Walking Forum
Main Boards => Gear => Topic started by: NeilC on 13:26:15, 17/12/20
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I managed to burn my down jacket standing too close to a chiminea.
I've been looking at down jackets but also wondering if maybe this time to go for a synthetic on. Maybe they've come on over the years and pack down better and can compete with down?
Anybody got any experiences with the newer down-mimicking insulation like Thermoball or whatever?
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The great advantage with a synthetic material, is that if the jacket gets wet, then the insulation still retains most of its thermal properties, and it will dry out very quickly.
There is always the ethical issues surrounding down feathers, with a lot of companies claiming to source their down feathers from a reputable source, where no ill treatment of birds has taken place.
Few potential customers would challenge a manufacturer on their claims of using ethically sourced down.
I know its a dangerous thing to claim by a company, that their down comes from a reputable source, and however trustworthy a company may appear, i would still have a slight apprehension in trusting any company who made such a claim.
I own both types of jacket, a Montane down jacket, which i bought second hand and a new Craghoppers Synthetic thermal hooded jacket.
Both jackets are equally warm, but the synthetic jacket dries incredibly quickly, whilst the Down jacket takes a fair bit longer.
If i was going out specifically to buy a top end winter jacket, i think i would go down the synthetic route, as theres never that nagging doubt of what if i get soaked to the skin, and there are some impressive fully synthetic jackets on the market.
Its up to you, but personally i would go synthetic, as both materials provide equal measures of comfort.
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There's quite a good guide to both types and examples on the 'www.outdoorgearlab.com' site, worth a look.
Personally, I would choose synthetic over down for the stated reasons (works when wet etc) but in my case, my son and daughter in law bought me a down jacket over a year ago so I do make the effort to use it. However, I don't use it when actually hiking, I just put it on when around my tent, its good for standing around in and is especially useful to me when I first get up in the morning. I also wear it inside my sleeping quilt if I get cold at night. I prefer my synthetic jacket when hiking, I believe it's better at dealing with perspiration than my down one and better suited to layering.
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Thanks for the replies
I don't think I've ever worn my down jacket whilst actually walking. It's main use is a throw on when I've stopped or in camp. but the ability to do so, or wear it around town when required could come in handy, hence the consideration of synthetic. I do value the light weight and compressibility of my old down jacket.
I now try to avoid Chinese down for ethical reasons but to be completely honest, I'm not vegan, or even a vegetarian. Given I'm responsible for the frankly horrific treatment of farm animals for food, I can't get too worked up about the down. I'll avoid the obviously dodgy stuff but I'm not so bothered as to investigate supply chains and promises. So I'm happy to buy a down jacket (from a responsible supplier) if it better suits my needs.
Talking about waterproofing - has anyone got any hydrophobic down products? I washed a cheap down sleeping bag in the Nikwax Downproof stuff and that does see off tent condensation rather well but never had the proper factory treated stuff in a jacket and been rained on. Would be interested in hearing from anyone who has. Is it for real or a useless gimmick?
I've been given a couple of hundred quid to blow so that would be my top end. My old down jacket was like 30 quid from Decathlon and did the the job.
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Dont want to sound like i'm boasting but I'm fortunate to have four jackets. 3 down and 1 synthetic
An old old Rab down jacket which spends its life in a wardrobe
A ME Annapruna down jacket i use when i know it's not going to rain/snow on skiing hols, evening camp etc
A RAB Alpine microlight down which i take with me when walking
And a ME Lightlight synthetic for day to day use eg walking the dog (a nice warm jacket, recieved plenty of abuse and still looks good)
I prefere the synthetics only for the reason if they get wet they dry quicker
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In my personal experience once I bought a windproof jacket how to keep worm became a whole new thought process. I find that my best combination for most of my walking is baselayer, my walking shirt (not essential, I just like to wear a shirt) a synthetic jacket and my windproof. If it rains my waterproof jacket on top. I have considered buying a softshell as well but I just can't make up my mind about it.
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If it is just for static use then down is the way to go, however we're at the point where hydrophobic down/synth mixed are equitable to 650+ fill power which is pretty good really. Don't get me wrong, synth isn't bad, but for me if you're only wearing it when static I wouldn't be able to justify the pack space. If you're serious about wearing it about town a lot then maybe reconsider that.
