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Main Boards => Gear => Topic started by: Z3man on 09:49:32, 20/10/20

Title: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: Z3man on 09:49:32, 20/10/20
Hi All,

I am thinking of buying a Mountain Equipment Lhotse, Rupla or Shivling jacket or something similar.

The Lhotse is Gortex pro with reinforcements on the shoulders and back of the arms.

The Rupal is just normal Gortex.

The Shivling is a Gortex pro but a lighter version than the Lhotse.

I was just wondering if you carry a rucksack all the time, does this damage the Gortex in any way, does it start wetting out.

I currently use a Paramo Alta III, that wets out where the straps have been but its not a problem as the pump liner does its job and the water doesn't get through.

I am thinking of going hard shell just for something cooler, lighter, and better looking, though i will have to take a chance that it doesn't condensate up to much as i do sweat a lot when climbing steep hills.

Any of advice on whether any of these Gortex hard shell jackets are genuinely breathable would be helpful as well.

I can currently get the Lhotse jacket brand new for £200 which seems a bit of a bargain.



Many thanks .
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: Z3man on 09:52:31, 20/10/20
Post deleted, somehow managed to reply to my own message.

Can a mod please delete this post.
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: pdstsp on 10:46:52, 20/10/20
£200 for a Lhotse is certainly a bargain.  Personally I would go for it - I paid a lot more than this five years ago for mine.


I wear one of these and my experience is extremely good - it is now coming up to 5 years old and is still waterproof.  No issues with rucksack wear - which I have had on a lightweight Rab jacket.  But, I am also a very sweaty walker and I do find that I can get very wet inside the jacket if I climb in the rain,  I stay warm but wet, which is a joy for anybody sharing a car home with me.  However, my personal experience is that I end up like this in every jacket, so the Lhotse still comes out as my favourite.  I imagine Richard1905 will be along to extol the virtues too. 
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: richardh1905 on 10:56:52, 20/10/20
I have a Lhotse and it has served me well through 5 winters of hard use, but is beginning to wet out around the neck, and the main zip was starting to be troublesome, so I have replaced it with a Mountain Equipment Tupilak, which I believe should be even tougher. No wetting out around the shoulder straps, though, and I would wholeheartedly recommend the Lhotse, the best jacket that I have ever owned. Gore Tex Pro really works well for me, and I run hot with a vengeance!


£200 is a steal - go for it.
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: richardh1905 on 10:58:04, 20/10/20
I imagine Richard1905 will be along to extol the virtues too.


Of course  ;D . The Lhotse is a superb jacket.
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: WhitstableDave on 11:47:31, 20/10/20
I'll put in a good word for the...

Rohan Vertex Jacket (https://www.rohan.co.uk/mens-travel-and-outdoor-waterproofs-vertex-jacket-ss19)  O0

I've had mine for a couple of years and I still love it.

For me, the main selling point is that it's the most breathable shell I've had by far. It's not Gore-Tex, but Rohan's own system called Barricade. It's very light at 515g and doesn't take up a lot of space in the backpack. Rohan advertise the Vertex at £295, but they will usually give a 15% discount for Ramblers, LDWA, etc.
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: Birdman on 12:02:37, 20/10/20
Seems like a good deal!


Regarding your question about durability I cannot comment, since I have never spent more than £70 on a jacket and only buy lighter/ more packable jackets that are of course not as durable. I found that they soon start leaking on the shoulders when carrying a heavy backpack. I usually don't care because the main source of wetness is usually condensation and as long as the jacket keeps most of the water out, the main thing for me is that it keeps the wind out when wet.
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: Z3man on 12:07:41, 20/10/20
Thanks Guys.

Even though the Lhotse is a bargain price it is still quite a lot of money, i need to make sure it is definitely what i want, i may go and try in on again tonight. I don't want to spend £200 and then end up wishing i had stuck with my Paramo, so need to make sure.

The Lhotse certainly sounds like a fantastic jacket, seems to get lots of praise everywhere.

Do you guys need to wash and reproof yours Lhotse jackets very often.

Unfortunately there aren't any Rohan stores near me so i cant go and try one out. Wish i had asked this question earlier as i have just come back from a weeks holiday in Keswick and there is a Rohan shop there.
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: BuzyG on 12:35:45, 20/10/20
Another user of ME Gortex pro Jackets here.  I have only had mine two winters, but it gets lots of wear and works really well.  O0
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: richardh1905 on 12:36:53, 20/10/20
Do you guys need to wash and reproof yours Lhotse jackets very often.


