Walking Forum

Regions - Trip reports, destination advice, recommended routes, etc. => Lake District => Topic started by: April on 20:05:41, 31/01/18

Title: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 20:05:41, 31/01/18
Have people had a chance to look at the application yet?

Application here
http://bit.ly/2ncl7Sc

I just wondered what others think about it. After looking at most of the documents I am a bit confused with a few things.

The proposals are for two zip wires. The higher wire starts below Black Star close to the via ferrata and will take people 3/4 of the way down, then they have to get to change onto the lower wire. The application claims that no more than 57 people a day will descend on it. I'm not sure how they get this figure because the top wire will only be used by via ferrata users and there are 3 groups of 12 people who use this per day? Isn't that 36?  :-\

The intermediate zip wire lower down will be "accessible to all" including under 10's and disabled people who will access this wire by bus? Or could people walk up too? This bottom wire doesn't seem to be included in the management plan unless I've missed it. So how many people will be allowed to use this lower wire per day?

On the noise report they say the screams and shouts won't be heard by humans but on another document it says there will be a noise impact. Which of these claims is correct?

Honister say the wire will also be used to transport slate during the winter when the wire isn't being used by the public.

Compared to the Thirlmere application this zip wire proposal looks almost "reasonable" but is that only because the claims by TTT in the proposal at Thirlmere are so ludicrous? Honister have sought to address the reasons why the last application was refused.

This is in a National Park, so should this application be refused or approved?

I could never support it myself but I know others who are against Thirlmere who would support this here at Honister. I can't really get my head round that idea, not at Thirlmere but alright on the side of Fleetwith Pike?

It will be interesting to see the responses about Honister from the organisations who have opposed the Thirlmere proposal.

Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Ridge on 20:54:04, 31/01/18
Once the wire is there then if 200 people turn up to ride it on every Saturday in the summer you can bet your life that there will start to be more than 57 users a day.


While I can see that there are some places where a zip wire is 'less worse' than others nothing will convince me that there should be one in a National Park.


It will come as no surprise to anyone that I will be objecting.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: beefy on 21:05:26, 31/01/18

While I can see that there are some places where a zip wire is 'less worse' than others nothing will convince me that there should be one in a National Park.
Im with Ridge on this one,
its a national park for Gods sake  :(
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 21:14:13, 31/01/18
So that is 3 of us against, is there anyone on here who would support Honister but was against Thirlmere? I can see it is "less worse" as Ridge puts it but I would like to understand the reasoning behind supporting one and not the other.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Mel on 21:17:26, 31/01/18
If my memory serves me correctly, this is the third application for a zip wire Honister Slate Mine have submitted  >:(


From 2013:  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-20890063 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-20890063)


What part of "no" don't they understand?  >:(
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Ridge on 21:27:45, 31/01/18
is there anyone on here who would support Honister but was against Thirlmere?
as we will try to gently persuade then to change their mind by the power of our well thought through arguments.
 :knuppel2: :tickedoff: :knuppel2:
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 21:47:39, 31/01/18
gently persuade

:knuppel2: :tickedoff: :knuppel2:

 :) Now Ridge, I really do want to try and understand why someone would be for Honister but against Thirlmere. Posting  :knuppel2: :knuppel2: won't encourage people to post their views. We will be gentle with you   ;)
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 23:28:36, 31/01/18
I'm another against this one.  I assume that the timing is on the basis that nobody can be bothered fighting against two proposals at the same time. 
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Addingham on 23:48:23, 31/01/18
If my memory serves me correctly, this is the third application for a zip wire Honister Slate Mine have submitted  >:(


From 2013:  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-20890063 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-20890063)


What part of "no" don't they understand?  >:(


Sir Chris Bonington spoke in favour of its installation :-[  That tells a story :(
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Strider on 00:49:29, 01/02/18
From Mel's link:

Quote
Supporters of the proposal said it would have allowed visitors to return to the base of the mine visitor attraction without damaging the fragile alpine environment on foot.

Is this the same fragile alpine environment they're dumping slag heaps from their mining operation all over?

Quote
However, National Park planners said there was a "fundamental principal" at stake that the mountain tops were not the right place for such an activity.

Well if that principal is still in place then why would this application have any more success than the last one did? 
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 08:43:42, 01/02/18
If my memory serves me correctly, this is the third application for a zip wire Honister Slate Mine have submitted  >:(

This is the new and "improved" application.

Is this the same fragile alpine environment they're dumping slag heaps from their mining operation all over?

It is the same fragile alpine environment. The plans for the zip wire this time are different in that the start of the wire is from near the via ferrata course close to a mine tunnel and not from Black Star top. The plans show they will use posts and wires next to any vegetation to keep via ferrata bods on the other side and away from it as they walk from the via ferrata to the zip wire start. Or Aerial Flight as Honister are calling it.

I wonder if the planners will interpret this plan is as being on a "mountain top" this time? The start of the top wire is proposed to be approx. 100m (in height) below the summit. So will they deem the side of a mountain, close to the top, not the right place for such an activity?

I thought I'd read in one of the documents that the lower zip wire would only be used by people on the mine tour but I can't see where I read that amongst the documents. They have one mine tour per day. If they are limiting the numbers of participants so much, how are they going to make money from it? They haven't quoted any prices for the "aerial flight" that I can see.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Dovegirl on 13:55:33, 01/02/18
I'm against the Honister zip wire. I don't think national parks and AONBs are the place for these things.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: happyhiker on 17:36:11, 01/02/18
Given the timing, I suspect it's a case of submitting this application which will be hard to refuse if the a Thirlmere application succeeds. I am less opposed to the Honister one, though that does not mean I am not opposed at all.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Dazza on 19:53:21, 01/02/18
I wouldn't support this though arguably it's less scenic than Thirlmere.

I thought there already was a zip wire in the lakes, at Go Ape in Whinlatter. Though probably not on the scale of the Honister and Thirlmere.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 08:58:03, 07/02/18
Dazza there are zip wires, at Whinlatter, Grizedale Forest and at Brockhole but as you say on a smaller scale.

I am going to draught my letter of objection later on, I wonder if there will be a zip off Honister campaign? I think a lot of people see this as "not quite as bad" as Thirlmere, so they may not be so actively against it?
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: photonut on 13:29:31, 07/02/18
I'm against ALL zip wires in the National Park.

If you want to put up zip wires...  'Zip-off' to Blackpool to the theme park!!!   :tickedoff:
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 08:47:46, 22/02/18
Here is a photo from a wild camp on Rosthwaite Fell from last year

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4385/35908975993_73e81cec36_z.jpg) (http://)

Fleetwith Pike and Honister Crag is seen in the centre of the shot. The zip wire would go across the side of Honister Crag.

I still can't see how some people think this would ok here but not at Thirlmere. Please post a response if you are of that opinion, I just want to understand why. The ugly scar from the quarry is on the other side of the fell so you can't say it is because it is in a quarry?
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Ridge on 09:00:35, 22/02/18
Lovely photo.


I have had a hunt on line and can find nothing. Does anyone else know of any quarry in the world that uses a zip wire for moving stone? If you look at the application that is the first purpose listed and the major difference between this application and Thirlmere.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: beefy on 09:50:49, 22/02/18
Lovely photo.


I have had a hunt on line and can find nothing. Does anyone else know of any quarry in the world that uses a zip wire for moving stone? If you look at the application that is the first purpose listed and the major difference between this application and Thirlmere.
Zip wire for moving stone looks like a

Trojan horse  to me Ridge  >:(
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 14:17:21, 28/02/18
The Friends of the Lake District are going to object to the zip wire proposal at Honister. Good for them to stick to their principles  O0 I agree with them about the numbers of people using the shorter, lower down zip wire seems to uncertain/unknown. Surely the LDNP will need that clarified before they can make a decision?

https://www.friendsofthelakedistrict.org.uk/pages/FAQs/category/hot-topic


Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Lakeland Lorry on 14:56:09, 28/02/18
I have had a hunt on line and can find nothing. Does anyone else know of any quarry in the world that uses a zip wire for moving stone? If you look at the application that is the first purpose listed and the major difference between this application and Thirlmere.

Not that I'm in favour of the zip wire going in at Honister, but there was an aerial pulley system, called the Lancaster Aerial, in use at Honister.  It was used to take slabs of slate down to the mine building for processing.   Apparently it was removed in the 1950s.

http://honister.com/history/



Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 17:45:37, 28/02/18
I have also concluded that this is not a development which should be allowed in the National Park.  I think the plan is less bad than Thirlmere only on the grounds that the only people able to use the wire, or top section of it anyway, are those who have already completed the via ferrata.


On the question of whether this is the type of development which should be set in the fells - I cannot think it is desirable.  Lakeland Lorry's link is really interesting, but one thing it does show is that, while this type of development was there in the past, it has been removed - and I think most would agree that the fellside is a better place without it.  It seems to me to be a retrograde step to reinstate it.  I find it hard to believe that there is no other economic system to move the rock down to the hause, though I accept that my engineering knowledge runs to the easier end of the lego scale.


However, I suspect that this application is more likely to succeed than the Turnip Plantation scheme at Thirlmere - for the reasons that there is already a quarry there, that there is already a via ferrata there and, therefore, the impact of the wire will be argued to be less severe than was the case at Thirlmere.  I hope I am wrong - and I have written my email of opposition. 


