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Main Boards => General Walking Discussion => Topic started by: gunwharfman on 12:31:41, 23/08/20

Title: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: gunwharfman on 12:31:41, 23/08/20
I keep noticing articles in the newspapers and on TV and radio that refer to the nations 'mental health problem' and the suggestion that its being caused by Covid-19 and lockdown etc.

Having worked with people with 'mental health problems' or the 'mentally ill' if you prefer for most of my life, I find the terminology to be confusing, it would seem that 'all personal problems' as the media presents it to us can now be given this status?

I know that the 'message' is what it is and I can't change it but I worry that people are now being negatively 'labelled' too easily and my worry is that they might be tempted to believe that with the 'label' someone else will make them feel better about there life and how its unfolding? 

For those who feel 'sad' that they are now in this era, I too am 'sad' about it, but I am also that by getting out and about (hiking, running, cycling etc) it might be just the tonic that they need rather than just sucumb to the comfort of a diagnosis that may mean something of course, or perhaps nothing at all?

Of course the other danger is that more and more people are now taking all sorts of necessary or even unessary mediaction? This would worry me because I know that there are some very 'dodgy' drugs out there. I remember the dependency drugs (e.g. Valium) the spongy gums drugs (e.g. Phenytoin) and other 'wonder medications.' People who may feel the need or who are being persuaded to go down this route should, if they can, think carefully before doing so.

So, it may sound simplistic, but my view is, try to 'get out and about' first and get onto the medication route last!
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: ninthace on 12:40:01, 23/08/20
I sometimes wonder if we are not sometimes just giving names to normal aspects of the human condition thereby making victims of ourselves and seeking a professionall delivered solution when the cure may be in our own hands.
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: Birdman on 13:02:38, 23/08/20
The Covid-19 situation has triggered anxiety and depression in a lot of people. I think it's a good thing to acknowledge this rather than deny these thoughts. Knowing that a lot of people struggle with this at the moment, I think acknowledging this can help and actually give people hope ("There nothing wrong with you, this situation just sucks and it will pass").



I agree that there is a big difference between "real" mental illness and people who are simply temporarily out of balance because of the unprecedented situation and justified worries about family members, genuine economic worries and a sudden sense if isolation.


I think the latter group should definitely stay away from medicine. Spending time outdoors, walking, enjoying nature is a good advice.
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 13:13:01, 23/08/20
There are really severe mental health conditions / illnesses, such as PTSD, schizophrenia, bipolar, clinical depression and I have seen all of these in family and friends. However, nowadays almost every situation when someone is feeling a bit low seems to be labelled as some type of mental health syndrome. The severe situations may well need some quite powerful medication, which can have significant downsides. In the lesser cases it would often be much better to spend some time outside or doing things that are enjoyable. It is currently difficult to spend time with people outside our households, but most can keep in contact. I do think that the generation is over pampered compared to earlier times and dread to think how we would have coped during the first half of the 20th century or living in one of the many countries much poorer than ours or subject to oppressive regimes.
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: pleb on 13:38:28, 23/08/20
I agree with gunwharfeman. There is a lot to be said for fresh air and nature.
I remember a bod on the telly looking at a blue butterfly on the south downs, he said they ought to prescribe it on the NHS.
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: Birdman on 14:10:24, 23/08/20
I do think that the generation is over pampered compared to earlier times and dread to think how we would have coped during the first half of the 20th century or living in one of the many countries much poorer than ours or subject to oppressive regimes.


There are many reasons for that. Of course, when you struggle for survival there isn't much time to ponder about whether you have a "fulfilling" life or not. It is also true that people nowadays are very detached from the results of their work (feeling like a wage slave) and there are often no other goals (like religion) so life can become quite meaningless if you cannot find an alternative way to give your life meaning.


Of course many (even serious) mental illnesses weren't acknowledged as such in the beginning of the 20th century. Soldiers during WW1 suffering from PTSD and shellshock were sometimes even executed because of cowardice or desertion.


It is true that most of us have been incredibly lucky to live today in peaceful and prosperous times. Just imagine you were a German guy born in 1895. By the time you are 19 years old WW1 starts and you spend 4 years, from 19 to 23 - your formative years!) in the trenches. If you survived these 4 years of unspeakable horror (probably scarred both mentally and physically), you get hit by the Spanish Flu Pandemic. Having survived that, just when your life starts to get somewhat normal you get hit by hyperinflation at 27. All your savings you had worked for since the war are gone. After losing everything, the Great Depression starts when you are 34, the prime of your life. You lose all your savings once again! And your job, possibly your house if you even had one... When you reach 38, Hitler comes to power. Actually, from that moment on you may actually get a few more stable and more prosperous years, provided that you are not a Jew or gay or (suspected of) being against the nazis. If you escaped that, at 44, WW2 starts. You may escape the western front (because of your age) but not the eastern front (arguably more horrible) because by 1943 even the elderly were forced to fight. By 1945 at latest (you are then 50 years old) you'll spend several years in a Siberian POW camp. You'll be in your mid 50's till you get home (if survived), only to return to the spot where your house once stood (bombed). You now live once again in a totalitarian regime (the DDR). Great... If you survived all this, you probably die just a few years later (life expectancy at the time was ~65).


I often think about how incredibly lucky I am to live here and now. 75 years peace! However, I fear we are not going to see another 75 years of this.
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: gunwharfman on 17:12:10, 23/08/20
I like your paragraph about from 1895, well thought out. I'm 75 and I know that my life as been really 'easy' compared to my Mum and Dad's and the previous generation. I may say that life was hard for but in reality, it wasn't really, the best I can come up with is perhaps 'uncomfortable' at times. I also remember that really optimistic 60s decade, well it was for me, I hadn't got a care in the world! Doesn't seem to be that good for young right now though, or are they 'creating their own problems,' because of an overwhelming need for 'stuff' which perhaps they can't fulfil and so the end result is 'mental health problems'

I'm also wary about the word 'depression.' Are people really 'depressed' or are they just 'sad' perhaps at the situation, they are in or feel that they are in?

