bearings or resection using features quite far away. For those situations, we need a better sighting compass, IMHO. A mirror compass can give us 2 degrees accuracy with care. A prismatic compass is twice as good as that, but you'll have to go to a chandlers to find a good one, these days, at a reasonable price!
The term "variation" was (AFIK) defined long ago, by mariners to mean the difference (E or W) between magnetic north and true north. The term "declination" is never used, at sea, as a synonym for "variation" because it is used instead to describe a completely different kind of angle in astro-navigation. The two norths for mariners are true north and magnetic north. The lines on a marine chart are lines of latitude and longitude. The latter are aligned N-S (true) and the chart projections commonly used (Mercator and Polar) cause lines of longitude always to be straight lines. In the former projection, lines of latitude are also straight lines; in the latter they are concentric circles. Marine charts do not utilise a regular grid and there is therefore no such thing as grid north.
On land, we use gridded maps because we can (there are technical reasons why regular square grids are feasible only for relatively small areas and won't work on oceanic scales) and because they are much more convenient. Consequently, it is grid north which is most useful. As I said in an earlier post, grid north (be it UTM, OS or whatever) cannot be the same as true north, except at one designated meridian. Therefore, the angle between magnetic north and grid north is nearly always different from the "variation" described above. This is why I chose to use the term Grid Magnetic Angle (GMA) in my previous post.
I've looked up "magnetic declination" and in every definition I've seen it is identical to "variation" i.e. it is related to true north, not whatever grid north one might happen to be using. Misuse of these terms is confusing and if this applies to military training (which I hope it doesn't) it's positively dangerous. Imagine what might happen if an SAS soldier were to call in a missile from a ship using a bearing which the soldier and the sailor interpreted differently!
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Apart from proving you can do it...what is point nowadays of navigating with a compass as opposed to a GPS?
What are the advantages?? (Yes..I know ability to interpret a map is necessary...but GPS doesn’t magically stop you understanding a map!)
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Apart from proving you can do it...what is point nowadays of navigating with a compass as opposed to a GPS?
What are the advantages?? (Yes..I know ability to interpret a map is necessary...but GPS doesn’t magically stop you understanding a map!)
Light weight.
No power requirements.
No subscriptions.
Plus, for me personally I find using a compass quicker to glance at and follow in low viz on a bearing, than a GPS. So for me, actually better in those limited circumstances too.
Don't get me wrong my standard navigating technique in low Viz these days is... I use GPS for location. I then set my compass from the GPS map, takes seconds to do. Then I follow the bearing on my compass. O0
There are also those frequent occasions when navigating by eye, where you lose sight of your next way point due to an obstruction, typically walking into the base of a hill or in intermittent cloud. It's so simple to just set a compass bearing, before the obstruction obscures your view, then follow it until you pick up the sighted way point again.
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Light weight.
No power requirements.
No subscriptions.
Plus, for me personally I find using a compass quicker to glance at and follow in low viz on a bearing, than a GPS. So for me, actually better in those limited circumstances too.
Don't get me wrong my standard navigating technique in low Viz these days is... I use GPS for location. I then set my compass from the GPS map, takes seconds to do. Then I follow the bearing on my compass. O0
There are also those frequent occasions when navigating by eye, where you lose sight of your next way point due to an obstruction, typically walking into the base of a hill or in intermittent cloud. It's so simple to just set a compass bearing, before the obstruction obscures your view, then follow it until you pick up the sighted way point again.
That’s an excellent summary.
And I must admit that I do quite often use a compass when a “fairly rough direction” will do...e.g. if you know if you keep walking on more or less right direction you are going to hit a rail feature, and know which way you want to follow the rail feature once you hit it.
But..for pin point navigation especially in bad visibility...the GPS will be coming out of rucksack before the words “Jack Robinson” can be uttered.
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Apart from proving you can do it...what is point nowadays of navigating with a compass as opposed to a GPS?
What are the advantages?? (Yes..I know ability to interpret a map is necessary...but GPS doesn’t magically stop you understanding a map!)
