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Main Boards => News and Articles => Topic started by: Lakeland Lorry on 13:09:25, 05/07/18

Title: So....why might a mountain rescue team refuse a call-out?
Post by: Lakeland Lorry on 13:09:25, 05/07/18
An update to a recent call-out:


https://www.mountain.rescue.org.uk/blog/2018/07/04/so-why-might-a-mountain-rescue-team-refuse-a-call-out/



Title: Re: So....why might a mountain rescue team refuse a call-out?
Post by: beefy on 15:39:42, 05/07/18
What was he thinking  ::)
Title: Re: So....why might a mountain rescue team refuse a call-out?
Post by: Lakeland Lorry on 15:46:14, 05/07/18
For those who missed the original posting on Grough, about the incident, here's a link to it:


https://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2018/06/24/rescuers-refuse-callout-to-wet-ben-nevis-walker
Title: Re: So....why might a mountain rescue team refuse a call-out?
Post by: pdstsp on 15:54:26, 05/07/18
Heard about this last week - and I think the article gives a pretty straight response.  It seems this particular walker employed zero forethought, and pretty much zero common sense and then didn't follow the professionals' advice.  I think the report shows the difficult decisions to be made by MR leaders - which is grossly unfair on them.  Just imagine the abuse if they get one wrong!
Title: Re: So....why might a mountain rescue team refuse a call-out?
Post by: mananddog on 16:07:07, 05/07/18
So many people think the MRTs are a publicly funded body like the emergency services which they can call at anytime they feel in trouble. Many MRT calls can be dealt with by advice - follow the path you came up was the advice in this - and perfectly sound. I think he expected they would run up there with a new set of waterproof for him or arrange a helicopter. I hope (but doubt) that he will feel thoroughly ashamed.
Title: Re: So....why might a mountain rescue team refuse a call-out?
Post by: dittzzy on 22:10:08, 05/07/18
Like any emergency service, they need to be available for when someone really needs them.  Imagine if they had gone out to rescue this guy, and then not been available for someone who had fallen?

I know....  I'm preaching to the converted.  O0
Title: Re: So....why might a mountain rescue team refuse a call-out?
Post by: sussamb on 22:29:19, 05/07/18
Unfortunately happens all the time in the ambulance service.   We're dealing with stuff we shouldn't be while hearing shout outs for cardiac arrests etc.  Need more education to impress upon folks their actions are causing others to die.  We shouldn't be going to nose bleeds, wasp/bee stings, stomach cramps, minor cuts etc etc  >:(
Title: Re: So....why might a mountain rescue team refuse a call-out?
Post by: tonyk on 13:56:27, 06/07/18
We shouldn't be going to nose bleeds,  >:(
Not too sure I agree there.Many years ago I had a severe nose bleed in the middle of the night that wouldn't stop.After an hour I phoned 999 and spoke with an operator and they gave me some advice on how to stop the nose bleed.It took another hour to get it under control but by that time my limbs had started going cold and the shower room looked  like a murder scene.I am used to being self reliant,have backpacked alone for decades and treated injuries myself but this time I was scared and that was the reason I phoned 999.Would do the same again as in my 62 years I have hardly cost the NHS much money.

Title: Re: So....why might a mountain rescue team refuse a call-out?
Post by: sussamb on 15:12:17, 06/07/18
Agreed I've been to one where the lady almost died, but I was meaning more about those who have a slight bleed rather than catastrophic bleeding  ;) .  Glad yours was resolved ok  O0
Title: Re: So....why might a mountain rescue team refuse a call-out?
Post by: phil1960 on 17:10:28, 07/07/18
We had come down from Mynydd Mawr earlier and the local MRT along with an ambulance were at the start of the path from Rhyd Ddu to Y Garn, apparently someone with heat exhaustion ( but not confirmed ). For me emergencies mean just that, there are abuses of the emergency services including MRT’s, but maybe some people just don’t appreciate or are ignorant of what they are there for  :-\
Title: Re: So....why might a mountain rescue team refuse a call-out?
Post by: Dyffryn Ardudwy on 11:47:06, 24/07/18
Its extremely rare for any Mountain rescue service to refuse a callout, but by what we can see, their services are being abused terribly by walkers who venture into the hills totally unprepared.
I just wonder how many people would scale any high mountain totally unprepared for a possible  break in the weather, if no mountain rescue service existed.

The majority of walkers know the MRS are there, and far too many abuse their existence.

Slightly off topic, but the same can be said for the A&E staff in every large hospital, having to endure hostile patients, mostly under the influence of alcohol.

The Uk has some of the most professional emergency staff in the World,   Why then do certain members of society take them for granted and abuse their trust and galant service.

Dare i say it, but it may be the way someone is brought up, to respect or disrespect certain groups in society.

I would have to be in dire need of assistance before i ever called for the Mountain Rescue Team out.

Maybe because their services are totally voluntary, that certain people in society abuse their services.

They are free service, so why not take advantage of their help,  even if their help is not required, its not going to cost me a penny, and they would never dare not come to my assistance  OR WOULD THEY ?
Title: Re: So....why might a mountain rescue team refuse a call-out?
Post by: Petrolhead on 17:30:25, 24/07/18
Incredible story.