I've always been interested in the power of 'group pressure' and what makes them start to think in the same way, and nowadays I wonder whether group negative thinking via 'social media' is able to influence some peoples state-of-mind and how they look at and interpret the world around them?

I also wonder if this feeling of being 'depressed' is also shaped by the demands of what an individual feels they MUST HAVE to believe that they are 'normal' and/or 'successful?' For example, I didn't have a car, a PC, a mobile phone, games console, etc, etc, my life was economically simpler then, but it doesn't seem to be so today. Only yesterday I was listening to a child (about 10) and mother arguing on Southsea Common. The child was fraught, in tears and screaming that Mum wouldn't buy her an iPhone just like the one her friend had. It's a situation I've heard and seen played out time and time again over the past few years.

I sometimes try to 'compare and contrast' to my parent's expectations of what they wanted or needed from life, I'm sure they were lower than mine. I remember that their focus was more about the basics of food, warmth and shelter.

 
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: Birdman on 19:15:05, 23/08/20



Paradoxically, living in good times and having plenty of opportunities can also be a burden. Because every opportunity is also an opportunity to fail. We are told we can achieve anything in life, as long as you work hard etc. Everybody can be rich, beautiful, famous, happy... But if you fail to achieve these goals, who can you blame but yourself? In the time of my grandparents (I'm 52 myself) there was a lot less to choose. If your father was a farmer, you would be a farmer too. So you don't blame yourself for not being rich/ famous/ etc, it was just the way it was and it was easier to accept. The illusion nowadays that it is all in your own hands, but it really isn't.

 
Now add social media to the mix, where everybody broadcasts a fake and idealised image of themselves and everybody compares themselves to the apparently wonderful lives that other people have. And social media are addictive: "likes" generate dopamine in the brain. That's why many people cannot spend 5 minutes without checking their phone. You wouldn't give your children drugs, but kids spend hours every day on social media. The result is no surprise.

Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: Sarah Pitht on 22:01:32, 23/08/20
Interesting thread. I fear that it is in fashion to talk about MH issues. But most people think MH illness is a bit of depression or anxiety. If they came across someone having a manic episode, or the lad I was with the other week having full blown flashbacks due to PTSD or the teenager with dissociative identity disorder who had so many voices going on in her head that she said she had blackouts, they would run a mile.


I suppose this vogue is at least the start of bring MH illnesses into the open - but we have a long way to go. And the lack of investment in CAMHS in terms of therapeutic  input terrifies me.
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: ninthace on 23:26:48, 23/08/20
Sharing time.  Not sure if this is relevant to the thread but:


Some years ago in the RAF I was newly promoted to a senior rank and was working all hours to get a new section up and running,  In time I started feeling ill.  It began with dry heaving before going to work and then things got worse. I could not sleep, feeling sick and so on.  Eventually, I went to see the base doctor.  We had a long chat and at the end he told me to go home.  I just told him I did not have the time to be sick.  He just looked me straight in the in the face and said "If I told you you had cancer - would you do as I said?"  That was an easy one.  Then he said "The good news is you don't have cancer, but what you have killed my wife and it will kill you too if you do not do as I say"  That sort of thing brings you up short.  He explained what was going on in my brain (apparently it was a stress related chemical imbalance) and why I had to stop.  So I crawled off home armed with some pills.


The first few days were the worst - mixed feels of paranoia and guilt.  I just hid away.  My wife said my personality changed and I wasn't the person she married, even though I felt the same inside.   Eventually I thought I felt better, put my uniform on and set off to drive to work.  About half way there, I just could not do it, so I turned round and drove home.  I tried again a few days later with the same result.  It was a really weird thing, I felt perfectly healthy physically but inside I was a wreck.  We we were in quarters on the edge of the Chilterns at the time so I started to go for long walks. but they only helped a bit.  There was no pleasure in it.  I could not reconcile feeling physically well with the guilt of not being able to work.


Finally, it settled down and I went back but it was a long time before I could even talk about it.  The abiding feeling was one of guilt at letting people down, shame and inadequacy.   Military people, and officers especially. are not supposed to cave in under stress but it can happen. 


I suppose is there is a moral, it is that it can happen to anyone and it is not necessarily a weakness.  If you feel it creeping up on you, do not be ashamed to talk about it.  If I had been able to do that, perhaps it would have been different.
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: MkPotato on 07:12:03, 24/08/20

There are many reasons for that. Of course, when you struggle for survival there isn't much time to ponder about whether you have a "fulfilling" life or not. It is also true that people nowadays are very detached from the results of their work (feeling like a wage slave) and there are often no other goals (like religion) so life can become quite meaningless if you cannot find an alternative way to give your life meaning.


Of course many (even serious) mental illnesses weren't acknowledged as such in the beginning of the 20th century. Soldiers during WW1 suffering from PTSD and shellshock were sometimes even executed because of cowardice or desertion.