I'll throw a 2p in for recommending Sub Zero (a British company) as a solid option for decent jackets. Have a trekking jacket from them and it was the most fill power (850+ down) for a solid price, and at least for me when I"m carrying gear 90% of the time I want it to be packable and super warm when I actually use it.
https://sub-zero-store.myshopify.com/collections/mens-jackets/products/mens-lightweight-down-hoody
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Unless I've missed it I haven't seen WEIGHT mentioned in this discussion!
My old Snugpak Sleeka synthetic insulated jacket is 691g. The last time I looked, new ones were 780g.
My Haglofs LIM Essens down jacket is 203g. Quite a difference, eh?
The synthetic one is carried on day walks in the colder months, the down one was bought specifically for backpacking. Both are put on when I'm static, i.e. stopped for a lunch break. I will walk in the first when it is particularly cold but I've never walked wearing the second, which is mostly used while wild camping.
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A British company but items made in Hungary. I had to buy my sleeping quilt from Cumulus, Poland. Cumulus UK doesn't make or supply them to people in the UK and Cumulus Poland is not 'allowed' to compete with them here in the UK or supply their products here to the UK. I presume is the same today? So my Polish item was supplied to me from a store in Slovenia and delivered to my door by a German company. If I was a real political enthusiast in 2021 would I really buy a product knowing it was made in Poland or made Hungary? This general subject area has interested me since a campaign years ago by the Daily Mirror to 'buy British' (which failed) and from watching the TV series 'The Onedin Line.' It bought home to me issues about Capitalism and the recognition that no matter how something is advertised all may not be what it might appear to be, where do things come from, who makes them and so on, who benefits, who loses and so on.
I've never seen the brand before so I wonder how its products would compare and contrast against the trade names that we know already like Rab, etc?
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Cumulus are decent and quite well regarded. Used to have somewhat poor customer service (presumably the people doing the emails didn't have great english) but they appear to have sorted that. Their bags are decent at least and they've moved more into the down apparel market over the last 2-3 years more strongly.
Unfortunately I don't know of many British companies which operate in the same price range with British origin products, although at least they're paying their taxes within the UK rather than dropping another few figures to the faceless Amazon corp.
If you're serious about focusing on something UK made I'd look at PHD Designs who make them in the UK and tend to do expedition clothing, maybe Crux (though I believe they're Australian). However you can expect to pay around twice the price for a similar product.
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I've had a Montane Prism jacket for some years sized to go over my winter layers when I stop for lunch etc. Used last Sunday in cold and wet weather. It weighs 455 gms. More recently, I bought a Decathlon Down jacket which is lighter at 360 in a large size and packs down smaller. (bargain at £50).Too wet to take it out with me unless it's going to be cold and dry. If I could afford only one I'd go for synthetic.
Dave
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I use a thermoball synthetic jacket and it is great, very light indeed but warm when needed. I have also washed it several times and nothing went wrong.
I mainly use it as a midlayer if very cold, or to warm up when I stop walking.
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Really depends on expected use, which is why I have a variety.
My go-to down jacket is a Mountain Equipment Lightline (https://amzn.to/3mxcuxm) I've had for over 15 years. Brilliant in cold dry like Finland or a crisp British winter's day with minimal exertion. Also superb as a throw-on to recover after getting very cold (eg. falling in a river). I've even worn it indoors doing desk work in winter when heating broken.
For cold and wet work, then Buffalo Special Six (https://amzn.to/3rg8ftw) does the job brilliantly. I have a hood for mine, which adds to the protection. Used it for early 20 years now and still going strong (though they replaced a zip for me after it got broken putting it on a casualty). Got some friendly stick from an instructor at one of my children's birthday parties for it being old-fashioned and how everyone he knew were wearing modern lightweight things - guess which one of us had to keep stopping to drink hot tea...
Finally, as a general purpose extra layer year-round, I go with Paramo Torres (https://amzn.to/3raVL6F). Only had it for about 5 years so far. Not as warm as the Lightline but copes well with heavy rain.
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Got some friendly stick from an instructor at one of my children's birthday parties for it being old-fashioned and how everyone he knew were wearing modern lightweight things - guess which one of us had to keep stopping to drink hot tea...
