walking guide/what is needed

[snowslider]

As this was moved to general I see no reason not to make a more general discussion of this.

I would be very surprised if the qualifications listed by Scarlet are legally required in this country.

That's right, as I tried to explain there's no legal requirement to hold a particular award in the UK as the law stands today. Nor, I think, any prospect in the foreseeable future that it will be required.

The law in the UK is reactive in this respect. Basically I mean after an incident if the leader doesn't hold an award it will be a factor in establishing liability. It's like having a plumber coming to do work that goes wrong and your house blows up, if he wasn't properly qualified that'll be a factor in working out who's liable. It's not that the UK doesn't have jobs where you're required to be have a particular qualification, not just anyone can call themselves a doctor or lawyer for example and these are "established professions". That means they're a profession, that's a much misused term but has a fairly precise meaning, and that you've got to have the professional status to carry the activity out by law.

Professional basically really means an entry standard, a status you can lose and a requirement to take continuing training. So, a doctor has to keep current and can be struck off for example. It also means there's a professional body looking at standards that people can complain to ,like reporting your doctor to the GMC and so on.

But the barriers to moving mountain leadership to the same basis are quite large. The primary qualifications used day to day are, (sorry about the alphabet soup), ML, ML(W), WGL, SPA & CWLA which are all of the highest standard but none of which are actual professional qualifications. The holder basically met the standard on the day and that's enough.

There is now an organisation called the MLTA which is separate from the awarding bodies like MLTE, MLTUK etc. Members of the MLTA hold one of the above qualifications, or are registered for them, and the MLTA acts as a professional body. It's not perfect but it's a start. For the sake of balance I should point out there's a body called the Institute for Outdoor Learning (IOL) which does much the same.

Those who hold senior awards, IML and IFMGA, basically pass a series of tests but have no status without membership of a professional body. That's basically having a carnet which is issued each year and requires you've kept up to date with your first aid, other professional training, are insured and haven't been struck off. In some countries it's the law you've got that carnet, France is a good example and the French have similar requirements for plumbers or electricians so it's a mindset that's firmly embedded in life there.

I also echo Snowslider's doubts about UK companies operating in Europe with so-called 'leaders' try to get round the established local requirements. In the Dolomites, I was surprised that these 'leaders' were taking groups along very very airy trails with sheer drops to one side. Somone could get 'gripped' and be unable to move - the leader had no responsibility legally for their safety as he/she was not a 'guide', wouldn't have been carrying a 'confidence' rope.  I tried leading a couple of times for a well known UK company years ago, walking and XC skiing, and felt very unsupported - just left to get on with it even when one client had a heart attack. Absolutely not a free holiday! 

Interesting experience! I know some off my colleagues get quite heated about this and see it in fairly black & white terms. I think the law is probably paramount, so in France there's a law and if you're not qualified then you shouldn't be there. But, I do think there might be grey areas.

There seems a world of difference between an unqualified leader taking some customers on the Tour du Mt Blanc and the same leader taking a group for a stroll around the vineyards of Bordeaux. And I think we have to recognise while some companies aren't using qualified leaders that they're also not engaged in very serious activity.

I also think we've got to recognise some companies are pretty good and their leaders are fine, I worked for World Challenge as an ML and aspirant IML personally. The recruiting & vetting they do is great and they love ex-military guys for the original poster. Practically, there's only a couple of hundred IML's, there's not enough to go round, World Challenge send out a couple of hundred exped's each year, so they've got to use ML's. And, unlike your experience, someone like WCE have amazing support, you've got beacons & sat phones and you know if there's an issue they'll be someone coming to help, probably some guy who used to abseil into embassies for a living 

Italy is a slight problem, they've no representation on the UIMLA (Union of International Mountain Leader Associations), my understanding is that they had a local country award but that the awarding body lost their mandate and it's left the situation a mess. Which is odd as they've got some pretty draconian laws about mountain safety in the winter. One of the companies operating there has a particular issue as they offer via feratta, the accepted situation here is that a guide is required to address the problems of vertical rescue although clearly an MIA would be fine but MIA is not recognised outside the UK. Only UIMLA & IFMGA leaders/guides have a qualification accepted outside country of issue.