It is true that most of us have been incredibly lucky to live today in peaceful and prosperous times. Just imagine you were a German guy born in 1895. By the time you are 19 years old WW1 starts and you spend 4 years, from 19 to 23 - your formative years!) in the trenches. If you survived these 4 years of unspeakable horror (probably scarred both mentally and physically), you get hit by the Spanish Flu Pandemic. Having survived that, just when your life starts to get somewhat normal you get hit by hyperinflation at 27. All your savings you had worked for since the war are gone. After losing everything, the Great Depression starts when you are 34, the prime of your life. You lose all your savings once again! And your job, possibly your house if you even had one... When you reach 38, Hitler comes to power. Actually, from that moment on you may actually get a few more stable and more prosperous years, provided that you are not a Jew or gay or (suspected of) being against the nazis. If you escaped that, at 44, WW2 starts. You may escape the western front (because of your age) but not the eastern front (arguably more horrible) because by 1943 even the elderly were forced to fight. By 1945 at latest (you are then 50 years old) you'll spend several years in a Siberian POW camp. You'll be in your mid 50's till you get home (if survived), only to return to the spot where your house once stood (bombed). You now live once again in a totalitarian regime (the DDR). Great... If you survived all this, you probably die just a few years later (life expectancy at the time was ~65).


I often think about how incredibly lucky I am to live here and now. 75 years peace! However, I fear we are not going to see another 75 years of this.


Great post!


I’ve had similar conversations with my peers. Anyone under about 75 (unless they’ve served in the forces) has lived remarkably safe times (on mainland UK). There were worries in the Cold War, but it never really got too close to kicking off. (I’m too young to remember the Cuban Missile Crisis).


Economically, late40-60-somethings have had a pretty charmed life as well. I’m in my early 50s, so too young to be directly affected by the economic turmoil of the 70s/early 80s, and arguably (hopefully) not as likely to suffer the long term fallout of the COVID crisis. Gen X and Baby-boomers are indeed charmed generations, particularly in the West.

It’s not surprising that we’ve become a bit superficial and navel-gazing - we haven’t had anything too serious to worry about.

(I’m sure there are exceptions to these vast generalisations!). 
 
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: Birdman on 10:17:09, 24/08/20
Sharing time.  Not sure if this is relevant to the thread but:


Some years ago in the RAF I was newly promoted to a senior rank and was working all hours to get a new section up and running,  In time I started feeling ill.  It began with dry heaving before going to work and then things got worse. I could not sleep, feeling sick and so on.  Eventually, I went to see the base doctor.  We had a long chat and at the end he told me to go home.  I just told him I did not have the time to be sick.  He just looked me straight in the in the face and said "If I told you you had cancer - would you do as I said?"  That was an easy one.  Then he said "The good news is you don't have cancer, but what you have killed my wife and it will kill you too if you do not do as I say"  That sort of thing brings you up short.  He explained what was going on in my brain (apparently it was a stress related chemical imbalance) and why I had to stop.  So I crawled off home armed with some pills.


The first few days were the worst - mixed feels of paranoia and guilt.  I just hid away.  My wife said my personality changed and I wasn't the person she married, even though I felt the same inside.   Eventually I thought I felt better, put my uniform on and set off to drive to work.  About half way there, I just could not do it, so I turned round and drove home.  I tried again a few days later with the same result.  It was a really weird thing, I felt perfectly healthy physically but inside I was a wreck.  We we were in quarters on the edge of the Chilterns at the time so I started to go for long walks. but they only helped a bit.  There was no pleasure in it.  I could not reconcile feeling physically well with the guilt of not being able to work.


Finally, it settled down and I went back but it was a long time before I could even talk about it.  The abiding feeling was one of guilt at letting people down, shame and inadequacy.   Military people, and officers especially. are not supposed to cave in under stress but it can happen. 


Great post. Thanks for sharing.

And this:
Quote
I suppose is there is a moral, it is that it can happen to anyone and it is not necessarily a weakness.  If you feel it creeping up on you, do not be ashamed to talk about it.  If I had been able to do that, perhaps it would have been different.


So true!


I'm guilty myself of (in the past) dismissing people who claimed to be depressed as posers who were just not used to some adversity in their lives anymore and should just man up (or woman up). Then, in my mid-20's, I hit a rough spot myself, triggered by something that happened in my life that on the surface was bad, but something that you should normally recover from in a few weeks or months time. But to me it felt like my life was over, while people around me couldn't really understand, because on the surface I was doing well and had everything going for me. I also denied to myself that the problem was largely in my own head. I didn't want to see myself as a "loser" with a psychological problem and kept telling myself that the reason for feeling this way was that I was experiencing a perfect storm of external circumstances that other people couldn't really understand.


Although I gradually recovered from it, it has really affected about 5 years of my (young) life in a negative way. Only when looking back at this period many years later in my mid 40's, I started to see it for what it was and now I regret not having taken it seriously at the time. A mental health professional holding up a mirror to me could have been a great help, but I never sought help because I didn't want to be "one of those people".


After many truly fantastic years, especially the last decade, just months ago this happy episode abruptly ended for me with a period of severe anxiety attacks (not my words, but from a professional assessment) and moderate-severe depression triggered indirectly by Covid-19. I thought: "Not this **** again!", so this time I did look for help and I am happy I did! I would say I'm now 90% better than on the day I called my GP (anxiety attacks have disappeared and depression toned down). It's amazing what simple Cognitive Behavioural Therapy (CBT) can do (I had never heard of that before).


I'm by no means a clinical case and normally a happy and stable person. But apparently I do have some character traits that make me prone to this in certain extraordinary circumstances. I guess this is why I responded so well to the CBT. There must be many people who, like me, are temporarily pushed out of balance but in their head they are facing the abyss! The experience is very real for them (us) and downright scary! Don't dismiss this (as I did myself in the past). If you have not been through this yourself, you have no idea what you are talking about.


Therefore, I encourage the recent increase in reporting about mental health issues and removal of the stigma. A great many people can be helped with CBT. In my own case the sessions were done entirely online (apart from the 45 minutes assessment to see what treatment would benefit me) and then there were "homework" assignments, self study etc. Thanks our wonderful NHS for making this available to me and others!


