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Main Boards => General Walking Discussion => Topic started by: whitehorse on 15:02:57, 06/11/15

Title: access on foot in scotland- how does it work?
Post by: whitehorse on 15:02:57, 06/11/15
I'm thinking of taking the family on holiday to Scotland, probably Dumfries and Galloway as it isnt too far to drive and seems to have a nice mix of beaches and coast and uplands.

Going to show my ignorance now- had a look online at the OS 1:25,000 and my first thought was that there were no footpaths or bridleways! A quick internet search enlightened me and I think I understand that according to the law you can walk anywhere within reason.

How does this translate in reality though? obviously straightforward on moorland etc but what about on farmland? say we wanted to walk to a feature of interest e.g. a cave, old church etc- do we just traipse where we like across people's land? or do we need to stick to tracks?

I know some folks complain about footpaths but at least you know where you are with them- and that most of the time there are stiles and gates to use.

I just have visions of having to make everyone walk miles to find ways through hedges and walls only to be chased by some angry old farmer in a landrover as I've read the access rules wrong  :o

Title: Re: access on foot in scotland- how does it work?
Post by: vizzavona on 16:07:13, 06/11/15
Hello,
There should be enough information in the  mountaineering council's website...MC of S....on access and related matters.
Personally not had any difficulties with access on the more elevated areas of Scotland....paths are marked on the 1:50,000 and on the 1:25,000 maps.  Don't do too much walking at the lower levels but common sense should be the of prime importance when near farmland.  I live at 300 metres above sea level. :)
Title: Re: access on foot in scotland- how does it work?
Post by: Slogger on 17:13:19, 06/11/15
Private land is still private land and there are footpaths and tracks. The access land refers to uncultivated rough pasture as far as I understand.
Title: Re: access on foot in scotland- how does it work?
Post by: whitehorse on 17:49:18, 06/11/15

I'm glad there are footpaths and tracks for public access (I'd feel a bit uncomfortable just walking anywhere on farmland), but how can you tell on the OS maps where is private and where you can walk? CROW land, FP's and BP's aren't shown on the Scotland side of the border.
Title: Re: access on foot in scotland- how does it work?
Post by: barewirewalker on 19:40:50, 06/11/15
I too would be interested in a local take on this question. On the old Rambler's Forum in was discussed just a few months after the passing of the Scottish Land Reform Act 2003 that that gave Scots a right of responsible access to their countryside. As I understood it, provided you were behaving responsibly, a landowner could ask why you were on his land but had no right to stop your way if your behaviour is reasonable and not likely to cause damage to crops, stock or property.


When I holidayed on the Isle of Arran, our host at the cottage I rented, told us it was not possible to trespass in Scotland and we enjoyed a week roaming freely both on the shoreline and in the hills.


This year I spent a weekin Dumfries and Galloway, climbed the Meyrich where there are good paths and plenty of wilderness to roam in. We climbed Ben John overlooking the Water of Fleet, the bracken surrounding it made approach rather limited but we walked across farmland and forestry tracks and were not stopped or challenged.


Before I went I looked at a number of sites where walks were posted by local walking groups and what surprised me that these groups did not seem to use their freedom to do more challenging lowland routes. For instance one linear route along the coast from The Isle of Whithorn to St Ninian's cave was done by the group splitting their cars so that they could be ferried back to the start. I found that it would have been quite possible to have walked either destinations as circular walks using field margins and field access gates. Although the crops, primarily Oats were well in ear, the field margins had been sprayed out and would be accessible without damage to crops and margins were easy to walk.


The 2003 act has passed 10 years and its evaluation was favourable so it should be pointing the way for a more enlightened attitude to access elsewhere. Scotland has less footpaths than England, the building of 'A Core Path Network' was the aim to back up the right to roam, but I suspect that this has run out of steam.
Title: Re: access on foot in scotland- how does it work?
Post by: Summit on 20:14:17, 06/11/15
The truth is the law is on your side as a walker. I live in Scotland and the law basically is you can walk anywhere. There is no trespass law in Scotland. You can not stop anyone being on your land as long as they are not committing a breach of the peace.


Respectfully your asked not to walk right up to people's Windows and peer in. But if your walk takes you past one then you are welcome to do so. However if a path is nearby please respectfully keep to the path.