Don't get me started on Nordic skiing, that's a minefield  I want to take people on the cross border GTJ, I have a basic qualification as a ski instructor and the Swiss are happy that as an IML I can take people into that environment but I've still got to sort the French bit out. I might be able to add it to my French carte professionale or I might need to take another qual for nordic with does the technical element on telemark which I'm hopeless at 

the leader had no responsibility legally for their safety as he/she was not a 'guide',

oh heck  I can't let that by  & we all hoped I'd finished by now..

No doubt they say that but it's tosh I'm afraid. In countries where the legal system is based on the Napoleonic Code there's a strong concept of responsibility. The responsible person is the one that appears to "the responsible person" whether they hold qualifications or not. So, if there's a guy holding the map and pointing the way, he's the leader and he's responsible. There's case law for this, a recent case in Austria (3 months suspended sentence for forgetting beacon) and in France (Cour d’appel de Grenoble- arręt du 21 octobre 2002...). I can't instantly quote case law for Italy but I think there is some.

It's suggested this may be the case in the UK although there's no case I know of but I've heard insurers have said they would ignore qualifications when identifying responsible people and suing them or prosecuting for negligence. In the UK the fact someone led a group without a qualification hasn't stopped them being sent to prison.

[samveg]

Can I say something as one of those "newbies" who has been walking for years but on low level stuff. (I live in E Anglia.)
 
Firstly if I was going to go on a guided holiday in the mountains  I would look for qualifcations and check them out. Mapman is probably better trained than many formally qualified leaders but the point from the customer's point of view is that he needs to be able to prove it formally. From a business point of view it seems to me time well spent getting them, and I would have thought that there must be some form of crossover or credit available for work done in the army.
 
Secondly, one of the reasons I come here is for information. I realise that there are differences of opinion amongst the enthusiasts who post - viewranger vs GPS springs to mind, and that's fine it helps me make decisions by seeing the pros and cons thrashed out by others. However in this instance accuracy is important. "It seems to me" and "I would think" are not good enough. I hope no-one finds that rude it is not intended to be.

[snowslider]

Can I say something as one of those "newbies" who has been walking for years but on low level stuff. (I live in E Anglia.)
 
Firstly if I was going to go on a guided holiday in the mountains  I would look for qualifcations and check them out. Mapman is probably better trained than many formally qualified leaders but the point from the customer's point of view is that he needs to be able to prove it formally. From a business point of view it seems to me time well spent getting them, and I would have thought that there must be some form of crossover or credit available for work done in the army.

blimey, that was succinct, why couldn't I say that? 

I think you've hit the major points there. If you're going to run a business then these are exactly the things to think about.

You're also correct to think there's a crossover or credit. Sort of  Anyone can apply for exemption from training and make a case they've got enough experience & that it's not necessary. A wise man, and well known guide, told me that I might get exemption based on leading experience, other qualifications and being a former MRT guy but that at assessment you might get a hard time. I took the training and his advice because if someone in the know is giving you hint about assessments you ought to sit up and listen.

I loved it, it's the most fun part of the whole process and I can't believe anyone could do it and not learn something. I've also been a trainer on courses where we've had ex-army & marines guys and they've been really excellent candidates but it's different and they've learnt stuff as have we as trainers.

 

Secondly, one of the reasons I come here is for information. I realise that there are differences of opinion amongst the enthusiasts who post - viewranger vs GPS springs to mind, and that's fine it helps me make decisions by seeing the pros and cons thrashed out by others. However in this instance accuracy is important. "It seems to me" and "I would think" are not good enough. I hope no-one finds that rude it is not intended to be.

good point, well made.

[One F in Foreigner]

The law in the UK is reactive in this respect. Basically I mean after an incident if the leader doesn't hold an award it will be a factor in establishing liability. It's like having a plumber coming to do work that goes wrong and your house blows up, if he wasn't properly qualified that'll be a factor in working out who's liable. It's not that the UK doesn't have jobs where you're required to be have a particular qualification, not just anyone can call themselves a doctor or lawyer for example and these are "established professions". That means they're a profession, that's a much misused term but has a fairly precise meaning, and that you've got to have the professional status to carry the activity out by law.
 

