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Main Boards => Gear => Topic started by: fernman on 10:35:41, 23/08/20

Title: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: fernman on 10:35:41, 23/08/20
I've finally bitten the bullet, I'm pensioning off my old Windows phone (I know...) in favour of a new Android.

Can I get OS maps free anywhere? Or with a low-cost app?
I had two apps with 1:25k maps on my WP but so far I've not seen any equivalent for Android.
I seem to remember recommendations for ViewRanger in old threads on here, but I've since seen the maps are £24.99 a year, which I would rather avoid paying, or any other subscription.

So, any ideas please? And I do mean 'proper' maps like the paper ones, not the OS digital version.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: ninthace on 11:16:38, 23/08/20
Your last sentence confuses me.  I have the OS app on my phone and OS maps on my gps.  They look the same as the paper maps to me but have the advantage of being able to be enlarged (useful for close up navigation).  I would have thought that these days the paper maps and the digital maps come from the same digital source.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: Apache on 12:20:22, 23/08/20
I have never seen then in a reliable free form. Memory Map is the cheapest that I am aware of https://www.memory-map.co.uk/maps/2020-memory-map-os-explorer-1-25-000-great-britain (https://www.memory-map.co.uk/maps/2020-memory-map-os-explorer-1-25-000-great-britain)


Lifetime download is £150 and £60 for 1: 50,000



Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: WhitstableDave on 12:48:35, 23/08/20
...
Can I get OS maps free anywhere? Or with a low-cost app?...

I sincerely hope not.

I paid a couple of hundred pounds for full UK OS mapping for my GPS handheld, and we subscribe to OS Maps online at a significant cost.

I know that if others get the maps for nothing it makes no actual difference to me, but it's the principle!
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: ninthace on 13:23:25, 23/08/20
If you have a data signal try https://www.bing.com/maps/ (https://www.bing.com/maps/)  It will not tell you where you are or plot routes but it does have free OS mapping.  Select OS by clicking on the Roads button - top left.  50 and 25 thou available by zooming.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: GnP on 13:27:45, 23/08/20
Hi Fernman. Try https://www.walklakes.co.uk/maps/ (https://www.walklakes.co.uk/maps/)
It is free to use and a wonderful app. It gives total ascent , descent , mileage , naismith (if that rocks your boat) and a profile to view .

It shows OS mapping in 1:50k and 1:25k . I use it to plot walks and print off . You cannot use it in conjunction with a phone or tablet to walk with in real time though . Ie as a GPS .  Although I seem to remember questions/talk about that in one of their forums .

The owners ask you to donate if you feel that it is worth it . No fixed amount.

You can upload and download plotted routes . I plot a route , screen grab it then download as a jpeg then print off. I then use my little Etrex 20x with the route on , and the printed tile to give me the big picture , in case I want to detour or just scan the horizon and be able to name places/hills etc. Depending on the area on the OS map I have actually printed .
I used to use the OS mapping app but found that I was always using my etrex anyway as it is unobtrusive in so many ways. I purchased some great mapping from Talky Toaster for my E trex . I paid as it is more detailed than the free Open source mapping it is derived from and when zoomed in it gives more and clearer detail instead of degrading/pixellating .
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: fernman on 18:25:57, 23/08/20
Many thanks for the suggestions posted so far.

@ ninthace: I have seen OS digital maps in the past that showed contour lines, footpaths, etc, but they looked something like Open Street Map (but better). Definitely digital and differing from the paper maps. Perhaps things have changed since then?

@ ninthace and Gin & Platonic: I know of WalkLakes and OS maps on Bing, I have those bookmarked on my pc, but they are both websites.

What I was hoping for is something like the two apps I have on my old phone, one free and one about £7, which when opened show you an OS map centered on wherever in the country you happen to be standing at that moment.
They both have the disadvantage that there is no map if you don't have a signal, and while the paid one opens on 1:25k, the free one opens on OS 1:50k but when you zoom in to 1:25k it moves off centre so you lose your precise position.
Perhaps there is something to be said for the Windows Phone after all!
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: ninthace on 18:58:16, 23/08/20
The OS app will give you current mapping with a fully zoomable map.  There is no loss of image quality at the limit of zoom.  You can also have a compass tape underneath the map. You can download routes and mapping directly to your phone so you will not need a signal for it to work. It does require a subscription.  Just divide it by the number of walks you do. The more you walk, the cheaper per walk it gets and you get access to literally thousands of routes to choose from (nearly 500 of them are mine  O0 ).  The OS app will not record a track while following a route.

ViewRanger is free and has adequate mapping except for willd country IMHO.  The mapping can be downloaded for off line use.  As you know, you have to pay to get OS mapping but you can amortise the cost.  Upload the routes you have walked to VR and people will download them.  This can earn you credits.  These credits can be used to pay for you OS subscription.  That is how I got the mapping for my NZ trips.  As a walking tool, I prefer VR to OS and vice versa for planning.  I have both on my phone but I do not have OS mapping on VR so I do not pay twice.  If I want an OS picture, I flip between apps.  The VR app will record a track while following a route.  It also has a good post walk analysis function if that is your thing.  Again lots of downloadable routes  (465 of them are mine), with off line mapping.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: fernman on 19:56:59, 23/08/20
Two things I need to clarify:

I'm not interested in copying routes or making my own, I would just like OS maps that I can look at as I do when I'm away somewhere for example. The apps I have now have been useful for seeing my way from A to B when I've been in an area unfamiliar to me, and I've even stopped while driving and looked at the 1:50k to fine tune my directions when close to my destination.

