Walking Forum

Main Boards => General Walking Discussion => Topic started by: Toxicbunny on 23:19:52, 02/07/18

Title: aggressive cows
Post by: Toxicbunny on 23:19:52, 02/07/18
Hi,
A quick query. A local walk I go on has now got cows with calves on. Not only I but other walkers have reported that its inaccessible due to these cows. They chase you, even if you think you can make it across the field walking calming doing everything as per the countryside code.  I reported it and I'm not the only one too. It was reported to the council Row officer. The gist of the answer was that cows with calves are dangerous  ::) and it was a hazard perhaps we should avoid. To me its the wrong answer. It is a public right of way there on the maps and it is to access a local wood. The only other route is to walk along a dangerous main road with no footpath a long route round. Is there any higher authority that I can take this to above the council.  All we are asking is that the farmer controls his cows ( he has lots of fields and is quite able to keep them in another)
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: sussamb on 23:41:32, 02/07/18
While I understand your concern the farmer is within his rights to keep his cows and calves there.  Equally you may deviate from the ROW to avoid them.
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: fernman on 08:32:40, 03/07/18
you may deviate from the ROW to avoid them.

Really? While the subject of cattle has often been discussed on here before, that is new to me. Most of us probably do just that, but are you saying it is legal? What is your source please?
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: Toxicbunny on 08:51:28, 03/07/18
While I understand your concern the farmer is within his rights to keep his cows and calves there.  Equally you may deviate from the ROW to avoid them.

  hi could you tell me or point me to the article in the law that states this.  I appreciate that a farmer is in his rights to keep cattle there however it is a Public Right or Way  that's been there many many years. Sometime I feel landowners do this to stop walkers.
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: Lowlander on 10:18:10, 03/07/18
Although I am sure there are a few farmers who find it funny seeing some city dwellers run in fear, I don't think it's a deliberate placing of obstacles. Walking routes often go through the easiest accessible fields. Also easiest for a farmer to get his mums and babies. Same goes for the sheep with lambs. They keep them close and accessible. In April I had to jump a fence too for a herd of protective cow-mums. Haha, it was more than adventurous. I made sure I didn't jump into another field with trouble of course. Outside Carlisle I walked through a field with a sign saying 'Caution: Bull in field!'. I walked close to the fence so I could jump over with my backpack and everything. Nothing happened. Wonder who farmed there?
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: gunwharfman on 10:25:02, 03/07/18
When I get the chance I'm going to see if my 130db personal alarm helps me if cattle get too close? Yes, cows can be a right nuisance and dangerous as well. They can move fast as well! I've experienced a charge before and taken a biff in the chest, she knocked me completely off my feet. After reading Robert Louise Stevenson's 'Travels with a Donkey in the Cevenne' perhaps it might be useful for me to make a 'goad' for myself?

I have met people before who carry horse riding whips, simple and light, for rogue cows, dogs, pigs and so on.

Having walked a lot in France I have always been grateful that except for the odd occasion, cows and humans seem to be often separated by fences or electric lines, which makes for comfortable hiking.

My routine if bothered by charging cows, is to immediately drop my rucksack to the floor and leg it to a safe place, then wait awhile until they wander off, they always do. When clear I just wander back to collect.
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: Toxicbunny on 11:54:02, 03/07/18
I've walked cow fields  bullock fields and a field with a bull with no issue. These cows are pure Evil. The farmer knows it.  There has been lots of complaints.
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: pauldawes on 12:22:35, 03/07/18
While I understand your concern the farmer is within his rights to keep his cows and calves there. 


Is he?


I think that's at least debate-able. It would surely depend on factors such as breed (is breed known to be aggressive) and actual incident reports.


If there is report after report of incidents, I can't see how farmer can avoid responsibility to isolate specific agressive cows and move them away from fields where a ROW exists.


If he fails to do that he would have no effective defence if something went badly wrong, and he was sued for damages.



Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: pauldawes on 12:35:12, 03/07/18
I've walked cow fields  bullock fields and a field with a bull with no issue. These cows are pure Evil. The farmer knows it.  There has been lots of complaints.


