Walking Forum
Main Boards => General Walking Discussion => Topic started by: Davidedgarjones on 17:36:40, 05/10/20
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The recent congestion on Snowdon reminded me of a You Tube Video by "Chase Mountaineering" entitled "How to Solve the Problem of Overcrowding on Everest". It poses the question of whether you would attempt Everest if you afterwards could tell nobody else that you'd done it, didn't post your photos on Facebook or Instagram, indeed taken no photos at all.
He sees ego as the motivation for a great deal of mountaineering exploits; Ben Nevis, the 3 Peaks etc are UK favourites.
I came across this a while ago and was reminded of it when hearing about the recent Snowdon congestion. See what you think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fecYdX-oTk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fecYdX-oTk)
Dave
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Thanks. I watched the video (despite the length and my short attention span!). I couldn't relate to it at all.
I've walked to the summit of Snowdon. I took lots of photos and enjoyed telling people about my 'achievement'. But I also enjoyed the purely personal pleasures for their own sake and I would have done it for that reason alone. I like to tell my family and friends about my adventures, but I also have adventures I don't mention to anyone.
It seems to me that the premise of the video was to suggest that some people are interested solely in 'bragging rights' and, for that reason alone, shouldn't be climbing mountains (or whatever).
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That’s too simplistic. I’ve done Snowdon many times (even though I don’t like to talk about it :) ).
I’ll do it again, not to brag, but because it’s arguably the most stunning mountain in England and Wales.
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Another who can't relate to the ego trip pretext. People climb mountains for all sorts of reasons. knowing something is attainable, then going and doing it, then telling your friends you have done it. Isn't this what so much of life's achievements large and small are about. In that respect Snowdon and Everest are no different to a new kitchen. If you only wish true "explorers" to climb Snowdon then best they dismantle the railway line, restore the summit to something less Disney and move it to Scotland. Where it will just be another Munro. Everest might be a bit more tricky. Maybe move it to the centre of the Pacific where it will disappear into obscurity bellow the mountains of Hawaii.
As for folk feeding their egos. We all do it. Just some people feel the need to do it more than others. Often the more successful amongst us.
Annoys the heck out of me when some egotistical grad gets a pay rise for demonstrating their youth and talent, using the latest tech, when an boring stuck in the mud lifer, who never speaks, like me ;D is ignored ;)
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He sees ego as the motivation for a great deal of mountaineering exploits; Ben Nevis, the 3 Peaks etc are UK favourites.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fecYdX-oTk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fecYdX-oTk)
Some might see ego as a motivation for posting on Youtube - or indeed on this forum ;)
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I suspect that all great explorers and mountaineers have a degree of ego, particularly those who achieve a first (Amundsen, Hillary, etc.). I never met them, so I don’t know for sure.
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Some might see ego as a motivation for posting on Youtube - or indeed on this forum ;)
;D
I don't think that you can equate Snowdon with Everest. Most people, if they wanted to, could walk up Snowdon. I'm not sure that it gives you huge bragging rights.
If we followed BuzyG's suggestions then there would just be a queue on Carnedd Llywelyn.
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;D
I don't think that you can equate Snowdon with Everest. Most people, if they wanted to, could walk up Snowdon. I'm not sure that it gives you huge bragging rights.
I agree.Snowdon is a good day in the hills for most people,either for personal enjoyment or to raise funds for charity.
For most people Everest is an exercise in utter futility with the climber paying £30,000 and risking life and limb to stagger past the bodies of those who have gone before and failed.Its the ultimate ego trip and often ends in tears.
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I agree that the ego thing is much more applicable to Everest. Particularly business types who believe their own hype, and have delusions that they are somehow comparable to Hillary or Messner, when in reality it’s not the same game, or even the same sport. Monstrous egos putting others lives at risk.
I doubt it’s easy, but if you’ve got the physiology for it, the commercial organisations appear to do everything but actually carry you to the top, with the staff taking a lot of the risk.
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Egos aside, I don't think that I would want to queue to get up any mountain.
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Egos aside, I don't think that I would want to queue to get up any mountain.
I agree with you Richard, if I wanted to queue there's a bus stop I could stand at. But I do like to get to the top of the hills I walk up, if there is a cairn or a trig I will touch it. So I can see why, particularly if it is the only time you are likely to be on Snowdon or indeed any hill, you may be willing to wait to get to the very top. I suppose most hills are not so landscaped either so there isn't such an obvious way you have to queue.
