The truth about single skin / hybrid tents

[FOX160]

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[FOX160]

I look forward to this.

My concern when people post about these ultralightweight single skin or all mesh inner tents is that someone inexperienced will buy one on the back of a recommendation because they are so light, not knowing that they may not be suitable if they want to use them wild camping on the higher mountains in the UK or in bad weather. I know people do use them in the hills but the you tube videos I've seen show people freezing their b*ll*cks off and looking miserable if the weather isn't great. Let's face it, the warm dry weather we are having at the moment is not normal. Saying that it was really cold on the higher fells in the Lake District on Saturday, maybe 6 degrees and the wind chill made it even colder. I am so pleased we have a double walled tent. People using these single skin/all mesh tents would have to take warmer sleeping bags or extra clothes to keep warm. So the weight saving on the tent is lost. Or perhaps others don't mind being cold?

If your cold then you have the incorrect cloathing/bag/quilt/pad etc to complete the objective.
Simply user error, similar nonsense you hear when people complain the tents fallen down then claim
the tents rubbish, but the tents intact yet the incorrect stakes have been used


We had a great meet recently in Dartmoor
Richard kindly put a short clip together.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=122&v=qU0LHemz2jw#

[Jim Parkin]

I think he's maybe referring to condensation on the inner tent? And I think he's wrong that you need mesh to ensure this. I've had various tents over years with non-mesh inners and all of them have handled condensation on the inner tent fine but all of them, including my fairly meshy TN Coshee have had condensation on the inside of the fly - it's unavoidable as far as I can see. Warm wet breath meets cold waterproof sheet = condensation.


The thing about the ventilation - it has another name - it's called "freezing cold draughts" depending on the weather!

Doesn't it  depend on the temperatures of the fabrics relative to the dew point for the humidity at that location ? 

If you have a single-skin permeable tent (e.g. canvas fly) and it's above the dew point, then the water vapour should pass through without condensing.  If it is impermeable, then this can't happen.  If there is a draft, then the humid air might leave the tent before it can condense.

If it is below the dew point, and its, say a canvas fly, then the water vapour would condense, but the cotton can absorb quite a bit, so there could easily be no visible condensation as it's locked up in the material.  This can't happen with a non-absorbent material, so you get visible condensation building up.  Again ventilation could reduce this. 

If your cold then you have the incorrect cloathing/bag/quilt/pad etc to complete the objective.
Simply user error, similar nonsense you hear when people complain the tents fallen down then claim
the tents rubbish, but the tents intact yet the incorrect stakes have been used


We had a great meet recently in Dartmoor
Richard kindly put a short clip together.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=122&v=qU0LHemz2jw#

I think this is it.

I would say that my main tent (Luxe Hexpeak) is functionally more like a single-skin tent with a deep bathtub groundseheet than a double skin tent, because the inner is mostly mesh (above, about 18") and it is pretty drafty as a result, although it's generally ok when lying dowmn - but you still get more drafts than if it was a solid inner. 

So far, I've camped down to maybe minus 4 to minus 5 and I would have preferred a solid inner at that temperature.  I was OK, but did have an extra silvered sheet that I got to try and reduce the effect of a radiation frost. 

I do get condensation on the flysheet - including ice in winter but with the slope of the fly, it tends to stick to the fly or run down the inside, rather than drip on the inner mesh
 

[richardh1905]

If your cold then you have the incorrect cloathing/bag/quilt/pad etc to complete the objective.

The tent is a factor too, Fox.

[FOX160]

The tent is a factor too, Fox.

Disagree. Roughly 24 years back we camped the first week of August in Grizdale Forest in a Double wall tent and the first 2 nights we kept weakening up around 2am freezing, I went to the shop and didn’t buy a new tent but 2 new sleeping bags has ours was +5 but the temps dropped to 0c Simply user error.


Try using this https://andrewskurka.com/2016/five-star-campsites-part-1-introduction/  would also help if your in a double wall tent

[richardh1905]

@Fox - if you are in a tent that is draughty, then of course it will feel colder than a tent that is not.

[FOX160]

@Fox - if you are in a tent that is draughty, then of course it will feel colder than a tent that is not.

Then you have the wrong tent for the situation you are in or you find a sheltered area to pitch it
Again user error. https://andrewskurka.com/2016/five-star-campsites-part-1-introduction/
I pitched in an open area to see how my https://www.tarptent.com/product/motrail/  would perform on the back of the American hurricanes we was receiving, I lowered the height of the trekking poles to lower the fly to the ground to kill any drafts and got blown about a bit but had taken my minus 4 quilt and yes woken up a few times but I wasn’t cold and the tent was perfectly fine, so I had the right equipment to complete the objective.
Admittedly I should have found a sheltered spot/area to get out of the winds but that wasn’t my objective at the said time.
Now if I was facing winds from an Hurricane in July in this County I wouldn’t be in a 3season tent but in 4 season tent to complete my objective.


Moans and groans of persons with the wrong equipment to complete their objective.

[richardh1905]

I'm not the one who is moaning, Fox.

[richardh1905]

Now if I was facing winds from an Hurricane in July in this County I wouldn’t be in a 3season tent but in 4 season tent to complete my objective.

So the tent is a factor, after all.

[FOX160]

So the tent is a factor, after all.