Going back to original question of "is there a higher authority than Council ROW officer...I'm not sure. (Only time I got involved in a similar case ROW was very helpful, and amicably resolved issue with farmer...but ROW officers vary enormously.)


But would assume there are two obvious possibilities. One would be reporting case to police. The second would be to contact one of the local elected councillors.


Both approaches would have probable advantage of letting farmer know that problem is well documented and logged...bringing it home that if anything went badly wrong he couldn't play the "I knew nothing" card.
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: mananddog on 14:21:33, 03/07/18

The opinion of the Rambler - for a change - is worth a read


http://www.ramblers.org.uk/advice/rights-of-way-law-in-england-and-wales/animals-and-rights-of-way.aspx (http://www.ramblers.org.uk/advice/rights-of-way-law-in-england-and-wales/animals-and-rights-of-way.aspx)
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: Slogger on 18:56:06, 03/07/18
Ive never come across an aggreseive cow or bull in a field Ive walked through in over 61 years of long distance, country, fell and mountain walking.
I believe most problems arrise through the actions and nervousness of some walkers and how they manage when accompanied by a dog.
I ignore the beasts and never ever eyeball them, give them and their young wide berth and in general let them know thast i am not a threat and not interested in them.
Of course at times you have to be assertive when they are herded together at a stile or gate or young bullocks run alongside and behind you, but showing them in those circumstances that you in charge with a confident shout not directed at anyone of them in particular, gets them moving to allow you to pass.
People who end up getting stamped and trampled upon, even experienced farmers, have in my opinion made a bad mistake, either ending up in the wrong position or having beaheved as to be seen as a threat to the animal or its young.
That's my thoughts anyway.
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: jimbob on 19:02:27, 03/07/18
Cows are used to being handled by humans, especially milkers which all these calving ones will be soon. Mainly they get used to humans bringing them food, as do sheep, which is why they frequently make a run towards you, they don't realise you haven't got anything for them.
Trouble is they are big, heavy and their brakes are not all that good. If you are nervous around them, or just plain nut happy with them then avoiding them is the better part of valour.
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: sussamb on 19:24:30, 03/07/18
Really? While the subject of cattle has often been discussed on here before, that is new to me. Most of us probably do just that, but are you saying it is legal? What is your source please?


You can deviate from a ROW to get around any obstacle so if you feel cows are being aggressive then they are indeed an obstacle. 
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: Toxicbunny on 21:16:50, 03/07/18

You can deviate from a ROW to get around any obstacle so if you feel cows are being aggressive then they are indeed an obstacle.
Hi,
can you tell me where this is in law as I don't want to be in trouble for trespassing.
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: Toxicbunny on 21:27:40, 03/07/18
Ive never come across an aggreseive cow or bull in a field Ive walked through in over 61 years of long distance, country, fell and mountain walking.
I believe most problems arrise through the actions and nervousness of some walkers and how they manage when accompanied by a dog.
I've walked all my life and been on many farms some cows are aggressive dog or not. These cows have chased walkers without a dog. They chased me with a dog. Cows in general are nosey but a field with them running towards you in a herd is dangerous no matter how many years experience walking. I've been told it is a hazard to cross the public right of way because of the cows which I don't think it is fair. This is my local walk. I could reach my destination by car which is not an option or walk on a very busy road with no footpath facing 60mph traffic alternately  I could take the public right of way that has been there decades but recently Mr Farmer but a herd of cows in there. I don't think its fair that a lot of complaints have been made to the council yet we are told as walkers not to walk it. Hence why I asked for advice as the council ROW seems useless. 
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: jimbob on 22:41:21, 03/07/18
Tresspass  is a civil offence. The farmer  in question could sue you if you went on another route to bypass the cattle but clearly that would cost him a lot of cash, time and effort. Precedence has shown that of the 4 defences available one is that of necessity,where you take emergency action to avoid perceived danger. Your report to the ROW Officer should be logged and can be used as evidence were it to happen to you in future.  if you feel strongly about it you should also inform the police and the farmer in question. That could also be used in evidence.

By the way the other three defences are dealing with an emergency, being there with provable permission of the landowner and/or tenant and lastly through lawful authority I. E. A policeman on duty.

Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: fit old bird on 00:04:11, 04/07/18
I've never come across aggressive cows, plenty of curious ones who follow me. I give them a wide berth, but if they come too close I turn and face them and talk loudly to them, and wave my map. They stop dead in their tracks for a few seconds, who is this crazy person, I walk on, then repeat the manoeuvre several times more until I reach the exit. I don't run away from them because they will chase me.


If I don't like the look of them before I enter the field I find a different route. I don't have to walk into their field, they were there first. I love cows, often stop and talk to them if they are near a gate I am passing. Love their big wet noses.


ilona
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: happyhiker on 09:38:40, 04/07/18
Deleted
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: Lowlander on 11:07:35, 04/07/18
Ive never come across an aggreseive cow or bull in a field Ive walked through in over 61 years of long distance, country, fell and mountain walking.
I believe most problems arrise through the actions and nervousness of some walkers and how they manage when accompanied by a dog.
I ignore the beasts and never ever eyeball them, give them and their young wide berth and in general let them know thast i am not a threat and not interested in them.
Of course at times you have to be assertive when they are herded together at a stile or gate or young bullocks run alongside and behind you, but showing them in those circumstances that you in charge with a confident shout not directed at anyone of them in particular, gets them moving to allow you to pass.
People who end up getting stamped and trampled upon, even experienced farmers, have in my opinion made a bad mistake, either ending up in the wrong position or having beaheved as to be seen as a threat to the animal or its young.
That's my thoughts anyway.




Maybe you have been gifted with knowledge only the 'real' hikers know.
Or you have just been lucky for 61 years.
 O0
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: pauldawes on 11:32:05, 04/07/18



Maybe you have been gifted with knowledge only the 'real' hikers know.
Or you have just been lucky for 61 years.
 O0

My nephew and one of his lads have done a lot of farm work over the years.

Aggressive cows do exist! Or as the nephews lad puts it "Never trust any large farm animal, unless you know them really well".
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: gunwharfman on 11:32:35, 04/07/18
I agree Slogger with most of what you wrote. Unfortunately, some of us have also been unlucky. The cow that biffed me for example.  She was on the edge of a wide farmers tractor track happily munching grass by a large boulder. I quietly and calmly kept to the opposite side of the track and walked calmly towards her to get past. She lifted her head once, saw me, then carried on munching. Both of us were happy. I then realised that she had a calf and he was lurking behind the boulder sheltering in the shade. The calf was startled, panicked and ran away. Mum's mood then changed in an instant. She bellowed furiously and charged at me. Bang, straight into my chest! Luckily she knocked me down a grass bank and didn't follow it through. I landed on my back like a turtle ninja, I just rolled over, jumped up and scarpered! I looked back and she was quietly munching grass again. It was over in seconds!

It was also the moment I discovered the limitations of carbon fibre hiking sticks. In those couple of seconds before impact I managed to raise one stick and in the split second before impact, I whacked the cow across the face! I panicked, it was instinctive! It didn't work at all, I was tumbled down the bank anyway, my carbon fibre stick had just snapped in two!
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: pauldawes on 11:42:02, 04/07/18
I agree Slogger with most of what you wrote. Unfortunately, some of us have also been unlucky. The cow that biffed me for example.  She was on the edge of a wide farmers tractor track happily munching grass by a large boulder. I quietly and calmly kept to the opposite side of the track and walked calmly towards her to get past. She lifted her head once, saw me, then carried on munching. Both of us were happy. I then realised that she had a calf and he was lurking behind the boulder sheltering in the shade. The calf was startled, panicked and ran away. Mum's mood then changed in an instant. She bellowed furiously and charged at me. Bang, straight into my chest! Luckily she knocked me down a grass bank and didn't follow it through. I landed on my back like a turtle ninja, I just rolled over, jumped up and scarpered! I looked back and she was quietly munching grass again. It was over in seconds!

It was also the moment I discovered the limitations of carbon fibre hiking sticks. In those couple of seconds before impact I managed to raise one stick and in the split second before impact, I whacked the cow across the face! I panicked, it was instinctive! It didn't work at all, I was tumbled down the bank anyway, my carbon fibre stick had just snapped in two!