Paul
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 18:24:03, 28/02/18
my engineering knowledge runs to the easier end of the lego scale.

 ;D That sounds quite technical to me  :D

If this does get approved at least the top zippers will have to climb up the via ferrata, put some effort in to earn the right to use the zip wire. I still oppose the plan, for me it just isn't right to have this playground ride on a fell side, quarry there or not. I just think the Coniston area would be next, the Coppermines valley would be high up on someone's list of where they could put a zip wire in a quarry in the Lakes that might get approval. I'm surprised that Clive Hutchby is supporting it, he is the man updating the Wainwrights  :o I'll add these new guides to my banned list, I won't give my money or custom to anyone who supports these zip wires, they are just wrong IMO.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 13:35:08, 08/03/18
The Wainwright Society has objected to the zip wire, see below. The title at the top of the article has an error in it, mentioning Thirlmere, it should say Honister.

https://wainwright.org.uk/articles/2018/wainwright-honister-zip-wire-response.html

Natural England are wanting more information about the proposal and have asked LDNPA for this before they can give their opinion, see the letter on LDNPA Honister planning app page:
http://www.lakedistrict.gov.uk/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=7/2018/2011

The time for email or letters to be sent in has been extended until 26th Mar 18
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 12:17:33, 09/03/18
The Cumbria Wildlife Trust have also objected to the proposals at Honister

See their letter on the planning app link
http://www.lakedistrict.gov.uk/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=7/2018/2011
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 13:06:50, 09/03/18
Thanks for the updates April. Interestingly CWT have objected on the basis of the lack of an Appropriate Assessment and that they didn't object to Thirlmere.  I think the earlier comments are being borne out here, there just seems to be less of an all round anti feeling about this application than there was at Thirlmere.


Paul
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 18:48:38, 14/03/18
there just seems to be less of an all round anti feeling about this application than there was at Thirlmere.

I just can't understand why  :(  The zip wire at Honister would have the same negative impact as the Thirlmere zip wires.

The Friends of the Lake District full response to LDNPA is now available to look at on the Aerial Flight at Honister tab. Excellent work from Laura Fiske again. To those who were against Thirlmere but support Honister, perhaps you should read this response and have another think about it.

https://www.friendsofthelakedistrict.org.uk/pages/FAQs/category/hot-topic

A facebook page has just been set up - Zip Off Honister
https://www.facebook.com/ZipoffHonister-166592493975578/



Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 19:45:20, 14/03/18
Great letter from Laura Fiske - she has done a good job of going through the application step by step.  That should be required reading.  Thanks for posting, April.


I took a long time looking across from High Snock Rigg on Sunday at Honister Crags and I'm glad I did - there really is no positive side to this proposal - it has no place in this environment!


Paul
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 07:07:21, 15/03/18
I took a long time looking across from High Snock Rigg on Sunday at Honister Crags and I'm glad I did - there really is no positive side to this proposal - it has no place in this environment!

It most certainly doesn't  :(

I realised from reading Laura's letter that the zip wire starting point is the same as it was in the last refused application. I thought the start of the wire was proposed to be on the top of Black Star in that last application. Looking at the past plans on LDNP website, it was the first application where the zip wire was planned to start from the top of Black Star.

So this is bad news that my memory isn't very good but good news that the zip wire was refused the last time, the proposal hasn't changed that much.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Ridge on 08:33:11, 15/03/18
It is a very well written document.


My hope is that it will also be rejected, which as it was thrown out before it should be,  and then people will get the hint that this type of development will never be given the green light.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Ridge on 11:44:42, 17/03/18
The Wainwright Society has objected to the zip wire, see below. The title at the top of the article has an error in it, mentioning Thirlmere, it should say Honister.
They have corrected the title. Shame it is only signed by the Secretary and not also the Chairman.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: jontea on 10:25:16, 18/03/18
Yes thanks April for keeping us updated on this proposal.
It’s a good letter from Friends of the Lake District and I sincerely hope it carries enough weight along with other objectors to stop these zip wire applications.
It’s the thin edge of the wedge. Honister today, Coniston tomorrow  >:(


They have no place in any national park.


Keep thrill rides out of the Lake District is what I say  O0
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 18:08:44, 18/03/18
They have corrected the title. Shame it is only signed by the Secretary and not also the Chairman.

I would love to know what Eric Robson's thoughts are on these zip wires  :)

Honister today, Coniston tomorrow  >:(
They have no place in any national park.

Exactly what I think too  :)
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 08:46:35, 26/03/18
The Open Spaces Society and Buttermere Parish Council have objected to this proposal now O0 Their letters are on the LDNPA planning website.

Today is the last day to put your thoughts forward to the LDNP about this proposal.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Ridge on 09:04:18, 26/03/18
I would love to know what Eric Robson's thoughts are on these zip wires  :)
From time to time I ask either Eric Robson or the Wainwright Society what his opinion is on zip wires. You should try it the silence is deafening.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 09:42:50, 26/03/18
Eric Robson silent - maybe something to do with his conflicts of interest  >:(
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Ridge on 10:08:06, 26/03/18
Try it for yourself.
It also gives an outing for the word 'untenable' which I don't often get a chance to use.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 12:40:22, 26/03/18
Sounds fun - I'll give it a go.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 13:20:52, 26/03/18
From time to time I ask either Eric Robson or the Wainwright Society what his opinion is on zip wires. You should try it the silence is deafening.

Eric Robson silent - maybe something to do with his conflicts of interest  >:(

I find it astounding how many people who have businesses are not talking about this proposal. They don't want to openly be approving of it in case it loses them business. I personally will never buy anything from Eric Robson's business again (Striding Edge online shop) because he has remained silent on both the zip wire proposals. I can only assume he is in favour of them?
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Ridge on 14:29:29, 29/03/18
Just had a very evasive reply from the Wainwright Society


Quote
Dear Mr Ridge


Thank you for your email.


I have checked with the Membership Secretary and it would appear that you are not a member of The Wainwright Society.


What I am able to tell you is that the Management Committee of the Society takes a collective view of any planning applications that are brought to our attention. Each proposal is considered carefully on its merits and the Society’s response is in line with the criteria laid out in our Campaigns Policy. As Secretary of the Society, my responsibility is to put forward the collective view to the wider world. You can read the statements regarding the Thirlmere and Honister zip wires submitted to the Planning Authority here:


http://www.wainwright.org.uk/articles/2017/thirlmere-zip-wire-objection.html (http://www.wainwright.org.uk/articles/2017/thirlmere-zip-wire-objection.html)


http://www.wainwright.org.uk/articles/2018/wainwright-honister-zip-wire-response.html (http://www.wainwright.org.uk/articles/2018/wainwright-honister-zip-wire-response.html)


With best wishes


Derek Cockell
Secretary
The Wainwright Society
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 21:16:35, 29/03/18
Just had a very evasive reply from the Wainwright Society

A tad evasive  :D

Why can't Eric tell us what he thinks? He must have an opinion if he cares about the Lake District?
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Ridge on 21:21:55, 29/03/18
I can only think of one reason that he wont say. As I said in my reply I wouldn't consider joining the AW Soc currently.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 13:38:30, 02/05/18
Does anyone know if this is being considered today?  I know the 3rd update stated that it would be considered no earlier than today's meeting.  I have sent an email to the planning department but not had any response as yet.



Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 13:48:11, 02/05/18
Sorry - just answered my own question - this was not on the published agenda for today's meeting.


 http://www.lakedistrict.gov.uk/aboutus/committee-meetings-calendar/development_control_committee/development-control-committee65 (http://www.lakedistrict.gov.uk/aboutus/committee-meetings-calendar/development_control_committee/development-control-committee65)


Paul


Also just noticed that the minutes of the April meeting say that there will be a site inspection at Honister on 9 May.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 20:30:29, 02/05/18
Also just noticed that the minutes of the April meeting say that there will be a site inspection at Honister on 9 May.

The next committee meeting is on 6th June. D Day. If the decision is going to be made then it is an apt date to make it. Let us hope it is the right decision and it is refused.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 20:40:45, 02/05/18
That would be great!! Though I wonder if they will make a decision within 3 or 4 weeks.  Fingers are crossed -
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 17:14:53, 30/05/18
This does not appear to be on the agenda for next week's meeting - they are dragging this one out
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 19:26:05, 30/05/18
No it isn't on the agenda, I checked last night. I wonder if they think if they leave it a few more months we will have forgotten about it?
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 08:56:56, 21/06/18
Update on the LDNP website is that 1st August is when this application goes to committee.

Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 09:05:36, 21/06/18
Thanks April - do you know if they release the case officer's recommendations in advance of the meeting?
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 12:09:56, 21/06/18
Just looked at the update again and it says "no sooner than 1 Aug". They must have asked Honister for more info on the transportation of the slate, it says the planners are awaiting this info and will put it on the website when they receive it.

@ pdstsp - I think the case officer does normally release his recommendation before the committee meeting.

Looking at that Local Plan and the silly ideas on it, I dread to think what is going to happen with this one  :(
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 10:17:11, 24/07/18
Papers have gone up for next week's planning meeting - I can't see this one on the papers so presumably it's going to be another month at least before a decision is made.  This one is running and running.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 12:35:10, 24/07/18
Papers have gone up for next week's planning meeting - I can't see this one on the papers so presumably it's going to be another month at least before a decision is made.  This one is running and running.

