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Main Boards => General Walking Discussion => Topic started by: davew on 21:07:15, 04/09/19

Title: confused by gps maps
Post by: davew on 21:07:15, 04/09/19
i'm looking to buy my first handheld gps unit and have been looking at the various mapping software and i'm a bit confused ,some of the walks that i have done when i look on the map the tracks don't appear to be there, i've looked on talkytoaster maps, viewranger and satmaps explorer maps and quite a few of the paths i walk are just not shown.
i live in Durham and if i look on the councils website for paths and rights of way everything is there ,what is it that i'm missing i don't want to spend money on maps only to find what i want is not shown.

Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: gunwharfman on 21:13:31, 04/09/19
I've never owned a dedicated GPS unit, mainly because I've never understood the difference between one of those and the GPS maps on my phone? I assume that the OS maps would show all of your footpaths? I personally use the app Backcountry which displays OS maps and to date, I've never had a problem with it. Your entry interests me because I know nothing about these items and hope that some other Forum members respond to you. If you learn something so will I.
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: Slowcoach on 21:24:25, 04/09/19
Davew,  os maps and open street maps often do not show the same paths. Unless someone supplies OSM  with info from their logged route they won’t know about the path. If i walk in areas generally not popular then OSM often shows me walking across blank areas.
If the tracks/paths you walk are on the council maps as public rights of way they should appear on OS mapping.
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: ninthace on 21:36:59, 04/09/19
Welcome, I'm a bit confused by your post.  Are you saying that you have done a walk but you cannot find the path you used on the digital maps you have looked at?


That is not uncommon.  Paths appear over time and areas that are well walked are criss-crossed by paths that are not on the map.  Even OS maps do not show all the paths that exist.  They will show rights of way (whether they physically exist or not) and some other paths that were there at the time of the last survey.  ViewRanger offers OS maps (for a subscription).  Their own maps will show rights of way plus some other paths that people use.  Talky toaster and OSM maps likewise.  They are a combination of rights of way and other paths that people have sent in gps traces for.
GoogleEarth or OS Aerial view will show even more paths as they are pictures of what was on the ground at the time of the last picture (useless for wooded areas though).  It is a fact of life reflecting a dynamic system.
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: davew on 22:31:47, 04/09/19
sorry i'm not very good at explaining myself , the first picture is a screen shot of talky toaster map, the second is a map from Durham council ,the first picture shows almost no paths and tracks the second there is loads more detail.
how could i possibly plan a route using the talky toaster maps as there are hardly any tracks or paths shown, if that makes sense.
(https://i.imgur.com/XTHuZhu.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/Oi1DU91.png)
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: WhitstableDave on 22:34:27, 04/09/19
i'm looking to buy my first handheld gps unit and have been looking at the various mapping software and i'm a bit confused ,some of the walks that i have done when i look on the map the tracks don't appear to be there, i've looked on talkytoaster maps, viewranger and satmaps explorer maps and quite a few of the paths i walk are just not shown.
i live in Durham and if i look on the councils website for paths and rights of way everything is there ,what is it that i'm missing i don't want to spend money on maps only to find what i want is not shown.

Hi davew. I think that most of your questions have already been well answered, so I'll just say something about you looking to buy a handheld GPS unit...

I subscribe to OS Maps and plot my intended routes on their online map/website. I copy the routes to my device and follow them on my walks.

I used to use OS Maps on my phone, but there were lots of problems: my phone is my camera so I was forever switching apps; it would go haywire when wet (despite a 'waterproof' case); the touchscreen was problematic in rain and with gloves; the zoom level was limited (I don't wear my reading glasses on walks!); I occasionally lost signal; but, most troublesome of all, the battery life was insufficient so I would often be carrying my phone with a battery-pack attached.

I put up with all this for a long time because I struggled to justify getting an expensive dedicated GPS unit. But I eventually gave in and bought a Satmap Active 20 with full GB 1:25k maps. It was the best thing I could have done because it revolutionised my walking!