Any subscription would be difficult to me. The same applies to the comments by Apache and WhitstableDave, what they paid is big money for me. My personal income only just lasts from one month to another, and the £200 I spent on a budget phone was only made possible by not buying petrol during lockdown.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: ninthace on 20:22:10, 23/08/20
Bing at least allows location access, which would be a starter as it would give you a 25000 OS map centred on your location, but as I said - it requires a data signal which may be an issue depending on your phone contract.  I have PAYG so I avoid downloads away from wifi where possible. Zooming out will give you the 50k map of the area.  It also has a directions function for finding your way from A to B.
Beyond that it is difficult.  OS mapping is copyrighted and tied down fairly tightly.  I know of websites where OS mapping can be had I have not heard of an app where their data is free to download for off line use.


Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: fernman on 20:43:29, 23/08/20
Thanks for that info ninthace, I wasn't aware of Bing's location finder. With BT I'm not often without BT Wifi, BT with FON, et al, wherever I go, while I scarcely dent my mothly data allowance.
So it looks like Bing will be the way to go for me. I shall look into it fully when I eventually get up and running (ref. Reply #2362 in The Small Rant Thread).
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: pleb on 21:01:40, 23/08/20
Well I am on my first month of my first smartphone (£99.95) and I wont be abandoning my paper maps, no never!  ;D
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: gunwharfman on 21:20:35, 23/08/20
I use Backcountry, the paid-for one (a once-only payment) I think it's about £14 nowadays? It OS for the UK from Bing and its designed for Android phones. I've used it for a number of years and have never had a problem. It has a compass, in fact two, one a full one, the other a half one. You can follow your route, you can do stats (I've never used it) you can download maps and you can use it in other countries if you wish. I started off by using the Backcountry free app and when I knew I was satisfied that this was the one, I bought it. I could have easiliy lived with the free appy but I must have had the urge to spend that day? I also prefer a one-off payment to a yearly subscription, much cheaper.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: gunwharfman on 21:24:01, 23/08/20
I like your price, there are so many good phones around these days, even the cheaper ones.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: GnP on 21:38:42, 23/08/20
I use Backcountry, the paid-for one (a once-only payment) I think it's about £14 nowadays? It OS for the UK from Bing and its designed for Android phones. I've used it for a number of years and have never had a problem. It has a compass, in fact two, one a full one, the other a half one. You can follow your route, you can do stats (I've never used it) you can download maps and you can use it in other countries if you wish. I started off by using the Backcountry free app and when I knew I was satisfied that this was the one, I bought it. I could have easiliy lived with the free appy but I must have had the urge to spend that day? I also prefer a one-off payment to a yearly subscription, much cheaper.

I have just downloaded Back Country Navigator and yes it does show OS mapping clearly and you can zoom right in without loss of detail . It shows exactly where you are as long as you have data I suppose . I wonder how much data it would use though if it was on for 6 hours say..
You might want to check it out Fernman. I was looking at the free option . So as GWM says it is very good , especially for the initial no outlay option .. O0 
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: fernman on 21:53:06, 23/08/20
Thank you both GWM and G&P, I shall check out BackCountry when I'm able. I see there's a trial version on their website that can be downloaded.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: fatmanwalking on 22:23:39, 23/08/20
i have no idea if google maps has the requisite accuracy or level of detail required but:

one day i got lost and had no data on my phone, out of frustration I opened up google maps and low and behold it showed a map of where I was.

i vaguely recall allowing google maps to download an offline map weeks/months prior when i was at home [censored] about with it.

Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: fatmanwalking on 13:46:50, 24/08/20

Edit:
I'm an idiot and completely derailed the conversation. I'll keep post intact but essentially I got on my high horse about open source and free mapping which turns out has nothing to do with what was asked.




The question in the original post was:

 
"Can I get OS maps free anywhere? Or with a low-cost app?"

 
These are not free maps, they're Ordnance Survey maps.


 

 
Original post:

Right so, hmmm...
 I've done a bit more looking into this topic and from what I can tell you can get what you need but it takes a few steps.
I've found there's a free app on android called locus map free which lets you install map files freely available from the internet. The app itself in my opinion makes it a little bit difficult to understand how to get decent free maps, but luckily there's a website with free downloads for it.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: fatmanwalking on 13:47:04, 24/08/20
instructions

on your android phone open play store and install:

locus map free

once installed, and you accept the terms and conditions open your phone's browser to:

https://www.openandromaps.org/en/legend/elevate-mountain-hike-theme (https://www.openandromaps.org/en/legend/elevate-mountain-hike-theme)

you'll see something about elevate 4 and there's a small button that says:

locus

locus map free will open and start to download something, go back to the phone's browser and go to:

https://www.openandromaps.org/en/downloads/europe (https://www.openandromaps.org/en/downloads/europe)

on my phone i had to look for united kingdom and press the + button to open up all the download options, on my pc it's already opened up and showing the options, any way the one you want is:

locus Map+Pois

this takes a while to download.

when it's finished you need to look for the little icon in the top left of the screen, it has 3 lines going through it, then:

1: select maps,
2: select offline,
3: then select the map you downloaded.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: ninthace on 14:08:54, 24/08/20
i have no idea if google maps has the requisite accuracy or level of detail required but:

one day i got lost and had no data on my phone, out of frustration I opened up google maps and low and behold it showed a map of where I was.