The closest I have been to queuing is when I took my son up Scafell Pike but it was more of a polite scrum than a queue. I didn't go up on to the platform but he did. Perhaps if it was the only hill I was going to climb ever, or even that day, I would have gone up too.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/nn129/Birkhouse/Lakes%202009/.highres/DSCF1088.jpg?width=590&height=370&fit=bounds) (https://photobucket.com/u/Birkhouse/a/8a2a5c7b-9509-4fca-aaee-953eadc7cd83/p/ad8a043b-9109-4f9d-acd6-c382d2e071cd)
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What prompted my original post was the queue of people waiting to get to the actual summit (not just the cafe area) and no doubt take a photo. News reports said people were waiting an hour and there were some disputes.
I was planning to go up Snowdon in October with my walking group but we've decided to cancel our Llanberis stay. My planned walk was bus to Pen Y Pass, up the PYG to Bwlch Glas (avoiding the summit which I've done numerous times) and then down via the Snowdon Ranger etc.
We climb mountains for a variety of reasons, and we all have our own reasons for doing so. We do need to bear in mind the impact of large numbers upon the environment. Sadly, I'm going to give Snowdon a miss for the time being as it's just too crowded. Lots of great alternatives of course, but if you do wish to brag about your hillwalking exploits to non-walkers then only Snowdon will do.
Elidr Fawr and Y Garn from Nant Peris is more demanding, but non-walkers won't have heard of them.
Dave
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I arrived at a party some years ago, and mine host said you will enjoy meeting 'So and so', he has climbed all the Munroe's. Never been so bored in my life, made sure I was out of his reach for the rest of the evening, all he had in his mind was list of ticked names, I would have learnt more about the countryside from someone, who had walked a few Glens.
Saddens me when a middle aged persons, equates the six form trip up Snowden as a basis for understanding the pleasures of walking as a pastime.
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I arrived at a party some years ago, and mine host said you will enjoy meeting 'So and so', he has climbed all the Munroe's. Never been so bored in my life, made sure I was out of his reach for the rest of the evening, all he had in his mind was list of ticked names, I would have learnt more about the countryside from someone, who had walked a few Glens.
Saddens me when a middle aged persons, equates the six form trip up Snowden as a basis for understanding the pleasures of walking as a pastime.
To be honest it is the same with most hobbies. Look at all the bird watchers, trainspotters etc, that will travel miles to see something they can then put a tick against.
I regularly walk along one bank of a river, in all that time I have only seen the "resident" Kingfisher once. But it is a regular topic of conversation with the other walkers I meet. Does that mean as I have seen it and others haven't I am on some sort of ego trip? What about the guy who say sees it most days? is he really on an ego trip, or is he lying to help his ego. Or does he just happen to see it more than most of us? More importantly who really cares.
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I'm pretty sure Hillary & Tenzing both got a mighty boost to their Egos when they reached the summit of Everest. It was a very well funded expedition for it's day. If they had FB and the like the trip would have been all over social media. The crucial difference was they did not know if it was possible when they were up there pushing their limits, but they did understand, certainly Hillary, they might die and fade into History as also rans, if they did not come back.
I can't know but I like to think that the majority of those paying 40k to be guided up the mountain these days, have wanted to climb it since they were young and only now have the means to attempt it. Regardless they are still risking their lives and the lives of those who are paid to support their climb. No doubt as in all streams of life there are a few who are there more to promote their ego than satisfy a life's ambition. But I am confident that they are in the minority.
Back to the UK. Ben Nevis, Snowdon, Scar fell Pike, Pen y Fan, even Yes tor. They all come up on people's bucket list, because they hear about them from some where and they present a challenge to the individual. My son has Ben Nevis on his bucket has had for several years now, but it's not always a easy as we often make out in this community to just go climb a mountain. So when you do it's good to tell your mates and others you did it.
None of that will ever solve the issue of queuing at the top of Snowdon on a sunny Bank holiday. If you don't wish to que turn up mid winter, when the café is closed and the visibility is 20m. Having never witnessed the magnificent views from any of the UK big three I can confirm that there are no ques in such conditions and you still get a boost to your ego when you tell your friends and others about it afterwards. Would I have climbed those peaks if there was no one else to tell about it. For sure I would have. :)
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For me it is all about ego in that I walk just for my own entertainment and for the benefits of regular exercise. Summits are not as important to me as the quality of the route. I can happily bypass an actual summit altogether as I see summit bagging as "geographical trainspotting" - it does nothing for me to get to the exact top of a hill that is on some list and the view from near the summit is usually just as good. I rarely take summit pictures, in fact, I do not take that many pictures at all as the only person I would show them to is usually with me at the time.