Thanks pdstsp.

I checked the planning application yesterday and there is still no response on there from Honister about the slate transportation query.

For those interested the Zip Off (Thirlmere) team have a new fb page, they are also very concerned about the LDNP plan review
https://www.facebook.com/zipofflakeswatch/

Look at their post on 18 July at 21.31 and the 76 comments. It is very upsetting to read how worried the Thornthwaite residents are. I hope they know how many people will be fighting to stop the gondola development up to Whinlatter. Not needed or wanted, Mr Leafe.


Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 12:58:47, 24/07/18
Under Leafe it seems that the park is actually under attack from the people who are meant to support it!  It's very easy to imagine the so called stake-holders conspiring to come up with any idea which might make a buck or two.  Some of the comments comparing the lakes to the alps are just mad.  I walk regularly in the alps and like most walkers I head as far away from the ski infrastructure as possible as it scars the landscape so much.  I bet there's a lot of pressure coming on the planning officers to pass the Honister plan - just to get the wedge in the door.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 13:03:36, 24/07/18
Under Leafe it seems that the park is actually under attack from the people who are meant to support it! 

It is incredible, he seems to have forgotten what the National Parks were created for. He thinks his job is to increase tourist numbers.

Mr Leafe your job is to protect the environment from inappropriate development.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: richardh1905 on 13:11:43, 24/07/18

  I walk regularly in the alps and like most walkers I head as far away from the ski infrastructure as possible as it scars the landscape so much.


Indeed; I was quite shocked to see the despoliation of one remote valley that we crossed into whilst on a wild camping trip in the French Alps many years ago. I doubt that the land will recover within the span of a human lifetime.


Sadly the same is true for the Cairn Gorm ski development - despoliation for the sake of money.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 20:57:35, 28/08/18
Not on next week's agenda.  Trying to sneak this one through.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 06:52:17, 29/08/18
Not on next week's agenda.  Trying to sneak this one through.

There is still nothing on the planning app from Honister about the slate transportation query, looks like they are struggling to find an answer?
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 08:03:14, 29/08/18
Or waiting till everyone's bored!  Perhaps Douglas Chalmers was right - waiting till after their busy period.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 08:37:48, 29/08/18
I do hope they are struggling to come up with a slate transportation method that won't damage the environment up there.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 18:30:26, 06/09/18
See below, there is a planning update with new info on the transportation of the slate. A decision is being made on 7 Nov 18. Any responses to this new information should be sent to the LDNPA by 8 Oct 18.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/ZipoffHonister-166592493975578/photos/?tab=album&album_id=266683433966483&__xts__%5B0%5D=68.ARAbGeozaT85SZaL2eITTIkwqWUX0SO54ZqX0YP5JCfreJ7V9Ab6x3PvYhx8DlZHQh0FFTLZF1qK0QPm-OTS67M0WYSe2baJOxONXk8MvWuSL2kJFPF4nFtVK5gq-9Kw84M9CtMXGLoTbc9y-mkeMN5Sb4D85Hc06fWhvOPwcVkIi5qHTxTk&__tn__=-UC-R
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 19:28:06, 06/09/18
I've just looked at the new documents on the LDNPA planning page. There are still no answers that I can see about the numbers of people who will be allowed to use the "access for all" zip wire lower down.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 10:06:15, 07/09/18
Agreed - the only reference to people I can find is in the document entitled Slate Transportation and Visitor Management which refers to people having the choice of continuing up to the top of the via ferrata or descending via the zip wire.  The questions have simply not been answered.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: richardh1905 on 12:31:50, 07/09/18
I have some sympathy with the quarry owners trying to make a living; the quarry is part of the Lake District's heritage every bit as much as the sheep shorn fells, but I do have reservations about the additional traffic that may be generated by this proposal - how much can Honister Pass take?
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: fernman on 21:03:06, 07/09/18
BBC4 Tuesday 11 September 12 a.m (= midnight)
Tales from the National Parks
In the Lake District, filmmaker Richard Macer follows the story of entrepreneur Mark Weir's attempts to build a giant zip-wire ride from the top of a mountain.

Edited to correct a typo in a name, and perhaps it's worth pointing out that it's not new, it's been on before.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 18:56:54, 28/10/18
From the Zip Off Honister fb page

"Honister Slate Mine - Dual purpose aerial wire for extraction of stone and tourism use - planners' recommendation is to REFUSE.

The meeting of the Development Control Committee is on Wednesday 7th of November 2018.

You can find this information in its original format by looking here:
www.lakedistrict.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0010/1398592/2018_11_07-Schedule-Summary.pdf?fbclid=IwAR2C7jx-xXCOxf-CENQveSqpq9jvzWKE3GhMwBrO4jGOzPcpnyXKkOXNinw"

I hope the Development Control Committee agree with the planners.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Ridge on 20:03:50, 28/10/18
I guess that is as good as it could be at this stage.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 13:01:33, 31/10/18
The full report from the planners is now on the planning app page, just reading through it.

Interesting that Burlington Quarry in Elterwater are in support of the zip wire. How about a zip wire from Lingmoor Fell? 



Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: photonut on 13:21:31, 31/10/18
The full report from the planners is now on the planning app page, just reading through it.

Interesting that Burlington Quarry in Elterwater are in support of the zip wire.


Hmmm... there is probably a financial connection hidden somewhere  :(

How about a zip wire from Lingmoor Fell? 

Noooooooooo.... don't say that  :-X


The report is quite a read.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 16:27:04, 31/10/18
Good news, I think.  The committee will have to have some very strong arguments to go against the recommendation.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: ninthace on 18:16:10, 31/10/18
Good news, I think.  The committee will have to have some very strong arguments to go against the recommendation.

Use to be true but less so these days - decisions can go against the planning officer's recommendation.  Moreover, a refusal can always go to appeal.  If the decision is reversed at appeal then the Authority has to bear the legal costs of the applicant as well as its own so it is easier to approve an application rather than risk an appeal and bear the costs if there is any doubt.  As far as I can tell, if an application goes to appeal, the decision is made by the Secretary of State using the paperwork submitted by the applicant and the Planning Authority; there is no hearing. Decisions tend to be in line with government planning policy without the benefit of local knowledge of the situation - again the Committee know this.  The system is further imbalanced in that there is no appeal if an application is approved by the Planning Authority.   So "yes" means "yes" but "no" does not necessarily mean "no".
Another tactic is for the Committee to say it is "minded" to refuse or approve.  This defers the decision to the next meeting but since the representations have been made, they cannot be reheard.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 18:59:41, 31/10/18
I stand corrected, however is there no right of appeal to the planning inspectorate - I seem to remember doing this year's ago?
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: ninthace on 19:27:11, 31/10/18
I stand corrected, however is there no right of appeal to the planning inspectorate - I seem to remember doing this year's ago?
According to the government website:
You can challenge the decision in the High Court if you think the Planning Inspectorate made a legal mistake.
One thing I may have been wrong about though, I think you may be able to make representations to the planning inspectorate as part of the appeal process. Best check directly with the Planning Portal.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 20:28:04, 31/10/18
Noooooooooo.... don't say that  :-X

This might be the next zip wire planning app if Honister gets the go ahead. Precedent set, how could they say no?

Good news, I think.  The committee will have to have some very strong arguments to go against the recommendation.

I would like to think so too but it was a close run thing last time. There is some support for the Honister Zip Wire from people who opposed Thirlmere. I still can't comprehend why, surely the same principles should apply everywhere in the Lake District, eg. the Sandford one!
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: photonut on 15:29:53, 01/11/18
This might be the next zip wire planning app if Honister gets the go ahead. Precedent set, how could they say no?
 

This is just getting silly and really out of hand.  Perhaps it's about time these 'make a quick buck' businessmen really thought long and hard about the implications of what they are doing.  I don't just mean about themselves either.

Interestingly, I was reading the Acoustic Report provided by Hann Tucker yesterday and that was quite intriguing how the measured noise survey  data and 'appropriate' acoustic qualifiers were... erm... how should I put it.... used very carefully :(


Rather alarming tbh
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 18:58:20, 01/11/18
Interestingly, I was reading the Acoustic Report provided by Hann Tucker yesterday and that was quite intriguing how the measured noise survey  data and 'appropriate' acoustic qualifiers were... erm... how should I put it.... used very carefully :(

I thought their sound report was a total load of b*ll*x   ;D
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: photonut on 08:16:22, 02/11/18
I thought their sound report was a total load of b*ll*x   ;D

Ha ha... say what you mean April, no point being ambiguous!  ;D
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 08:37:55, 02/11/18
 :)

Most people on here know when you are out on the fells you can here people shouting from half a mile away. It is no different on Fleetwith Pike despite what that daft report states.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: fernman on 09:40:47, 02/11/18
:)

Most people on here know when you are out on the fells you can here people shouting from half a mile away. It is no different on Fleetwith Pike despite what that daft report states.

Yup, you can hear the screams from Zip World at Blaenau Ffestiniog from a great distance away.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: photonut on 09:53:30, 02/11/18
:)

Most people on here know when you are out on the fells you can here people shouting from half a mile away. It is no different on Fleetwith Pike despite what that daft report states.