If the plumber who happens to blow up yer house was working on gas installation(s) then he/she must be trained, certificated and on the Gas Safe Register - it is a legal requirement. I reckon they could probably be liable as well 

[altirando]

Interesting point worth remembering from Snowslider. So it is not just qualified guides assumed to be legally responsible in Europe?  I have wondered too if, say, coming on someone I didn't know in an awkward situation - using my previous example, someone who had ventured along one of those ledge paths in the Dolomites with huge exposure and become fixed with fear and vertigo - if I tried to help and the person still had a fall or accident, would I be blamed and held responsible?  Or held responsible if I didn't help? I'm surprised - again - that Telemark proficiency is necessary even for a basic nordic qualification. Pointless for loipe skiing, and on offtrail skiing through the forests. I've done the Vercors traverse and the most critical requirement was finding the only shelter on the plateau in a blizzard. I suspect the Jura traverse is somewhat easier if longer.

[altirando]

Just had a terrible thought. On the Vercors traverse I was the one holding the map and compass. Surely I wasn't responsible for the safety of the other two entirely competent people? (It was a great relief as the snow eased in the fading light to glimpse the tiny summer farmstead directly ahead!)

[snowslider]

If the plumber who happens to blow up yer house was working on gas installation(s) then he/she must be trained, certificated and on the Gas Safe Register - it is a legal requirement. I reckon they could probably be liable as well 

OK, if the plumber blew your house up before 2009 or blew it up using non-gas appliance  That'll be a good example of how a law would work. You say they're trained and certified, they'll also be a body the customer can complain to and some requirement to keep up to date with changing technology and regulation.

Very hard to retro-fit that for mountain leaders. The first thing that would happen is the thousands & thousands of ML's wouldn't be able work without joining some new body and taking more training. And I think that's a bit unfair, they took ML on the basis of how it's run now so it's moving the goalposts, after the match is over, in a big way.

Interesting point worth remembering from Snowslider. So it is not just qualified guides assumed to be legally responsible in Europe?  I have wondered too if, say, coming on someone I didn't know in an awkward situation - using my previous example, someone who had ventured along one of those ledge paths in the Dolomites with huge exposure and become fixed with fear and vertigo - if I tried to help and the person still had a fall or accident, would I be blamed and held responsible?  Or held responsible if I didn't help?

If you follow the link you can see some experts have questioned the Austrian verdict. So how serious this is for groups of peers is debatable. But, you can quickly see some situations where it's an issue or not, eg :

- a UK tour company paying for someone to go to the Alps, providing meals & board, that person giving a briefing each day on routes, being there for a few weeks while multiple guests come & go, being out with the guests on the hill and so on. The tour company will have advertised for someone with experience of trekking and/or the area. That person is the most experienced in the group, they're clearly acting as a leader and they're receiving renumeration, even if it's only "in kind". Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, that person is the leader. They're liable if there's an accident and breaking the law if they're in area where you're required to be qualified

- a group of friends, walked together for years, on that day one of them planned the route. perfectly reasonable

That's why people are surprised at the Austrian verdict, it seems to fall into the second camp a bit more.

Playing out your scenario, you'd probably be just fine. You don't really have a general duty of care for random people as such. If I strolled along, logo'ed up to the eye-teeth, then it's assumed I've got a general duty of care, even then it comes second to my specific responsibility for my clients. And no one has a duty of care where it places their own life at risk and that goes for me as well.

You can play around with all kinds of variations on that. An IML or guide are professionals, regardless of any law they've some professional responsibilities. An ML isn't a professional in the same way but they're not [censored] and irresponsible. And no one needs a badge to have the compassion to go to someone else's aid.

An interesting point in Europe is that most people have first aid training, in Switzerland from the military maybe and elsewhere it's required for the driving test. So if they find an inured person you might argue they're obliged to help.

Even when there's no other legal sanction then coroners aren't afraid to point the finger. I would think if a coroner named you as responsible for a death the family & insurers would have a pretty good civil case against you. Here's an example of what coroners can say : http://swissmountainleader.com/uploads/private-eye.pdf

Pointless for loipe skiing, and on offtrail skiing through the forests. I've done the Vercors traverse and the most critical requirement was finding the only shelter on the plateau in a blizzard. I suspect the Jura traverse is somewhat easier if longer.

That's what the Swiss say basically, being an IML is good enough as the challenges are about being in the mountains in winter. You should try the Jura, think of the Cairngorm on a bad day for weather. Super-cooled air having travelled over all of France, villages in the Swiss & French side record the lowest temperatures of habitable places for either country, as low as -42 and temperatures below -20 are common with biting winds. Fantastic 

[Fleegle]

Just had a terrible thought. On the Vercors traverse I was the one holding the map and compass. Surely I wasn't responsible for the safety of the other two entirely competent people? (It was a great relief as the snow eased in the fading light to glimpse the tiny summer farmstead directly ahead!)