i vaguely recall allowing google maps to download an offline map weeks/months prior when i was at home [censored] about with it.
Google Maps on my phone are pretty much useless for walking.  No contours, no footpaths or bridleways and no named geographical features. They are OK for towns, cities and driving between them.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: fatmanwalking on 14:20:08, 24/08/20
Google Maps on my phone are pretty much useless for walking.  No contours, no footpaths or bridleways and no named geographical features. They are OK for towns, cities and driving between them.

thank you for clearing that up for me ninthace :) I'm not yet ready to tackle anything epic but that's valuable info for the future. ta!
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: ninthace on 14:45:15, 24/08/20
Right so, hmmm...
 I've done a bit more looking into this topic and from what I can tell you can get what you need but it takes a few steps.
I've found there's a free app on android called locus map free which lets you install map files freely available from the internet. The app itself in my opinion makes it a little bit difficult to understand how to get decent free maps, but luckily there's a website with free downloads for it.
  Locus Maps claims from its website to be an OS partner.  The Wiki entry on Locus Maps says it uses OS Opendata.  The only mapping I could find listed on the OS Opendata site was the 250k map of the UK.  I am not clear therefore if Locus Maps can deliver 50k and 25k OS maps for free or not.  Can you confirm this?




Edit to add:
The Locus map website claims to provide 40k OS mapping https://www.locusmap.eu/amazing-ordnance-survey-maps-for-uk-travels/   This is not a format I am familiar with.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: fatmanwalking on 21:51:36, 24/08/20
i really dont know
i had taken for granted that their use of the 10m topographical data that's available as a sign it was really good and accurate. now that i'm trying to browse the forum and signup to ask the site has gone down and i cant do anything. sorry about that.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 21:58:22, 24/08/20
Isn’t 40k what Harveys uses on its maps?
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: pauldawes on 22:09:58, 24/08/20
Isn’t 40k what Harveys uses on its maps?


On some. They use a mix...some 25k, some 30k, some 40k
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: vizzavona on 08:20:37, 25/08/20
I go along with Whitstabledave....Why expect good maps for nought when most of us shell out good money for GPS's or and Phones.
It is possible to get older versions of the MM maps for much less that the latest versions....in Scotland there are not too many alterations to maps within a year and even looking at the latest versions the changes don't seem to have caught up with the O.S. folks. Alternately is the around £20 annual subscription not a good deal. I think that I have read somewhere that MM maps are also offering an annual subscription for their maps.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: fatmanwalking on 08:43:00, 25/08/20
Nothing wrong with expecting good free maps.

 
 Just because you pay for it doesn't mean we all must, surely?


I've written software that was used by literally millions of  people and I gave it away for free. For a while I even gave away the source code freely. Random strangers on the Internet contributed for free too. People I don't even know fixed bugs for me. That's very much normal nowadays.


Open source software, open hardware, it's spread to many industries including farming even.


Now obviously people need to eat. So usually a service of some kind is offered or they take donations but ultimately you aren't being milked regularly for some subscriptions.



Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: WhitstableDave on 08:48:05, 25/08/20
The question in the original post was:

"Can I get OS maps free anywhere? Or with a low-cost app?"

These are not free maps, they're Ordnance Survey maps.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: fatmanwalking on 09:00:01, 25/08/20
Ahh I see.
I totally misunderstood.

Crap sorry. I've edited my post recommending the freely available non OS maps to reflect my mistake.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: watershed on 09:13:19, 25/08/20
Hi,
   you used to be able to buy a one off payment of an area or region, with Viewranger.
That is how I got the maps I needed for my walking in Scotland. Namely at home in Shetland or walking in Scotland on the TGO Challenge.
I bought the Northern Highlands of Scotland (Northern Highlands, Orkney)
the Southern Highlands of Scotland (Southern Highlands & Hebrides)
and the North East Scotland


I may go for the years subscription if I ever do a big multi day walk South of the Border.
I got my maps in 2017 for about £15 pounds as a one off payment , discounted to anyone doing the TGO, I bought a few extra tiles to include the beginning of the WHW in 2019 for a couple of pounds.
Try this link.


https://shop.viewranger.com/product_details.php?item_id=589 (https://shop.viewranger.com/product_details.php?item_id=589)

Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: gunwharfman on 09:40:53, 25/08/20
You can get free OS maps, I know of two, Bing and Backcountry.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: pauldawes on 09:46:22, 25/08/20
Ahh I see.
I totally misunderstood.

Crap sorry. I've edited my post recommending the freely available non OS maps to reflect my mistake.


Not surprised you got confused...I’ve seen OS used for open source at least as often as ordnance survey.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: Dread on 11:05:10, 25/08/20
Hi,
   you used to be able to buy a one off payment of an area or region, with Viewranger.
That is how I got the maps I needed for my walking in Scotland. Namely at home in Shetland or walking in Scotland on the TGO Challenge.
I bought the Northern Highlands of Scotland (Northern Highlands, Orkney)
the Southern Highlands of Scotland (Southern Highlands & Hebrides)
and the North East Scotland


I may go for the years subscription if I ever do a big multi day walk South of the Border.
I got my maps in 2017 for about £15 pounds as a one off payment , discounted to anyone doing the TGO, I bought a few extra tiles to include the beginning of the WHW in 2019 for a couple of pounds.
Try this link.


https://shop.viewranger.com/product_details.php?item_id=589 (https://shop.viewranger.com/product_details.php?item_id=589)


Yes, you can buy £5.99 worth of credits which allows  around you to download 20 OS tiles. That will cover an area such as the Dark Peak. You can keep these for ever. Gets expensive though so a £24.99 annual sub is often the better deal.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: WhitstableDave on 11:15:14, 25/08/20

Not surprised you got confused...I’ve seen OS used for open source at least as often as ordnance survey.
As an experiment I just googled 'OS Maps'. Every result on the first three pages referred to Ordnance Survey maps and none to open source maps. I got bored after three pages, so perhaps references to open source maps were on the fourth page...
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: fernman on 11:48:35, 25/08/20
Many thanks for the suggestions posted so far.