Not very often, no. In fact, possibly only once!
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: kinkyboots on 12:37:19, 20/10/20
It's not the Gore-Tex (which is hidden from view because it's sandwiched between the inner liner and outer fabric) which gets damaged by the rucksack straps it's the DWR finish applied to the surface of the outer fabric during manufacturing process which gets rubbed and degrades to the point where the water no longer beads off.

When the water stops beading off the DWR finish needs refreshing by using Nikwax Tech Wash and the appropriate version of TX Direct etc. to keep the water beading off the surface fabric.

Obviously the outer fabric can't stand constant rubbing and will eventually wear with use as nothing lasts forever.

A link to the £200 Lhotse would be helpful.  ;)
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: gunwharfman on 13:22:11, 20/10/20
Of course, you could choose look at your subject differently and maybe come to the conclusion that spending so much on a waterproof is not really necessary. I would prefer to argue that during the course of a two-week hike, for example, how often does it really rain? Unless you are really unlucky I would suggest that in reality we tend to hike a lot more in dry periods than we hike in wet ones.

I bought a Paramo Alta 2 a few years ago because at the time I truly believed that rain was going to be my number one difficulty but these days I think very differently. My own view is that wind is my number one problem, so for me my go-to choice of clothing and my most important item of clothing is my windproof jacket. My 'waterproof' choice is a cheapo coat, and a cheap poncho back up, to only be used if I ever need a double waterproof layer to help me to stay dry.

My last memory of rain was on one day only when hiking the Two Moors Way in 2019, the rest of the nine days it didn't rain.
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: BuzyG on 13:42:46, 20/10/20
GunWharfMan, you should come back and visit Dartmoor more often.  I'd say the majority of winter walks I need my Rain proof shell.  I have two cheapo Trago waterproofs that I wear a lot too. But mainly in the summer months, when the rain is warmer.

Weather wise, it's often sunny on the coast of Cornwall, whilst hammering down a few miles away on the spine of the moors. Those damp South Westerlies just love to empty their watery payload from the Atlantic there, after they leave the coast.

Trust me on this.  ;)
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: richardh1905 on 14:25:56, 20/10/20
GunWharfMan, you should come back and visit Dartmoor more often.  I'd say the majority of winter walks I need my Rain proof shell.  I have two cheapo Trago waterproofs that I wear a lot too. But mainly in the summer months, when the rain is warmer.

Weather wise, it's often sunny on the coast of Cornwall, whilst hammering down a few miles away on the spine of the moors. Those damp South Westerlies just love to empty their watery payload from the Atlantic there, after they leave the coast.

Trust me on this.  ;)


Nothing like a decent set of waterproofs when you are up a hilltop somewhere walking into the teeth of gale driven rain. That is the time when I am really glad that I didn't skimp on them.


And it is the same here in the South Lakes, mild and sunny on my dog walk near the coast this morning, but I couldn't even see Coniston Old Man for the dark clouds shrouding the fells.
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 15:09:20, 20/10/20
The Lake District, Snowdonia and Western Scotland are not well known for successive dry and sunny days. I have been very thankful of my waterproofs on a number of occasions and they can be a lifesaver.
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: gunwharfman on 16:31:17, 20/10/20
As I wrote earlier, I truly used to believe that my expensive coat was necessary, but I am now happy with the decision I've made. It was also part of my drive to keep my rucksack weight low and for those things that I may need quickly to be easily to hand. I now secure my waterproof coat on the top of my rucksack, its rolled up and held there with an elastic strap. I slide my rainskirt in behind my rucksack backpad, if it starts to rain that usually goes on first, it only takes a few seconds. I then lower my bag to the floor and my rain coat is there directly in front of me. I used to keep my waterproof coat inside my bag but it was always such a faff having to take it off and undoing two straps and a cord to get at it.
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: Z3man on 16:41:37, 20/10/20
Of course, you could choose look at your subject differently and maybe come to the conclusion that spending so much on a waterproof is not really necessary. I would prefer to argue that during the course of a two-week hike, for example, how often does it really rain? Unless you are really unlucky I would suggest that in reality we tend to hike a lot more in dry periods than we hike in wet ones.