The battery life is good enough for a full day; I can zoom in very close or to any degree I choose; it's completely waterproof although I can use the buttons if rain affects the touchscreen; the positioning accuracy is extremely good, and the unit is incredibly tough. There are lots more advantages over a phone, but that will do for now!

One last thing... I can't get to grips with Satmap's Explorer, but I'm a huge fan of OS Maps.  O0
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: alan de enfield on 07:26:27, 05/09/19

I put up with all this for a long time because I struggled to justify getting an expensive dedicated GPS unit. But I eventually gave in and bought a Satmap Active 20 with full GB 1:25k maps. It was the best thing I could have done because it revolutionised my walking!

The battery life is good enough for a full day; I can zoom in very close or to any degree I choose; it's completely waterproof although I can use the buttons if rain affects the touchscreen; the positioning accuracy is extremely good, and the unit is incredibly tough. There are lots more advantages over a phone, but that will do for now!

One last thing... I can't get to grips with Satmap's Explorer, but I'm a huge fan of OS Maps.  O0



I can only agree 100% about the SatMap - 'its a perfect tool'.


I have the SatMap 10 (not touch screen) and full UK OS mapping at scales of 1:50,000, 1:25,000 & 1:10,000 and you can zoom in even tighter.
It gets down to individual blades of grass levels (well not quite)  but with 1mm on the screen being only 10 metres on the ground its pretty close.
Accuracy is normally under 20 feet - and even shows which side of a track you have walked up.


It gives you a good summary of times, distances, height gain etc for post walk evaluation.


Recommended.



I found with the SatMap "Adventure" maps that being based on "Open Cycle Map" & "Open Street Map" are not much use for hiking.

I have been walking on a footpath and all of a sudden it disappears (on the map) and there is no indication of it reappearing, in other cases a path is shown on the map but is not indicated or in existence in 'the real world'. I have given up on them (I have the full UK at 1:25,000 Adventure map) but find the OS mapping to be accurate.





(https://i.postimg.cc/hQ9q7FLh/1544369954318.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hQ9q7FLh)
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: sussamb on 07:27:51, 05/09/19
I have had Garmin GPS for many years, the advantage of Garmin is that there are many free maps freely available, and I generally find OSM maps accurate.


Having looked at the TT map that is poor in that area, my main OSM map is a different one, and it matches more accurately the other one you posted. It looks though as that's an area where folks haven't updated OSM that much, as some other ones while better than TT aren't perfect.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Mv60bFCn/Capture.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Mv60bFCn)


One other thing to consider based on how you use it, Garmins have a higher waterproof rating than Satmaps, and there are often complaints about them not being 'waterproof'  although there are waterproof cases for them.
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: geordie33 on 08:05:48, 05/09/19
I live in Durham and find that OSM is very sketchy.I think it's because a lot of our paths are in remote hardly visited areas so no one updates it
All paths are on the definitive map but that doesn't mean they actually exist on the ground so again OSM unlikely to be updated.
I use a Garmin GPS or Viewranger which are generally enough for me
I did try an OS subscription but often forgot to download for off line use and as you will know lots of Durham does not get a phone signal
This is of course not a problem with Garmin or Viewranger which use the devices aerial
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: ninthace on 08:28:47, 05/09/19
For my Garmin I use BaseCamp, the mapping app thar supports Garmin, to download the OS mapping I need to the unit's SD card.  Basecamp is also a very good planning tool.  I also have Freizeitkarte for the UK and CacheMapsUK on my SD card which are both open source maps.
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B-BtzqG8Y_Z0fkwxRm5vOWNjOEdHZGlUTUYzM0p3dEFmaTVMcHowNjBsZ3RXUWh6QzVfMkU (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B-BtzqG8Y_Z0fkwxRm5vOWNjOEdHZGlUTUYzM0p3dEFmaTVMcHowNjBsZ3RXUWh6QzVfMkU)
http://www.freizeitkarte-osm.de/garmin/en/index.html (http://www.freizeitkarte-osm.de/garmin/en/index.html)