As I'm new to all this, I find it amazing that things like this are just open to the public. I mean, it's fantastic that they are but my god some people need a very stiff talking to indeed.

Surely the way around this is for the person who takes the call at MRS to have a standard thing they say along the lines of "just to make it clear, you will be assessed at the scene and if you're deemed to be ok you will be left where you are and charged the cost of the call out"

Surely then the person in trouble, or "in trouble" would make the sensible decision, or deal with the consequences of their ridiculous decision?

We're far too soft on these people I think!
Title: Re: So....why might a mountain rescue team refuse a call-out?
Post by: jimbob on 17:48:29, 24/07/18
Incredible story.

As I'm new to all this, I find it amazing that things like this are just open to the public. I mean, it's fantastic that they are but my god some people need a very stiff talking to indeed.

Surely the way around this is for the person who takes the call at MRS to have a standard thing they say along the lines of "just to make it clear, you will be assessed at the scene and if you're deemed to be ok you will be left where you are and charged the cost of the call out"

Surely then the person in trouble, or "in trouble" would make the sensible decision, or deal with the consequences of their ridiculous decision?

We're far too soft on these people I think!
I  don't agree, because I do know people who just wouldn't call in that situation when it was absolutely the right time to do so.
In Spain they close off oaths in times of bad weather and it is publicized that call outs will cost a lot. For instance the Napoleon Route over the Pyrenees is closed between November and the end of march, and if you choose to go the other route and get caught or get into difficulties you will be charged, this is a law in Navarre.
If you are found on the closed route you will get a fine that can go up to 12.000€… If you need to be rescued, you can add the cost of the rescue party, which will be entirely yours to pay.:
 
  • 30€/h for each rescue worker
  • 65€/h for the ambulance
  • 30€/h for any other vehicle
  • 1.360€/h for air rescue
  • 1.400€/h for a rescue helicopter
  • Personally I would only agree to charges if routes and public were closed paths in times of bad weather.

    But as many members of MRS are aware that they give their time and expertise freely. If they do not want to help idiots then they will quickly leave the service.
    There is an argument that by volunteering they are allowing the Government off the hook since, in my opinion,  they should be paid for and supported by us the taxpayer. (So should the RNLI)
    Title: Re: So....why might a mountain rescue team refuse a call-out?
    Post by: Dyffryn Ardudwy on 18:34:09, 24/07/18
    Far too many times have we read, that people who are totally out of their comfort zone, wearing the most inappropriate clothing for Britains mountains, expect to receive emergency, and often medical help, at no cost to themselves.
    Having never called out the Mountain rescue, i am not fully conversant with their procedure.
    Obviously they ask the coordinated grid reference for easy identification of the persons where about's, but we are not all able to read a detailed map.
    Are you injured ?, or can the casualty move ?,,  Well sorry, i am just lost, and its raining heavily, and i have forgotten to take any suitable clothing, let alone a map and have totally ignored  the clearly advertised National Park weather forecast.

    The Mountain rescue teams no doubt have considered, and rejected a call out fee for a genuine rescue, but unless they receive Government funding, members of the public will continue to abuse their free of charge service.

    Making the rare decision  not go to a persons rescue must be a very hard one indeed,   What if that person is genuinely in danger,  and due to our decision, he dies on the mountain.


    They carry out a magnificent job, every day of the year if necessary, so why do certain people flout their very existence.
    Title: Re: So....why might a mountain rescue team refuse a call-out?
    Post by: Ridge on 19:03:57, 24/07/18
    I've yet to see any MRT say that they think they should charge for their service or that they would like to be run by the government.
    Title: Re: So....why might a mountain rescue team refuse a call-out?
    Post by: jimbob on 19:46:33, 24/07/18
    I've yet to see any MRT say that they think they should charge for their service or that they would like to be run by the government.
    I agree Ridge They do it because they want to. However there are times when  it would be better for equipment, training proper 24/7 cover and a widening of the remit which would benefit all. 

    Other countries can do it, they tend to have a full time fire and rescue service. Personally I think that is what I would like to see. Integrate the air/ sea  search and rescue into this rather than paying private companies to do so for profit. Air water support for widespread fires could also be integrated.
    Dyffryn money will be abused by idiots whether that money is through voluntary donations or through the taxpayer.  The selfish and the thoughtless do not discriminate in their me, me world. Wasting  a volunteers time has no consequences, if the service become a taxpayer led service then the matter could be dealt with in criminal courts same as wasting Fire service or police time.
    Title: Re: So....why might a mountain rescue team refuse a call-out?
    Post by: Petrolhead on 20:00:50, 24/07/18
    I  don't agree, because I do know people who just wouldn't call in that situation when it was absolutely the right time to do so.
    In Spain they close off oaths in times of bad weather and it is publicized that call outs will cost a lot. For instance the Napoleon Route over the Pyrenees is closed between November and the end of march, and if you choose to go the other route and get caught or get into difficulties you will be charged, this is a law in Navarre.
    If you are found on the closed route you will get a fine that can go up to 12.000€… If you need to be rescued, you can add the cost of the rescue party, which will be entirely yours to pay.:
     
  • 30€/h for each rescue worker
  • 65€/h for the ambulance
  • 30€/h for any other vehicle
  • 1.360€/h for air rescue
  • 1.400€/h for a rescue helicopter
  • Personally I would only agree to charges if routes and public were closed paths in times of bad weather.

