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Main Boards => News and Articles => Topic started by: Oldtramp on 11:42:11, 20/01/18

Title: Farewell old pal. A moral dilemma
Post by: Oldtramp on 11:42:11, 20/01/18
There's a story today in the papers (Mail, Metro, Sun and others) about a chap who left his 12-year-old collie on Beinn Sgulaird, in vile weather, after the beast lost the use of its legs.   The owner and a companion tried, they say, to carry her, but gave up as conditions worsened


See e.g.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5289949/Climber-inundated-hate-messages-abandons-dog.html


Having got down he slept in the car then went up again next day and ultimately the dog's body was found.


The mountain rescue are pretty sympathetic, saying that it was a rotten decision either way - leave the dog to die or try to hole up on a mountainside in bad weather, calling the MR for help.  I agree, and don't think there's an easy answer------ should you even call the MR for a dog?


But this isn't stopping a lot of abuse (see e.g. readers' comments in the above link) much of it doubtless from folk who've never been up a mountain in bad weather.
Title: Re: Farewell old pal. A moral dilemma
Post by: sussamb on 12:06:05, 20/01/18
By the sound of it the dog would have had to be put down anyway, so while a difficult decision I think it was the right one.
Title: Re: Farewell old pal. A moral dilemma
Post by: fernman on 13:07:31, 20/01/18
To leave a dog you've had for 12 years to die on its own on a mountain, presumably without any shelter even, is pretty heartwrenching.

But humans get similar treatment on Everest.
Title: Re: Farewell old pal. A moral dilemma
Post by: Ridge on 16:22:02, 20/01/18
Awful decision to have to make, I really feel for the poor guy.
Title: Re: Farewell old pal. A moral dilemma
Post by: phil1960 on 16:45:27, 20/01/18
Maybe, just maybe, it wasn’t the smartest move to take the poor aging dog up in the first place. It’s heartbreaking for sure and I’m a dog owner, but as Fernman said above, humans get treated the same on Everest.
Title: Re: Farewell old pal. A moral dilemma
Post by: Jac on 21:58:48, 20/01/18
Maybe, just maybe, it wasn’t the smartest move to take the poor aging dog up in the first place.
Maybe??!!!  Unless the poor dog had a sudden stroke or similar it was an unbelievably stupid move.

as Fernman said above, humans get treated the same on Everest.
Humans deciding to climb Everest know the risks and the possible outcome - this dog had no choice in the matter.

I'm not commenting on the final decision in case the dog did have a sudden totally out of the blue collapse but I would have called the MRT if I couldn't carry my dog - admittedly that would have passed the buck to them but I hope they wouldn't have minded; I believe they go out for cragfast sheep for which I am full of admiration for them.
Title: Re: Farewell old pal. A moral dilemma
Post by: sussamb on 09:30:07, 21/01/18
Maybe??!!!  Unless the poor dog had a sudden stroke or similar it was an unbelievably stupid move.


Sorry but I don't agree with that.  Why just because a dog is elderly should it not go?  I expect to walk in the hills when I'm elderly, or should that be more elderly than I am now!  It seems like the dog suffered an unexpected event and the owner had to make a decision as to what to do next.  Would never have occurred to me to call the MRT out and even then I suspect the dog would have had to be put down. Far better for it to go to sleep naturally.  When my turn comes going the way it did would be ideal.
Title: Re: Farewell old pal. A moral dilemma
Post by: Requiem on 10:25:05, 21/01/18
Like a couple of other people on here the one factor that caused all of this grief was one tiny wrong decision.


I have a Labrador - One of three, but unlike the two year-olds she's getting pretty old and stumbles a lot despite thinking she can keep up with the young whipper-snappers. I really doubt that she'll eventually die after a quiet day crashed on her sofa. She'll die almost certainly after a day tearing around on the meadow, chasing things that theres a law against chasing and generally being the pain that she's been all her life.


Doubtless someone will also criticise ME for letting her out again and shortening her life for all of two, maybe three days - and they'll get a round of [censored] and told to go do one.