I bought a Paramo Alta 2 a few years ago because at the time I truly believed that rain was going to be my number one difficulty but these days I think very differently. My own view is that wind is my number one problem, so for me my go-to choice of clothing and my most important item of clothing is my windproof jacket. My 'waterproof' choice is a cheapo coat, and a cheap poncho back up, to only be used if I ever need a double waterproof layer to help me to stay dry.

My last memory of rain was on one day only when hiking the Two Moors Way in 2019, the rest of the nine days it didn't rain.


Understand what you are saying, i use my windproof quite a lot.

I live in the North East and we can sometimes get some pretty harsh winters up here. I have been working from home since March and it looks like i will be until at least next March, so i want to get out walking as much as possible this winter, otherwise i am going to be stuck indoors a heck of a lot. So i want to make sure i have all the right gear in case we get a harsh winter.

Sorry i cant post a link where i can get the Lhotse for £200.

It is from Go Outdoors on their For Sale rack, i was very surprised to see it that cheap, their reductions aren't usually that big. It is the only one they have going cheap and it is my size as well, a small.

All the other sizes, medium and above are still on the normal rack at about £350.00.

Whats strange though, is that Go Outdoors don't even list the Lhotse on their website.
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: kinkyboots on 16:46:30, 20/10/20
Sorry i cant post a link where i can get the Lhotse for £200.

It is from Go Outdoors on their For Sale rack, i was very surprised to see it that cheap, their reductions aren't usually that big. It is the only one they have going cheap and it is my size as well, a small.

All the other sizes, medium and above are still on the normal rack at about £350.00.

Whats strange though, is that Go Outdoors don't even list the Lhotse on their website.

Thanks for explaining. A lucky find.
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: Z3man on 16:50:03, 20/10/20
It is, in fact i am going to give my evening walk a miss tonight and go and buy the Lhotse before someone else does. It may have gone already, it was Saturday when i saw it.

If i decide not to keep it i can always take it back, so hopefully i will be a Lhotse owner by about 7pm tonight.
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: windyrigg on 17:09:19, 20/10/20
I agree it's the DWR that has a shorter life at wear/contact points. Gore is good stuff, usually quite durable, I've still got a jacket in use (probably now just showerproof) from the 1980's. I've had a number of jackets over the years, and now my 'winter wet'  jacket is Paramo. I think the ME Lhotse is pretty high end, it should be fine  :)
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: richardh1905 on 17:15:28, 20/10/20
It is, in fact i am going to give my evening walk a miss tonight and go and buy the Lhotse before someone else does. It may have gone already, it was Saturday when i saw it.

If i decide not to keep it i can always take it back, so hopefully i will be a Lhotse owner by about 7pm tonight.


Best price for a Small Lhotse that I have seen elsewhere is £249.99 from Gaynors in Ambleside.
https://www.gaynors.co.uk/mens-c4/waterproof-jackets-c25/mens-lhotse-jacket-p7854
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: Z3man on 17:22:19, 20/10/20

Best price for a Small Lhotse that I have seen elsewhere is £249.99 from Gaynors in Ambleside.
https://www.gaynors.co.uk/mens-c4/waterproof-jackets-c25/mens-lhotse-jacket-p7854 (https://www.gaynors.co.uk/mens-c4/waterproof-jackets-c25/mens-lhotse-jacket-p7854)


The one's in Gaynors are last years model, as probably is the one i am about to buy from Go outdoors.

There was was a new version for 2020 made with a more breathable version of Gortex Pro, and a few minor modification as well.
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: veracocha on 19:12:54, 20/10/20
I was in Gaynors a few weeks ago looking for the Lhotse they had advertised at £249.00 but they said that was an on-line deal only for last years model. I purchased the new one in Acid for £360.00 there and then. I was so annoyed the very day before ascending Dove Crag in another brand new Gore-tex jacket and getting soaked completely through with sweat I thought sod it and bought it anyway. My next day up Place Fell in the Lhotse was a pleasure and I think it had a lot to do with having pit-zips and the other options. Too soon to see if the backpack had any ill-effect but so far so good.
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: Z3man on 19:22:42, 20/10/20
I decide not to get the Lhotse jacket from Go Outdoors, there was something not quite right about it.

It looked a bit second hand, when i compared it to the other Lhotse jackets in store it looked a bit faded and washed out, it also had three marks on it that didn't come off when rubbing them with a wet finger.

I was definitely an older model than the other ones in store, i think it could have actually been two versions old as i think the other versions in store were last years model anyway. The shop assistant said it came from their Stoke store that had to shift stock about due to storm damage. The link to Gaynors above is last years model, but the one i went to see tonight was definitely an older version than that.