Sounds like a birthday party with a difference! ???
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Sounds like a birthday party with a difference! ???
It was basically bushcraft. In the pouring rain. In February. With a bunch of 9 year olds.
They loved it. She has a reputation for fun parties - that one was preceded by climbing/caving and succeeded by raft building.
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I know this comment maybe not help the OP question, but I like to purchase British, whenever I can. Sadly, in the UK buying outdoor clothing for the general public is limited, without paying a high end price. Though, sometimes I have no quibbles about that, as long as it's quality.
Many rave about ME stuff especially the Lhotse, but that's made in the far east.
I have just purchased a Cumulus Endurance down jacket, ok it's Polish, but I suppose they know a bit about cold weather!
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I wonder what criteria would be used to decide if something is British or not? Is it also worth the effort involved?
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I'd go synthetic because we live in the land of the damp and rain and I know I'd get it wet at some point, but it depends how careful and particular you are (which if you've already burnt one...)
The montane ones are good, got the missus one and it feels really nice.
British made... Alpkit? Or is only some of their stuff made here?
I have to say though, and this will probably make me very unpopular, when I visited their shop in the peaks I was actually a bit underwhelmed.
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Alpkit is generally solid kit but some of it is obviously rebranded imports. Frankly though 'British companies' do not have to mean British made, as some equipment just isn't economical to make here and Chinese tooling has come forward leaps and bounds when it comes to fabrics.
If you are buying jackets, pots and pans, basic stove etc Alpkit are great. I met a guy in the fells who picked up about 1.5k worth of kit from them in one go for a winter mountaineering trip and he seemed fairly happy with them. Not sure what you mean by 'underwhelmed', I walk into any outdoors shop and it's much of the same stuff - waterproofs, softshells, insulated jackets, piles of rucksacks and all the gubbins to fill them with. The less I need the less I'm excited about going around gear shops, spend more time in the book section these days!
If you're on the fence a Cumulus Climashield is probably one of the better jackets, and Apex is a better material than Primaloft if you'd like it to be an active piece for winter use.
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I find that the difficulty I have is trying to understand all of the synthetic insulation types that firms advertise, for example, Thermoball??? I remember when it came out loads of people were writing that it was going to make Down redundant, it now seems to have slipped in a product backwater??
I have a thin Aklpkit jacket but I wouldn't have the confidence to buy anything else yet, I've read loads of reviews about high and low priced items, and when I've bought them they have often proved to be second-rate anyway!
In my experience, my £250 waterproof vs. my £20 waterproof, my £60 Poncho vs. my £10 poncho, my £150 boots vs. my £65 boots, my £120 bivvy vs. my £50 bivvy. I'd like to think I'm wiser now but am I?
The other problem for me is when I'm hiking and camping I can become supersensitive to the 'quality' or not of an item, or find that I've bought someting that's great for 10 miles but proves to be a letdown after 100 miles!
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Alpkit is generally solid kit but some of it is obviously rebranded imports. Frankly though 'British companies' do not have to mean British made, as some equipment just isn't economical to make here and Chinese tooling has come forward leaps and bounds when it comes to fabrics.
If you are buying jackets, pots and pans, basic stove etc Alpkit are great. I met a guy in the fells who picked up about 1.5k worth of kit from them in one go for a winter mountaineering trip and he seemed fairly happy with them. Not sure what you mean by 'underwhelmed', I walk into any outdoors shop and it's much of the same stuff - waterproofs, softshells, insulated jackets, piles of rucksacks and all the gubbins to fill them with. The less I need the less I'm excited about going around gear shops, spend more time in the book section these days!
If you're on the fence a Cumulus Climashield is probably one of the better jackets, and Apex is a better material than Primaloft if you'd like it to be an active piece for winter use.
Well it seemed like pretty basic stuff at quite high prices for what it was. I remember thinking it didn't seem any better than stuff for half the price, but I guess you don't really know until you try it.
Everything can be made in China, from the lowest to the highest quality, but where they let it down is with quality control. Every company who ships off the production to the far east has a drop in overall quality.
I've got the craghoppers compresslite insulated jacket and it's alright, but not that warm or anything special. Very cheap though. If I got a new one I'd go for montane.