And going back ontopic: activities like walking, birdwatching etc are actually part of a the large toolbox that CBT is! I needed little encouragement for this part (though obviously limited by the lockdown at the time).
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: happyhiker on 10:28:57, 24/08/20
We have had the "5 a day" fad, "drink 8 pints of water a day" (or whatever it is), eat Flora not butter etc etc. I am convinced this latest mental health thing is another fad. If we believed what we hear, virtually every other person has a mental health issue. Most people get a bit fed up occasionally and Covid will have made this worse but that is far from being mentally ill. People should stop looking for problems and get on with their lives. Obviously if they really think they have a problem or feel suicidal, they should talk to somebody but let's not get our "mental health crisis" out of proportion.


Having said that, whatever state you are in, being out in the countryside, walking etc definitely lifts you.
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: harland on 10:47:58, 24/08/20
It reminds me of the bit in Crocodile Dundee:-
Sue Charlton : She found a wonderful shrink.
[seeing that Mick doesn't know what she means, then speaks in an even lower voice]   
People go to a psychiatrist to talk about their problems. She just needed to unload them. You know, bring them out in the open.
Crocodile Dundee : Hasn't she got any mates?
Sue Charlton : You're right. I guess we could all use more mates. I suppose you don't have any shrinks at Walkabout Creek.
Crocodile Dundee : Nah - - back there, if you got a problem, you tell Wally. And he tells everyone in town... brings it out in the open... no more problem.  ;D
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: tonyk on 11:04:36, 24/08/20
 The current nonsense about everyone suffering from mental health issues is driven by celebrities such as Prince Harry and Prince William who probably do have real issues themselves.When I was caring for my late father a nurse said she was worried about the effect it was having on my mental health.I didn't know whether to laugh or cry as looking after one elderly person isn't exactly a big deal.Yes,sleep is disturbed and I didn't have a proper day off,let alone a holiday,for more than four years but its not that hard to cope with.


However,I do feel for people who are currently struggling to make ends meet as that does make life very stressful but its not really a true mental health issue that comes from an internal chemical inbalance rather than external factors.If something is wrong with the brain certain external factors can trigger an episode but for most people being furloughed isn't going to lead to full blown mental illness.The result is more likely to be boredom and too much time to think.

Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: Toxicbunny on 16:53:51, 24/08/20
I believe a lot of it is a fad and those that are genuinely suffer with mental health are not taking serious due to this.  An example is when celebrities claim to suffer Anxiety. Sorry but they would not be able to get on stage or in front of a crowd or camera if they suffered anxiety. A member of my family suffers anxiety and can't go out the door and is on medication under MH for it but it does not help.  I think maybe these celebs should say they suffer from nervousness and start using different terms.
Its the same now with people saying they are vunerable during covid. If they are vunerable they would have recieved a shielding letter saying so. The reason I say this is a woman was saying she was vunerable due to asthma. I said have you a letter from GP saying you are vunerable shielded. Her answer was no the asthma not classed as serious enough.
There are a lot of narcissistic people about flippantly self diagnosing which has a detrimental affect on those genuinely ill.

Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: Mel on 18:45:09, 24/08/20
Perhaps conditions such as anxiety and depression should be re-branded an “emotional health issue”.
 
Yes, going out for a walk may help for a while, as may pill-popping.  But there’s a high chance that’s just papering over the cracks and you’ll still feel as kak on the inside when you’re not walking or stop taking the pills, etc. … because you’re avoiding dealing with the root cause.
 
The hardest part is admitting it (to yourself) and then asking for help. 
 
I think of a “mental health issue” as something that is hard-wired wrong in the brain and can only ever be controlled by medication.  It is, in effect, a lifelong condition that yes, you can learn about and understand and even talk through the impact of it on your life and learn to live with it, but it will never be cured and may re-occur if you stop taking the medication which controls it.
 
Unfortunately though, it’s all lumped under the catch-all of “mental health” which still has a stigma attached to it, despite the current mental health awareness campaign.
 
If someone is struggling with something and it is having a long-term impact on their life or affecting other areas of their life, then it doesn’t matter what’s causing it – it needs dealing with.  Plucking up the courage to do that is possibly a bigger issue than the issue itself.
 
If you have never suffered with anxiety or depression then thank your lucky stars that you’ll never understand just how soul-destroying and negatively life altering or restricting it can be....until it happens to you.
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: gunwharfman on 20:12:01, 24/08/20
'Chemical imbalance' prompted me to remember a Psychiatrist I had to deal with in the late 70s. He always wore leather gloves when at work and would NEVER touch a patient. If I took one of my clients to see him he would direct me like a conductor, to prod or poke the patient, usually if the mentally ill individual complained of a physical illness as well. He would stare intently into the patients eyes to see if he winced as I poked him. The memory of his office is still vivid in my mind, an old Victorian building, really dark oak paneling in his office and lots of shelves. The normality of hospital life was a bit different then.

For those who may remember them, there were rows of the old fashioned large glass sweet jars on the shelves and each one was filled with a clear chemical (to pickle) and each jar had thin brain slices of one patient in them, name date of birth and so on on attached. He never told me personally but other staff told me that he was of that school of thought that all psychiatric illness had physical causation.

The famous day was when one of my clients and an inpatient mate 'stole' his Porshe and drove it up the M1 until the petrol ran out. My client then phoned me for them both to be collected. I volunteered to go in my car (A dark blue Opel Kadett, my very first brand new car) with another member of staff and for us it was an entertaining day out. The Porsche wasn't damaged in anyway, just no petrol, my client just parked it neatly in a motorway service station and someone collected it sometime later. We just drove the two adventurers back to London but on the way I treated us all to lunch, (I was reimbursed the next day) they were happy and so were we! It was one of those 'One flew over the Cuckoo's nest' moments of my life.
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: Birdman on 20:30:36, 24/08/20
Yes, going out for a walk may help for a while, as may pill-popping.  But there’s a high chance that’s just papering over the cracks and you’ll still feel as kak on the inside when you’re not walking or stop taking the pills, etc. … because you’re avoiding dealing with the root cause.