Because my reasons for walking are purely selfish, I do not normally read trip reports unless I have a special interest in the location, or have given advice about the trip and am curious how it turned out. Similarly I do not normally write trip reports, it would be a chore and my trips are no more special or interesting than anyone else's, possibly even less. I admit I do keep a fairly detailed walk log but it is my own amusement, not for bragging rights. Nobody else needs to know where I have been, how far or how high I have been and I am not that bothered by other peoples achievements - we all do what we can in accordance with our abilities, interest and opportunity.
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Naaah you think you have lived...I`m not braggin` but.....
when I was a lad , twenty of us slept in one bed , top to toe..our house was made of wood and we had to walk 30 mile just to get water .....then bring it back ..Gee it was a tough life . ;) :D
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Naaah you think you have lived...I`m not braggin` but.....
when I was a lad , twenty of us slept in one bed , top to toe..our house was made of wood and we had to walk 30 mile just to get water .....then bring it back ..Gee it was a tough life . ;) :D
You think you 'ad it tough! We lived in middle of t'road........https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKHFZBUTA4k
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You think you 'ad it tough! We lived in middle of t'road........https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKHFZBUTA4k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKHFZBUTA4k)
I...., but you try an tell that t the young people of today.... Will they believe ye?
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Some like to bag and then brag . If it makes someone feel good about themselves then so be it .
We are all different . One thing life`s taught me, is that we can never do it all , and if we think we have , there is always someone else who seems to have done more , that`s for certain . Whether that be mountains climbed or trails walked or just a life lived .
It`s nice to compare notes though with like minded people . It can validate us . If it comes off as bragging , then never mind ey . :)
Ooops I`m getting a tad philosophical .
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I've sometimes been tempted to 'blame' social media for the crowds on certain hills, but of course Snowdonia, the Lakes, etc. were popular tourist destinations long before there was any such thing, or even the ability for most people to take photos easily.
Interestingly, on a recent walk I found myself with no way to take pictures (didn't want to risk getting my camera wet so had brought my phone instead, but the battery didn't last). I was surprised to find myself thinking 'what's the point if I have no record of it/have nothing to post online/can't prove I did it'. But in the end it was actually a relief to be able to just focus on the walk and not worry about documenting every step.
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I can't know but I like to think that the majority of those paying 40k to be guided up the mountain these days, have wanted to climb it since they were young and only now have the means to attempt it.
Nowadays, this is often a business decision. Many of the folks climbing Everest are influencers and motivational spreakers who do it to increase their marketvalue.
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Interestingly, on a recent walk I found myself with no way to take pictures (didn't want to risk getting my camera wet so had brought my phone instead, but the battery didn't last). I was surprised to find myself thinking 'what's the point if I have no record of it/have nothing to post online/can't prove I did it'. But in the end it was actually a relief to be able to just focus on the walk and not worry about documenting every step.
In the past, I have often travelled without even bringing a camera. I didn't want to 'experience' my trips through a camera lens and let taking pictures distract me.
However, I now regret having no records at all of many of the wonderful trips I made. Of many, I now only have vague memories. So in 2009 I have started to keep a diary and now I always bring a pocket camera. I started writing reports since then to keep my own memories alive and to have something to read when I get demented in the future. These are memories of the best things in my life so I don't want to lose them! I shared these reports (in pdf) format with a handful of friends and family, but recently I have posted them online too (after being encouraged by others).
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Interestingly, on a recent walk I found myself with no way to take pictures (didn't want to risk getting my camera wet so had brought my phone instead, but the battery didn't last). I was surprised to find myself thinking 'what's the point if I have no record of it/have nothing to post online/can't prove I did it'. But in the end it was actually a relief to be able to just focus on the walk and not worry about documenting every step.
Long before the advent of mobile phones and digital photography, I would sometimes take a 35mm SLR on my walks, and I kept a hand written walking journal, which ran to 5 hardback volumes before I let it lapse in the 1990s. The photos languish in a plastic box in the under stairs cupboard, whereas I really enjoy dipping into my old journals - words can be so much more powerful at evoking memories than disjointed photographs.
Now of course we can have the best of both worlds - it is easy to incorporate photographs into an on line journal, otherwise known as a blog. If I forgot my phone or the batteries went flat I would perhaps be a bit disappointed, but I would still write an account without photos, and would still get pleasure from it in years to come. May not be of much interest to forum members without the photos, of course, but that is of secondary importance.