That could only be determined, by how desperate someonewas to "blame and claim".
 
I fully expect any Mountain or Walking Group Leader, who is operating as a business, should be fully 'reasonably' responsible for where they take their clients. However, in my book, there has to be a level of responsibility taken by the clients and others in the group.
 
I think its very sad, that as a society, we've gone down that route. It almost takes the fun out of walking or climbing with friends.
 
However, safety does not start and stop with the ML/WGL, in the adult world, it is everyones responsibility. Where minors are concerned, then yes, I personally would expect the ML/WGL to be fully responsible.

[snowslider]

That could only be determined, by how desperate someonewas to "blame and claim".

Sorry, that's not correct, it's not really a consideration at all. altirando asked a specific question about the Vercors. It's purely and solely a matter for the police, in that case the PHGM. In the event of any incident the guide or leader involved would be routinely arrested to allow the French legal process to proceed with their investigation. As a society they feel professionals are accountable for what they do which is understandable I'd say.

 

[altirando]

This has become an educational thread. I think we all might be a little naive, assuming a sort of mutual goodwill. The Austrian incident is rather specific. A paid guide would automatically be responsible for ensuring everyone in a group had the transceiver switched on, but in a group of friends surely everyone is responsible for their own safety. That poor guy is going to be blaming himself for the rest of his life for not reminding his wife - perhaps there had been an incident earlier when he had reminded his wife, and she had made a sharp reply? I am trying to think of an equivalent non-skiing situation.  Perhaps not checking your companion has the climbing harness correctly tightened up, or is not properly tied in.  These have to be personal responsibilities unless someone is a complete novice.  I suppose snowshoeing on steep ground needs avalanche gear - I see Hilary Sharp rents them out to her clients, very expensive.
 
I have had the GTJ guidebook sitting on my shelves for several years, and there is a French company that prebooks accommodation on the lower route.  Anyone interested?  I had already decided that March is a better time than January, as the Jura is the first wall those cold northern winds hit after the north French plain.  There might be some business for Snowslider if he ever gets his full qualifications.
 
Just going back to that original query, I suspect that the sort of people wanting a guide in this country are not wanting to venture into 'mountain leader' territory - they are more likely to be looking for someone who knows all the local history and beauty spots rather than an ex-military man.
 
Just referring to my very brief experience as a paid-by-free-holiday leader, there is a problem of lack of authority. Some of my walking lot in Austria insisted on wandering off a flagmarked route on a glacier on the grounds that they could see footprints.  I told them in the evening that if they chose to walk with the group they had to stay with it as I would be blamed for any accident. Next thing I knew they had phoned the UK and complained about being abandoned.  Definitely no more commercial leading for me - why should I be bothered with idiots?

[snowslider]

This has become an educational thread. I think we all might be a little naive, assuming a sort of mutual goodwill. The Austrian incident is rather specific. A paid guide would automatically be responsible for ensuring everyone in a group had the transceiver switched on, but in a group of friends surely everyone is responsible for their own safety. That poor guy is going to be blaming himself for the rest of his life for not reminding his wife - perhaps there had been an incident earlier when he had reminded his wife, and she had made a sharp reply? I am trying to think of an equivalent non-skiing situation.  Perhaps not checking your companion has the climbing harness correctly tightened up, or is not properly tied in.  These have to be personal responsibilities unless someone is a complete novice. 

two different issues really, there's the situation for people who are leaders or acting as them and then for private individuals. Private individuals needn't worry too much but you can see outliers in that.

I suppose snowshoeing on steep ground needs avalanche gear - I see Hilary Sharp rents them out to her clients, very expensive.

It does, Hilary did provide it to clients but has said there's a French law that prevents her from doing it now. I'm not familiar with that law and I'm happy we're ok here so I we provide it to clients where needed. I'm also an avalanche geek so we do training in the use of it and the use of formal risk reduction frameworks such as Munter, 3x3, Niveotest & so on. I'm a geek so we do electro-magnetism and near-field radio applications as well until the clients eyes glaze over. More importantly, I do safe travel how to avoid dangerous slopes. Snowshoeing isn't a gravity sport like skiing after all.