@ ninthace: I have seen OS digital maps in the past that showed contour lines, footpaths, etc, but they looked something like Open Street Map (but better). Definitely digital and differing from the paper maps.

I've found what I was referring to above in my reply #6.
The screen grab below is from OS Maps: Explore hiking trails and walking routes, for Android phone. Definitely not the same as the paper maps.
The clue is in the small print, where it says "Subscribe to unlock the detail and accuracy of OS leisure maps across the whole country including OS Explorer 1: 25,000 and OS Landranger 1:50,000 maps."

(https://i.postimg.cc/8csbYS3y/Image-1.jpg)
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: pauldawes on 12:04:35, 25/08/20
As an experiment I just googled 'OS Maps'. Every result on the first three pages referred to Ordnance Survey maps and none to open source maps. I got bored after three pages, so perhaps references to open source maps were on the fourth page...


Lol.


I’ve just duplicated your experiment with same result.




On other hand OSM tends to give main result as Open Street map....so maybe that is usual acronym for open source maps?





Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: GnP on 12:54:06, 25/08/20
You can get free OS maps, I know of two, Bing and Backcountry.


Yes indeed you can use the free version of Black Country Navigator and use OS mapping for free on your phone as a GPS.


(edit) That is right down to 1.25k on Ordnance Survey .
 A bargain . ;)


 
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: ninthace on 13:31:50, 25/08/20
I've found what I was referring to above in my reply #6.
The screen grab below is from OS Maps: Explore hiking trails and walking routes, for Android phone. Definitely not the same as the paper maps.
The clue is in the small print, where it says "Subscribe to unlock the detail and accuracy of OS leisure maps across the whole country including OS Explorer 1: 25,000 and OS Landranger 1:50,000 maps."

(https://i.postimg.cc/8csbYS3y/Image-1.jpg)
That view seems to be using the Standard Map in the OS app (with added place names).  Selecting OS Leisure Maps will give you the normal OS 25k or 50k mapping.  Try tapping that button bottom right that looks like a pile of sandwiches and see what it offers you, in the OS app you get a choice of Standard Map, Off Road Routing, Aerial, Greenspace and Nightmap.


Screen thumbnails from my phone using the OS app.  Tap to get the full screen

With Standard Map selected
(https://i.ibb.co/mzgcJdg/Screenshot-20200825-131049-OS-Maps.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mzgcJdg)
With OS Leisure Maps selected
(https://i.ibb.co/h9YZs5H/Screenshot-20200825-131625-OS-Maps.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h9YZs5H)


Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: watershed on 14:49:18, 25/08/20

Yes, you can buy £5.99 worth of credits which allows  around you to download 20 OS tiles. That will cover an area such as the Dark Peak. You can keep these for ever. Gets expensive though so a £24.99 annual sub is often the better deal.


Yes for me walking in only Scotland since 2017, it has cost me in the region of twenty quid.
But if I decide to go further afield I might go for the yearly subscription.
Either option I think is a good deal.


It has all I need for electronics.


I am not thankfully a "gadget man" and as I can take my own pulse it allows me to do away with the need to wear any other fripperies.

Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: fatmanwalking on 19:25:29, 25/08/20

Not surprised you got confused...I’ve seen OS used for open source at least as often as ordnance survey.

Thank you. I feel a bit less embarrassed now.  :/
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: vizzavona on 13:45:39, 28/08/20
Thanks...that is all cleared up now.  I have tended to used the abbreviated form for the Ordnance Survey.  

From now on now it will always be the full name when talking of maps. The mickey mouse maps are maybe  fine for the lower level ground? I don't know, I have always used the Ordnance Survey ones for moving around in Scotland.
Well not completely I also use the Harvey Maps for the Cairngorms and the Cuillin Map that they have...one side 1:25,000 with the reverse side of 1:12,500.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: GnP on 13:56:48, 28/08/20
I think Open Source maps are ok in well trodden areas and they often show paths where they actually are , and not where they were decades ago as Ordnance Survey sometimes do . They often show new paths too , which is great at times , but I would not put all my trust in them . I think they are still work in progress and maybe always will be .
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: Eyelet on 18:10:46, 06/09/20

Just bear in mind that all mapping app vendors are reselling Ordnance Survey (OS) 1:50k and 1:25k digital mapping data to you. You are either purchasing a fixed-term subscription (like for the OS app) to access the whole of the UK: when the subscription expires, you have no access anymore. Otherwise you are buying a set of map tiles for a specific area which are yours to keep in perpetuity (like the View Ranger app), but can’t be used on another vendors app. You have to decide which charging model is right for you, so use the free trials to help decide which app you find is easiest the to use and has the functionality you want.

 
As far as I know, while you can view OS mapping free in a web browser on many sites (e.g. Bing, WalkHighlands, WalkLakes, etc) you cannot download and save map tiles to your phone to use while navigate on the hill, apart from saving a screen shot as a static image. So when you inevitably lose the phone signal, you lose access to the mapping site.