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Yes I agree it’s nice to have some record of a trip, if only for yourself (and it can be useful in planning future walks to be able to refer to notes and photos from the area).
But maybe sometimes it can also become a bit of a burden and a distraction from experiencing the present moment, or an intrusion of the (perceived) expectations of others. These things probably affect some people more than others.
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I have taken some photos of my walks, but the important ones are ingrained in my memory. I have never been one for a diary or writing logs. I usually separate my more serious walking and my photography.
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Now of course we can have the best of both worlds - it is easy to incorporate photographs into an on line journal, otherwise known as a blog. If I forgot my phone or the batteries went flat I would perhaps be a bit disappointed, but I would still write an account without photos, and would still get pleasure from it in years to come. May not be of much interest to forum members without the photos, of course, but that is of secondary importance.
Yes, it is bit like the old fashioned paper photo-album where you would stick your photos in and write some text underneath. They are great to have for your personal memories and the possibility to show them to interested friends and family.
But in the digital age, things get more messy. First of all, digital pictures don't cost money so you take (many) more of them. So now you don't have 24 or 36 photos of your holiday but hundreds/ thousands. That means you now need to select. So the best thing to do is make a nice selection that captures the spirit of the trip and add some text, to recreate the old fashioned photo-book/ scrap-book.
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Yes I agree it’s nice to have some record of a trip, if only for yourself (and it can be useful in planning future walks to be able to refer to notes and photos from the area).
But maybe sometimes it can also become a bit of a burden and a distraction from experiencing the present moment, or an intrusion of the (perceived) expectations of others. These things probably affect some people more than others.
Yes that is true! Personally, I don't enjoy taking pictures at all, but I want to have them to help me keep hold of the memories. The same is true for writing the diary. In the evening I'm often very tired and I just want to rest, but I force myself to spend 15 minutes or so to write. I now deeply regret that I didn't keep a diary on my adventures prior to 2009, because so many memories have been lost.
So, I see it as a small price to pay to enable me to retain more memories of the adventures. All these wonderful things that I am grateful to have experienced in my life are my most valuable "possession". But if my memory goes, they are lost...
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I now deeply regret that I didn't keep a diary on my adventures prior to 2009, because so many memories have been lost.
So, I see it as a small price to pay to enable me to retain more memories of the adventures. All these wonderful things that I am grateful to have experienced in my life are my most valuable "possession". But if my memory goes, they are lost...
My missing years are from around 1990 to 2018. With a few exceptions, this was a lean period for photography and journal writing.
And I do enjoy a bit of photography, although not to the extent of it intruding upon the pleasure of a walk. I also enjoy writing my accounts of the walks that I do, trying to choose words carefully (like 'gaggle', April ;) ), to make it interesting to read for myself and others. Plus I find that writing the account and sorting through the photos helps to reinforce the memory of the walk.
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I've sometimes been tempted to 'blame' social media for the crowds on certain hills, but of course Snowdonia, the Lakes, etc. were popular tourist destinations long before there was any such thing, or even the ability for most people to take photos easily.
Interestingly, on a recent walk I found myself with no way to take pictures (didn't want to risk getting my camera wet so had brought my phone instead, but the battery didn't last). I was surprised to find myself thinking 'what's the point if I have no record of it/have nothing to post online/can't prove I did it'. But in the end it was actually a relief to be able to just focus on the walk and not worry about documenting every step.
Documenting every step for social media is something peculiar to some generations whilst others look on, confused as to why anyone should care. Sadly it's becoming a 'virtual currency' and young kids get anxiety over the amount of 'likes' they get on their posts and delete them if they're unsuccessful - the need to put themselves on display in the name of engagement and connection, but really often a veneer for our performative image and vanity
Often you see this need to satisfy the ego creeping in when it comes to "aren't I great" content: themes like 'look how far I went', 'how fast I did it', and 'how great I looked' during the process. In some respects this is why content which recognises it's audience and provides value to them is far more useful - mention your mistakes (everyone makes them), don't treat them as a method to puff up your ego (which comes across as insecure) but instead try to laugh at yourself a little.
Yes, it is bit like the old fashioned paper photo-album where you would stick your photos in and write some text underneath. They are great to have for your personal memories and the possibility to show them to interested friends and family.
But in the digital age, things get more messy. First of all, digital pictures don't cost money so you take (many) more of them. So now you don't have 24 or 36 photos of your holiday but hundreds/ thousands. That means you now need to select. So the best thing to do is make a nice selection that captures the spirit of the trip and add some text, to recreate the old fashioned photo-book/ scrap-book.