Farm land. You can in theory walk across any farm land. Especially just now where fields are low and crops are in seed. However if there are animals in the field it's your choice whether you want to join them. Fields with crops in then please respect the farmers livelihood and no one would bat an eyelid at you walking across the field using the tracks left by the tractor whilst seeding and fertilising.


Farmers and landowners will still put up signs saying private land and keep out etc however these signs are not law. It's a request as such and they have been asked to change the signs to read better.


polite notice signs have become more popular. For example. Polite notice we and our children live here please respect our privacy. Polite notice please don't park here etc.


The only exception to this is MOD land and British Nuclear Energy land which are both patrolled by respective armed Police and they will enforce certain areas. Ranges etc are marked on maps.


Any other questions please just ask.


Graeme.
Title: Re: access on foot in scotland- how does it work?
Post by: Owen on 20:19:16, 06/11/15
In lowland areas there are footpaths and they are marked just like in England. In more mountainous areas there are still footpaths but they aren't always marked on maps. They can be very faint and they wont normally be signposted, often they just don't get the same footfall as paths south of the border. If in doubt ask.
Title: Re: access on foot in scotland- how does it work?
Post by: agentmancuso on 20:24:59, 06/11/15
Strictly speaking, the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003 didn't give us a right of responsible access; it merely codified the de facto situation as written statute.

It's a matter of common sense. Don't walk through crops or gardens. Use gates and styles where possible. Use tracks in the vicinity of dwellings. Avoid mines, quarries & the M.o.D. Otherwise, go anywhere you want.

I've walked many thousands of miles over farmland etc in the Lowlands, climbing small hills, looking for trigs and caches or just wandering around. Occasionally people express curiosity, but only twice in my life has anyone challenged my right to pass, and the last of those occasions was over 20 years ago.

It's our land.
Title: Re: access on foot in scotland- how does it work?
Post by: whitehorse on 21:08:03, 06/11/15
thanks for all the replies  :)

sounds like we'll just play it by ear (or should I say eye?). think I will miss looking at all the green dots and dashes on my trusty OS maps though!
Title: Re: access on foot in scotland- how does it work?
Post by: Slogger on 12:10:39, 07/11/15
Harvey maps that show clearly paths and tracks are best for when walking in Scotland.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=1:25,000+harvey+maps+of+scotland&biw=1600&bih=741&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CEkQsARqFQoTCJ2fqL6j_sgCFQS7FAodT7sFPw (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=1:25,000+harvey+maps+of+scotland&biw=1600&bih=741&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0CEkQsARqFQoTCJ2fqL6j_sgCFQS7FAodT7sFPw)
Title: Re: access on foot in scotland- how does it work?
Post by: whitehorse on 22:06:31, 07/11/15
thanks- do you know any websites where you can look at Harvey maps? (a bit like walkhighlands for the OS 1:25,000)
Title: Re: access on foot in scotland- how does it work?
Post by: vizzavona on 13:40:52, 08/11/15
Hello,
Don't know of any walking site? that has the Harvey maps on site to use.
The maps available are, so far, only for the more popular areas of Scotland.
I have used the Cairngorms one for some time now and also the very good one for the Cuillins.
You were worried about the lack of paths marked on the Scottish maps. If you sign in as a member to the WH site you will then have access to the full version of the 1:25,000 maps....paths and all the rest.
Title: Re: access on foot in scotland- how does it work?
Post by: mike knipe on 15:05:54, 08/11/15
In addition to the general rights of access already mentioned, where you can walk, more or less anywhere, providing you do it responsibly - i.e. not causing damage or a nuisance, there are also  some rights of way and these are detailed in a guide issued called "Scottish Hill Tracks" published by the Scottish Rights of Way Society. Many of these are long-distance routes and some are just ways through a particular area without an accurately defined line.
Additionally, many, probably most small towns have a network of local paths which are signposted and waymarked but, irritatingly, don't appear on OS maps. The locals know where these are, but if you're visiting or passing through, you have to ask!
There's also rights to wild camp and there's a separate set of definitions about what wild camping is and where you can do it responsibly. Camping on a football pitch or in the middle of a field of crops, for instance, would be irresponsible!
Title: Re: access on foot in scotland- how does it work?
Post by: vizzavona on 07:39:07, 09/11/15
Hello,
The Scottish Rights of Way Society seems now to 'trade' under the name of 'Scotways' nowadays.
When I first started to 'get about' Scotland on foot the cast iron fingerboards of the Society were the possibly, at that time sixty years ago, the only way-markers that you would come across.....e.g. The Pentland Hills area and on many of the great ancient Drovers routes in Perthshire through to the Highlands...although the movement of animals was in the reverse direction but I guess the drovers had to get back home?
Which opens up the question were the Drovers highlanders or were they lowlanders who went North to collect and bring the animals to markets?
Perhaps, as an activity which lasted for several hundred years, maybe one of the longest of any done in GB?   
Title: Re: access on foot in scotland- how does it work?
Post by: barewirewalker on 14:57:42, 10/11/15
This is what I think will be your problem in choosing routes in Scotland, if you are similar to me in wanting a mix variety of walking routes. As I said in my earlier post I had no trouble walking in the Galloway Forrest and climbing the Meyrick. I chose this walk after looking at an on line report by a Stranraer walking group, and found that there is a cliff top walk between Whithorn and Ninian's Cave.