I agree 100%.  I share your views and was quite amazed at how the information was presented to provide a 'feasible' argument to show how there would be little or no impact.


Grrrrrrrrrrr
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 08:48:27, 07/11/18
It is decision day folks. Fingers crossed the committee make the right decision for the future of the Lake District. I dread to think what will happen in other mine areas if this gets approved.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 09:01:50, 07/11/18
Fingers well and truly crossed.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: ninthace on 09:45:51, 07/11/18
Yes indeed. Let us hope we see democracy in action rather than inaction.


Talking of what can be done with mines April. Here is a better example https://www.claytrails.co.uk/ (https://www.claytrails.co.uk/)
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Jac on 09:54:15, 07/11/18
Talking of what can be done with mines....................................….

[/color]  
Another example in Cornwall [/color]  

http://www.gps-routes.co.uk/routes/home.nsf/RoutesLinksCycle/great-flat-lode-trail-walking-and-cycle-route



Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Lakeland Lorry on 12:36:12, 07/11/18
It's just been announced on Twitter that the Honister Zip Wire has been approved.


It's been approved subject to conditions (not sure which conditions).  The 10 member committee voted 7-3 in favour.


Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: ninthace on 12:44:28, 07/11/18




Sheesh!  What did I say about planning committees?  :( :tickedoff:
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Lakeland Lorry on 12:48:16, 07/11/18
Richard Leafe (Lake District National Park Chief) has just posted this on his Twitter account:


A good outcome for adventure and supporting our mining heritage in the Lakes. Well done Honister.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 12:56:07, 07/11/18
Adventure my a#se!  This isn't an adventure it's a fairground ride.  I am sickened by this - the LDNPA should hang their heads in shame.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: ninthace on 13:05:14, 07/11/18
It's been approved subject to conditions (not sure which conditions).  The 10 member committee voted 7-3 in favour.


Now watch the next step, a drip feed of applications to vary any conditions that get in the way - these do not normally get referred to the planning committee.
Things I have seen:
- an application that included preservation of trees followed by a variation to knock down the trees that got in the way of builders vehicles.
- an application that included a fitness trail followed by a variation to just put up a bench.
- an application that had a blank wall to prevent overlooking followed by a variation to put a window in (they even built a bricked in window in the construction to knock out later.)
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 13:15:17, 07/11/18
ninthace - what would the position be if the noise levels are actually as bad as people fear they will be?  Is there any way that someone can appeal later on the basis that the installation produces more noise/traffic etc than is set out in the application?


Paul
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Mel on 13:16:16, 07/11/18
Richard Leafe (Lake District National Park Chief) has just posted this on his Twitter account:


A good outcome for adventure and supporting our mining heritage in the Lakes. Well done Honister.


Sad news  :(
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 13:22:11, 07/11/18
Adventure my a#se!  This isn't an adventure it's a fairground ride.  I am sickened by this - the LDNPA should hang their heads in shame.

I am sickened by this too  >:(

Now watch the next step, a drip feed of applications to vary any conditions that get in the way - these do not normally get referred to the planning committee.

Exactly. This marks the start of the demise of the Lake District for me, it is obvious the current LDNP leadership have a different idea of what "adventure" means to the rest of us.

I will make a visit to Fleetwith Pike for the last time before this monstrosity is built. I won't go back again.  :(
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Dovegirl on 13:27:55, 07/11/18
Richard Leafe (Lake District National Park Chief) has just posted this on his Twitter account:


A good outcome for adventure and supporting our mining heritage in the Lakes. Well done Honister.

A shameful outcome
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: beefy on 13:31:34, 07/11/18
Thin end of the wedge for the lakes
Every [censored] is now going to apply
Alton towers district
Shameful
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: ninthace on 13:43:48, 07/11/18
ninthace - what would the position be if the noise levels are actually as bad as people fear they will be?  Is there any way that someone can appeal later on the basis that the installation produces more noise/traffic etc than is set out in the application?


Paul


I honestly do not know what the legal position is once permission has been granted and the thing has been built and is operating.  This is my guess.
If the conditions imposed as part of the planning permission include limiting noise then you could ask the Local Authority to monitor noise levels but you would have to have grounds to do so.  If a noise limit is regularly exceeded the LA could then place restrictions on the operator.  I doubt gagging riders would be acceptable but perhaps a limit could be placed on the rate of use or operating hours.
If there is no noise condition, you would probably have to prove a Nuisance which would require monitoring, a diary of infringements and somebody to be regularly affected.  Again, if a Nuisance is proved, restrictions could be placed on the operator.
I suppose in the final analysis of no remediation worked, the line could be closed after all other measures have been exhausted.
As to traffic volumes, tricky, its a public highway to the site after all.  If jams built up and there were frequent complaints to the LA then the LA could approach the operator to provide a shuttle bus or some such.   I do not the see the venture being too successful as means of closing it but it could be grounds for mitigating the effects on the local community.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 13:49:07, 07/11/18
Thanks ninthace. 


Sad day.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Lakeland Lorry on 13:59:10, 07/11/18
It's too late to do anything about the Honister Zip Wire, but you can still have a say about how National Parks are run in the future, by taking part in this survey:


http://www.walkingforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=37490.msg531778;topicseen#msg531778



Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: photonut on 17:36:58, 07/11/18
oh  :'(
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: gunwharfman on 18:45:25, 07/11/18
Capitalism gets its way yet again! I wondere what the countryside will look like in 20-50 years time?
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Strider on 18:45:43, 07/11/18
More here:  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-46128161

Quote
committee member Bill Jefferson said walkers would realise it was a mine, adding: "They wouldn't necessarily be looking for tranquillity in a mine."

No, but the people on the surrounding fells might be....

If their justification for allowing this is that the area is (relatively) heavily industrialized - which, let's be honest, it is: I can only think of one other place in the lakes that has a comparable level of industry - then hopefully it doesn't set a precedent for places like Thirlmere.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 19:17:11, 07/11/18
"committee member Bill Jefferson said walkers would realise it was a mine, adding: "They wouldn't necessarily be looking for tranquillity in a mine."

No, but the people on the surrounding fells might be....

Does Bill Jefferson go walking himself? How patronising, of course we all realise it is a mine. Where does he think we all go walking? ... in the mine? How can he be on a committee making such important decisions when he makes statements like that?

The via ferrata people are full of adrenaline when they reach the top and they do shout when they are on Black Star, you can hear them from Fleetwith Pike summit. The zip wire will be the same and the surrounding fells will be alive with the sound of shouting.

I can think of lots of fells where there are mine workings, some are still active, some are disused. Prime zip wire land. I will list them all, maybe at lunchtime tomorrow when I've got time.

I am so angry about this decision. So much so in fact that I have decided to boycott any businesses, large or small and any charities who have shown support for the Honister Zip Wire or show support now it has been approved. I will not be buying their products or paying for their services or donating money to them.
 >:(
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Ridge on 19:42:02, 07/11/18
Sad, sad day and, I fear, the thin end of the wedge.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: wombat on 22:56:54, 07/11/18
Cannot believe it !!!!,  have these people  ever been there, I was on Fleetwith Pike on monday, so peaceful and  quiet, gutted it is going to be ruined :'( :'(
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Glyno on 18:03:33, 08/11/18
a glimmer of hope perhaps?


https://www.tgomagazine.co.uk/news/doubts-surface-regarding-new-zip-wire-scheme-does-honister-planning-contravene-unesco-world-heritage/
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 18:20:18, 08/11/18
Hope so!


In my red mist yesterday I fired off an email expressing my dismay to the LDNPA - one of their general email addresses.  Surprisingly, as I wasn't very complimentary, I got a quite friendly response from David McGowan, head of planning at the LDNPA - pointing me to the report he and his team prepared.  I have exchanged a couple of emails with him this afternoon.  I wonder what he really thinks?  From what Douglas Chalmers was saying at the recent Friends meet at the Latrigg rally - many of the staff at LDNPA are dismayed about the direction Leafe is taking them.  It can't be great for a planning officer and the head of planning to have the committee ignore them.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: jontea on 19:49:58, 08/11/18
Yes it’s very sad and disappointing news that the zip wire has been approved at Honister. Pressure from these people has finally prevailed.


We can only hope these developments are contained within this small area of the Lakes and demand for such thrills is limited. Apart from terrible access through Borrowdale and Buttermere, I guess it’s in a better location than Thirlmere, but like many have said, with this go ahead, where will it all end?  :'(    
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 19:54:41, 08/11/18
a glimmer of hope perhaps?

I hope so too Glyn. I saw the Zip Off post on fb yesterday and it is good to see this has developed from it, thank you for posting it here  :)

In my red mist yesterday I fired off an email expressing my dismay to the LDNPA

My red mist is still too thick and isn't leaving me yet. I've not had much sleep the last few days, my mind has been on this since Sunday night. When I calm down and can think straight after some sleep I am going to start writing to people. Leafe has to be stopped along with the people on the committee who approved this. To undermine the planning team like this is abominable.

Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: ninthace on 23:02:31, 08/11/18
I hope the Zip Off folk have something in terms of improper process but I fear they may be disappointed.  It may not make any difference anyway; put it like this, had the zip wire been there already, would the Lakes not have been granted World Heritage Site status?
I sympathise with your anger concerning the committee overriding the Planning Officer's recommendation but as I said - it can happen.  If decisions always went with the recommendation, there would be no point in having a Planning Committee.  I accept right now you may think that would be a good idea but supposing the Officer had recommended approval and the Committee had rejected it, you might think differently.  I just wish Planning Committees came from the sharper end of the cutlery drawer and had a bit more bottle to stand up to the government and big business.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: photonut on 08:37:50, 09/11/18
a glimmer of hope perhaps?


https://www.tgomagazine.co.uk/news/doubts-surface-regarding-new-zip-wire-scheme-does-honister-planning-contravene-unesco-world-heritage/

I do like the last line:

“We shall talk to the other objectors about what action we might take. We do not consider this battle yet to be over.”

Good!!!!
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 08:53:03, 09/11/18
I sympathise with your anger concerning the committee overriding the Planning Officer's recommendation but as I said - it can happen.  If decisions always went with the recommendation, there would be no point in having a Planning Committee.  I accept right now you may think that would be a good idea but supposing the Officer had recommended approval and the Committee had rejected it, you might think differently. 

In terms of writing letters I am thinking of the bigger picture in the Lake District and the current CEO and his rather fanciful plans and ideas for the LD. It isn't just Honister, it is the cable car plan, driverless pods on footpaths etc. The man seems to be losing the plot a bit. There are a lot of people who are not happy with the way things are going and we need to at least try to do something about it before it is too late.

I hope the Zip Off folk have something in terms of improper process but I fear they may be disappointed. 

I hope and fear the same as you.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: photonut on 09:00:47, 09/11/18
... driverless pods on footpaths etc..

Oh you are joking!!  Where are these crazy ideas detailed April?
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: ninthace on 10:32:02, 09/11/18
Oh you are joking!!  Where are these crazy ideas detailed April?
I’m not April but here is a starter for 10
http://www.lakedistrict.gov.uk/aboutus/media-centre/latest-news/news-releases/lake-district-looks-to-the-future-with-driverless-vehicles (http://www.lakedistrict.gov.uk/aboutus/media-centre/latest-news/news-releases/lake-district-looks-to-the-future-with-driverless-vehicles)
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Oldtramp on 10:44:27, 09/11/18
I don't rate the driverless pod's chances too highly, except on one of those surfaced paths for the disabled.  Who'd probably better watch out for the bloody thing.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 13:39:59, 09/11/18
I’m not April but here is a starter for 10

Are you Jeremy Paxman?  :-\  ;)

If their justification for allowing this is that the area is (relatively) heavily industrialized - which, let's be honest, it is: I can only think of one other place in the lakes that has a comparable level of industry - then hopefully it doesn't set a precedent for places like Thirlmere.

As promised here is the list of mines that are still open*, places I thought were similar to Honister:

Burlington Stone, Elterwater - zip wire down the side of Lingmoor Fell anyone?
Broughton Moor Quarry near Coniston - zip wire from White Maiden anyone?
Kirkstone Stone (Pets Quarry) - zip wire from Red screes anyone?
*I'm not sure if Pets Quarry is fully open, it went into administration in 2012 and was bought by Burlington Stone

All owned by the same person. I'm not sure who owns the surrounding land in these areas so depending on who does, a zip wire plan might not even make the drawing board. But....

Interesting that Burlington Quarry in Elterwater are in support of the zip wire. How about a zip wire from Lingmoor Fell?

There are hundreds of disused mines all over the Lake District too, I have heard people talking about Tilberthwaite as the perfect place for a zip wire.

Still very angry  >:(
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Percy on 12:33:43, 10/11/18
I’ve paid to park up there once and have also bought food in the cafe. A good start would be for people against the zip wire to boycott Honister’s other facilities. Tomorrow’s service on Great Gable is probably a really busy day for them. Perhaps it needs to be less busy.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 08:54:29, 12/11/18
I’ve paid to park up there once and have also bought food in the cafe. A good start would be for people against the zip wire to boycott Honister’s other facilities.

We have too in the past. We haven't been in since they put the planning app in. We won't be going back in to the café again.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 19:01:38, 20/11/18
This was posted on zip off honisters fb page.

https://www.nwemail.co.uk/news/17234617.campaigners-launch-11th-hour-bid-to-halt-honister-zip-wire/?ref=fbshr&fbclid=IwAR2ZunjB7viWKMOHJYTZhtVZDH82yx8zKM704u-2Nb_U6zbLBV2Cocs4g0g
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 14:07:54, 30/11/18
Just spotted this, haven't had time to read it as yet.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/travel/columnists/a-zip-wire-for-the-lake-district-is-nothing-short-of-vandalism/ar-BBQhx9N?MSCC=1543586667&ocid=ientp
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: fernman on 14:16:00, 30/11/18
There is an article in The Guardian today, in which it is described as "nothing short of vandalism":
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/30/zip-wire-lake-district-honister-pass (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/30/zip-wire-lake-district-honister-pass)
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 14:25:02, 30/11/18
Same artcicles - I have only skim read but they seem to be saying what most on here have been saying all along.  Lets just hope this gets called in.  Fingers are crossed.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Ridge on 14:30:38, 01/12/18

email and website of the Secretary of State

[email protected]


www.jamesbrokenshire.com (http://www.jamesbrokenshire.com)
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 13:42:21, 03/12/18
Lets just hope this gets called in.  Fingers are crossed.

Mine too

email and website of the Secretary of State

[email protected]


www.jamesbrokenshire.com (http://www.jamesbrokenshire.com)

Thanks Ridge for the contact details  O0

Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: ninthace on 19:34:31, 05/12/18
Readers will remember that I mentioned  that once planning permission has been granted an applicant can apply to vary the conditions attached to that permission to their advantage without the need to involve the planning committee again.  I have just come across a planning application that illustrates this neatly.  A company applied to build a solar farm in 2015.  This application was refused by the planning committee but approved on appeal in 2017. One of the conditions attached to the approval was that the site should only produce electricity for 30 years and after then the site was to be returned to its original condition within 6 months.  Now the company has submitted an application to vary the condition to extend the period to 40 years.  This application does not have to go before the planning committee.
Please keep an eye on the Honister application and be prepared to scream blue murder if the applicant tries the same trick - say adding an extra line - you still have the right to object but you may not be told of such an application but it must be published on the authority website.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 12:23:36, 06/12/18
We are hoping it may not happen at all.

See the updates from Friends of the Lake District below
(from their website https://www.friendsofthelakedistrict.org.uk/Pages/FAQs/Category/current-planning-applications)

"Update 4th December 2018

We have been assured by the National Planning Casework Unit that the Lake District National Park Authority has agreed not to issue their decision notice on the Honister Zip Wire until the Secretary of State has confirmed whether or not he will call-in the application.

15th November 2018

Friends of the Lake District is concerned about the basis for the decision to approve an application for a Dual Purpose Aerial Wire at Honister Slate Mine, and has requested that the Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government “calls in” this application. This means we have asked that the Lake District National Park Authority (LDNPA) is prevented from granting permission and for the application to be determined instead by the Secretary of State.

We have done this because we believe the decision was contrary to legislation relating to National Parks and to national and local planning policy. The Sandford Principle requires that in National Parks, where there is a conflict between economic and landscape interests, the requirement to conserve and enhance the landscape must be given greater weight. In coming to their decision, the LDNPA gave significant weight to the economic benefits of the proposal, but limited value was placed on the non-visual aspects of landscape character.

The decision was contrary to both the Authority’s own officer recommendations and Natural England’s objection on landscape impact grounds. The application has also been determined before a legally required assessment of the proposal’s impact on sites of international biodiversity importance has been concluded.

We await the Secretary of State’s decision on whether or not the application will be called-in. If he agrees to call-in the case, he will also confirm that an inquiry will be held and the decision will be reviewed by a Planning Inspector. If he decides not to call it in, we will work with other interested organisations to consider whether any other action can be taken.

Cumbria Wildlife Trust, ZipOff, the Open Spaces Society and CPRE all support our view and have also asked for the decision to be called in"
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 12:41:16, 06/12/18
A glimmer of light there, April, thanks for posting.