 
One other advantage of apps like Locus and View Ranger over the OS app is that you can get Harvey Maps too, and if you hike outside the UK you can buy and use other country national mapping e.g. French IGN without having to learn yet another navigation app.

 
I use the OS app as a back-up for my Garmin GPSr and the app IMHO is good value for money and easy to use. You can take advantage of a free one-week trial or subscribe for a month at a time or a whole year: check out the OS online shop.

 
One other point which hasn’t been mentioned so far is that when you purchase a shiny new OS map today, it comes printed with a one-time pass-code which lets you download a complimentary identical digital copy of the map to be used in conjunction with the OS app. This is located on the inside cover and covered with a scratch-off coating (check the coating is intact when you buy!). So you could download the OS app for free then buy a new OS map in the knowledge that you will be able to have the identical map on your phone at no extra charge.

 
If you are still using a paper map but do not have the mapping on your phone, install the free OS Locate app which will use your phone’s GPS location to give you an OSGB Grid Reference which you can use with the map (no phone signal required). The app has a compass as well.

 
OpenStreetMap

 
Also, it would be clearer if we all used OSM maps to refer to the open source mapping derived from the global OpenStreetMap project.  

 
There are many maps which are compiled using mapping data from OSM, some are free and some are paid for. Free ones include: OpenCycleMap, OpenTopoMap, HikeBikeMap, OpenBusMap. For walkers, OpenTopoMap has added contours and walls, and has matured to the point that in my experience it is generally usable for navigation. Go to an area you know and check it out.  

 
For areas you don’t know, compare it to a map and look at aerial imaging of the same area on Google Earth. The Cicerone blog "Want more walks - navigation in a digital world" will give you some ideas of how to do this.

 
Paid maps using OSM mapping have other data added for the specific map purpose. A good example is by Martin Overton who runs the Talky Toaster website. He does both free OSM maps and paid-for ones where he has added value with lots more detail for hiking. (These are formatted for use with Garmin GPSr devices, so are not helpful for Android users, but the site will give you a good understanding of the differences in terms of what you might be getting by paying for a map derived from OSM data, and how close they are now getting to OS maps.

 
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: fernman on 20:37:12, 06/09/20
If you are still using a paper map but do not have the mapping on your phone, install the free OS Locate app which will use your phone’s GPS location to give you an OSGB Grid Reference which you can use with the map (no phone signal required). The app has a compass as well.

Thank you for your interesting and informative post.
I'd just like, for now, to comment that in my opinion the OS Locate app would be better if it gave the option of an eight figure grid ref.
Personally I prefer something more precise than six figures (one of my uses for grid refs is for botanical recording) and for that reason I have uninstalled OS Locate in favour of one of the other grid ref apps that are available, even though they lack a compass.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: Eyelet on 12:01:21, 07/09/20
That's an interesting point. A 6-digit GR will put you in a 100m x 100m square and an 8-digit GR will reduce that area to a 10m x 10m square which could be useful as you have indicated.


However you have to bear in mind that the app is getting its position fix from the GPS chip and converting it to a GR mathematically. Most phone GPS chips will give you an uncertainty in your horizontal position fix of say +/- 5m 95% of the time, giving your position in a 10m diameter circle. That 10m circle is most unlikely to just fit precisely inside a  single 10m x 10m square and considerably more likely to overlap with two, three or four adjacent 10m squares, so the point estimate of your 8-digit GR may not be quite as accurate as you think.


However there is an excellent chance that the 10m circle lies within the 100m x 100m square of the 6-digit GR. In 5% of the location fixes (1 in 20) the GPS position uncertainty will be larger and that 8-digit GR could thus be in many more 10m x 10m squares. This may well be why OS developed the app to report only 6-digits, which keeps it simpler but with enough precision to locate someone.


Also back then there were a lot of smart phones that only used the GPS satellite system, whereas today's GPS phone chips are multi-GNSS and use GPS, Galileo, GLONASS satellite signals etc which give a more precise position fix. They also use Satellite Based Augmentation Systems (SBAS) such as EGNOS to improve this precision even more.


Your reply did prompt me to look at what other GR generating apps were available: which one do you use?


I have now installed the free GridPoint GB app which does give a 10-digit GR. When this is opened and you are stationary, you can see the GR numbers change as the GPS chip probes its circle of uncertainty every second which validates the points I made above. You need to round off the rightmost digits (which are demonstrably unreliable) to get to an 8-digit GR. I like its positional display and especially the extra options to share not only the GR and lat/long, but the nearest post code and links to both streetmap and Google maps. The recipient can click on the Streetmap link to display your position on OS 1-25 and 1-50k mapping in a web browser which is a neat feature. (You can email it to yourself to check it). So lots of uses in addition to walking.


I also came across two interesting lists of apps which use maps that have been compiled from OSM mapping data - one for Android and one for iOS on the wiki.openstreetmap.org website - I had no idea there were so many now! This has a useful "Comparison of applications" table which looks in-depth at each app's features - well worth a browse to see what is out there.




Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: vizzavona on 17:24:32, 08/09/20
Hello.... With the Memory Maps that I have on the phone it is possible to get a ten figure grid reference by pulling down a 'tab thing' from the top of the screen when using the maps.

Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: Eyelet on 18:30:16, 10/09/20
The OSMaps app will also give you a ten digit Grid Reference, by pressing and holding the desired location.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: ninthace on 19:14:40, 10/09/20
The OSMaps app will also give you a ten digit Grid Reference, by pressing and holding the desired location.
And it offers a share option which, if you email or Whatsapp, will send a hyperlink showing the location as a dropped pin on the OS  website.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: gunwharfman on 19:19:06, 10/09/20
Excuse my ignorance but why would I need an eight or a ten digit grid reference?
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: ninthace on 19:30:07, 10/09/20
Excuse my ignorance but why would I need an eight or a ten digit grid reference?
To specify a location more precisely.  For example, where a particular object is located or where a picture was taken.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: Eyelet on 20:45:10, 10/09/20
For the same reason we use 6 digit grid references rather than 4 digit grid references - the GR positions your location in a smaller area:


4 digit e.g. SK 54 16         1000 x 1000 m (1,000,000 sq metres)
6 digit e.g. SK 540 162       100 x 100 m (10,000 sq metres)
8 digit e.g. SK 5405 1623     10 x 10 m (100 sq metres)
10 digit e.g. SK 54058 16239  1 x 1 m (1 sq metre)

That said, with the current state of the art for consumer GPS devices we cannot get sufficient precision to locate ourselves to a single 1 x 1 m square and even to a single 10 x 10 m square is a challenge. The EU Galileo GNSS project however is aiming at sub-metric precision more akin to professional surveying GPS devices which use two signals from each satellite instead of one, so we may be able to do it on our phones in a few years.

 
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: vizzavona on 08:17:15, 11/09/20
Thanks for that eyelet. O0
As well as the MM maps now on the phone transferred from my purchase that I made for the PC many years ago.  I also have the Ordnance Survey maps on the Annual fee. Up till know I got the map references via the OS Locate feature...6 figs.
However as you said the more accurate refs. are available when the map feature is 'pressed'.
Eight digits with the two alphas to locate...then additionally the ten digit location is preceded by another digit and East and North.  Does the East and North prior to the digits take the place of the two Alphas that we are familiar with to give a reference within the 100 Kl. 'square' of the system?
I'm sure that you will keep me right on this as you seem to be well up on all this.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: fernman on 09:42:19, 11/09/20
That's an interesting point. A 6-digit GR will put you in a 100m x 100m square and an 8-digit GR will reduce that area to a 10m x 10m square which could be useful as you have indicated.

However you have to bear in mind that the app is getting its position fix from the GPS chip and converting it to a GR mathematically. Most phone GPS chips will give you an uncertainty in your horizontal position fix of say +/- 5m 95% of the time, giving your position in a 10m diameter circle. That 10m circle is most unlikely to just fit precisely inside a  single 10m x 10m square and considerably more likely to overlap with two, three or four adjacent 10m squares, so the point estimate of your 8-digit GR may not be quite as accurate as you think.[

I have used a Garmin eTrex H to check plant records (ferns, of course!) that have 8 figure grid references in woods and elsewhere, and every time it has been a case of go to the point, look around you and there it is within a few feet. Obviously of limited interest to members on here, but it can have other uses.

Your reply did prompt me to look at what other GR generating apps were available: which one do you use?

It is this one: https://grid-reference.en.aptoide.com/app (https://grid-reference.en.aptoide.com/app)

I have now installed the free GridPoint GB app which does give a 10-digit GR. When this is opened and you are stationary, you can see the GR numbers change as the GPS chip probes its circle of uncertainty every second which validates the points I made above. You need to round off the rightmost digits (which are demonstrably unreliable) to get to an 8-digit GR.

Many years ago I was sternly ticked off by an eminent botanist (sorry, that again!) who told me - in writing - that you can not round up the places when reducing the number of figures in a grid reference, like you do with decimal places in maths. My brain is currently too befuddled to go into the ins and outs of it, and I don't have any notes to quote, it is etched on my memory, but basically it puts you in the wrong square. I'll leave you to work it out.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: fernman on 10:28:02, 11/09/20
The mists have cleared a little. If you round up an 8 figure grid ref, say SU 3248 5136, to SU 325 514, you are in then in the wrong square and you should be in SU 324 513.

Worth remembering before you plummet to your death from a cliff.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: vizzavona on 14:11:57, 11/09/20
Hello.... Same square... All you are doing is adjusting the third digit if the fourth is greater than 5.:-)
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: GoneWest on 14:37:39, 11/09/20
Hello.... Same square... All you are doing is adjusting the third digit if the fourth is greater than 5.:-)


That depends on whether you regard the east and north boundaries as being in the "same square" as defined by the west and south boundaries. Mathematically, the former must define a different square (of whatever size). However, it's all nonsense, as you imply. Obviously, to me anyway, you should estimate your position with the best accuracy you can, but no better (to paraphrase Einstein). If this means rounding up or down, to give an honest impression of achieved accuracy, then so be it. Which grid square your particular position then falls in is of only academic interest. Anyone tryng to rescue you, for instance, would be searching within a reasonable radius of your quoted position, not treating nearby grid lines on the map as impenetrable fences on the ground!
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: Eyelet on 15:41:26, 11/09/20
...then additionally the ten digit location is preceded by another digit and East and North.  Does the East and North prior to the digits take the place of the two Alphas that we are familiar with to give a reference within the 100 Kl. 'square' of the system?


Yes, these are Eastings and Northings which give the 100km unit east and north of the grid origin - see the following link for a clear explanation: digimap.edina.ac.uk/webhelp/os/data_information/os_data_issues/grid_ref_conversion.htm.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: Eyelet on 16:23:46, 11/09/20
I have used a Garmin eTrex H to check plant records (ferns, of course!) that have 8 figure grid references in woods and elsewhere, and every time it has been a case of go to the point, look around you and there it is within a few feet.