Broadly, I'm with BuzyG on this one. To give you another reason, though, it's possible, now and then, just to want to navigate with a map and compass. Geeky, perhaps, but it can add interest (for me) to a solo walk. As a "born" scientist/engineer, as someone who once sailed a lot and as a onetime member of the Royal Institute of Navigation, I just can't leave stuff like this alone. ::)
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My GPS has a compass screen and is clipped to my shoulder strap so is instantly accessible. If I am likely to be out in poor visibility I will have loaded the gps with a route. This had 2 advantages over the standard compass. If I need to do the handheld bit, I already know where I am and I can just walk, keeping the arrow on the line. If I am pushed off my line by an obstacle such as a bog, I can see how far off line I am and converge gently on my intended route. My gps can be set to alarm if I stray too far off route. Provided I am on, or close to, my intended line it stays silent. If my get more than a predetermined distance off route, it will give a beep to draw my attention so I do not even need to look at it - I can just enjoy the walk and picking my line. I find that I make much better progress as a result.
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Light weight.
No power requirements.
No subscriptions.
Plus, for me personally I find using a compass quicker to glance at and follow in low viz on a bearing, than a GPS. So for me, actually better in those limited circumstances too.
Don't get me wrong my standard navigating technique in low Viz these days is... I use GPS for location. I then set my compass from the GPS map, takes seconds to do. Then I follow the bearing on my compass. O0
There are also those frequent occasions when navigating by eye, where you lose sight of your next way point due to an obstruction, typically walking into the base of a hill or in intermittent cloud. It's so simple to just set a compass bearing, before the obstruction obscures your view, then follow it until you pick up the sighted way point again.
I bet you use a pen and paper or pocket calculator to fill in a spreadsheet too ;D
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I bet you use a pen and paper or pocket calculator to fill in a spreadsheet too ;D
What's a pen. ;D
As for using a pocket calculator, I have a mk1 Cranium, full of wee cells. that still runs fine on Weetabix. If that can't do the job, I use a computer. ;)
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A compass may be fine for many situations such as highlands , Welsh hills , Dartmoor etc etc , but if you are going to take a walk in many of the Midlands counties like Warwickshire or Worcestershire then you are forever changing direction to go round field edges , estates , farm buildings and the list goes on & on . It is virtually all fenced off one way or another .
So a bearing toward a way point is not an option because in low lying and reasonably flat land , as in these counties you do not get to see one or head toward , that is further away than a few hundred yards any way .
But yesterday at Hay Bluff in Wales with my paper map tile in pocket , and the high winds & some rain , I still relished using my little & very, very practical gps rather than clinging onto my paper map .
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There was that glorious moment when I was in a minesweeper out of Dartmouth learning to fix a ship's position using a bearing compass. The process was the usual take 3 bearings on known objects, draw 3 lines on a chart and Bingo, we were somewhere in the resulting triangle. This process was repeated ad nauseam but at one point I made an error and I ended up with an odd looking triangle. The boss asked what I was going to do, to which the staff reply was take the bearings again and replot. He then asked me what I should tell the captain in the interim. The book said I should assume I was in the corner of the triangle closest to danger and advise the captain accordingly so I told him to go left at the next set of lights and head for the harbour as I had us in Weymouth High Street!
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Here's my take.
If you are walking then a 1:25000 map with its field boundaries and extra details is invaluable. With experience and walking greater distances being self sufficient (TGO Challenge for example) then 1:50000 will suffice. I take advantage of an OS subscription to plot the route and print it out. The paper sheet is what I use to navigate. Usually it is not necessary to consult a compass. A compass can be useful for orientating the map in the same position as the ground. It is also useful to determine which path to take by comparing the direction on the map with the direction of the path. On featureless moorland crossings a compass is invaluable for transferring a bearing to walk on from map to the ground (usually by sighting a feature on the ground and walking to it, ideally counting steps).
Of course when you get lost a way of position fixing becomes vital. A sextant or more likely nowadays Sat Nav is useful.
I personally find following a track on a Sat Nav very limiting as I then lose the big picture and get tied up with electronics.
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I'm not sure what others were talking about but the variation I was referring to was between grid north and magnetic north, true north is never considered when map reading.
I was and I assume most other people were too. As a walker I have never once even thought about where true north is in 45 years of using a map and compass.
I have read the rest of the posts with interest. I still prefer to use a map and compass to navigate with GPS as backup if I need to check where we are. I admit to using GPS and Viewranger to navigate when I am feeling lazy ;)
@ ninthace, I planned this weekend's 3 day trip to Scotland using a paper OS map and a piece of string with mile markers on it, then counted the contour lines to work out how much ascent. I could have plotted the routes on the viewranger app on the laptop but what fun would there be in doing that? ;) ;D
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I was and I assume most other people were too. As a walker I have never once even thought about where true north is in 45 years of using a map and compass.