Paul
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Ridge on 09:18:48, 16/12/18
I don't suppose this very sensible and well read American judge could be persuaded to move here.


https://twitter.com/i/moments/1074003491255914497?cn=ZmxleGlibGVfcmVjc18y&refsrc=email (https://twitter.com/i/moments/1074003491255914497?cn=ZmxleGlibGVfcmVjc18y&refsrc=email)

Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 13:27:58, 17/12/18
It might be an idea to send a copy to Richard Leafe  :)
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: happyhiker on 13:51:19, 17/12/18
Apart from any other issues, think what the extra traffic caused by zip riders and voyeurs will cause. It's not exactly the M6 up there!
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: richardh1905 on 13:53:12, 17/12/18
That is my primary concern, happyhiker.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: ninthace on 14:53:17, 17/12/18
Apart from any other issues, think what the extra traffic caused by zip riders and voyeurs will cause. It's not exactly the M6 up there!
Too late for that approach I'm afraid.  As part of the initial approval process Highways would have been asked to comment.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: dave_p on 15:06:09, 17/12/18
Readers will remember that I mentioned  that once planning permission has been granted an applicant can apply to vary the conditions attached to that permission to their advantage without the need to involve the planning committee again.  I have just come across a planning application that illustrates this neatly.  A company applied to build a solar farm in 2015.  This application was refused by the planning committee but approved on appeal in 2017. One of the conditions attached to the approval was that the site should only produce electricity for 30 years and after then the site was to be returned to its original condition within 6 months.  Now the company has submitted an application to vary the condition to extend the period to 40 years.  This application does not have to go before the planning committee.
Please keep an eye on the Honister application and be prepared to scream blue murder if the applicant tries the same trick - say adding an extra line - you still have the right to object but you may not be told of such an application but it must be published on the authority website.
Don't assume that planning committee councillors are any more likely to refuse applications than planning officers.  Planning Officers tend to determine applications based on straightforward facts and hard truths, backed up by national and local policies.  Councillors are far more influenced by local politics and lobbying.  That lobbying can come from both sides.  It might be that they are persuaded by an avalanche of objections but they can also be persuaded by business interests who want development.  In that respect, councillors are far more likely to ignore policy issues and that's why many of their decisions are subsequently overturned at appeal.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: ninthace on 15:20:18, 17/12/18
Don't assume that planning committee councillors are any more likely to refuse applications than planning officers.  Planning Officers tend to determine applications based on straightforward facts and hard truths, backed up by national and local policies.  Councillors are far more influenced by local politics and lobbying.  That lobbying can come from both sides.  It might be that they are persuaded by an avalanche of objections but they can also be persuaded by business interests who want development.  In that respect, councillors are far more likely to ignore policy issues and that's why many of their decisions are subsequently overturned at appeal.
All that is true but the application has to come before the Planning Committee.  Many, if not most planning applications are “Delegated” which means they are decided by the Planning Department without ever going before the Committee. The Committee only get to see potentially contentious applications. Thus once an application is approved, variations to that application are usually Delegated.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: dave_p on 15:34:34, 17/12/18
All that is true but the application has to come before the Planning Committee.  Many, if not most planning applications are “Delegated” which means they are decided by the Planning Department without ever going before the Committee. The Committee only get to see potentially contentious applications. Thus once an application is approved, variations to that application are usually Delegated.
It's not that simple.  Delegated agreements vary from Council to Council and include all sorts of different things, so it's not just contentious things.  From personal experience, I would expect a VOC application relating to an earlier permission which was contentious and was heard by committee to be sent back to committee to determine.  If a VOC came in with Honister, that's what I'd expect to happen.  To make sure that happened, it would be quite straitforward to ensure it did go back to committee.  One way would be to send in a load of objections.  Another would be to lobby Councillors directly and request that they make sure it goes to committee.  In most (all) delegated agreements, Councillors have the authority to request any application (including VOC) to go to committee.
But I'd say again, it's unwise to assume a committee is less likely to approve things.  I'm aware of situations where an officer intends to refuse an application.  A pile of objections arrive, triggering a committee hearing, and then the committee approve it!  No appeal possible there!
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: dave_p on 15:35:14, 17/12/18
ignore this.  I clicked the wrong button!
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: ninthace on 15:57:27, 17/12/18
It's not that simple.  Delegated agreements vary from Council to Council and include all sorts of different things, so it's not just contentious things.  From personal experience, I would expect a VOC application relating to an earlier permission which was contentious and was heard by committee to be sent back to committee to determine.  If a VOC came in with Honister, that's what I'd expect to happen.  To make sure that happened, it would be quite straitforward to ensure it did go back to committee.  One way would be to send in a load of objections.  Another would be to lobby Councillors directly and request that they make sure it goes to committee.  In most (all) delegated agreements, Councillors have the authority to request any application (including VOC) to go to committee.
But I'd say again, it's unwise to assume a committee is less likely to approve things.  I'm aware of situations where an officer intends to refuse an application.  A pile of objections arrive, triggering a committee hearing, and then the committee approve it!  No appeal possible there!
  You are of course right.  I was simplifying things and drawing from my experience of watching a neighbouring council in Cumbria in action.  In particular, I have seen on more than one occasion a delegated VOC which, had it been part of the original application, may well have resulted in a different outcome or at least different conditions attached to the approval.  As to lobbying, I once approached my District Councillor over a planning application to be told planning was "nothing to do with him" - an interesting reply given that he held the planning portfolio at the time.  It made me so angry I stood against him at the next election - I didn't win but I frightened him.  In my opinion, the outcome of Planning Committee can be something of a lottery but the system is very much skewed in favour of the developer.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: dave_p on 16:14:37, 17/12/18
  You are of course right.  I was simplifying things and drawing from my experience of watching a neighbouring council in Cumbria in action.  In particular, I have seen on more than one occasion a delegated VOC which, had it been part of the original application, may well have resulted in a different outcome or at least different conditions attached to the approval.  As to lobbying, I once approached my District Councillor over a planning application to be told planning was "nothing to do with him" - an interesting reply given that he held the planning portfolio at the time.  It made me so angry I stood against him at the next election - I didn't win but I frightened him.  In my opinion, the outcome of Planning Committee can be something of a lottery but the system is very much skewed in favour of the developer.
You are quite right to say the system is entirely skewed in favour of the developer.  Not least in the fact that refusals can be appealled but not approvals. 

To expand on what I said before, it's worth considering what the underlying motivation is for councillors v planning officers.
Planning officers are employed by the council, currently amid lots of cuts and general funding shortages. They will have seen their teams shrink dramatically and often seen colleagues lose jobs through rounds of redundancies.  So they will be acutely concerned about refusing applications which are then overturned on appeal.  That commonly leads to a costs award to the applicant.  So less money in the council to pay wages.  This means that officers won't want to refuse applications where there are no policy issues, because they know they'll probably lose the appeal.  Your solar farm example is typical of this.
Councillors are also paid by the council, but more importantly, they are voted in by local people.  So their primary focus is on keeping the locals happy in order to be re-elected.  Losing money in an appeal is less important to them as long as they are seen to be on the side of the locals.  So if locals want a zip line because they all want jobs there, the committee will typically approve an application, irrespective of a pile of objections from hikers who live elsewhere in the country.
Isn't Town Planning fascinating eh?
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Ridge on 15:32:33, 04/01/19

Just got a reply to my letter to the Secretary of State.

 Date: 03/01/2019


Dear Mr Ridge


Application by Honister Slate Mine for Dual purpose aerial wire for extraction of stone and tourism use at Honister Slate Mine: Application number 7/2018/2011


Thank you for your letter of  16/12/18 asking the Secretary of State to call in the above planning application.   The application is currently under consideration and your views, along with all other relevant information, will be taken into account before the Secretary of State decides whether or not to call-in the application for determination. I hope you will understand that I cannot comment on the matter further, as to do so might prejudice the Secretary of State’s position.  Please note that as you have made representations about a planning application which is before the Secretary of State, it may be necessary to make your letter available to a third party should that party make a request for information on representations made to the Secretary of State on the application. Any personal or identifying information will be removed before release.   I will let you know the outcome in due course.


Yours sincerely
Tara Dickenson
Planning casework Manager
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 19:05:10, 07/02/19
Zip Off have an interesting piece from World Heritage forum in their Facebook page.  Highly critical of LDNPA actions over honister and the gondola.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 19:44:45, 07/02/19
Thanks pdstsp, I will have a look  O0

The Nogogondola folk now have a website, see below

https://www.nogogondola.org/

Remember it is the LDNPA who are proposing this gondola/cable car from Thornthwaite to Whinlatter, it is unbelievable!

I'm sure the people running the campaign would appreciate your support  :)
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 20:02:07, 07/02/19
They're getting my support, and always have.  I think it's a good sign that these proposals are attracting global disgust.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Ridge on 20:20:54, 07/02/19
It is pretty damning  O0
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 20:22:22, 07/02/19
I've read the response from the World Heritage forum, they couldn't be any more critical of the LDNP. I think most people are totally gobsmacked when they hear about the gondola, they assume it is a joke!
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Ridge on 20:37:30, 07/02/19
It really doesn't mince its words does it.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 08:53:42, 08/02/19
Morning all - I seem to have lost the article - can anyone point me in the right direction as I wanted to re-read it this morning?


Paul
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Ridge on 22:43:49, 08/02/19
It does appear to not be about any more which is a bit of a worry if it was not true.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 09:35:58, 09/02/19
It is very odd. It seems the article has been removed from the facebook pages. I wonder why they haven't explained why?
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 10:19:53, 09/02/19
Possible hoax?  Strange...
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Ridge on 10:53:20, 09/02/19
That was my thought but they need to tell people.
Could someone who is actually a member of Facebook, I'm not, contact them and ask. I've looked on the website but can't find a way of contacting them.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 12:03:24, 09/02/19
I've just done that Ridge - NoGo have said they will republish it soon.  Suggests it's not a hoax.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 16:30:02, 09/02/19
Back up on NoGo Gondola's facebook page. Not sure how much clout this has, but says it well. They're not fans of Leafe😁

Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Ridge on 18:03:15, 09/02/19
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/52168144_1245878865568998_3183100941393985536_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_ht=scontent-lht6-1.xx&oh=71484fa945467515610412025e0dae12&oe=5CEDED80)
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Ridge on 18:04:09, 09/02/19
I didn't want to loose it again.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: ninthace on 20:03:10, 09/02/19
I didn't want to loose it again.
  Link for you

http://world-heritage-watch.de/content/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/WHW-Resolution-2018-Lake-District.pdf
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 10:25:43, 26/02/19
Morning all


I attended the NoGo Gondola meeting at Braithwaite last night.  It was quite an interesting evening, held to discuss the current timetable and the campaigns being planned.  I know many are following this, but thought it might be useful to summarise here.