It depends on the rootcause. The problem is really in your interpretation of the world around you (which is subjective and lives in the mind and can therefore be changed by you). Often anxiety and depression relate to fear about things that might happen in the future, while in reality much of that stuff will never happen or will not be half as bad as you think. Or they are related to things that happened in the past, which of course cannot be changed anymore and therefore pointless to worry about. Apart from learning to see these thoughts for what they are (just thoughts), part of the solution can also be to focus more on the here and now, because the present is the only thing that is real. And walking is a great help to promote that. If you master that, it is more than just papering over the cracks. It is changing how you see your place in the world, with all related emotional health benefits. :)

 
The interesting thing about CBT, where they teach you these things, is that they are actually derived from Stoicism, a Greek philosophy from the 3rd century BC, which was especially very influential in ancient Rome in the 1st and 2nd century AD. The Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius is one of its main philosophers and his book Meditations is one of the most important Stoic writings, along with Discourses from the Greek born philosopher Epictetus who was cripple and born a slave. There you have both sides of the spectrum. Just when you thought this is all modern faff... :)
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: Birdman on 20:32:33, 24/08/20
It was one of those 'One flew over the Cuckoo's nest' moments of my life.


This is exactly what I thought when In read your story!
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: gunwharfman on 20:33:14, 24/08/20
Sorry, I pressed the wrong button before finishing. The point I wanted to make was that I learned something important that day. It was when my client told me there was some advantage to being a mental health patient. He told me that not all mentally ill men and women were unhappy with their situation and he personally enjoyed the thrill of being the outrageous one, and with no comeback!

Stealing the Porsche for both of them was a lark and a fun day away from the monotony and drabness of the wards and of the problems of the people around them. Everyone, both staff and patients (except the Psychiatrist) thought that the 'lark' was ;) hilarious and I'm sure that some of us wished that we do such a madcap thing and get away with it.

For me, 'taking the Porshe' is a bit like hiking. It gives me a sense of freedom, I can get away from the 'rules' and 'respectibility' of my life and I like to think that I'm also doing somthing 'different' to what 'normal' people do. Of couse when hiking I am 'respectable' but it does feel different!

Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: MkPotato on 21:10:41, 24/08/20
As a new member of the forum, I’d not want to step too far out of line, but there’s clearly a lot of grey area in these kind of discussions.


It’s wrong to dismiss the debilitating effects of PTSD and major depressive illnesses as an extension of the “look at me” culture of the internet age.


If getting out on the hills helps your mental state, then good effort to all. I know that it helps be get away from the stresses of modern life.


On the other hand, watching some spoilt celebrity crying on the doorstep of their multi million pound mansion because  they can’t go out, doesn’t quite cut it to the same extent. (Although there are clearly some very fragile personalities who crave fame/adulation, and are never going to cope well with bumps in the road).
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: gunwharfman on 09:47:01, 25/08/20
A certain Mr. D. Trump springs to mind!
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: Dread on 10:29:07, 25/08/20
I see it like this. I've got 'bad' knees. I say that because they hurt often, they are sometimes debilitating and often on my mind. I've never seen a doctor about it, I just accept it. It's a health problem to me but no one else. If I went to the doc I might get some painkillers, I might get put on the list for a new knee, I don't know. I'll go if it gets really bad otherwise I cope. Moaning about it is my way of coping!


Mental health is the same. People with poor mental health can choose to carry on or to get a diagnosis. But whatever they do, if they feel it, and it affects them negatively it's a health problem.
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: gunwharfman on 10:52:15, 25/08/20
Its all very confusing, but from our point of view, knowing what we know, is it likely that getting out and about and hiking, cycling and running, for example, might help some people in some way to cope with their problems. I personally believe so, but I equally believe that it's not a cure either. So many people, when faced with 'their issues' just sit around and descend into ever-decreasing mind circles, that doesn't help I'm sure. Better in my view to feel bad, sad and be sorry for oneself 'up a mountain' than to do it indoors! Physical illness like knees, for example, need to be tacked differently but equally, all sorts of long term medical problems can also drag one down psychologically. That I believe was the lesson I learned when diagnosed with cancer, if a treatment or a sugery is on offer, take it! In my case it worked, (it may not do so with everyone) so I've had five years of normal health again. And I can keep testing myself as well, thats one of the reasons I decided to run 100 runs in 100 days recently. It made me realise that I'm still alive both physically and mentally and its a real bonus to me knowing that I am still motivated to want to live. It also made me aware and confirmed my own view of myself that on balance I have an optomistic personality and prefer to look forward rather than dwell on how I felt yesterday or feel today. Tomorrow is always more important to me.
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: Jac on 11:07:34, 25/08/20
.......... If I went to the doc I might get some painkillers, I might get put on the list for a new knee, I don't know. I'll go if it gets really bad otherwise I cope.


In this area the waiting time after being put on the list can be so long that it is a good idea to start the process with the doc before the problem seriously impacts on your life.

Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: ninthace on 11:32:40, 25/08/20
I see it like this. I've got 'bad' knees. I say that because they hurt often, they are sometimes debilitating and often on my mind. I've never seen a doctor about it, I just accept it. It's a health problem to me but no one else. If I went to the doc I might get some painkillers, I might get put on the list for a new knee, I don't know. I'll go if it gets really bad otherwise I cope. Moaning about it is my way of coping!
Then again you may just get some useful advice - it can happen.  I went to my GP with a similar issue.  I got the reassurance that it was not serious to need an intervention, yet, and basically he thought I might be overdoing it having injured it previously.  I also got the standard RICEA advice but the useful bit was he told me how to use Ibuprofen gel properly.
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: Birdman on 17:00:29, 25/08/20
So many people, when faced with 'their issues' just sit around and descend into ever-decreasing mind circles, that doesn't help I'm sure. Better in my view to feel bad, sad and be sorry for oneself 'up a mountain' than to do it indoors!


In both depression and anxiety there are often positive feedback loops (self-enforcing mechanisms) in play. And breaking that destructive loop is really part of the solution. Even when the "rootcause" is still there (there may be genuine reasons for being sad or anxious), the problem is not being sad of worried (these are normal emotions) but that it's blown out of proportion by this self-enforcing death spiral. That is the part where your mind goes wrong.


Depressed people often lack the energy to do or enjoy anything, which makes them even more depressed. It's self-enforcing. Walking de-clutters the head, so this is a good experience. Also, they can feel good about the achievement of having walked a certain distance, climbed a hill, etc, and they experience that they can actually have a nice day in the here and now. Energy and some positivism comes back, which lowers the threshold to do another good positive, etc. This helps to break the destructive spiral, even though the "seed" of their depression still exists.


In anxiety there is the dreaded  "fear of fear" cycle in play. Because it is such a horrible experience, you start fearing the fear itself and before you know it, it gets triggered almost at random. But if you learn how to control these panic attacks, you don't need to fear the fear anymore and the whole thing melts away. I don't see walking to have any specific advantage in this case (it's a different beast), other than perhaps distracting your mind.
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: Sarah Pitht on 09:20:20, 26/08/20
I think there is something about the way terminology is banded about. People may say they are depressed to mean a bit low - but not actually have a formal diagnosis. Similarly with anxiety - people usually mean worried. I have a friend who has been physically crippled by anxiety - unable to get out of bed, move, go to work, function etc. Several years on from the first acute episode it is still a fteaure of her life and although much more under control, can rear up/take over at any time.


The comment about having a bad leg got me thinking. My achilles has been [censored]/playing up since before Christmas and has worsened over the year such that running, even walking (hiking) were out of the window. When I realised it wasn't just 'going away' COVID struck and access to physios was off the menu. I found that the lack of ability to do the things I like, plus the fear that this was it - old age, physical infirmity were here to stay, fear that any activity was making it worse - and the frequent pain were the things that got me down. I wouldn't say I was depressed but my mood was definitely low. Had things continued - who knows where it might have led?


I'm seeing a physio and things have improved. I have been reassured that my achilles has got something amiss - it's not just in my head/inevitable due to ageing; I have been told I need to exercise sensibly to make my achilles heal - rest was not good for it. I still hobble first thing in the morning, but I can get out walking , if not yet the very high fell days. To be told I'm not on the scrapheap yet and I can do something has been lifting and then to get out walking has helped. Next back to the running....slowly!
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: gunwharfman on 10:55:54, 26/08/20
I started to read the papers online this morning and I easily counted 5 articles from journalists offering their advice about good mental health and how our mental health is deteriorating and how mental health problems are affecting our children. I'm sure if I made the effort I could add others and I haven't even made it to the Sun and Express yet! Not one article seems to be scoffing but I'll take a look at the Mail shortly.

I'm not suggesting the information therein is false or bad but it seems to tell me that 'mental health problems' are definately 'in' at the moment? Even one about Britney Spears! I assume that the editors must think that the subject has a 'pull' and will attract their readers and possibly bring in new ones as well?
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: Birdman on 11:22:46, 26/08/20

The problem is that all emotional problems are now pooled together as "mental health", as if they are all the same thing. Somebody suffering from real clinical depression or anxiety is something completely different than, say, some single elderly people feeling even more isolated and lonely because of Covid-19. Both require attention, but it is not helpful to pool them all under "mental health". So, as another person on this forum already suggested, we need to differentiate better with terminology.


It reminds me of the recent discussions about "wild camping", which apparently now includes people parking their car on the roadside, having a barbecue and leaving the next morning while leaving their litter behind. They are now put in the same bracket as backpack leave-no-trace camping in remote areas.
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: gunwharfman on 11:33:13, 26/08/20
One of my examples, not obvious at first but as you read the word 'stress' starts to slip in -

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/aug/26/how-to-take-the-perfect-breath-why-learning-to-breathe-properly-could-change-your-life

I could be cynical and suggest its someone who is an entrepreneur, or trying to be one, trying to 'cash in' on the umbrella term 'mental health problems' and of course the activity yoga is mentioned as well. Personally I'll just stick to running.
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: ninthace on 14:08:54, 26/08/20
One of my examples, not obvious at first but as you read the word 'stress' starts to slip in -

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/aug/26/how-to-take-the-perfect-breath-why-learning-to-breathe-properly-could-change-your-life (https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/aug/26/how-to-take-the-perfect-breath-why-learning-to-breathe-properly-could-change-your-life)