The only difference between my right decision and this poor guys wrong decision is that mine won't be 'newsworthy' and deserving of experts opinions.
Title: Re: Farewell old pal. A moral dilemma
Post by: Murphy on 11:09:24, 21/01/18
At what point do we decide a dog is "too old", today, tomorrow or the next day?  Am I too old today, tomorrow or will I be too old the next day?  None of us know the full facts, why decisions are made and decisions are very easy with HINDSIGHT, and a knowledge of "IF ONLY.......", but all feel we are experts and know better than the poor chap who had to make an awful decision.......I took my dog on the fells, mountains, long distance walks right up until the day before he died, which happened to be at home.  Had it been the day before, he would have been in the hills,.  Not only was he elderly, he was blind, but only I can know whether I made the right decision to take him in the hills each day...all I know is he had many years of happy life doing what he loved the most....walking the hills and fells with me.  I know that if I had to make a decision like this poor chap, then from my armchair I really don't know what I would do and would only know at the time by being there.
Title: Re: Farewell old pal. A moral dilemma
Post by: sussamb on 11:52:56, 21/01/18
Well said  O0
Title: Re: Farewell old pal. A moral dilemma
Post by: phil1960 on 14:02:01, 21/01/18
I know a couple who regularly take their dog into the hills with them as I do. In chatting to them they have now decided his hill days are over as he has been struggling for a while, he still goes out of course, but it’s hand picked walks or local ones, the all weather high hill days are no more. They know their dog better than anyone as no doubt this guy did, someone a few of us know on this forum did the same thing. Of course it could well have been a sudden unexpected event, but I stand by my comments, the dog was getting old, the climber should have known the possibility or probability with the weather, no one is perfect I know and hindsight is a wonderful thing, but again I say maybe, just maybe this could have been prevented.
Title: Re: Farewell old pal. A moral dilemma
Post by: ninthace on 14:18:21, 21/01/18
12 is not desperately old for Border Collies. They are a hardy breed, mine went on to 17 before she was euthanised. My daughter has one aged 15 and still going strong. The problem is that they are very good at hiding illness until it suddenly overwhelms them.
Title: Re: Farewell old pal. A moral dilemma
Post by: Islandplodder on 14:41:39, 21/01/18
I have had a few collies.  One struggled on to the bitter end and for the last couple of years I had to keep him away from fences he couldn't believe he could no longer jump.  Another refused to go out with me if I had walking boots on, and would only come if she could get in the car and consider a gentle stroll on the beach, as her faculties declined.  Perhaps dogs are like people, some need to finish with their boots on, some prefer a cossetted old age.
Title: Re: Farewell old pal. A moral dilemma
Post by: tom83 on 14:54:46, 21/01/18
Its very sad, I wouldn't like to be in that situation with either of my dogs. Im not sure I could leave them though, but I have never been in that situation, so I wouldn't know.


I do know I would be absolutely devastated if I did have to leave one of them on a mountain side, which Im pretty sure is how the bloke is feeling now.
Title: Re: Farewell old pal. A moral dilemma
Post by: phil1960 on 15:27:11, 21/01/18
I have had a few collies.  One struggled on to the bitter end and for the last couple of years I had to keep him away from fences he couldn't believe he could no longer jump.  Another refused to go out with me if I had walking boots on, and would only come if she could get in the car and consider a gentle stroll on the beach, as her faculties declined.  Perhaps dogs are like people, some need to finish with their boots on, some prefer a cossetted old age.
Made me smile that  O0
Title: Re: Farewell old pal. A moral dilemma
Post by: Addingham on 01:59:19, 23/01/18
At what point do we decide a dog is "too old", today, tomorrow or the next day?  Am I too old today, tomorrow or will I be too old the next day?  None of us know the full facts, why decisions are made and decisions are very easy with HINDSIGHT, and a knowledge of "IF ONLY.......", but all feel we are experts and know better than the poor chap who had to make an awful decision.......I took my dog on the fells, mountains, long distance walks right up until the day before he died, which happened to be at home.  Had it been the day before, he would have been in the hills,.  Not only was he elderly, he was blind, but only I can know whether I made the right decision to take him in the hills each day...all I know is he had many years of happy life doing what he loved the most....walking the hills and fells with me.  I know that if I had to make a decision like this poor chap, then from my armchair I really don't know what I would do and would only know at the time by being there.