An 8 figure GR puts you in a ~33ft square so you are doing well to find the fern within a few feet, but then I bet you know what you are looking for! 


I should also have mentioned that one can get a more precise position fix by way point averaging. Those of you who have seen the point cloud or "spaghetti" in your recorded track where you stopped for lunch or otherwise left your phone or GPSr unit stationary for some time have simply observed the circle of uncertainty in the position fix over a period of time. Some GPSr units have a setting where you can get an average position from recording multiple points which is generally more precise than simply taking one observation. If you take the time to do this, your GR will be more precise.

Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: fernman on 17:25:24, 11/09/20
Hello.... Same square... All you are doing is adjusting the third digit if the fourth is greater than 5.:-)

OK, so you're thinking of 1km squares as shown on Ordnance Survey maps and I'm thinking of smaller squares.

Let me put it another way. The grid reference I used before was made up in my head. Now for a real one. The eight figure summit of Snowdon is at SH60985437. No, I'm not that clever, I looked it up.

Now round it up to six figures, SH610544, at which point you won't be on the summit, you'll be falling down Clogwyn y Garnedd. You'll be safe on SH609543.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: Fife Walking on 10:32:38, 24/08/21
For Android, YES.


There is an app called TrigpointingUK which is designed for people that bag trig points. However, it gives you free access to both Explorer and Landranger online mapping. It's not the latest mapping that you pay for on the OS app, I think it is about a year behind but it does the job perfectly. You don't get any route planning tools but for an online map with the facility to locate your position it's ideal.


If you can't find the app in the Playstore then you can download it from the trigpointing uk website.


I downloaded it years ago just for the purpose of getting free OS mapping on my first smartphone (I don't think the OS app even existed at the time), unfortunately I've become addicted to trig bagging because of it!


Susan
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: Patrick1 on 12:01:46, 24/08/21
Useful to know about TrigpointingUK. Does it need a data signal or can it be used offline?


Can I also mention the free app "Maverick" for Android? It shows your position on a map even when offline, and can record your track / display a gpx route. Its designed to use a huge variety of possible map sources, and many no longer seem to work - I suspect its a while since its been updated. However, the "OS Explorer" option under "More maps" shows standard OS maps, both 1:50,000 and 1:25,000 (I think sourced from Bing). "Tiles" are downloaded when you view them online, and remain "cached", allowing you to subsequently view the same area, at the same scale, offline. OS is only viewable at certain zoom levels (levels 12 to 17 on the indicator between the zoom buttons) - selecting an alternative map source (I tend to use "Microsoft Maps") can be useful for an overview when zoomed further out.


Its a bit quirky in use - the need to have viewed an area online before using it offline takes a bit of getting used to - but overall it does the job very well, is free, and I'm suprised its not more popular. Its been my standard phone mapping app for walking for as long as I've owned an Android phone - five years or so.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: Fife Walking on 18:54:09, 24/08/21
Trigpointing would require a data signal I think. Thanks for the tip about Maverick - something else to have a look at.

Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: WILDWALKINGUK on 08:23:53, 04/09/21
I use the OS mapping on my phone and walked the length of the country twice with this as my only navigation. It's worked perfectly and been great having the mapping for the whole country on the phone all the time. I don't need a signal to use it or the GPS. I purchased it for around £60 for life or you can pay, I think £12 a year, which is then continually updated. I don't know how it all works, my son set it up and we have written about it here if you would like more details: https://wildwalkinguk.com/2020/01/05/mapping-and-gps-i-use-when-hiking/

Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: Eyelet on 10:24:03, 04/10/21
You appear to have been using the Memory-Map app, but the quoted prices are from years ago!
https://w2.memory-map.com/cgi-bin/licuser.cgi?buydealer=1&feature=0x1002102 (https://w2.memory-map.com/cgi-bin/licuser.cgi?buydealer=1&feature=0x1002102)
The annual subscription pricing today is more expensive than the equivalent map package from Ordnance Survey to use with the OS app. MM £33.33+VAT, OS £23.99inc VAT for 1-25k and 1-50k package.

The MM perpetual licence for 1-25k is £104+VAT; 1-25k plus 1-50k is £166.66+VAT.

Others will know whether the functionality of the MM vs. OS app is worth paying the extra. I use the OS app on annual subscription and the maps are never out of date.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: gunwharfman on 12:56:36, 04/10/21
I just use the Backcountry app (it uses OS maps) on my phone, I've had it a number of years and it's more than adequate for my hikes. It's a once-only payment, less than £5 when I bought it, but I think now it's about £12 but still a once-only payment. I just couldn't bring myself to pay out more than £20 a year, I just don't have that need, as long as I can get from A to B that's all I'm worried about.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: BuzyG on 14:20:14, 04/10/21
My this thread has been running a while.  I'm still buying paper maps, because I enjoy collecting and using them.