I have read the rest of the posts with interest. I still prefer to use a map and compass to navigate with GPS as backup if I need to check where we are. I admit to using GPS and Viewranger to navigate when I am feeling lazy ;)
@ ninthace, I planned this weekend's 3 day trip to Scotland using a paper OS map and a piece of string with mile markers on it, then counted the contour lines to work out how much ascent. I could have plotted the routes on the viewranger app on the laptop but what fun would there be in doing that? ;) ;D
How quaint - you will be telling me you have a map case next! ;D
I like my gps and/or phone because it leaves me free to walk without using a map and get that smug feeling when I sometimes glance at it to find I am exactly where I thought I was!
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How quaint - you will be telling me you have a map case next! ;D
No, I don't have a map case :)
The paper map and tablet are put in beefys stretchy back panel of his rucksack for ease of access if I need to check either.
I end up carrying neither :D
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'in 45 years of using a map and compass' No way April......you're just a slip of a girl!
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'in 45 years of using a map and compass' No way April......you're just a slip of a girl!
Sadly, I am no longer a slip of a girl. I am an old codger now :D
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in 45 years of using a map and compass.
Sadly, I am no longer a slip of a girl. I am an old codger now :D
Just think, she might not have started using a map and compass till she was 30!!!
{Ducking for cover)
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Just think, she might not have started using a map and compass till she was 30!!!
{Ducking for cover)
;D
I could tell you the age I started learning to map read but that would give my age away. I was very young mind :D
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Also a side question - how can I contact the site admins, I couldn't find any contact details anywhere? I have an issue with my account I need to discuss.
How to reach the admin? Do they post on the forum themselves?
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http://www.walkingforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=5107.0 (http://www.walkingforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=5107.0)
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Thank you kindly.
I'm off on a solo walk in the Peak District on Tuesday with a view to getting more used to using map and compass. Again wish I could post a screenshot, but on the OS Maps mobile app it's basically the 'Crowden' route of 14.7km found at, wait for it, Crowden.
One my main goals of the trip is to try and get used to identifying real world features from the map along my way. Got some good ideas already from Navigation for Walkers, but any other pointers in pursuit of that (or indeed anything else worth hearing) gratefully received!
Also not sure why I keep managing to insert ' ' tags into my posts...
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The [size] tags appear to be an irritating glitch on this forum.
As a side issue, I'm not sure that it is a good idea to use your email address as your user name. Welcome to the forum in any case., :)
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Hence why I'm trying to reach the site admins ;)
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Hence why I'm trying to reach the site admins ;)
Fair comment. I would just abandon your current account and start again with a new user name, perhaps just drop the @gmail.
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The [size] annoyances often happen when you edit. Once you've posted you can modify your post and edit them out if they are being a real pain.
Another way to contact admin is to report your own post.
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Fair comment. I would just abandon your current account and start again with a new user name, perhaps just drop the @gmail.
I think the problem is that the email address will remain visible to crawlers (bots) and end up on email lists used by spammers. Best if admin changes the account's username.
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Yes indeed, have PM'd admin to that effect. Less fussed about it being visible to humans, it's the bots I'm wary of.
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Did my Peak District hike yesterday. A small timeline of key events:
- Set off from the car park using my map and within the first 2 mins, met two walkers heading past me who confirmed I was walking squarely in the wrong direction...
- Within the next 20 mins, got completely thrown by a ROW, marked prominently on the map as a 'recreational route', which as far as I could tell from the map ran directly up the side of a quarry. Couldn't for the life of my find any sign of a path, and spent a good hour mulling over this and trying to identify it (unsuccessfully)
- While mulling that over, got a great view of a vulture circling (the car park was buzzing with photographers trooping off to a different point to catch a glimpse)
- Using my map, took an alternative route up to/in to the quarry, with the intention of rejoining this recreational route. Was certain I had matched a key map feature with a real-world feature (a tiny square on the map was, I believe, some sort of ruined stone service building at the quarry) - the ROW was marked as being straight on from there, but again I came up against quarry/cliff sides.
- Sought out a ridge on the edge of the quarry for my lunch break and believe I inadvertently found a route to rejoin the ROW. But it was fairly steep and very rough, and after my earlier difficulties, have to say I lost my nerve. I retraced my route out of the quarry and skirted round it using an alternative track. Was intending to follow path marked on map (which I was able to match up to my surroundings) to try and rejoin the ROW further along my planned route, but decided to do my legs a favour and call it a day.
I also did some basic compass work and as elementary as I'm sure this is, was pleased to be able to use changing contour lines to estimate what point I'd got to along a rising path (though I would have been completely flummoxed if I didn't have GPS to fall back on).