I've been doing a massive sort out lately and noticed just how little I've looked through most of those albums, in particular digital albums which end up as a black hole of hundreds of photos from various years. Not quite sure how best to remedy this - a digital photo frame works for many people, have it somewhere prominent so you can see it of course, but it doesn't quite solve the problem with the sheer amount of photos you need to cull through.
To an extent this was why I wrote a trip-diary, rather than worry about having hundreds of photos I'd just end up ignoring several years (decades?) later I'd force myself to go through them, reflect a little, draw those memories out whilst they were fresh and try to capture the enjoyment in words. Possibly also because there have been many amazing blogs I've read and I want to do something similar for my little patch of the world so I can persuade my grandkids I indeed did spend most of my free time climbing mountains (I assume my knees won't work by then so they'd be understandably doubtful)
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You think you 'ad it tough! We lived in middle of t'road........https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKHFZBUTA4k
That's cheered up a slow morning ;D
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And I do enjoy a bit of photography, although not to the extent of it intruding upon the pleasure of a walk.
Fortunately, pictures of landscapes etc don't take that much effort. It is point and shoot basically. However, in my case I take pictures of some birds too because it is such an important part of my adventures. That usually takes more effort, unfortunately. They are all taken with a pocket camera (300 gram) with superzoom, which is not very fast, so only some birds qualify (they have to be pretty stationary).
But deliberately carrying an unimpressive camera and therefore accepting that for most birds I don't even have to bother trying is part of the strategy to keep me focused on enjoying my walk and observing! It was a tough decision for me already to replace my previous 3x zoom camera with a superzoom type, because I knew it would distract me more. But leaving out the birds from the reports just didn't give the right representation of the trip, so I had to do it. But I'm happy with the balance now.
I also enjoy writing my accounts of the walks that I do, trying to choose words carefully (like 'gaggle', April ;) ), to make it interesting to read for myself and others. Plus I find that writing the account and sorting through the photos helps to reinforce the memory of the walk.
Yes, like preparing for a trip is fun, writing the report afterwards is for me also part of it. The whole thing is only finished after the report is finished. And I agree that writing it helps reinforce and relive the memories, which is great! It also helps you to consolidate the storyline, which also helps the memory because it is not just a bunch of separate memories but a coherent story.
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Documenting every step for social media is something peculiar to some generations whilst others look on, confused as to why anyone should care. Sadly it's becoming a 'virtual currency' and young kids get anxiety over the amount of 'likes' they get on their posts and delete them if they're unsuccessful - the need to put themselves on display in the name of engagement and connection, but really often a veneer for our performative image and vanity
Often you see this need to satisfy the ego creeping in when it comes to "aren't I great" content: themes like 'look how far I went', 'how fast I did it', and 'how great I looked' during the process. In some respects this is why content which recognises it's audience and provides value to them is far more useful - mention your mistakes (everyone makes them), don't treat them as a method to puff up your ego (which comes across as insecure) but instead try to laugh at yourself a little.
Yes, it's amazing how many blogs there are about how many miles, how fast, how light, etc. However, if you are searching for information about what flora and fauna you can expect to encounter, there is surprisingly little to find about that.
When I walked the Bibbulmun Track in Australia last year, this was an interesting contrast with American trails like the PCT and AZT. On the American trails there was so much more focus on how fast etc, whereas in Australia most talk was about which rare orchids and other wildflowers people had encountered, and how many snakes, emus, kangaroos, echidnas etc. That was really refreshing. Apart from perhaps a cultural difference, the main difference was demographics. On the Bibbulmun I met mainly older folks, usually in their 50's and 60's whereas on the PCT the big peak is 20-35's.
Btw: the Bibbulmun Track Foundation asked me afterwards to write a few lines about my walk, with emphasis on the birds:
https://www.bibbulmuntrack.org.au/news/tales-from-the-track/walking-and-birding-the-bibbulmun-track/
I've been doing a massive sort out lately and noticed just how little I've looked through most of those albums, in particular digital albums which end up as a black hole of hundreds of photos from various years. Not quite sure how best to remedy this - a digital photo frame works for many people, have it somewhere prominent so you can see it of course, but it doesn't quite solve the problem with the sheer amount of photos you need to cull through.
I completely recognise this! I almost never look at the thousands of photos on my hard drive, but I read and re-read my own travel reports very often and get transported back to these wonderful times. So writing reports work really well for keeping and reliving memories! With the added advantage that you can also share it with friends/ family and others that might be interested.