I could be cynical and suggest its someone who is an entrepreneur, or trying to be one, trying to 'cash in' on the umbrella term 'mental health problems' and of course the activity yoga is mentioned as well. Personally I'll just stick to running.
Personally I think running should be in the sucking the joy out of walking thread. but you have to be mental to want to run when you can walk :)
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: WhitstableDave on 14:14:52, 26/08/20
Personally I think running should be in the sucking the joy out of walking thread. but you have to be mental to want to run when you can walk :)
As with so many things we discuss here, walking and running are not mutually exclusive - unless, of course, you see running as exercise...  ;)
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: GoneWest on 14:21:37, 26/08/20
For any individual at any particular time, walking and running are definitely mutually exclusive! Just like when I was once told that "A Scout smiles and whistles under all circumstances".
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: ninthace on 15:02:40, 26/08/20
As with so many things we discuss here, walking and running are not mutually exclusive - unless, of course, you see running as exercise...  ;)
They certainly cannot be done concurrently.  When I worked for HM, I had to able to run a distance in a given time so I had to be in training to do it.  As an activity I found it left a lot to be desired.  It was hot, sweaty, tiring and sometimes painful with little opportunity to truly enjoy one's surroundings.  As a means of entertainment, I found it to be a non starter.  Now that HM no longer requires my services I have a choice.  Therefore, given the option of walking or running from A to B I will organise myself so that I either have sufficient time to walk there or I will arrange transport.  To do otherwise in my book is lunacy  :) which is why I light heartedly dropped the opinion into this thread but please do not use it to drift from an important subject.  À chacun son goût. O0
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: branchini1979 on 08:37:45, 29/08/20
Good Morning,


I have read all the posts and thought I would contribute my own situation.


I love the great outdoors and walking/hiking but alas I also am a social person but that side of it has fell down dramatically.
I am 40 years old and chose not to have kids and all my friends have young children that take over their lives and I rarely see anyone now.
I do go for walks where I can and it does help a bit but I miss going for long walks with people I can chat rubbish to and socialise.
This over the years has really brought me down and my depression and anxiety have gotten real bad, with loneliness and isolation being the big factor.


I don't suppose anybody knows of places I could join which would not only do local walks but trips to places like Yorkshire Dales/Lakes etc?
I did look into the our local ramblers but I know my mother in law is a member and know that I would be one of the youngest and would not quite be right for me.


I will keep going on solo walks but I do hope I am able to join people in group walks and to others that are suffering, I hope it all works out for you.
Keep walking everyone and stay healthy
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: windyrigg on 15:01:51, 29/08/20
I'm sure you would be welcomed on walks with the Ramblers and similar. Certainly I'm aware of several smaller / informal groups around here (Northumberland) with walks of varying lengths & difficulty. The Ramblers can be contacted online, other clubs and groups may take a little more searching out. I also usually walk alone (through choice) but I can see how some people have become more isolated lately. Best of luck O0
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 16:14:31, 29/08/20
I have been diagnosed with Binge Eating Disorder. I won't describe the process but it's basically an addiction. Anyway people said "No excuses!" and "commitment" and it frustrated me because I was trying really hard and they didn't seem to understand I couldn't control it. They were right but without the right mental system it was like turning the ignition on a car with no fuel in. So I searched. I found a system that handed me control back by reading books, I acted on a recommendation and read a book with a mental trick that didn't just resonate, but instantly reprogrammed my mind (our minds are remarkably plastic).

I now have control, more control than I've ever had and not just over binge eating, all of myself.

People with my condition have been scientifically shown to have structural differences in the brain or so I'm told. That doesn't matter. I have still been able to tame it using a simple trick from a book written by a PhD in psychology who conquered his own eating problems then used his psychological prowess to package his solution for others.

I hypothesise that the problems of many mental health comditions can be overcome with the right systems no matter how physical it is. All of our minds are physical right? We exist in a physical reality.

But people need a system because blindly applying willpower simply doesn't work. Willpower is required, lots of it, but it needs to be applied the right way.

So ninthace, I disagree with your post that people have the cure in their own hands but agree making victims of ourselves isn't helpful. Nobody wants to be dysfunctional all things being equal, they plainly don't have the cure in their own hands until someone convinces them they do, 100% and they believe it and live it and breathe it and shows them how to organise their mind to assert control. This may not work for everyone, I haven't walked a mile in their shoes even if I think I can relate I perceive their struggles through my own lens, I don't know what they think or how it feels to be them it could be quite different to what I estimate.

It worked for me though.
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: ninthace on 16:41:38, 29/08/20
Good Morning,


I have read all the posts and thought I would contribute my own situation.


I love the great outdoors and walking/hiking but alas I also am a social person but that side of it has fell down dramatically.
I am 40 years old and chose not to have kids and all my friends have young children that take over their lives and I rarely see anyone now.
I do go for walks where I can and it does help a bit but I miss going for long walks with people I can chat rubbish to and socialise.
This over the years has really brought me down and my depression and anxiety have gotten real bad, with loneliness and isolation being the big factor.


I don't suppose anybody knows of places I could join which would not only do local walks but trips to places like Yorkshire Dales/Lakes etc?
I did look into the our local ramblers but I know my mother in law is a member and know that I would be one of the youngest and would not quite be right for me.


I will keep going on solo walks but I do hope I am able to join people in group walks and to others that are suffering, I hope it all works out for you.
Keep walking everyone and stay healthy
You could try one or more of https://www.walkinginengland.co.uk/essex/groups.php
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: Mel on 17:22:53, 29/08/20
Hi branchini


Regarding the social isolation/loneliness factor, the age range of groups I’ve looked into joining hasn’t even crossed my mind as a reason to discount them.  Several years ago I joined our local Womens Institute, partly to support the work they do in the local community and partly because the other option was to sit in house, on my own with too much thinking time.  I’m one of the youngest in the group and, to quote our strapline, “it’s not all Jam and Jerusalem”!  Yes, they have the “traditional sub-groups” of knitting, sewing and baking and such like, but there’s also a book club, a lunch club, an evening dining club, a walking group, a cycling group, a running group and, up until lockdown, there was a fledgling canoeing group getting set up.  Not to mention the stuff the National Federation organise.  Trips away, educational stuff ranging from crafts to languages to ironmongery (you just pay your money and they sort out the rest). 
 