(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u297/barewirewalker/whithorn-ninians_1kpx_zpsc9wntgtk.jpg) (http://)


The path is shown as a grey path and in June it was visible but a bit overgrown. Unlike the Stranraer group I could not do it as a Linear walk, so I went to the car park NX 43123 36668 Kidsdale, where there was a path avoiding the farm to the head of Physgill NX 43265 36500 Glen and a path down to the coast. This a short length of lovely walking, the cove at the end is in itself a worthy destination, even if the cave was not there, but how do you make it a better walk if you wish to explore more of the coast line and not backtrack.


Just west of the cave the map shows a feature called Ladies Steps, but are these a way to the top of the cliff and there is no indication that there is a path at the top. The tide was against us to explore this feature so we back tracked across the cove to the east and followed the cliff top towards Whithorn. After a mile the weather turned foul and we backtracked.


As the map shows there are not PRoW's, but you do have other rights in Scotland and we explored some field margins. Had I had time to do more research, or if I was using this area to demonstrate how a circular walk could be effected I would have checked out Google Earth as this often shows up gateways in the field margins.


The interesting thing on the farmland surrounding Kidsdale the field margins had been sprayed out with a general herbicide that would be inactive, owing to the time lapse indicated by the dead vegetation.


(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u297/barewirewalker/ninian_zps2qhwzbb4.jpg) (http://)


Another point of general geography of coastline agriculture is the positioning of permanent pasture, so crops do not get planted on too exposed fields, if routes are published with these observations then it would have been possible for Mrs BWW and myself as visitors to have worked out a circular route. In the absence of a PRoW network and in an area that suggests that the geography lends itself to good quality circular routes, I believe that this is one of the ways to go in developing a working relationship between agriculture and tourism.


Field margins and field gates are a joint asset.
Title: Re: access on foot in scotland- how does it work?
Post by: barewirewalker on 14:15:27, 11/11/15
The trouble was with my week in Dumfries Galloway was a lack of forward planning owing to it being taken as a last minute booking. This walk has been an object lesson to me but sadly I will not be able to prove my ideas unless I go back.


In hindsight a look at Google Earth could have given me some useful info. I researched the walk as previously described in the time I had but a little extra time might have given me extra confidence to climb a fence and turn it into a circular route. Perhaps this may be useful to others raising the question that the OP has asked.


(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u297/barewirewalker/googlE_text_kidsdale.jpg_zpsjlnojqvc.png) (http://)


The cultivated areas were the field which had flourishing oat crops in them and it is unfortunate that the day the GE pictures were taken there was partial cloud cover. I found that there was a ? Permissive Path from the Car Park leading E around the N of the Kidsdale farm buildings to the head of Physgill Glen.


If I had looked at the above picture I might have marked my map with possible gate locations.
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u297/barewirewalker/whithorn-ninians-gates_1kpx.jpg_zpsbksxpjmb.png) (http://)


Had the weather been more favourable I certainly would have walked as far as Lobbocks and then have followed the field margin N to Smirle Wood.
We turned back, because high winds were giving discomfort to my wife's ears, we did this at the 43 northing.
The presumed marked gates would have given us an alternative route back.