Farewell old pal.Just going through this myself and sad Chippy RIP. I agree with your sentiment entirely.
Title: Re: Farewell old pal. A moral dilemma
Post by: Murphy on 08:10:49, 23/01/18
I feel for you Addingham.  Very sad.
I have a second dog who is now 15 but he is still itching to get out and about, up in the hills, long distance walking, camping etc.  As I said in my earlier post, at what point do I say, "you have to stay at home" - only I can make that decision.......




Title: Re: Farewell old pal. A moral dilemma
Post by: phil1960 on 14:04:49, 23/01/18
I feel for you Addingham.  Very sad.
I have a second dog who is now 15 but he is still itching to get out and about, up in the hills, long distance walking, camping etc.  As I said in my earlier post, at what point do I say, "you have to stay at home" - only I can make that decision.......
Exactly, only you can say that. But equally, surely dogs are like us, I know fit and active people in their 80’s, but also others who can barely walk to the end of the road in their 60’s. What is considered old for one dog, even of the same breed, may be young for another. It isn’t necessarily about age, but whether putting a dog in a certain environment is right for that particular dog. My genuine sympathies to Addingham.
Title: Re: Farewell old pal. A moral dilemma
Post by: Jac on 10:49:27, 24/01/18
I feel for you Addingham.  Very sad.
I have a second dog who is now 15 but he is still itching to get out and about, up in the hills, long distance walking, camping etc.  As I said in my earlier post, at what point do I say, "you have to stay at home" - only I can make that decision.......

My sympathies for you both - the ghastly position we choose to put ourselves in when taking on a dog or any other dependant animal.
Title: Re: Farewell old pal. A moral dilemma
Post by: tonyk on 13:49:51, 24/01/18
 Probably the right thing to as a dog will have far better chance of survival than a human in those conditions.Perhaps the dog had reached the end of its natural life and the harsh conditions finished it off?
Title: Re: Farewell old pal. A moral dilemma
Post by: pauldawes on 17:32:40, 25/01/18
Its very sad, I wouldn't like to be in that situation with either of my dogs. Im not sure I could leave them though, but I have never been in that situation, so I wouldn't know.


I do know I would be absolutely devastated if I did have to leave one of them on a mountain side, which Im pretty sure is how the bloke is feeling now.


Agree 100 percent. I can’t see how anybody reading bare facts of story can really doubt that..the fact that he “slept” in car (I bet he got naff all sleep) and went back up at first light says it all.


One aspect that I can’t make my mind up about is rights or wrongs of calling MRT for a dog recue. Would that be unfair because it would be difficult for them to refuse rescue?(I’m assuming that one would be honest and say it was for a dog, and let them decide whether a rescue could be made WITHOUT risking their own life and limb.)
Title: Re: Farewell old pal. A moral dilemma
Post by: Jac on 08:37:00, 26/01/18
One aspect that I can’t make my mind up about is rights or wrongs of calling MRT for a dog recue. Would that be unfair because it would be difficult for them to refuse rescue? I’m assuming that one would be honest and say it was for a dog, and let them decide whether a rescue could be made WITHOUT risking their own life and limb.

That's what I meant in my first reply. Not that I would expect them to turn out. Asking would at least allow some chance of help if they felt it possible.

Edited to try to remove unintentional italics - failed
Title: Re: Farewell old pal. A moral dilemma
Post by: phil1960 on 09:06:48, 26/01/18
I can’t speak for all MRT’s obviously, but a member of Western Beacons MRT said recently they would almost certainly turn out for a dog, obviously reserving the right to abort should conditions be deemed too dangerous for personnel.
Title: Re: Farewell old pal. A moral dilemma
Post by: forest view on 23:59:50, 02/02/18
Not passing any judgment but in our local MRT the dog always turns out for the human so perhaps ..............?