Lost on Kinder!

[Michael]

I've been on Kinder three times in the last two weeks.  Twice I've been approached by people lost who needed help. I don't mind so much about genuine mishaps but today's case really took the biscuit.  An elderly couple not too well equipped.  Now conditions were good so I said I'd show them where they were on their map and show them the way down via Jacob's Ladder.  The map they had was a photo copy that didn't cover Kinder.  Nice Ortlieb map case though!


Once on the edge path I felt guilty abandoning them but I had work to do researching variations on a navigation course I run up there.


The previous group who asked for help 2 weeks ago were a bunch of youngsters having an adventure but lost confidence in the mist.


Has anyone else had similar experiences?

[rayf52]

Yes on about 5 occasions,a german couple,group of teenage girls,two lads in their 20s and two lone walkers. It was good weather on only one occasion the others it was misty. Some people take it for granted up there.

[oxoman1965]

Nearly every time i go up. Worst one was a bloke doing the pennine way using a guide book with no OS maps. He got lost in the mist and was starting to panic as it was day 1 and he had to get to Crowden YHA otherwise his wife would be ringing the MRT. Got him to the top of williams clough and left him with some DoE lads going in the same direction. Suggested he get proper maps and used them rather than guide book. Have not been up for 12 months as i said i would give it a couple of years and see how the work goes to restore the top goes.

[moonchip]

The more I've got back into walking on some very remote routes, by myself and well prepared the more I have developed my self-guidance on helping those who are lost :


If they are generally well prepared, well dressed for what they are doing and have just become genuinely lost or disoriented through a lack of skill or ability then I'll do all I can to help them.


On the other hand, if they are dressed totally unprepared (T-shirts in a thunder storm, high heels on scree or a boggy moor, etc...), have no map, no compass, no GPS (not even using the GPS on a smartphone), have no idea where they are and only a vague idea where they're trying to get to ...... then generally my instinct is to leave them be and to their own devices.


This may sound harsh, but I'm not anyones 'babysitter'.


I go out to enjoy myself not look after others who really shouldn't be there in the first place given their lack of preparedness. If they're over 17 and an adult then they should behave as one, not expect others to bale them out just because they couldn't be arsed


Now putting on flame proof suit awaiting the replies telling me how 'wrong' I am .......

[Michael]

This may sound harsh, but I'm not anyones 'babysitter'.

I go out to enjoy myself not look after others who really shouldn't be there in the first place given their lack of preparedness. If they're over 17 and an adult then they should behave as one, not expect others to bale them out just because they couldn't be arsed

Now putting on flame proof suit awaiting the replies telling me how 'wrong' I am .......

I don't think your comments are harsh, I guess it's how we feel as individuals.  I was feeling guilty for leaving the couple yesterday although I got them to the edge path and the way on to Jacob's Ladder was obvious from where I left them. Which was the reason for my original post.  So Thanks for your comments, they make me feel positive

[pauldawes]

I go out to enjoy myself not look after others who really shouldn't be there in the first place given their lack of preparedness. If they're over 17 and an adult then they should behave as one, not expect others to bale them out just because they couldn't be arsed


Now putting on flame proof suit awaiting the replies telling me how 'wrong' I am .......

Not saying you're wrong.... because I suspect that might be exactly how I'd feel myself.


But I also know if I found myself in that position and acted on those feelings, that once I'd got home I'd feel guilty and upset myself. Far better in the long run, I believe, to make reasonable efforts to help anybody, however poorly prepared they are, and indeed if possible to go a little out of your way to help them.


(In my case I ought... remembering some of the daft things I did early on when I started "proper" walking have more sympathy than most for other people doing silly things. But... must admit... I seem to have the facility to forget the number of times I went out ill prepared, and think "pillock" when I see somebody do something similar!)


Going back to original question. I don't often go up Kinder... probably around a dozen times in total. I've been asked for directions maybe around 4 times on those dozen walks, never thought anybody was in serious danger.

[sussamb]

I agree too ... but although I might be sorely tempted to let them get themselves out of the mess they've got themselves into my thoughts would be for the MRT, SAR teams etc that might end up having to look for them ...    ... so I suspect I'd do just enough for them to get them heading back to safety.

[Nearly there]

So how would you feel moonchip and others  ...... after turning away without helping you later learn the "ill prepared" people met a tragic end ??!!
 
 
 
Derek

[April]

I am asked quite a lot on the Lakeland Fells "Where does this path lead?" or "Does this path get me back to (name of village/place)?" by people without maps who have no idea where they are or where they are going to. It still amazes me that folk set off walking up paths not knowing where it will lead them. I always help them though and give directions and information about the fell they are on, baffled and bemused as I might be because of their lack of preparation.

