Perspiration and Condensation

[ninthace]

    I usually like to walk fairly uncluttered in terms clothing (no not that way!).  In the warmer weather a trekking shirt and a pair of Craghoppers will do. If it gets a bit colder I swap to a wicking base layer, perhaps with a light weight fleece jumper if needed.  Anyway to the nub - it has suddenly got a bit colder and blowier in this neck of the woods so the other day I added an outer fleece. Part of the way round I started to feel distinctly damp and the outside of my fleece was quite wet to the touch.  The only possible cause, given the weather at the time, was moisture wicking through and condensing as it met the cold air.
    Today we had a trip out on Exmoor and it was distinctly cold, overcast and quite windy so I wore my Paramo jacket for the first time in ages.  By the time we were a quarter of the way round, I had the same clammy feeling, especially round the arms and shoulders, and water was literally dripping out of my cuffs.  When we finished I had a good look at the jacket.  The lining was damp, particularly over the shoulders.  Again, it hadn't rained so condensation must be the cause.
    I am not sure how to prevent this.  A working body produces heat; nature uses sweat to cool us down by evaporation; warm damp air will condense when it meets a cold surface.  A faster airflow might evaporate the condensation quicker but today we had a force 5 to 6 and it didn't help.  If you did not wear enough to retain body heat then you would not sweat but hypothermia seems a bit drastic.  It is finding that balance to feel comfortable without perspiring given the varying workloads and environmental conditions associated with hiking
    What it does bring to mind though, is all the threads we have had on this forum about leaky jackets.  As others have pointed out before, condensation could well be the cause in may cases and my experience suggests it is easily underestimated as a contributing factor.

[NeilC]

Are you wearing too much for your activity level?

 I'm amazed to hear of sweat dripping from the cuffs of a Paramo. I would not have imagined that was even possible given its construction. Where would it collect like that given there's no membrane to catch it?

I walked all this weekend in the cold weather, in a Paramo and whilst I run hot and sweat a lot, my jacket stayed dry throughout. My baselayer got moist at times and sometimes I was too warm  sometimes (going uphill) and sometimes chilly and needed to add a layer.

When moving, I do tend to err on the sound of staying a bit cold as I dislike being too hot.

[ninthace]

In retrospect, think I was a bit over dressed but the forecast was for significant wind chill.  At the same time, I think I would have chilled significantly had I removed my jacket altogether.  I did half unzip which was more comfortable temperaturewise but did not stop the drip.
I think the drips were caused by condensation wicking under gravity to the lowest point. There is less air circulation inside the arms and shoulders, especially with a pack on, so that is where the problem is worst.
I have a lightweight Wolfskin membrane jacket.  If I wear it zipped up it has a lot less condensation.  Counterintuitively, if I wear it unzipped the sleeves are also drippy but not on the scale of the Paramo.

[BuzyG]

We were expecting it to be cold on the coast path today.  As it happens I still spent most of the day in just my wicking vest and anTshirt. Plus the summer shorts are finally gone for a pair of thin walking trousers.  I did pop a light weight fleece on a couple of times for stops and for a few minutes after each stop.  But I was soon warming up again.  One thing I enjoy about the cooler weather is not sweating all the time.  Took 2.5 LTRs for today's walk.  Drank less than a ltr and we'll hiderated.

[gunwharfman]

I'm not sure about the differences between materials but I don't think I've really experienced the problem described. I have experienced dampness inside my Marmot Precip, my Paramo Alta and my Vaude poncho when I'm excerting myself, if its raining and I'm puffing and panting uphill usually. I've always assumed that the dampness is cause by the type of material these sort of garments are made from.

I do own a fleece but have never taken it with me when hiking, its useless in wind so I leave it at home. If I wear a wind jacket on top then I tend to get hot and sweaty, so for me it has limited use. In the summer I like to wear my bamboo baselayers, plus a shirt, then if I need further warmth I go straight to my Alpkit synthetic jacket. In the colder months I have a Berhaus full zip jacket (Is this a fleece?) which I will wear over my shirt and if need be will put my synthetic jacket on as well.

I've often thought about buying a fleece for hiking but have never actually bought one. Could it be that its the fleece material that helps to create the problem that you have described?

[Innominate Man]

I assume from your report of this problem, that it is a new phenomenon ?
In which case, what has changed in your attire from previous similar walks/conditions ?
I know as we age our skin becomes less taught - but leaking is taking things a bit far 


As far as layering goes - I have a few trusted items which I rotate according to activity/conditions. But, a couple of years ago I decided to add some 'colour' and wore a different mid layer: which was a Mountain Equipment lightweight fleece with a zip collar.
I was walking on Whernside and realised this item, although trendy in colour, wasn't actually a technical piece of gear. I was too hot & uncomfortable and it didn't seem to be wicking like my old faves.


I now wear it at home but never for anything strenuous when walking.
- My thought is, have you brought in an 'alien' garment that is similarly not up to the job ?


Good luck getting to the bottom of this.

[ninthace]

No I have no new kit nor is it a new problem.  I first noticed it a couple of years ago on a trip to Austria when it went unseasonably cold in September and I had to wear the Paramo to keep the cold out. That was when I bought the Wolfskin in an end of season sale. When walking in winter without a jacket, I have even seen the condensation freeze on the outside of my fleece. I do walk fairly briskly but not excessively so.