    But as many members of MRS are aware that they give their time and expertise freely. If they do not want to help idiots then they will quickly leave the service.
    There is an argument that by volunteering they are allowing the Government off the hook since, in my opinion,  they should be paid for and supported by us the taxpayer. (So should the RNLI)
    [/l][/l][/l][/l][/l]
  • Jim that's cool mate, I don't agree with you either!


     ;D


    To me that's just pandering to stupidity in the other direction. If someone is going to try and walk down a mountain on a broken ankle because they don't want to call out the rescue service then that's their look out in my opinion. However I'm sure there would be many many less of those sort though. In my experience badly broken bones have a way of giving you some very good clarity!


     :)


    I've had to use helicopters for filming work and I'm well aware of the costs to get anything in the air for any use. As soon as it becomes highly specialised it jumps through the roof. With good reason.


    And that's exactly my point. If we can make stupid people think twice before doing stupid things, all the better I think. And if they're going to go ahead and do it anyway, then absolutely they should be accountable. Obviously there is some grey area, like if there was someone up there who had behavioural or emotional issues, that's a different story of course. But for the most part, it's us as a nation pampering and nannying these idiots that makes them think it's ok. If suddenly faced with a £10k bill, they might think before hand a bit... hopefully.


    Closing places to the public. I'm not so sure on this one. Maybe a permit system would be better. As a for instance, I don't know your skill level but there's a fair chance it's a good bit better than mine. There may be outings in bad weather that I wouldn't dream of, nor be capable of, yet you might be able to run up there. Why should you not be allowed to do it because I stupidly went ahead and did it anyway and got myself into a situation? Ha, or just got wet!


    As for the government and tax bit... that's a double edged sword. Absolutely of course they should be sorting things out and paying the experts accordingly but they don't and we have what we have. However, if the government was to take over, something will have to lose money to pay for it, it's not like they'll organise themselves and find some way of stopping wasting money to pay for it... Plus there will then be targets and other silly systems in place. ETA: Your point about proper training and equipment is a good one, but you only need to look at the state of some of the services the government provide to have a very clear indicator that it's not for certain it would be the big boost in the quality of the service we'd hope it would be...


    It's probably a LOT better as it is, just that no one should have to volunteer and not get adequate renumeration for the immensely difficult work they do and the situations they put themselves in.


    Bloody amazing job these folks do. I absolutely take my hat off to them and feel that anyone taking the mickey of of such an incredible service should have a rocket up their backside!
       
       
       
    [/list]
    Title: Re: So....why might a mountain rescue team refuse a call-out?
    Post by: jimbob on 00:39:30, 25/07/18
    I was led to believe that they decided to pass the law to close down routes to protect the rescuers.

    MRT give great  service but so do the police and fire brigade who are usually first port of call in these situations, (through the999 service) .Looking at the stats it is usually they who contact MRT for help.

    Title: Re: So....why might a mountain rescue team refuse a call-out?
    Post by: Dyffryn Ardudwy on 12:49:06, 25/07/18
    Visit Switzerland, where they have proper mountains.
    A friend of mine doing the Jungfrau marathon for the seventh year running, was deemed too tired to complete the event in the allotted time.

    The event has medical staff in its latter stages, and their decision is final.

    Helicopter was called in, and a handsome £400 charge for being taken back to Interlarken.


    Is it any wonder that migrants from Europe, want to come to the Uk, when everything here is handed over on a plate.

    There was no questions asked regarding not couching up the readies,  the Mountain rescue service in Switzerland charge you for the pleasure,  and rightly so.
    Title: Re: So....why might a mountain rescue team refuse a call-out?
    Post by: jimbob on 13:53:31, 25/07/18
    [quote author=Dyffryn Ardudwy link=topic=36774.msg524650#msg524650 date=1532519346
    Is it any wonder that migrants from Europe, want to come to the Uk, when everything here is handed over on a plate.

    Could that be the exact same plate that the natives take advantage of. Especially those who avoid paying their dues, either by tax avoidance or evasion, or just plain corrupt practices.
    Title: Re: So....why might a mountain rescue team refuse a call-out?
    Post by: sussamb on 14:29:19, 25/07/18
    Well said. Far more Brits fall into that category than immigrants  O0
    Title: Re: So....why might a mountain rescue team refuse a call-out?
    Post by: Dyffryn Ardudwy on 14:35:09, 25/07/18
    I totally agree, benefits are handed out, even to people who have shown little effort to find work, and its an unfortunate fact that in certain areas of the Uk, families are better off on benefits than looking for work.

    You and I are paying them to lounge about, when they could be given work.

    I am not saying get rid of the safety net, as certain people cannot work due to disability, but there are thousands who scrounge off the state, paid by us who work hard.

    Off topic i know, but i had to get it off my chest, seeing people milk the welfare state makes my blood boil.