Should also say that, despite warnings from multiple sources not to overestimate my fitness, I did it anyway. Wasn't able to complete my planned route (not even close). I also really struggled when descending a narrow, muddy path (which in parts looked and felt more like a stream), so will consider whether walking poles might be a worthwhile investment.
Today I'm tired, sunburned and mostly very gruntled.
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Many, many people make the car-park mistake - particularly if you don't orient your map as you think it won't matter for the first few minutes. It's especially difficult when you've parked at a busy car park with many paths leading off to different places, often in parallel to each other before they branch out. Don't worry about it, take it as a lesson and a good habit to get in to is taking a rough compass bearing down the path direction you're taking and see if this lines up with your expectations. If you take a southerly bearing and you know you should be going west, perhaps you've taken the wrong path.
Regarding ruined buildings and map features, it is worth distinguishing between linear features and spot features. For example a linear feature like a fence may or may not be there (yet may still be marked), same with a small building or sheep fold. That said, the contour lines are surveyed using satellite and therefore are accurate representations of the ground, so if you are searching for a spot feature (like a ruined building) you may want to use a contour feature alongside this. For example a stream often produces a re-entrant feature through erosion and being able to remember to stop your search for a spot feature and turn back for the spot feature you're looking for can save huge amounts of time (this is called using a catchment/catching feature).
Best advice I can give is keep on paying attention to contours and geographic features (pick big features if possible) and the difference between micro and macro nav. A lot of the navigation books seem to think everyone needs to spend their time pacing out 300-400m on a bearing to a specific point, which is very micro nav, but in real life you're doing most of your nav on the macro basis.
Worth taking a navigation course if you're serious about really kicking up your skills - loads of good providers who offer this.
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Dont beat yourself up over getting the wrong exit from a car park, we've all done it.
Frequently there are a number of possible routes, none seeming to match the map, which isn't really designed to show the level of detail / /feature to micro-navigate in eg the edge of a town.
In the absence of a signpost such as 'fells this way' , looking beyond the man-made, can we see the hill, where is the sun? Can I orientate my map? Have the kids got a better idea from their phones (dont laugh!)
Sometimes its just a case of getting clear of the buildings so we can then see where we are.
Stick with it, you're building experience and it gets better every time O0
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Just been looking at the map and I cannot see any mention of a recreational path. I guess you are talking about a green pecked line heading NE through the quarry from SK 072 994 to SK 074 999 or thereabouts and the square building at SK 075 999? Just looking at the line of that path sets of alarm bells. It is far too straight and confident for the terrain which indicates that it could be another one of the figments of the Definitive Map. Compare it to the black pecked lines in the same area. You this a lot in wild country where the green lines head confidently off in straight lines or sweeping curves without reference to the underlying contours and terrain. If you are using the OS website, a tip I can offer is to check your proposed route against the aerial picture to see if the line of the path actually exists on the ground. Failing that, have a look at in GoogleEarth.
If I have got the Crowden, disregard - I am talking cobblers.
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Didn't realize the car park thing was such an established mistake, reassuring to hear that! As forgotmyoldpassword and windyrigg suggest, I think I may have attached myself too closely (at that point) to my map, and not enough to the compass.
ninthface, you're absolutely right, I see it's marked as a path, not a recreational route. The second half of my planned route was down the Penine Way from Black Hill (which is marked on the map as a recreational route), and at some point I must have conflated that section with the section I was on. All part of the learning process...
You said the missing path may be 'one of the figments of the Definitive Map' - does that mean it mean just be a historical holder, e.g. possibly from before the quarry itself in use? If not, why would a ROW be established up the side of a quarry? I'd actually read in Navigation for Walkers before I set off that I should be wary of green lines not accompanied by black lines, but it must have slipped from my mind - definitely adding that pointer to my mental store now.
Also, can someone recommend a resource (ideally a website) which can help with map notation when planning a route? I don't know if there's a standard system, but I was reading somewhere about triangles with a dot in them vs. circles with a dot in them etc. I freestyled my own notation when planning this last route, but it's a bit of a mess and very inconsistent.
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Yes, the "car park problem" is well known. There are two groups of walkers, those that have taken the wrong route out of the car park and fibbers :) I made the mistake once in the New Forest a long while ago. In the direction I needed to leave, there were 2 paths about 10 ft apart disappearing into the woods. As soon as I got into the woods I realised I had chosen the wrong one as it started to curve in the wrong direction - a short walk between the trees on a bearing got me on the right one.