Freizetkarte
(https://i.postimg.cc/4dn0b1q3/2019-09-05-3.png) (https://postimg.cc/ftn5MYw4)

 
CacheMapsUK
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5thbXgx/2019-09-05-2.png) (https://postimg.cc/Yh3P8Dtv)
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: ninthace on 09:14:24, 05/09/19
By comparison:
OS Standard Map (the one that is free)
(https://i.postimg.cc/PqsPY67t/2019-09-05-7.png) (https://postimages.org/)host an image (https://postimages.org/)
The OS 25k - my preferred map with Garmin
(https://i.postimg.cc/V6N1Cnzf/2019-09-05-6.png) (https://postimages.org/)pic upload (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: WhitstableDave on 09:18:15, 05/09/19
One other thing to consider based on how you use it, Garmins have a higher waterproof rating than Satmaps, and there are often complaints about them not being 'waterproof'  although there are waterproof cases for them.
I happily use a Garmin GPS watch and a Satmap handheld GPS so I'm not looking to rate one manufacturer over the other.

The Satmap Active 20 has a waterproof rating of IP68, which (I believe) is as good as it gets - submergible up to 1.5m is fine with me anyway.

As far as I know there are no waterproof cases available for the Active 20, presumably because it doesn't need one.

A quick browse of the most expensive Garmin handhelds shows waterproof ratings of IPX7 - 'Incidental exposure to water of up to 1 meter for up to 30 minutes'.
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: sussamb on 11:48:44, 05/09/19
Maybe the reports of waterproof issues were with previous satmap versions then, I know screens misted up etc
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: Patrick1 on 14:00:38, 05/09/19
I don't think anyone's going to have a solution to your issue other than to say - you're right, not all maps are equal. OSM is not bad in well walked areas, and I tend to carry both OSM and OS maps. Comparison is sometimes instructive, with OS often superior but not always - sometimes OSM shows where people really walk while the OS just shows where they're supposed to walk!


One simple way in which the OS maps do score for me could actually be easily emulated by other digital mapping products but sadly isn't. That's the overlay of the 1km grid squares, which means its immediately possible to get a feel for distances, even just by glancing at the map. Other products vary the amount of detail, and the resolution of any grid, as you zoom in and out, which can make it very hard to judge scale at a glance.
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: Owen on 14:59:55, 05/09/19
Maybe the reports of waterproof issues were with previous satmap versions then, I know screens misted up etc


Satmap 10 wasn't waterproof at all, can't speak for the 12 or 20.
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: sussamb on 16:14:19, 05/09/19
One simple way in which the OS maps do score for me could actually be easily emulated by other digital mapping products but sadly isn't. That's the overlay of the 1km grid squares, which means its immediately possible to get a feel for distances, even just by glancing at the map. Other products vary the amount of detail, and the resolution of any grid, as you zoom in and out, which can make it very hard to judge scale at a glance.

CacheMap UK, which I use,  has the grid overlay  :)
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: Slowcoach on 18:29:25, 05/09/19
Sussamb, while you’re available....how are things now?
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: sussamb on 20:01:12, 05/09/19
Fine thanks, and thanks for your concern.  Did a 9 mile walk over the Downs today at 3.4mph, and planning a return C2C trip in early March O0

No lasting damage except for a small area of my skull that is still numb to touch, and apparently I'll be featured in the next issue of the NW Air Ambulance newsletter  ;D
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: Slowcoach on 20:04:37, 05/09/19
 Good to hear  but an extreme way to get into the paper. Did your insurance play fair .
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: davew on 20:07:19, 05/09/19
thanks for the help ,i think i've got it sorted i started a free trail to os maps and can see pretty much everything i need in there, i need reading glasses so i think one with a larger screen would be best, i think i'm going to go for a satmap 20 ,they have recon units on there site for a good price.
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: Slowcoach on 20:12:43, 05/09/19
I use a Garmin Oregon 650...very clever bit of kit and I love it. I walk with several people who use a Satmap and they swear by their kit. The screen as you say is larger and very easy to read and zoom in .
The only downside as far as I can see is the units physical size, it does not sit easily in the hand.
So I hope you get one at a price that suits you and enjoy it.
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: sussamb on 21:00:40, 05/09/19
Good to hear  but an extreme way to get into the paper. Did your insurance play fair .