Yes, apart from innate aggression...which is fairly rare...they are large animals that can cause serious "damage" without ill intent.

My next door neighbour worked on farms in his youth...and one of his favourite stories regards milking time at farm when he and the farmer were milking different cows. Being wise he'd picked a really sedate one...which was lucky because one of farm collies ran barking into cow shed...the one being milked by farmer gave farmer an enormous kick.

To quote Roy: "It wasn't flying through the air that did the damage...it was the sudden stop when he hit shed wall".
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: ninthace on 15:07:31, 04/07/18
I had trouble on my last trip abroad. We had to retrace our steps across a field and 2 bullocks decided we had come back to play. They kept doing mock charges. Even when I told them off and faced them down they kept coming back because they liked making Mrs Ninthace twitter. Later the same day we met a group of cows on a ledge path that would not shift; I had to literally shove them out of the way, again to lots of “ I don’t like this” from the distaff side. Another day up the mountain we met a cow that would not give way, lots of head down and stamping, which is never a good sign. l stamped back and “crushed” a lot and eventually her nerve broke.
You have to show them who is boss. Generally, if you approach confidently and loudly they will back down. If the cows have calves, use the same approach but give them plenty of time to react and be far less aggressive in your approach. Avoid the herd space if possible but if you are in a confined area, get as far as to one side as you can so they can filter back past and advance slowly so they have room and time to manoeuvre.
So far this technique has worked for me, even when faced with a large herd that had strayed onto the track of a disused railway. We gently drove them ahead of us for some distance as they did not want to come back past us. Eventually they were blocked by a gate across the track.  The stand to one side and cush plus gentle stick and arm waving worked and once a few got the idea, the rest followed.
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: NeilC on 19:42:35, 04/07/18
Given how big they are and that they kill the odd person here and there, I'm slightly cautious with them but 99% of the time they're fine. I understand the last place you want to be is near a fence or wall when they're coming at you. The people that do die tend to get crushed to death against something. But they can be aggressive if you have a dog and if they are calving.  

 
As for trespass - I wouldn't give it a second thought. The worst that would happen is the landowner would berate you, you'd apologise and leave. That's it. If you've not damaged anything nor been aggressive yourself then there really is nothing they can do on a practical basis. A civil case with no damages, bought for walking across a field, isn't even worth winning.  
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: Murphy on 22:21:14, 04/07/18
Not wishing to repeat my comments about cows previously reported on this forum, Im an experienced walker and I have been seriously injured by cattle and i mean seriiysly ..Advice on being confident, never had a problem etc etc is all well and good ....but I most certainly have had issues on more than one occasion with and without dogs. Im also well aware of fatalities involving walkers and cattle.  The motto is always always be cautious as you never know.
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: pdstsp on 08:57:46, 05/07/18
Caution has to be the best advice.  Four years ago I spent a couple of weeks in hospital recovering from a cycling accident.  One of the people I shared a ward with was a farmer who had been attacked by his own herd - he had very serious brain and other injuries - the memory of the state he was in always haunts me when I cross paths with cows.
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: gunwharfman on 10:57:16, 05/07/18
Working on the principle that knowledge helps, I remember my very first Pennine Way walk. Can't remember the year it was but I met a farmer en route feeding his chickens. As I approached I could see that is face and neck  was black and blue. We started chatting, being polite I didn't mention his face, I assumed he'd been in a punch up in a pub. He told me however, that he had been a cattle farmer for over 50 years. About 14 days previously he had been in his cattle sheds when, as he claimed, for no reason at all, one of his cows just went for him and pushed him to the ground. The cow then proceeded to rage and stamp all over him to the point of unconsciousness. His farmhand heard the noise and rescued him. The farmer then spent some days in hospital, by now his wife had joined us and she told she and their two children were told by a doctor to be prepared for the possibility of his death. Needless to say he fought back and lived. He then showed me the extensive bruises that still remained but were healing all over his torso and legs, by now an amazing variety of colours! He had a couple of broken ribs as well, plus bones broken in one of his hands.
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: barewirewalker on 19:34:02, 05/07/18
Clearly taking an alternative route is the most sensible option. Why does the countryside occupiers' lobby not advocate this, it would solve a safety assessment issue that covers those walkers nervous about livestock, those who recognise truly aggressive animals and be a reasonable cover for the stockman, who may not be too sure of the temperament of is calving dams. The landowner lobby does not want to admit that there any further  reasons that the range of access should be increased.