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I've read all of the entries with interest and I'm still of the opinion that a down jacket is for standing around and keeping warm and when the wearer is not sweating. A synthetic jacket is for when the wearer is on the move and is liable to sweat. But I believe for both to work well in colder weather my essential is to have my windproof jacket over the top.
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If you're on the fence a Cumulus Climashield is probably one of the better jackets, and Apex is a better material than Primaloft if you'd like it to be an active piece for winter use.
I like the look of the Climashield, I didn't see that one, before I made an order for the Incredilite, my Christmas spending was fairly minimal, until I re-visited here! ;D
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I like the look of the Climashield, I didn't see that one, before I made an order for the Incredilite, my Christmas spending was fairly minimal, until I re-visited here! ;D
please do a little review of the Incredilite - I'm very interested in that one
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please do a little review of the Incredilite - I'm very interested in that one
Sure will do! It looks like I bagged the last one from rock n run for the price, £121 for 850 down seemed a decent price, I don't generally do puffers, but will let you know how it goes.
I purchased the Incredilite, not for walking as such, but more for when I am stationary / slow conditions, in cold weathers not generating the heat, such as football matches (when supporters allowed back), I found that my other jackets ok when moving (walking), but they not when I am stationery in cold weather.
It probably wont be here until the end of next week, but I'll let you know!
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please do a little review of the Incredilite - I'm very interested in that one
The Incredilite arrived today. Sadly, I will have to return it, a very athletic fit and I went a size up (I am a between L and XL), it feels like it right up under my armpits and I hate that feel with a jacket, everything else fits ok, sadly no other sizes available from rock and run for £121! :(
However, about the jacket itself, nice feel, very good quality and it's quite light, hasn't got the big puffer feel to it.
I am sad I have to return it, but I am fussy about comfort feel though, especially under the arms.
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Oh what a shame. I know what you mean about jackets that are tight under the arms. I've had a jacket before like that and conned myself into thinking it was OK when it wasn't. Ended up getting rid of it later at some expense.
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Oh what a shame. I know what you mean about jackets that are tight under the arms. I've had a jacket before like that and conned myself into thinking it was OK when it wasn't. Ended up getting rid of it later at some expense.
Sadly, a common theme with me and jackets, it because I run a bit hot and tightness under the arms just exacerbates this. Also of the reviewers on Rock n Run site, said Incredilite is just too fitted. Cumulus have a Incredilite in Black, (I am sure the next size up will solve the issue), but it's £179 :( , but they do give a 5 year warranty.
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I have been looking at replacing my Alpkit synthetic 'warm' jacket but I end up getting stuck. The reviews that I read all seem to be based on the idea that I would wear a jacket and nothing over it, (unless perhaps it was raining) so they offer their 'recommendations' as to the best ones. In my case, I wear a windproof over mine (unless the weather is 'just right'') and of course by doing this the 'recommendations' do not take this into account, or none that I've seen.
Based on my experience I think I could buy a much cheaper warm synthetic jacket because I pair it with my windproof and I'm sure I could still get the same warmth level, (perhaps even better?) but it still comes down to the same problem, which one?
My hesitancy this time has been shaped by Alpkit. I bought two synthetic jackets from them, one was cheaper than the other (by about £30) but both had full zips and no hoods. From experience, the cheaper one was always miles better, which I still use, but the more expensive one always felt sweaty inside so I gave that one away.
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The reviews that I read all seem to be based on the idea In my case, I wear a windproof over mine (unless the weather is 'just right'')
Why do you need a windproof over a jacket that is already windproof?
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Sadly, a common theme with me and jackets, it because I run a bit hot and tightness under the arms just exacerbates this. Also of the reviewers on Rock n Run site, said Incredilite is just too fitted. Cumulus have a Incredilite in Black, (I am sure the next size up will solve the issue), but it's £179 :( , but they do give a 5 year warranty.
Me too. I'm quite big in the shoulders and chest so get that a lot.
Have you checked out: https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/mens-clothing-c1/mens-down-insulation-c52/down-jackets-c204 (https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/mens-clothing-c1/mens-down-insulation-c52/down-jackets-c204)
Have some things in the sales that look OK
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Me too. I'm quite big in the shoulders and chest so get that a lot.