Yep, didn't even have to prove anything, just provided the hospital discharge letter, entered costs of deposits I'd made and lost, and train tickets I hadn't used, and paid out within a few weeks  O0
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: sussamb on 21:03:17, 05/09/19
The only downside as far as I can see is the units physical size, it does not sit easily in the hand.


It's why I use my Etrex 20 when walking rather than my Montana, even though its screen is larger.
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: ninthace on 21:16:01, 05/09/19
The screen size you need depends on how you use your gps.  Stand by for generalisation here - if you follow routes that you have planned in advance and out loaded to your gps you can use a smaller screen as the decisions you have to make en route are less complex.  Basically you are trying to follow a line so it is more a question of identifying turning points, working out which gate to go through, that sort of thing.
If you are using the gps in lieu  of a paper map then you may need a bigger screen to see the bigger picture.
I use an Etrex 30 to navigate with the range scale usually set on 120m.  If I need the bigger picture I refer to an A4 printout of the route supplemented by OS maps on my mobile if needed.
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: Rob Goes Walking on 21:28:26, 05/09/19
My Samsung Galaxy S10e is waterproof and has lasted 8 hours with plenty of battery to spare using ViewRanger before. I still can't justify a top notch SatNav and can't afford one anyway.
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: WhitstableDave on 21:51:15, 05/09/19
thanks for the help ,i think i've got it sorted i started a free trail to os maps and can see pretty much everything i need in there, i need reading glasses so i think one with a larger screen would be best, i think i'm going to go for a satmap 20 ,they have recon units on there site for a good price.

Sounds like an excellent choice!  :) O0
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: GnP on 13:33:27, 23/05/20
I've never owned a dedicated GPS unit, mainly because I've never understood the difference between one of those and the GPS maps on my phone? I assume that the OS maps would show all of your footpaths? I personally use the app Backcountry which displays OS maps and to date, I've never had a problem with it. Your entry interests me because I know nothing about these items and hope that some other Forum members respond to you. If you learn something so will I.

Sorry to bring up an old thread like this, but I have downloaded the free/starter version of Back country navigator on to an old tough phone at home on my broadband. The phone has no sim in it.

I am presuming you cannot download Ordnance Survey maps for use outdoors, without purchasing the next level up of B C N.?
But is it possible to cache them some way in the phones memory & then use the OS maps that way, just to confirm my position, & better still, a GPX route too.At the moment I use a printed out screen shot of OS mapping from Walk lakes along with a GPX route on my E trex 20x GPS.

I love the fact that B C N uses OS mapping via Bing which is free to use when I am at home on broadband. It is superb. Up until a few weeks ago I had an annual subscription of OS mapping & found it to be pretty good but I`m just looking around at the moment for other ways of using OS mapping , especially if it is without cost.  :o
I do not want to use my other phone as I keep that just for calls and text etc. It would be too much of a faff for me to use the one phone for all.
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: Toxicbunny on 13:45:26, 23/05/20
I have OS maps on my mobile but I dont rely on my mobile for navigation.   I have a Garmin Etrex. I have OS maps on my Etrex and use it with garmin basecamp. 
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: gunwharfman on 17:41:55, 23/05/20
I'm a very simple hiker, I just follow signs or a worn or still recognizable footpath, every now and then I'll check where I am on my phone. I've been lost before but usually because I thought I was on a particular footpath when in fact I was actually on another. Apart from using Backcountry in real-time so I know exactly where I am I've never bothered to find out what else it can do. Sorry.
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: GnP on 18:46:59, 23/05/20
I'm a very simple hiker, I just follow signs or a worn or still recognizable footpath, every now and then I'll check where I am on my phone. I've been lost before but usually because I thought I was on a particular footpath when in fact I was actually on another. Apart from using Backcountry in real-time so I know exactly where I am I've never bothered to find out what else it can do. Sorry.
Ok thanks  O0
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: sussamb on 19:35:16, 23/05/20
I have OS maps on my mobile but I dont rely on my mobile for navigation.   I have a Garmin Etrex. I have OS maps on my Etrex and use it with garmin basecamp.