I think the point I’m trying to make is, don’t discount a “social group” just because of age. It might not be “just quite right for you” initially but you never know where it might take you.  You’ll never know for sure until you give it a go.  Finding reasons not to could just be the anxiety/depression talking..
 
Beyond the Ramblers, there seems to be very few “local” walking clubs that exist that do regular local walks and organise trips elsewhere.  I can imagine this being down to the health and safety red tape and politics surrounding setting up an “official” club.  All I know is there’s naff all in my local area that do weekend walks, so I have to make do with walking predominantly alone, interspersed with occasional local dog walks with my pal and a monthly local but longer walk with my group.
 
My new years resolution was to post regular forum meets on here so I could get my fix of hills and have some company (hopefully!), plus it would give me the incentive to maintain a semblance of hill-fitness.  But Covid/lockdown put paid to that.
 
For walks in the National Parks, there used to be Ranger-led walks (I’ve been on a few and always enjoyed them).  Not sure if they’re on hold at the moment though.  Similarly, your local council might have a list of walking clubs.
 
For anxiety/depression, Cognitive Behavioural Therapy is very effective.
 
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: pleb on 17:50:26, 29/08/20
There's used to be a group called the spices (as in spice of life) who did all sorts inc walks, hand gliding, etc not sure if they still exist.
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: pleb on 17:56:11, 29/08/20
It's spiceuk. Com just looked.
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: gunwharfman on 15:36:49, 30/08/20
I read this today. I've always admired Mr Cambell, he writes about his problems in what I think is a useful raw way. He also seems to have made some money out of it as well, which as a Capitalist I don't mind at all.

https://www.theguardian.com/global/2020/aug/30/alastair-campbell-surviving-depression-how-i-learned-to-live-with-my-enemy
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: Brandywell on 19:34:11, 31/08/20
I read this today. I've always admired Mr Cambell, he writes about his problems in what I think is a useful raw way. He also seems to have made some money out of it as well, which as a Capitalist I don't mind at all.

https://www.theguardian.com/global/2020/aug/30/alastair-campbell-surviving-depression-how-i-learned-to-live-with-my-enemy (https://www.theguardian.com/global/2020/aug/30/alastair-campbell-surviving-depression-how-i-learned-to-live-with-my-enemy)
My heart bleeds - He has much to be depressed about. ::)
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: gunwharfman on 20:08:07, 31/08/20
Your comment, to me anyway, reflects what I've found throughout my work life when working with people with mental health problems. Often an individual's place in society, their political stance, their colour, their religion, their sexuality and so on can often mean a lesser service. Whereas if an individual has a physical illness (e.g. cancer, heart disease, etc) most people tend to concentrate on that, other considerations about them (their politics, colour, religion, sexuality and so on) tend to be put aside, the focus generally has the hope of cure and getting better. Mental health often has a negative judgement attached to the individual by other individuals.
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 20:08:52, 31/08/20
My heart bleeds - He has much to be depressed about. ::)

You have no idea what it's like to be someone else or what might be the cause of his depression it could be trauma you know not or simply how his brain is wired or something else entirely.
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 23:13:29, 31/08/20
You are right GWM, diseases of the mind are not treated with the same compassion as physical diseases, even though many mental illnesses have underlying physical causes or are caused by severe trauma. Mental illness can disable or kill someone just as easily as cancer or heart disease and strikes people from all walks of life. Unless a person has experienced this themselves or seen loved ones struggle with the consequences, they have no idea what the extent of the suffering can be. Money, possession, position, fame - none of these are a defence against mental illness.
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 23:17:04, 31/08/20
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-53757023?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health&link_location=live-reporting-story (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-53757023?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health&link_location=live-reporting-story)


This story shows how walking and the great outdoors (and Springer Spaniels) can positively affect a person’s mental wellbeing.
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: gunwharfman on 15:58:12, 02/09/20
As a followup to the Alister Cambell newspaper article I saw him and his wife being interviewed this morning on TV. I was impressed with both of them but for different reasons. I'm impressed with her because she has stayed with her husband even though her husband's chronic depression has obviously made huge demands on their relationship. From what I gathered, his children 'stayed' as well. I admire him because even though he continues to suffer from these chronic issues he was still motivated to do his job and has done more besides.

I want to keep any politics about the man out of it, to me its the man himself that I find so interesting.
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: harland on 17:48:37, 02/09/20
You can even get his book that is released tomorrow (wonder why he was on TV) must have had a lot of advanced sales as it is reduced to £12.99 from £16.99 already.
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: gunwharfman on 13:56:52, 03/09/20
'I wonder why he was on TV?'

My view is that he's a capitalist and he earns his living from the media. He is an 'influencer' and he has a lot to 'sell,' e.g. about himself, his views on this and that (Brexit for example) his language skills, his political skills, his mental health condition and of course his family. Added together, in the Capitalist sense and in a variety of ways that 'package' is very bankable!

There are loads of other people that have these 'Unigue selling Propositions' to offer the public through the media, Andrew Neil, Piers Morgan, are just two that spring to mind. There are loads of others! Another example is Sky News, they 'buy-in' two ladies in the morning 'news' to comment on the USA, one black, (the Democrat) one white (the Republican) and they get paid to spout off (loudly!) on opposite sides of each question. They both stay in role for what they are paid to do, to 'entertain' the viewers! To me a 'nice little earner!'

To me its just Capitalism in action. I wish I had the skill to sell me to the media!
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 14:01:35, 03/09/20
I think you might have the skill GWM you're an interesting bloke why not give it a go start with an outdoors enthusiast journalist or presenter.
Title: Re: Mental Health and Hiking
Post by: harland on 17:23:04, 03/09/20
Is Speakers Corner at Hyde Park Corner still gathering crowds? GWM perhaps that is a good starting point.