[NeilC]

I'm just thinking about the weekend we just had: I went for an overnight trip to the Black Mountain with a mate. I took my Autumn gear - soft-shell trousers, base layer, fleece, down jacket, Paramo jacket, gloves and hat. My baselayer was my least warm one - a thin synthetic summer one, and my fleece was also very light. Air temps were around 2-7C but windchill much lower at times. But the sun was out and so I felt warmer than expected when it shined on me. So I hiked in the baselayer and Paramo and even then I rolled the sleeves up at times.

The only time I wore more in the day was when we stopped on a peak or for a cuppa and then I put my down jacket over everything.I wore my hat and gloves most of the time because even though I was warm walking with a pack up hills, the wind was icy. Evening was a different matter and I was bloody freezing other than in a sleeping bag!

Obviously we're all different. My wife generally sticks on merino base layers a big fleece and wears a goretex all day and never seems to overheat. If I did that I'd lost about 10 pounds in sweat. I can't comment on how you feel wearing what you wear but given that we only sweat when we're too hot, I'm thinking that you must be overly warm for quite long periods to be producing that much perspiration but maybe not tuned into it - ie your expectation of how warm your skin should feel doesn't correlate to your core temperature. I remember being told years ago that if you're not slightly cold when you start off, you're overdressed and I've generally stuck to that mantra. There's a difference between feeling a bit of a chill at times and being fundamentally cold and some of us have to accept they cannot be toasty without sweating. I have to embrace that slight chill or be sweating like the proverbial pig.

I'm not 100% sold on Paramo I must say. For me, Paramo comes into its own in a disappointingly narrow range of conditions and is too hot unless temps are quite low. I find i have to manage my temperature almost as carefully as when I wear a hardshell and that wasn't why I bought it. But it does handle sweat pretty well and I don't think you should be having it pouring out of your sleeves like that.

[happyhiker]

I have given up on expecting any waterproof to "breathe" sufficiently to avoid dampness, especially if it is raining. I sweat profusely. I prefer to wear layers/fleece, especially when going uphill. Sometimes, I even get a layer of frost on my shoulders but at least it proves the wicking is working. I keep the waterproofs for rain, to kill the wind if particularly cold or when stopping for lunch, if it is cold.


I don't think there is any answer to the dampness problem. The main thing is to have options to protect yourself from the elements.

[pauldawes]

I was pondering this “issue” as I plodded along Grand Union canal today.


First thought that occurred is that if Paramo jacket concerned is an Alta or some near equivalent, then it’s a very “warm” jacket for any British conditions other than Scottish winters.


I tend to feel the cold, but nearly always just use a Velez Adventure Light, just slipping a Torres outer insulating layer on top if it’s really cold, or (unusually for me) take a rest break. (Certainly not a boast...I just seldom do really long walks nowadays, so it’s easy to keep going.)


The advantage of using an outer insulation layer in really cold conditions...as opposed to a really warm mid layer...is that it’s far easier to take off if it gets warmer, or you come to a steep climb and will be “working hard”.

[dav]

If working hard it is normal to feel damp and so long as it has wicked through to the outer surface away from the body it is ok. With a waterproof shell the dampness condensates on the inner layer, so the jacket needs an absorbant layer that will in turn wick the condensation through to the outer where it evaporates. Too many jacket described as very breathable don't have an absorbant layer so condensation runs down the inner, and often out of the sleeve cuffs. In order for a jacket to breath through the fabric there has to be pressure enough to force it through. an open neck, pit zips, open sleeve cuff etc and reduces the pressure so the condensation vapour will find its easiest route and the jacket will not breathe.When the temp drops to zero, which it may not be at valley level but start ascending and it soon might be, I wear a 'Buffalo' top. You can work up a good sweat wearing one, but whereas with the layer system, when you stop you will become cold, not so with Buffalo, you stay insulated even though the pile next to your skin may be soaked in sweat. Buffalo is meant to be worn as a single item next to the skin for peak performance. takes a little getting used to. Ive been in -35C  wind chill and been comfortable with just that single layer.

[NeilC]

If working hard it is normal to feel damp and so long as it has wicked through to the outer surface away from the body it is ok. With a waterproof shell the dampness condensates on the inner layer, so the jacket needs an absorbant layer that will in turn wick the condensation through to the outer where it evaporates. Too many jacket described as very breathable don't have an absorbant layer so condensation runs down the inner, and often out of the sleeve cuffs. In order for a jacket to breath through the fabric there has to be pressure enough to force it through. an open neck, pit zips, open sleeve cuff etc and reduces the pressure so the condensation vapour will find its easiest route and the jacket will not breathe.When the temp drops to zero, which it may not be at valley level but start ascending and it soon might be, I wear a 'Buffalo' top. You can work up a good sweat wearing one, but whereas with the layer system, when you stop you will become cold, not so with Buffalo, you stay insulated even though the pile next to your skin may be soaked in sweat. Buffalo is meant to be worn as a single item next to the skin for peak performance. takes a little getting used to. Ive been in -35C  wind chill and been comfortable with just that single layer.

Yeah but he's wearing Paramo - so there is no shell layer. Its outside layer is very similar to Buffalo's Pertex - a tightly woven, uncoated polyester fabric.