Partly an exchange rate issue, if we ask clients to hire snowshoes at 30 chf a day and the same for shovel/probe/transceiver then it's expensive for people.
 

I have had the GTJ guidebook sitting on my shelves for several years, and there is a French company that prebooks accommodation on the lower route.  Anyone interested?  I had already decided that March is a better time than January, as the Jura is the first wall those cold northern winds hit after the north French plain.  There might be some business for Snowslider if he ever gets his full qualifications.

You might struggle with the snow in March sadly. Here's my blog when I did it : http://swissmountainleader.com/wp/category/treks_routes/grande-traversee-jura/ & the TJS & GTN is there somewhere.

Just going back to that original query, I suspect that the sort of people wanting a guide in this country are not wanting to venture into 'mountain leader' territory - they are more likely to be looking for someone who knows all the local history and beauty spots rather than an ex-military man.

maybe so, ML etc have an environment element, some people make a big deal of ex-military guys being weak with that. Sounds like nonsense to me  It's no more or less a problem than for anyone else. I was deferred on both my winter & summer environment for IML 

Just referring to my very brief experience as a paid-by-free-holiday leader, there is a problem of lack of authority. Some of my walking lot in Austria insisted on wandering off a flagmarked route on a glacier on the grounds that they could see footprints.  I told them in the evening that if they chose to walk with the group they had to stay with it as I would be blamed for any accident. Next thing I knew they had phoned the UK and complained about being abandoned.  Definitely no more commercial leading for me - why should I be bothered with idiots?

That's a problem for anyone. I love working with youth groups and get a good relationship with them, but I've watched entirely competent leaders get the "student teacher" treatment from a bunch of 15 year olds. For adults, it comes with experience, I've never had a client drop out or go off. When I work on the GR20 you watch the French guides start the route with 15 people and end with 4 (seriously). Last time I got three people with a fear of heights over it.

There's a stress leading but it's rewarding (not in money terms), at the end of the day, it's mostly exactly like anyone here thinks it is. Read that private eye bit, it's the level of things you're expected to deal with.

[Fleegle]

Sorry, that's not correct, it's not really a consideration at all. altirando asked a specific question about the Vercors.

I must apologise, I had overlooked that bit.   
 
But, the basics still remain, certainly for this country, that if someone is desperate enough, whatever the reason, if there is the chance of a claim, especially with these law firms offering no win no fee deals.

[snowslider]

I must apologise, I had overlooked that bit.   
 
But, the basics still remain, certainly for this country, that if someone is desperate enough, whatever the reason, if there is the chance of a claim, especially with these law firms offering no win no fee deals.

For the UK the points you make get into the area of informed consent and contributory negligence. I think a lot of it's just conjecture at this point, there's not been a lot of cases.

My opinion may differ from people in the UK, I live in a country where even if there's blame there's no claim. I was left crippled with an RSI problem by my last employer and then made redundant, I got nothing and paid my way through IML. So I'd rather the odd person got a couple of grand for slipping on a wet floor when they should have been careful than the alternative. There's got to be a happy medium somewhere 

[snowslider]

Just going back to that original query, I suspect that the sort of people wanting a guide in this country are not wanting to venture into 'mountain leader' territory - they are more likely to be looking for someone who knows all the local history and beauty spots rather than an ex-military man.

I keep smiling about that, that's exactly how a lot of work with adults is. It's not all hanging onto a icy ridge with the full fury of an arctic storm in your face, your eyelids frozen while you lower a client from a frozen rope clasped in your teeth because your finger are too frostbitten. Actually it's never like that, unless you're a WML in which case it's always like that.

Mostly, it's looking for edelweiss and a good place for lunch 

[Fleegle]

For the UK the points you make get into the area of informed consent and contributory negligence. I think a lot of it's just conjecture at this point, there's not been a lot of cases.

My opinion may differ from people in the UK, I live in a country where even if there's blame there's no claim. I was left crippled with an RSI problem by my last employer and then made redundant, I got nothing and paid my way through IML. So I'd rather the odd person got a couple of grand for slipping on a wet floor when they should have been careful than the alternative. There's got to be a happy medium somewhere 

I think largely you're right, though I've seen some successful attempts by the blame and claim brigade, along with some nice failures.
 
But, it does make you think.