Hope this makes sense.
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: NeilC on 13:50:26, 22/10/20
I terms of wetting out under straps - I wouldn't worry about it with Goretex or other membrane jackets.
Goretex is still waterproof even with the face fabric wetted out. It's just not very breathable in those areas. But then nothing is breathable under a strap like that anyway.


It matters more with Paramo because Paramo isn't inherently waterproof. Paramo relies heavily on beading on the surface to prevent the liner becoming overwhelmed. You can easily push water through a Paramo as anyone with Paramo trousers, who has sat on a wet seat, can attest to.
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: Z3man on 19:15:46, 22/10/20
Thank for the info Neil, all sounds very logical so i won't worry too much about the straps any more.

I was looking at buying some Paramo trousers a few weeks ago, but when i tried them on i didn't like them. Glad i didn't like them and buy them after what you have just said.
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: gunwharfman on 19:49:08, 22/10/20
I received an Alpkit magazine through the post today and one whole page is devoted to 'How to reproof your waterproof.' It suggests that high-wear areas are not a problem but they are a problem if you try for a quick fix.

The article basically says, 1) run your washing machine empty to rinse out any old detergent, 2) then wash your jacket in the machine using Tech Wash, 3) then wash it again using a reproofing liquid, 4) let your jacket dry naturally and then in a few days you and jacket will be "so happy together" and your friends will be 'amazed!'

If my wife found out that I used 'her' washing machine for 3 cycles for one coat I'd soon be flat on my back!  :o

I have no idea if this is good advice or not but its from Alpkit so it must be true I suppose?
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 20:06:13, 22/10/20
That seems pretty standard advice for reproofing GWM. I did it a few times successfully on my ancient Berghaus waterproof. Eventually it started to delaminates and some seams were failing, so reproofing wasn’t an option. Not too bad for 15 years of use, both for hiking in hills and as an everyday coat with huge pockets.
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: Z3man on 20:09:11, 22/10/20
I received an Alpkit magazine through the post today and one whole page is devoted to 'How to reproof your waterproof.' It suggests that high-wear areas are not a problem but they are a problem if you try for a quick fix.

The article basically says, 1) run your washing machine empty to rinse out any old detergent, 2) then wash your jacket in the machine using Tech Wash, 3) then wash it again using a reproofing liquid, 4) let your jacket dry naturally and then in a few days you and jacket will be "so happy together" and your friends will be 'amazed!'

If my wife found out that I used 'her' washing machine for 3 cycles for one coat I'd soon be flat on my back!  :o

I have no idea if this is good advice or not but its from Alpkit so it must be true I suppose?
Seems to be good advice, similar to what i heave read on other sites.

It is just the same as how i wash and proof my Paramo now.

I didn't realise you could treated Gortex the same way until i started reading up on it, i always thought you couldn't wash and reproof Gotrex.
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 20:16:56, 22/10/20

I didn't realise you could treated Gortex the same way until i started reading up on it, i always thought you couldn't wash and reproof Gotrex.
It is not the Goretex being reproofed, but the outer layer of the coat to restore it water repellency.
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: richardh1905 on 08:26:14, 23/10/20
If my wife found out that I used 'her' washing machine for 3 cycles for one coat I'd soon be flat on my back!  :o


I hand washed my old Lhotse a few months ago in the Tech Wash stuff - worked just fine. In fact I was out in the rain with the dog last night and noticed the drops beading nicely on the arms.
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: Birdman on 11:43:31, 23/10/20
I'm totally unimpressed with re-proofing using expensive Nikwax and stuff. It looks great just after the re-proof but it wears off within hours. I still do it every now and then but I'm disappointed every time.
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: NeilC on 15:51:57, 27/10/20
I'm totally unimpressed with re-proofing using expensive Nikwax and stuff. It looks great just after the re-proof but it wears off within hours. I still do it every now and then but I'm disappointed every time.


I agree. Seems to work mostly OK on my Paramo stuff but not so great on my membrane-based waterproofs. Looks impressive doing the tap test but out on the hills, in fine blown rain, it wets out after a couple of hours.


I've said it before but I'll say it again - by far the best proofer I'm aware of is 303 Fabric Guard. That stuff is pretty much the same as the original PFC coatings you got on Goretex jackets in the past. However the reason they got rid of PFCs is because they're toxic to the environment and maybe even a little to the user. I think 303 is PFCs. I must admit to still using it.