The next draft of the LDNPA plan is to be released, on their website, on Friday (1 March), and this will be the executive's preferred plan.  It is anticipated that this will include the gondola.


On 6 March LDNPA are meeting with NoGo and, separately with the local councils.


On 11 March there is a meeting  of the Strategy and Vision (what vision!) committee which handles the plan, prior to it being put to the full 23 member executive on 20 March.  After that there is an 8 week consultation period after which the Sec of State will either approve or reject the plan.  Everyone who cares about this should be taking action asap - time is running out.


NoGo are planning to release proforma letters, to be edited by the sender (or not), and email addresses of the 23 members of the executive committee so that as many people as possible can register their displeasure.  I think anyone who hasn't already done so needs to register with NoGo through their website, in order to receive these communications.


There is also a planned demonstration on the 20th at Kendal - there are buses being laid on from Braithwaite.  Again - NoGo are asking people to register to attend.  The group also has some other, not as yet definite plans, to attempt to demonstrate the impact of the infrastructure on the locality and on the views from all surrounding fells.  They are also discussing the issue with other pressure groups around the Lakes.


One of the things which was also discussed was why the LDNPA are, effectively, acting as gamekeeper and poacher here - after all they are responsible for planning approval, and yet are putting forward their own plan.  There was a great deal of cynicism regarding Leafe et al, and their vested interests.  Apparently a study has shown that foreign visitors spend a deal more cash per head per week, than UK visitors.  However, foreign visitors generally do not venture north of Dunmail Raise, and this gondola is seen as an attempt to encourage them to do so, in order to turn Keswick into a new Windermere/Bowness.  There was discussion of the intention to build a skyline restaurant at Hospital Planation - half way up Grisedale Pike for god's sake!


The meeting was pretty well attended, and I was made to feel very welcome, I was even offered a hug for driving so far to attend!


There is more on the NoGoGondola.org site.


Paul
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Strider on 11:10:21, 26/02/19
Thanks for the update Paul, beggars belief that it's got this far.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 12:17:07, 26/02/19
Thanks for this pdstsp, you deserve more than a hug for driving so far for the meeting  O0

We must do everything we can to stop this utterly mad proposal   :(
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Ridge on 14:05:12, 26/02/19
Thanks for the report, and good for you for making it there.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 14:34:07, 26/02/19
Thanks for this pdstsp, you deserve more than a hug for driving so far for the meeting  O0

We must do everything we can to stop this utterly mad proposal   :(


Not sure they were offering more than a hug - it didn't seem that kind of meeting  :-* ;D


Completely agree that we need to act.  One of the other points raised, by one of the Keswick councillors, was that the costs for each stage of the development would be in the region of €10million - at this level of outlay, it seems entirely possible that the venture would fail, leaving a rusting pile of metal across the fells.


Thanks Strider - I don't think you could make it up - it's unbelievable, but the LDNPA seem pretty hell bent on it at the moment.  It's being sold on the basis being a sustainable transport solution to the congestion in Braithwaite, particularly the narrows lust after the Royal Oak, but, as many said, the congestion in Keswick is far far worse than Braithwaite.  Personally I have been held up for a couple of minutes, but not more, in Braithwaite, but I have spend many half hours inching through Keswick after a day in Borrowdale.


Cheers Ridge - I did have a bit of an ulterior motive - I am doing an evening course in photography, and wanted some sunset shots and star shots, as this weeks homework was slow shutter speeds.  It was a lovely evening to watch the sun go down over Cat Bells and Derwent Water, attend the meeting, and then take some star shots from the road to Whinlatter.  Unfortunately the star shots are, without exception, cr@p.



Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 18:36:54, 26/02/19
Not sure they were offering more than a hug - it didn't seem that kind of meeting  :-* ;D

Ya bogger  ;D

I am doing an evening course in photography, and wanted some sunset shots and star shots, as this weeks homework was slow shutter speeds.  It was a lovely evening to watch the sun go down over Cat Bells and Derwent Water, attend the meeting, and then take some star shots from the road to Whinlatter.  Unfortunately the star shots are, without exception, cr@p.

 :) We want pics  :)
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Ridge on 20:55:21, 26/02/19
Should you wish to support the NoGo Gondala campaign then you can join here in about 4 seconds for a total of no money.


https://www.nogogondola.org/join-nogogondola (https://www.nogogondola.org/join-nogogondola)
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 08:49:30, 27/02/19
Thanks for posting the link Ridge  :)

Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 13:25:32, 27/02/19


 :) We want pics  :)


The world is not ready yet.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 13:29:52, 27/02/19
 ;D
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 08:16:51, 02/03/19
Press release is on the LDNPA site.  It says specific reference to a gondola has been removed, following consultation, which is good.  Then it says a future developer would need to consider one ,whichv is bad. Haven't read the whole doc as I am away, but first impression is this is a small improvement, but not what we all wanted.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: richardh1905 on 07:39:22, 03/03/19
Press release is on the LDNPA site.


"As the planning authority we would expect a developer to consider all community impacts and access options whether by gondola, low-emission vehicles, or other means before submitting a detailed planning application."

Park and ride with electric busses would be a lot better environmentally, visually, practically and financially than a high impact vanity project like gondolas.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 08:52:09, 04/03/19
Press release is on the LDNPA site.  It says specific reference to a gondola has been removed, following consultation, which is good.  Then it says a future developer would need to consider one ,whichv is bad. Haven't read the whole doc as I am away, but first impression is this is a small improvement, but not what we all wanted.

NoGo and Lakes Watch have posted about it on their fb pages too. NoGo have a meeting with LDNP on the 6th March they say, so I am sure they will update us. The wording on the LDNP seems to be a bit ambiguous?  :-\

Park and ride with electric busses would be a lot better environmentally, visually, practically and financially than a high impact vanity project like gondolas.

Spot on Richard.

If the gondola was all about reducing traffic through Braithwaite I am a monkeys uncle. The plans were for more gondolas half way up Grisedale Pike and higher up in Whinlatter forest. You don't see many traffic jams up there.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: richardh1905 on 09:39:21, 04/03/19
I don't think that the so called park authority will rest until they have turned the Lake District into Alton Towers.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 10:05:39, 04/03/19
Spot on, April and Richard.  One thing that was noticeable was the statistic on proportion of respondents who approved of the LDNPA approach to the special areas.  From memory it was less than 50%, which is pretty damning, compared to their stats elsewhere in the plan.  Hence the let's pass this on to a private developer and let them take the stick.  I don't think this is over, just delayed the battle.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Ridge on 14:51:17, 24/07/19
I've just received an email saying that this decision is not going to be called in by the Secretary of State.


I don't know what other avenues are open to fight this.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 15:28:38, 24/07/19
Disappointing, but I don't think it's terribly surprising.  I have no idea what further action can be taken. Sad.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 19:32:59, 24/07/19
Thanks Ridge. Very disappointing news  :(

I dread to think if the Kinlochleven zip wire application is successful what will continue to happen to our countryside, these zip wires, gondolas, so called "adventure hubs" will be popping up all over.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: ninthace on 21:57:03, 24/07/19
https://www.cumbriacrack.com/2019/07/24/honister-aerial-flight-approved-by-the-secretary-of-state/ (https://www.cumbriacrack.com/2019/07/24/honister-aerial-flight-approved-by-the-secretary-of-state/)
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Ridge on 22:00:50, 24/07/19
'Adventure Capital Lake District'  oh dear God, how can you even begin to talk to these people.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 22:25:37, 24/07/19
Thanks for the link ninthace.

Hmmm. I previously admired and respected the MP for Copeland despite the party she represents. 'World class experiences in Cumbria' my [censored] [censored].

'Adventure Capital Lake District'  oh dear God

Remove the first two words and you get Lake District. It doesn't need to the words Adventure Capital in front of it. For [censored] sake.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: richardh1905 on 20:47:03, 25/07/19

Isn't the Right Honourable (sic) James Brokenshire MP one of those who has been sacked by Boris Johnson?


Perhaps he knew that he was going to get the boot and didn't give a damn.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: richardh1905 on 20:50:23, 25/07/19

In this instance I think that the increase in traffic up Honister Pass is more of an environmental issue than the zip wire itself.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Dyffryn Ardudwy on 18:23:17, 28/07/19
We have discussed a similar topic before.
The presence of a Zip wire, attracts huge numbers of people into an area, that  may not have bothered to visit in the past.
With these people, comes significant revenue, both for the Zip wire operators and local community.

The Zip Wire projects in Snowdonia, have become such a huge success, generating over £250 million in just five years, for the economy of the area, that those living in South Wales can see the financial benefits both for tourism, and the local economy.


Its seen as so advantageous to the economy of a particular area of Wales, that the Welsh Assembly Government have given their blessing and support to the proposed project to be based at Tower Colliery above Rhigos, in the Upper Rhondda valley.