Nowt like hindsight  >:(  Please note as I have marked the gates on the map, I really mean that I have inferred that gates are likely to be at these locations.
Title: Re: access on foot in scotland- how does it work?
Post by: whitehorse on 15:08:43, 11/11/15

Love your suggestion of using google earth- I use it a lot for work but it hadn't crossed my mind to use it for walk planning. looks like it will be really useful for in Scotland.

Interesting too that you mention there was what seemed to be a permissive path. I wonder if this is common in popular areas where residents want to route people away from their properties/farmsteads?
Title: Re: access on foot in scotland- how does it work?
Post by: barewirewalker on 15:57:36, 11/11/15
The car park has the look of "Community work" and the path leads to the path that runs down to St Ninians Cave via Physgill Glen, which has the appearance our better maintained PRoW's would have, the bit I have marked as permissive looks as if it has been allowed to bypass the Farm and House, that is why I called it '? Permissive'.


There is another walk we did on Ben John It would make a good walk as it overlooks the Solway Firth, but the belt of bracken at that time of year made it almost unapproachable from the direction of the only route I found on line. We did turn this climb into a good walk, though, by finding a route from the north side. Hopefully I will post a TR, which may be helpful if you are planning a holiday for next summer.


Spent a great day beach combing near Fleet and walked out to an island that low tide gave an opportunity to reach and spend a couple of hours there.


As the locals say; Most people forget to turn left at Gretna Green when visiting Scotland and that makes a great place to enjoy a quiet holiday.
Title: Re: access on foot in scotland- how does it work?
Post by: agentmancuso on 20:56:43, 11/11/15
I use Google Earth all the time for making waypoints for parking spots and firebreaks.
Title: Re: access on foot in scotland- how does it work?
Post by: Strider on 22:12:15, 11/11/15
Quote
Please note as I have marked the gates on the map, I really mean that I have inferred that gates are likely to be at these locations.

If you look on Google Maps and zoom right in you can see gaps in the walls and vehicle tracks so there is indeed a way from the cliff top path back to the road.

By the way, if the Google maps satellite view is unclear for whatever reason, try Bing maps: http://binged.it/1Pp4Hz2

Access in Scotland is a bit of a double-edged sword....you can go where you like (mostly) the issue is whether you'll find stiles, gates and footbridges where you need them.   A length of pipe insulation is useful for barbed wire/electric topped fences but if you're confronted by a five foot high dry stone wall you may have to just climb over it!
Title: Re: access on foot in scotland- how does it work?
Post by: vizzavona on 06:34:15, 12/11/15
Hello,
Just an observation with reference to the 1:25,000 map in an earlier reply to this topic....re. the 5 metre contour interval used.
The only few maps of this scale that I have and use for the Scottish highlands have the contour interval of 10 metres.
I understand that all the 1:25,000 maps have CI in England. Does anyone know where the change in the CI, 5 into 10, takes place in the lowlands?
Title: Re: access on foot in scotland- how does it work?
Post by: barewirewalker on 09:38:51, 12/11/15
If you look on Google Maps and zoom right in you can see gaps in the walls and vehicle tracks so there is indeed a way from the cliff top path back to the road.

By the way, if the Google maps satellite view is unclear for whatever reason, try Bing maps: http://binged.it/1Pp4Hz2 (http://binged.it/1Pp4Hz2)


Good tip about Bing Maps, didn't know they existed  :-[ , also the photography may be more recent and better quality. In this instance their capture of the Kidsdale farm shows more internal farm tracks.


I have used Google maps mostly for plotting routes in Wales and the West Midlands. Useful for finding parking places as Agent Mancuso mentions, but the greatest weakness in the PRoW system in the rest of the UK is it's rigidity ,especially when the occupiers of land take umbrage at stepping off the righteous way.
Planning 'PRoW Two Step' as I call a skip from one to another across "Private Land" is a delicate art, assessing the quality of field boundary and the level of hedge management is a must, as is knowing where the enemy is likely to be lurking.
Land managers don't do much these days, contractors do most of the work on the land and getting an overall picture of the farm and the farm management is useful.


On line mapping, up to date OS maps, historical maps and aerial views with mapping info is great for widening the scope of route finding and using the terrain to better advantage.

I mention historical maps, because in exploring lost ways I have been surprised how little the position of gates have changed over the years and the features imprinted on the landscape by old routes is often very recognisable and valuable.