Who knows what was in the mind of City Hall when they drew the Definitive Map? I believe it was very much a paper exercise with people drawing on the lines they were told to for whatever reason. Barewirewalker could bore for England on the subject I am sure ;)
As to map notation. Can't help I'm afraid - I am a digital maps person and have been since 2005 so my hard copy routes are just a magenta line on a sheet of A4 printout or a gps/phone screen. I remember in the days when I used MemoryMap, you could printout a route card giving the bearing and distance between waypoints but I don't bother these days.
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Remember that rights of way on the map (eg the green pecked line mentioned upthread) do not mean there is a physical path there. It is the black 'pecked' lines that show them. Often they coexist and you can see one under the other. I don't know the area in question, but it could be that the right of way predates the quarry.
And, yes, car parks! I train and assess navigation at all levels but still think very hard leaving the carpark.
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I think it's important to remember that in real woods (I'm discounting pine plantations!) paths have lives of their own. They move, and expecting the definitive map (or indeed any map) to reflect reality is asking a lot.
Trees fall. Paths get boggy. People make diversions when they encounter blockages. We follow lines of least resistance! Animals make paths, which people sometimes follow. These new paths are followed by those who follow and they become the new 'best paths'. But they in their turn get boggy or blocked and new detours are created. And so on.
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Yes, I think with the route I'd initially planned, I was deferring to my book, which states that 'these paths are not public' (although it acknowledges it's a grey area).
Still a little unsure of the proper form here - there were a few other people who I passed yesterday going along the same black path I eventually settled on, and the landscape was such I could never have imagined someone challenging me. How do others approach it? Use a path unless there's a clear sign to the contrary (lack of style at field boundary, a physical sign, a path leading into someone's garden etc.)? Don't want to too precious at the expense of enjoying my walks (esp. if I'm following convention), but don't want to merrily charge across someone else's property when not welcome.
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Was it on Access Land? If so, not a problem.
Otherwise, could be somewhere with established access.
Or just somewhere that the owner turns a blind eye to as long as no-one does anything stupid.
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I just spotted a grid reference upthread, so I've pulled out a map to look.
If I'm in the right area and looking at the same map version as you, the ROW through W is not marked as having a physical path. The physical path goes through B.
The land within the brown shading is fine for access.
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Thanks yes, now see the brown shading. What do W and B refer to?
And another question about symbols. The key has a dashed or solid black single or double black line as signifying 'Other road, drive or track, fenced or unfenced'. Can you confirm that a double dashed black line signifies a relatively substantial unfenced path, and a single dashed line would show a somewhat smaller unfenced path? I walked both paths that split at at 073 999 yesterday, and the only distinguishing feature I can really remember between the two is that one was more diminutive than the other.
And if that's the case, then presumably a double or single solid black line indicate a larger or smaller fenced path, respectively (rather than a path that is fenced on both sides or one)?
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I cannot see the W and B you refer to.
Basically a single pecked line is a path and a double pecked line is a track with no hedge/wall/fence. What they look like in reality depends on the season and how much they are used. They can anything from concrete farm highways to completely invisible. If they are on Open Access Land you are free to use them, if not then technically you are trespassing. The orange versions are paths or tracks that the landowner has agreed to let the public use. Occasionally, they may be closed but it is unusual.
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I was referring to the W and B mentioned in archaeoroutes' post. Thanks for the other info
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I was referring to the B and W of Brockholes Wood.
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I would also second GoneWest's endorsement in post #12 of Lyle Brotherton's "Ultimate Navigation Manual" - I agree it's the best book on navigation out there. O0 It also is very good on the use of Global Navigation Satellite Systems (GNSS) particularly with dedicated outdoor GPSr devices, but now could be usefully updated to cover current smart phones and 'GPS' apps.
Lyle sets out a series of lesson plans for newbies, intermediate, advanced and expert users alike so there is always something to learn or brush up on irrespective of your experience. It can be picked up new for around £12 inc P&P. Lyle has also produced a series of videos available on YouTube.
Another simpler free and very useful reference especially for novices is the Navigators Dozen.This is very readable of the twelve most important navigation skills was originally developed by the Mountaineering Council of Scotland (now called Mountaineering Scotland). It has been around for quite a while and has stood the test of time. This can be easily found online and an excellent pdf version adapted for DoE Gold participants is available on the Meadows Open Gold (meadowsdofe.org.uk) website. This website also has an excellent navigation resources page with links to many other sites and to the excellent series of navigation videos produced by Glenmore Lodge (the highly respected Scottish national outdoor training centre). O0