Slightly different, but of a similar nature, Surf Snowdonia, the largest manmade wave facility in the world,(according to its owners that is)  is so  popular, that Conwy Council have given permission for a new hotel to be constructed near Dollgarog.

All this is great news for tourism in Northern Snowdonia, and with the continual decline in the value of the pound, more are deciding to holiday at home, due to the increased cost of holidaying abroad.

We are not all converts of the great outdoors, and walking up a mountain, to many, is seen as a waste of time.

Why should other areas prosper and benefit from ever so popular tourist ideas.


The Lake District needs tourism to survive, it has done in the past, and will continue to need it in the future, its stunningly beautiful, but to some, that is no incentive to visit it.


If your not a walker, or someone slightly interested in scenery, what else is there to do there, other than drive around, admire the views and move on to the next vista.


A Zip wire to some is a blight on the landscape, something so unthinkable, they will do everything in their power to stop it happening, but the small area of Snowdonia that enjoys Zip world and its other attractions, has benefitted to the tune of over £250m in the past five years of trading.


Many thousands of visitors new to the beauty of Snowdonia, have arrived, stayed overnight in local B&Bs and hotels, spent money in the locality, and possibly returned to experience other attractions.


Why cant Cumbria share its beauty, with people who only want to visit for the sole purpose of going down a wire at speed.

Its a wire for goodness sake, not a nuclear power station, that still blights the landscape above Trawsfynydd.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Ridge on 18:28:31, 28/07/19
Ridge thinks for a bit.
He sighs.
He decides it is not worth the effort.
He pours himself a drink.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 20:11:49, 28/07/19
DA, can I suggest you read the Sandford principals underlying the creation of the National Park? You may find it enlightening. 



Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: richardh1905 on 20:51:54, 28/07/19
DA - there is a world of difference between putting up a zip wire within the desolation of a GIANT slate quarry, or constructing an artificial surf facility on the site of a derelict aluminium works (both in easily accessible locations), and putting up a zip wire in an iconic beauty spot with terrible road access (Honister).

I have to ask you - have you actually been to Honister Pass?
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: richardh1905 on 21:02:51, 28/07/19
Also - both Penrhyn slate quarry and Dolgarrog aluminium works are outwith Snowdonia National Park!

You might as well compare chalk and cheese as compare these developments with Honister.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Dyffryn Ardudwy on 12:10:37, 29/07/19
What i think most people are simply against, is that the Zip wire is to be constructed within a National Park.
Its an area of outstanding beauty, but that should not be the sole reason for not allowing a zip wire to be built.
I agree the Honister Pass is not the best location to construct such a popular attraction, due to its very poor access for large influx of traffic and visitors.

A zip wire attracts vast numbers of people, all of whom will happily spend considerable amounts of their money in the area, if the venture is carefully managed.


Local B&Bs, Hotels, Youth Hostels, and businesses will benefit from such a project, simply because many of the new visitors will decide to stay an extra night or two, to see what else is on offer.

Businesses in North West Wales have  profited to the tune of over £250 million in the past five years alone, and such is the popularity of Zip Wires, even South Wales wants a piece of the action.

Like Ive already said, if a new Nuclear power station was proposed for the Honister area, or any area within the Lake District National Park, then i could see the anguish and worry of the locals, but all is proposed is a wire from one end of the pass to the other.

There is this assumption that the Lake District is exclusively an area for those who want to walk it hills, and valleys, and anything other than that, will not or should not be considered.

Areas of outstanding natural beauty need other attractions to persuade people to visit the area.

Walking i agree is very popular, but what else is there to do in the Lakes other than walk the fells.


The younger generation or those with no interest at all in the great outdoors, need other reasons to travel to the NW of England.


Zip wires, like them or loathe them, its virtually transformed the economy of a small area of NW Wales, that still suffered high unemployment and poor job opportunities.


Any venture that brings large numbers of people into an area, all willing to spend their money locally, must be good.


If the proposed Zip wire venture is carefully managed, it will ensure the continued prosperity of local businesses and other attractions.


Just imagine what £250m can do for local Cumbrian businesses, and that's only in a five year period.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pdstsp on 13:23:31, 29/07/19
DA, can I suggest you read the Sandford principals underlying the creation of the National Park? You may find it enlightening.


I take it you ignored this advice then?  And everything said by Richard?


The lake district is not short of visitor numbers, it is short of the infrastructure to deal with them at times. 


I also do not understand how you have come up with the figure of £250M over 5 years from Honister - at £100 a shot this equates to 500,000 visitors per annum, which, I suspect, might put a strain on the car park.  I think you need to stop coming up with random [censored] and spouting it as the truth.


The zip wire planned does not run from one end of Honister Pass to another, it will descend the side of Fleetwith Pike.


I love the line "Areas of outstanding natural beauty need other attractions to persuade people to visit the area" - surely marketing the outstanding beauty element better would persuade people that they do not need other, passive, fairground rides, to enjoy the fells.  Your economics based argument also ignores our responsibility as a generation, to protect the few remaining wild spaces. 


DA - I assume you are trolling, because I really cannot see how you can actually believe what you write.


You also ask what else there is to do in the lakes but walk?  Well, just off the top of my head, sailing, canoeing, canyoning, climbing, cycling (road and mtb), fell running, wild camping, orienteering, all of which have an element of adventure, completely divorced from the safe, passive experience of a zip wire. They also all bring health benefits.


And..... breathe

Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: richardh1905 on 14:12:36, 29/07/19

I ask you again, DA - have you been up Honister Pass?


It's not the A5, you know.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: fernman on 14:29:57, 29/07/19
Also - both Penrhyn slate quarry and Dolgarrog aluminium works are outwith Snowdonia National Park!

You might as well compare chalk and cheese as compare these developments with Honister.

I thought I'd pointed this out to DA last night, but somehow my post didn't appear.
My assumption is that these developments are outside the national park for a reason - that reason being that the SNPA would strongly reject any application for some such thing within the park's boundaries.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: Ridge on 17:58:37, 29/07/19
I was doing so well at not posting and then he says
Quote
The younger generation... need other reasons to travel to the NW of England
Not my son, his friends or a fair number of people that we met up there a week ago.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 18:24:16, 29/07/19
Areas of outstanding natural beauty need other attractions to persuade people to visit the area.

Walking i agree is very popular, but what else is there to do in the Lakes other than walk the fells.

 ;D  This has to be up there with your most funny posts, you have to be joking DA.

Along with pdstsp's good suggestions of things to do, here are some other things to do that don't require too much energy, all available in the Lake District - theatres, cinemas, restaurants, shops, museums, lake cruises (there are quite a few lakes DA, you obviously have no knowledge of the Lake District, perhaps you should look at a map), tea shops, public parks. I could go on and on, the list is endless.

As far the Lake District needing more numbers you again have no idea of the traffic jams in Keswick on Saturday, it was gridlocked.... and there is no zip wire yet. There will be more traffic coming through Keswick to get to Borrowdale and more coming through Buttermere. The people and businesses in Buttermere were against the zip wire DA; not all businesses are in favour of it.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: richardh1905 on 19:15:11, 29/07/19

I'll add La'al Ratty to your list, April


DA really should get about more.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: pleb on 19:41:20, 29/07/19
Dont forget the pencil museum!Why do we need to encourage more visitors? Is it not rammed already? Fairly famous place, the lake district......... :-\
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 19:46:23, 29/07/19
I'll add La'al Ratty to your list, April

Oh, of course other transport that people use for entertainment:) Include all the buses, lots of people use the buses too just to see the scenery without having to put much effort into it. 

How could I forget all the historic houses - the Wordsworth properties and Beatrix Potter properties, lots of foreign tourists travel half way across the world to see them. There is more than enough for visitors to do without walking on a fell, I am sure other people can add more to the list.

Oh thanks pleb, I had mentioned museums, but didn't name the pencil museum specifically. And yes the Lake District has more than enough visitors each year.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: richardh1905 on 20:46:45, 29/07/19
You missed Gondolas off your list  >:D
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: richardh1905 on 20:47:55, 29/07/19
..and of course, a certain slate mine is itself already a tourist attraction.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 20:53:58, 29/07/19
You missed Gondolas off your list  >:D

Oh yes, the Coniston Steam Yacht Gondola  :D

I am hoping the gondolas you really mean remain as a bleddy stupid idea on a drawing board.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: ninthace on 21:41:35, 29/07/19
Oh yes, the Coniston Steam Yacht Gondola  :D

I am hoping the gondolas you really mean remain as a bleddy stupid idea on a drawing board.
My daughter chartered the steam gondola as part of her wedding with Bucks Fizzes all round.  They let her toot the whistle - bad idea - by the time she had finished there was no steam pressure left.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: richardh1905 on 21:44:04, 29/07/19
Oh yes, the Coniston Steam Yacht Gondola  :D

I am hoping the gondolas you really mean remain as a bleddy stupid idea on a drawing board.



Hopefully gondolas of the bleddy stupid variety will never be on the list.
Title: Re: Honister Zip Wire proposal
Post by: April on 20:58:40, 30/07/19
They let her toot the whistle - bad idea - by the time she had finished there was no steam pressure left.

 ;D

Hopefully gondolas of the bleddy stupid variety will never be on the list.

I hope so  :)