User error, nothing wrong with the tent !
The user isn’t taking the correct equipment to complete the objective

Classic scenario it’s Summer and it’s windy but I am wearing a t shirt i ask why am I Cold ?
https://andrewskurka.com/2016/five-star-campsites-part-1-introduction/

[richardh1905]

Whatever....
Far too nice a day to get involved in silly semantics. Mull Head beckons...

[April]

If your cold then you have the incorrect cloathing/bag/quilt/pad etc to complete the objective.

So when you say incorrect clothing, you mean you have to take more and probably heavier clothing to compensate because your tent is too cold and draughty. Rather defeats the "objective" if you ask me, the weight of the warmer/extra clothing will be heavier than a suitable inner for this country.

https://andrewskurka.com/2016/five-star-campsites-part-1-introduction/

This link seems to be about camping in the United States, how is this relevant for people wanting to camp in this country? The climate over there is totally different to ours.

We are still waiting for the trip reports or info about where/how many times you have used your hybrid tent and in what conditions each time. Pity you weren't out with us last night in torrential rain and strong winds. It would have been a wee bit draughty and damp for your tent 

Have a look at this video from Daveswildcamping
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX2aLR7VBAA

He calls his tent a drip coffin  Fox this man has years of experience wild camping in all conditions. Not user error this, he actually knows what he is doing, his knowledge is based on his experience going out camping and using equipment and not theoretical like your "experience" seems to be.

[richardh1905]

Whatever....
Far too nice a day to get involved in silly semantics. Mull Head beckons...

Mull Head Cliffs a few hours ago. Raining now!


Now where were we? Ah yes; tent choice being a factor in how warm or otherwise you are...


Explain this to me, Fox; if you are in a single skin tent on a cold and wet night, how do you ventilate enough to stop your tent becoming a 'drip coffin', without letting in a lot of cold air; thereby turning the tent into a chilly wind tunnel?


I can just seal my budget tunnel tent; any condensation that forms on the inside of the outer just runs down onto the grass whilst I am nice and snug within the inner.


And why bother with a single skin tent at all, when many modern tents with inners are so light nowadays?

[FOX160]

So when you say incorrect clothing, you mean you have to take more and probably heavier clothing to compensate because your tent is too cold and draughty. Rather defeats the "objective" if you ask me, the weight of the warmer/extra clothing will be heavier than a suitable inner for this country.

This link seems to be about camping in the United States, how is this relevant for people wanting to camp in this country? The climate over there is totally different to ours.

We are still waiting for the trip reports or info about where/how many times you have used your hybrid tent and in what conditions each time. Pity you weren't out with us last night in torrential rain and strong winds. It would have been a wee bit draughty and damp for your tent 

Have a look at this video from Daveswildcamping
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX2aLR7VBAA

He calls his tent a drip coffin  Fox this man has years of experience wild camping in all conditions. Not user error this, he actually knows what he is doing, his knowledge is based on his experience going out camping and using equipment and not theoretical like your "experience" seems to be.

Fail to understand how you don’t understand regarding cloathing, I don’t take any cloathing or quilt that I will not be warm in and certainly will not kid myself with a lesser rating of equipment to complete my objective, I only take the correct cloathing where I am and don’t over cloath as that would be more weight to carry than needed.

American camp sites yep we have similar soills within our Forests and believe we have hard packed soil together with rocks and open skies and vermin, so fail to acknowledge your comment.

Regarding rain we’ll we has a group meet which I tagged in Dartmoor on the Friday 20th last week hammered down for 6hrs I slept fine and Condensation was like wetting your finger and draw it across your
hand. The tent was excellent as the day before I nearly had all the fly clipped up.

If I was out last night,  the tent would be fine just like it was last Friday.

Trip reports never do others do the write up plus don’t have social media nor Fr/ U Tube accounts

The https://www.yamamountaingear.com/swiftline-2P/  only had it nearly 2months
Done weekends only so far around Essex been great including 4day trip in Dartmoor and worked really well
even though of the changing weather.

Firstly the person has not set the Altaplex tent up correctly, he as the rear of the fly pinned directly to the ground, the tent is designed to be vented and breeze to flow through all round. It’s a tent I wouldn’t buy especially having an vestibule near 8”inch gap between the ground to underside of the fly. I have known people to pack up and go home and also know someone that had his Duplex tear in the wind, also this tent is no longer in manufacture.
Again user error.

You may want to send him this https://www.keithfoskett.com/no-solvent-required-the-zpacks-altaplex-shelter-review/
Now this guy I would listen to.

How to set up the Altaplex.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JFObVp43zgU

[April]

Fox, you are completely missing the point I (and others) have been making. If you were out with us last night you would have had to bring more/warmer clothing/gear (more weight) to keep warm than we had to. Your tent is not as warm as ours, simple as that. You will never convince us a hybrid tent made for the US market would be what we want to use here in the UK up north. We go out every weekend just about in all weathers, we like a proper tent 

What temperature was it last Friday in Dartmoor? Much warmer than it was in the Lake District last night. You would have been very cold in your tent if you had been with us but you will not take this on board.

What is your objective? You keep mentioning this without saying what it is.

I won't be sending Dave any tips or advice from you, your posts suggest you don't do very much camping