Field margins are the way to provide additional safe routes. All a farmer has to do is to post a map with field access points to the alternative field margins, and give some warning of the nature of those animals in the field. This shows that he has done a safety assessment. He should be doing anyway in compliance with his insurance policy.


The agricultural industry has not admitted that the increase of single suckler herds over the last 40 years must have increased the risk in potential dam aggression or apparent aggression.


The core issue is the unwillingness of the occupiers lobby in recognising how their occupation affect the wider community.
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: Slogger on 19:49:12, 05/07/18
Like I said Ive never personally had any issues with cows, but certainly err on the side of caution, yes.
I think those experienced walkers that have had bad experiences have been very unlucky, it can happen certainly. I am always confisdent however I do enter cattle fields scanning for possible problems and thinking about quick escape routes.
Unlucky you can be and there's no accounting for those instances, like when my consultant told me to get a bike to help with fitness rasther than keep loading my knees too much. Brand new bike, £1,000 out my pocket. Not been on a bike for 30+ years. Third ride a circular of 30 miles. On way back going round a roundabout at the end of a dual carraigeway, one car approaching. i'm just a few metres from the start of the seperate cycle path. The car approaching the roundabout slowed but never actually stopped instead just as I'm about to pass its front, it accelerates, knocking me and my bike flying. To his credit the driver addmitted responsibilty. I sold the bike a few weeks later. All the reading of the Cycle Craft book, the wearing of high viz jacket, concentrating on roundabout procedure and correct positioning had come to nothing - yes, you can do all the right things but just be unlucky!
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: Andies on 12:47:15, 06/07/18
To be honest up to a few years ago I wouldn't have really given walking through a field of cows much thought beyond common sense, but more recent stories have made me much more conscious now. My own observations suggest that cattle seem rather more sensitive to walkers than they were. Could that be something to do with the breeds and breeding thereof, or are there just more cattle about now?

As I previously referred to on this forum we had a close encounter of the cattle kind on the Pennine Way last year on Blenkinsopp Common, which from other comments suggests there is a recurring problem at this location. We retreated and found another way which did involve a small amount of non access land, this route had gates and stiles which suggested others may have been encouraged that way in any event, albeit there was no signage to that effect.
Title: Re: aggressive cows
Post by: April on 13:48:27, 06/07/18
The motto is always always be cautious as you never know.

I totally agree with this. I have been walking a lot of years. (Well I can get my works pension early next year if I want to so I am quite old :o) I have had a few problems with cows and bulls over the years but thankfully never been injured, I hope you have recovered Murphy. About 20 years ago I was in the Cheviots walking down Copper Snout. I saw cattle about half a mile away and had no concerns at all until I saw one was thundering across the moorland toward me. I had nowhere to go as it was open land, no fence to jump over. I held up my hand when it got closer and said "you're alright, you're alright, you're alright" thinking these would be my last words when it knocked me off my feet. It slowed to a walk and followed me for a while when I carried on walking (with jelly legs) then it stopped and I carried on without it following. Another time I was walking on the Hadrians Wall path near Thirlwall and a bull came charging toward me. I hadn't seen it so it couldn't have been anything I had done to make it charge at me, except dare to walk on the path. Luckily a farmer was on a quad bike, saw what was happening and drove toward the bull and stopped it from coming any closer. There have been a few other incidents with cattle that I won't bore you with. 95% of the time I've had no bother at all with cattle, it is the other 5% that makes you cautious. I always watch any cattle first and see how they are behaving. If they look chilled I proceed and try to give them a wide birth, don't walk in between a calf and the mother. If they are looking a bit boisterous, charging about, I would avoid going into the field they were in.