If you do use it, you want to make sure your jacket is properly clean first - as in any Nikwax or other proofers removed. So you want to wash it in normal detergent, then Tech Wash (or liquid soap flakes) to remove the detergent and then a couple of rinses and then get it bone dry. Then you spray it with the 303.

My decade old Helly Hansen shell now beads like the day it was bought, possibly better in fact, and it doesn't just give up in fine mist, or where the arms rub etc, which I find Nikwax does. It's got that slippery feel to it that old DWC coatings used to have.
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: forgotmyoldpassword on 16:33:25, 27/10/20
The Grangers Performance Repel stuff is pretty good - simple to use and cheap considering you'll get a fair few 'reproofs' out of it.


Wash the item, hang it up to dry outside and spray the fabric whilst still damp with the Performance Repel stuff.    It isn't as good as the 'old' DWR stuff as Neil says, but it's less toxic. 
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: Birdman on 19:10:38, 27/10/20

I agree. Seems to work mostly OK on my Paramo stuff but not so great on my membrane-based waterproofs. Looks impressive doing the tap test but out on the hills, in fine blown rain, it wets out after a couple of hours.


I've said it before but I'll say it again - by far the best proofer I'm aware of is 303 Fabric Guard. That stuff is pretty much the same as the original PFC coatings you got on Goretex jackets in the past. However the reason they got rid of PFCs is because they're toxic to the environment and maybe even a little to the user. I think 303 is PFCs. I must admit to still using it.


If you do use it, you want to make sure your jacket is properly clean first - as in any Nikwax or other proofers removed. So you want to wash it in normal detergent, then Tech Wash (or liquid soap flakes) to remove the detergent and then a couple of rinses and then get it bone dry. Then you spray it with the 303.

My decade old Helly Hansen shell now beads like the day it was bought, possibly better in fact, and it doesn't just give up in fine mist, or where the arms rub etc, which I find Nikwax does. It's got that slippery feel to it that old DWC coatings used to have.


Interesting... I see they are still selling that stuff. It's expensive though... (£16.95 for 473ml). But I may give it a try next time.


Edit: Hmm... I'm not sure if this is supposed to be used for breathable stuff like Goretex, e-vent, etc
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: NeilC on 18:28:03, 28/10/20

Interesting... I see they are still selling that stuff. It's expensive though... (£16.95 for 473ml). But I may give it a try next time.


Edit: Hmm... I'm not sure if this is supposed to be used for breathable stuff like Goretex, e-vent, etc

The manufacturers state "Does not alter fabric color, feel, flammability or breathability"  


Believe me - it's just fine on Goretex or other membrane shells. They work perfectly after.
I wasn't sure so I tried it on a pair of old overtrousers. Breath well and water rolls off. Even mud doesn't seem to stick now!

Plenty of bikers and sailors use it on their Goretex kit.


One pump bottle does a few garments and it lasts for ages - well over a year in my experience.
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: Z3man on 16:54:30, 29/10/20
I decided that the previous jackets i mentioned at the start of this thread were a bit overkill for me and went for something a bit lighter.

I bought the Montane Levity jacket, really like it, fits perfectly, great hood etc.

It is Gortex Paclite, but is 75D so still feels quite protective without being too heavy and crinkly.

However i do have a small problem.

I have given it a cold shower test (just low pressure) before using it outside, it is totally waterproof as it should be, the water was bouncing off it.

However it is wetting on the outside of the jacket at some of the seems, the jacket is going a darker colour at some of the seems. I don't think this is a major problem as all the seems are taped inside so no water can get through.

Is this normal behaviour for a brand new Gortex jacket, if it isn't i will get it exchanged and try another one and see if that does it as well.

Do your jackets do this?

Any help would be much appreciated.
Title: Re: Does carrying a rucksack damage Gortex, does it wet out?
Post by: Birdman on 09:33:07, 30/10/20
@Z3man: I have never tested it that way, but it doesn't surprise me. There is a reason the seams are taped.

 
Personally I wouldn't care either. In persistent rain you are not going to stay bone-dry. Even if water doesn't leak through you are going to be wet from transpiration/ condensation and from water entering through the sleeves (especially when hiking with poles) and water on your face running down inside. As long as the jacket keeps 99% of the water out and acts as an effective wind barrier so I stay warm, I'm happy.