Have you checked out: https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/mens-clothing-c1/mens-down-insulation-c52/down-jackets-c204 (https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/mens-clothing-c1/mens-down-insulation-c52/down-jackets-c204)
Have some things in the sales that look OK
Thanks for this, there is some nice jackets there. I am in 2 minds to go a size up with Cumulus, but I like a bargain, but £180 does place the jacket into a competitive zone!
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I agree with too many modern jackets being tight under the arms. It's another "improvement" or innovation which no-one actually asked for. It's just makes you sweat more.
Though I have wide shoulders, I'm not even a big guy at all.
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There is a problem now with the 'fashion cuts' of jackets; the tightness under to arms is one, the other is how short they are. It's almost become the bolero cut!
I suspect much outdoor kit has been influenced by High Street fashion with folk looking for that healthy outdoor look (!?). Jackets are required to show a snug near tight athletic fit . It also saves money if it's manufactured with less material, and saves grams for the ultra light types.
Not very practicable for people who actually go up a hill; climbers need jackets with a looser fit to avoid arm lift and to throw over at belays; walkers often prefer a longer fit so they don't get a wet rear end.
Oh, and perhaps a pocket big enough for an OS map and not just a mobile phone?
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I agree with too many modern jackets being tight under the arms. It's another "improvement" or innovation which no-one actually asked for. It's just makes you sweat more.
Though I have wide shoulders, I'm not even a big guy at all.
Nice replies guys about the cut of jackets today, I thought it was me being fussy! There is certainly a shift in the cut of items now. I am not digressing, but it's not just jackets, but also trousers. I had some work trousers provided last year comfort fit, very comfortable, then they changed the style to slim fit, naturally I couldn't hardly sit down in them, as extremely tight around the thighs.
I find now in most jackets, if they pass my underarm slack test the jacket is ok. I have a Keela Munro, ok it's a heavier jacket, but comfort fit. However, in a group test, the reviews on it was outdated design, I am thinking 'outdated' for whom? The amount of stuff (I can't try on beforehand) I have to send back is fairly high ratio.
I've decided to end the interest in the Incredilite, mainly as Cumulus solely based in Poland for mail order (no UK outlet), so I'm wary returning (if required) internationally.
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There is a problem now with the 'fashion cuts' of jackets; the tightness under to arms is one, the other is how short they are. It's almost become the bolero cut!
I suspect much outdoor kit has been influenced by High Street fashion with folk looking for that healthy outdoor look (!?). Jackets are required to show a snug near tight athletic fit . It also saves money if it's manufactured with less material, and saves grams for the ultra light types.
Not very practicable for people who actually go up a hill; climbers need jackets with a looser fit to avoid arm lift and to throw over at belays; walkers often prefer a longer fit so they don't get a wet rear end.
Oh, and perhaps a pocket big enough for an OS map and not just a mobile phone?
I completely agree about the cut of modern jackets. I have struggled to find a suitable replacement for my old Berghaus Mera Peak II, which was long, had plenty of room and had 4 huge pockets that could swallow massive amounts and an internal map pocket. This could often mean I didn’t need a rucksack for shorter walks. There seem to be no suitable jackets for those of a larger than average build or who don’t want to be wearing a corset when out walking. There are also none with the pocket capacity I would like.
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Berghaus Mera Peak II sounds similar to my Keela Munro, well certainly on the pocket front!
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I completely agree about the cut of modern jackets. I have struggled to find a suitable replacement for my old Berghaus Mera Peak II, which was long, had plenty of room and had 4 huge pockets that could swallow massive amounts and an internal map pocket. This could often mean I didn’t need a rucksack for shorter walks. There seem to be no suitable jackets for those of a larger than average build or who don’t want to be wearing a corset when out walking. There are also none with the pocket capacity I would like.
The Paramo Cascada Jacket might be worth a closer look although admittedly Paramo does tend to be bit of a marmite brand.
I have owned one for a few years (bought secondhand off ebay for £30 delivered) and it's still as good as new and has never let me down even in the worst weather. It just needs cleaning and reproofing regularly. If you ever need an insulating layer you can put a Paramo Torres gilet or jacket over the top.
The Keela Kandura is another worth looking at if you can find one.