[White Horse Walker]

So how would you feel moonchip and others  ...... after turning away without helping you later learn the "ill prepared" people met a tragic end ??!!
 
Derek

That's what I was thinking - but I also agree that if people are stupid enough to walk when so ill-equipped, it's not someone else's responsibility to save them from themselves.


I haven't walked in any of these areas where people so often come a cropper. Are there any warning signs or information boards explaining how dangerous it can be?


With walking being given more publicity lately, will there be an increase in people getting into trouble through ignorance?

[pauldawes]

One thing I forgot to say in my earlier posting is that my own gut feeling is that Michael got it "right" (by getting the couple onto the edge path, pointing direction to Ladder... and leaving them to their adventure). 


That.... on a good clear day with plenty of daylight left, with pair not in obvious distress... that feels like the right action to me.

[moonchip]

So how would you feel moonchip and others  ...... after turning away without helping you later learn the "ill prepared" people met a tragic end ??!!
 
 
 
Derek

An interesting question Derek and one which has given me a lot to consider in coming up with my own viewpoint on whether to help an ill prepared person who has got themselves into a predicament through their own natural stupidity. Who has failed to find out about what they intend to do, failed to mitigate any risks and just carried on regardless thinking that when they get into trouble someone else will do the 'thinking' for them and get them out of trouble....


No, I'd still leave them to their own devices


If I later found out they'd met a tragic end then my viewpoint would remain unchanged at "oh dear, a pity, never mind"


We seem to have developed a culture of people who seem to think that they can do whatever they want and others will protect and safeguard them from the consequences of their own stupidity. I have the same view towards those who drink themselves into a legless stupor in public on Friday & Saturday nights and think others will look after them.


If they fall over, hurt themselves, become unconscious, get assaulted or perish by freezing to death whilst skimpily clad then they have put themselves into that position, by their choice alone. Any consequence is entirely of their own making.


And so it is by those (in my area on the Pennines) who set off with no backpack, no change of clothes, no shelter, no first aid kit, no rain-proofs, poor footwear, no means of navigation, no food or water reserves and no knowledge of the outdoors.


If they are lost they have one simple choice - they can follow me safe in the knowledge that I will lead them in the direction of safety (unless I'm off wild camping in which case I'll tell them I'm going AWAY from civilisation, not towards it) though they could still follow me if I knew my route would intersect a known path which would then lead & safely guide them to a position of safety.


It may not be where they wanted to go, but safe and in the wrong place is better than unsafe & lost on an open moor.


Would I feel bad if these people 'came a cropper' or befell a tragic end by failing to make such a simple choice ?


No, I wouldn't

[Adam1]

Moonchip, my thoughts exactly.

[Nearly there]

In my case I ought... remembering some of the daft things I did early on when I started "proper" walking have more sympathy than most for other people doing silly things. But... must admit... I seem to have the facility to forget the number of times I went out ill prepared, and think "pillock" when I see somebody do something similar!

Exactly Paul............ but some people have short memories of their own early walking days !
 
moonchip............it takes all sorts to make a world, including your sort !
I guess we won't see you joining a MRT then !
 
So what would I do if I ever saw you alone and seriously hurt on a "hill" somewhere .......... hmmmmmm 
 
No, your wrong, I would do all I could to help........... but that's me !
 
 
Derek

[mananddog]

I would always help people out - I have done many, many times over the last 40+ years of mountaineering and hill walking of various types - usually with a bit of a lecture about their shortcomings and gentle advise for the future. I would go far enough out of my way to ensure that they were no longer in danger provided they followed my instructions.
 
I draw an analogy with the time I met a very distressed teenager in a very rough part of Manchester who had got lost (the days before mobiles). I put her on the right bus so she could get back into town and then home. I suppose I should have left her to the local two-legged wolves who were circling her.
 

If they fall over, hurt themselves, become unconscious, get assaulted or perish by freezing to death whilst skimpily clad then they have put themselves into that position, by their choice alone. Any consequence is entirely of their own making.

Would I feel bad if these people 'came a cropper' or befell a tragic end by failing to make such a simple choice ?

No, I wouldn't

It would be very helpful to us all for you to post a picture of yourself so if we meet you injured on the hill we know you are the guy who will sort himself out and does not need our help or that of the MRT. Better still why not have "please do not help" tattoed somewhere obvious. 
 
 
The fact that I have never had to use the MRT I put down to good fortune as much as experience.