The current bonus remains, that you can download the content of any new paper OS maps you buy, to your phone.  Then use them subscription free, from that point on.  I have been doing this for several years now and have All the areas a walk covered with no ongoing expense. I bought two new maps this year for our trip to Pembrokeshire.  A quick plug for Trago Mills, they sell them for £5.99  O0   

Another way to view it.  My digital mapping has cost me £11:98 this year and I get the paper maps to collect for free. ;)
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: ninthace on 17:12:42, 04/10/21
Paper maps? How quaint!   ;)
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: BuzyG on 18:31:18, 04/10/21
Paper maps? How quaint!   ;)


Indeed, I blame a lady called Mrs Brown. A next door neighbour when I was but 9 or 10.  She gave me her husbands maps from WWII, he was a pilot.  Both silk of the far east and linen based paper maps that cover the entire UK.  I loved maps before that, which is why she gave those precious possessions to me. i will always love maps, silk, paper or digital. They show the world through another's eyes and are ours to interpret and enjoy. O0
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: April on 20:32:22, 04/10/21
I love paper maps. When I eventually migrate to the MM app (OS app has been rubbish in my experience) I will still be buying the OS paper maps too  :)
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: ninthace on 23:18:37, 04/10/21
My father was a pilot in WW2 and something of a map fan.  I learned from him and from the scouts.  I even did a fair bit of flying cross country myself in pre gps days where getting lost could get you into hot water quite quickly in our crowded skies.


I have a lot of paper maps and used to be a fan but now I prefer digital on a decent sized laptop screen.  For a start it is all one map and being able to zoom in to see detail is a bonus.  There is no information available on a paper map that is not available on a digital version whereas a digital map will show you things not easily available on a paper map.  For me, maps are essentially practical items and the message is more important than the medium.


Yes I enjoy old maps, I still like looking at them but for actual route planning and preparation, give me a screen.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: Eyelet on 23:04:02, 06/10/21
I use the OS app on annual subscription and the maps are never out of date.


Just to clarify, what I meant is that the digital mapping available on the OS app is the latest release from OS i.e. it is updated free twice a year. Some other apps you have to pay again to buy updated mapping.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: BuzyG on 11:29:17, 07/10/21
This is an interesting point as someone who uses the digital download from a specific paper map.  I would expect whenever I delete and then download the map, that it is a more recent copy than the one I purchased. Simply because that would make life easier for OS to administer.  But then a few users may actually want to use the older version.  Not some thing I have checked against my paper copies, though I expect at some point I will spot a change. If my thinking is indeed correct, which is not certain.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: Eyelet on 11:46:49, 07/10/21
That's a good point. I would also have thought that when you download the using the map code you get the latest map tiles that correspond to the area of the paper map, rather than the exact tiles matching the paper map which could be several years out of date. It would be worth asking OS Customer Support about this and whether you get the updated version if you delete the map tiles and re-download them.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: Mel on 12:56:55, 07/10/21
If you’re on about the Ordnance Survey paper maps with scratch code then no. 


You have basically bought a digital version of that paper map and the scratch code is specific to that map – a bit like a barcode.  It does not download a newer version if you uninstall it and reload it.


Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: Eyelet on 13:18:41, 07/10/21
That's useful to know - another advantage for OS subscription mapping.

I came across this informative blog post: https://peaksandlines.com/blog/posts/when-was-my-map-last-updated/ (https://peaksandlines.com/blog/posts/when-was-my-map-last-updated/) but don't know if anything has changed in the last four years regarding the methodology or frequency.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: BuzyG on 19:13:38, 07/10/21
If you’re on about the Ordnance Survey paper maps with scratch code then no. 

You have basically bought a digital version of that paper map and the scratch code is specific to that map – a bit like a barcode.  It does not download a newer version if you uninstall it and reload it.

Where did you read that Mel? 

It's hard to see how OS would administer that system cheaply over a long period.  Some one buying a newer version of a paper map, after there had been a change, would be downloading from a different source than I would. As some one who spent much of his working life working on data bases, I can see that would be complex and expensive to administer. Much simpler to provide the same down load to all your users, than have a specific map at a specific point in time stored specifically for old users to down load.

I'm not saying for one moment that you are wrong. I would just like to understand the reasoning and source of what you said.
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: Mel on 22:49:44, 07/10/21
It was an email from OS in 2014 or thereabouts.  Basically they said it would be financial suicide for them to allow a one-off payment for something that would be updated for free for ever more.  All you’re doing is buying a digital replica of the paper map you bought.  If you want “free” map updates then take out a subscription.
 
They didn’t quite word it like that mindst   ;D
 
… having said that, thinking about it now, perhaps that info did only relate to the initial download of the scratch code.  So I’ve no idea if you would get an updated version if you deleted it and re-installed it.  I suspect not but, try it!  Let us know how you get on – you may have found a loophole! This response on their FAQs page doesn't really touch on whether or not it would be an updated version https://shop.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/mobile-download-faq/#maprights
 
From our (end user) slant though … if we all bought paper maps with scratch code for the whole of the UK, yes, the initial outlay for US would be painful but yay, that’s it.  For ever.  Free updated maps. Until we die.
 
From Ordnance Survey’s point of view, … if we all bought paper maps with scratch code for the whole of the UK, yes, the initial income for OS would be great but would dry up eventually as we the end user, would never need to buy another map again ever. 
 
Looking at it another way, if the scratch code allows free map updates, why bother paying a subscription?
 
…I wish I could buy a car and get a free upgrade each time a new model came out  :D
 
Title: Re: OS maps for my new phone???
Post by: BuzyG on 01:23:32, 08/10/21
OK, a bit of map searching and I noted that the new town of Sherford is not shown on my paper map or on my digital download of the OL20 OS map.  They still show Sherford Kilns. So clearly my paper map and digital down load are both out of date.

It is shown on Bing's digital OS map. But we have established, that is not the same database.

What I need now is someone with a new copy of OL20 paper map, that shows the new town of Sherford. If that is out there then Mel, you are correct in what you say.