 O0
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: ninthace on 19:41:55, 23/05/20
In a nutshell as I understand it you want a free, phone based navigation app that will give you access to OS maps off line for free?


The way I tackle this is to use VewRanger which is free to download and use.  This will give maps based on open sources , which can be stored for offline use.  But to do this with OS maps you need to pay a premium subscription.  However the premium subscription can be bought with credits rather than cash.  So then the issue is how to get credits.  Well, as a keen walker, who already records his routes, you can convert the gps trace of a walk to a route on VR and publish it for others to use.  When you publish a route, you can decide how many credits the route is worth.  If anyone downloads one of your routes, the credits can be added to your account and you, in turn, can use these to pay for your OS subscription.
This way you are giving something back to the walking community and in return, they are subsidising your walking to create more routes.
I used just such a method to pay for a month's subscription to LINZ maps of New Zealand on my last trip out there.  Currently, I have just over 440 routes published on VR and I charge the minimum, short of free, to download one of my routes - I think it equates to 10p.   It you want to have a look, my VR shortcode is  nthce
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: archaeoroutes on 23:02:27, 23/05/20
Looking at the OP, I do wonder whether a physical OS map would have sorted the problem. The question seemed to be more about getting maps that showed paths than about using them on a device.
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: GnP on 10:46:17, 24/05/20
In a nutshell as I understand it you want a free, phone based navigation app that will give you access to OS maps off line for free?


The way I tackle this is to use VewRanger which is free to download and use. 


 It you want to have a look, my VR shortcode is  nthce
Thanks. !
I never record routes, as I walk . I always create one on a map beforehand and then walk it.


It appears that OS mapping used in the Back country app stays in the phone cache even after turning off and back on, having zoomed in and out and over the area needed previously. Now I have used it for a couple of days I quite like it.

I had a subscription for VR two years back, but preferred the OS mapping application having used both. I know VR is popular though and for good reasons.
Thanks all. O0 
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: ninthace on 14:03:23, 24/05/20
I never record routes, as I walk . I always create one on a map beforehand and then walk it.
  I create a route using a digital OS map from the OS website or from BaseCamp.  I then record a gps track as I walk the route.  After the walk I have a look at the actual track against the planned route.  Not only is it interesting to see where I really went and any mistakes I made, but I find it hones my map reading skills.  Maps are full of tiny little hints and nuances which are only really learned from experience.  I also use the data in the recorded track for my walk log.
 More importantly, I can use BaseCamp to display all the walks I have done in an area so I can fill in the gaps.  There is a kind of perverse satisfaction in turning an area like the Lakes or the N Pennines into something resembling a lace doily and spotting the gaps, zooming in and seeing if there is a walk to be had.  I am currently trying to the same thing with Devon and bits of Somerset and Cornwall.  I find it creates a never ending variety of walks without the need to repeat trips and it can lead to some undiscovered gems.
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: GnP on 14:30:18, 24/05/20
  I create a route using a digital OS map from the OS website or from BaseCamp.  I then record a gps track as I walk the route.  After the walk I have a look at the actual track against the planned route.  Not only is it interesting to see where I really went and any mistakes I made, but I find it hones my map reading skills.  Maps are full of tiny little hints and nuances which are only really learned from experience.  I also use the data in the recorded track for my walk log.
 More importantly, I can use BaseCamp to display all the walks I have done in an area so I can fill in the gaps.  There is a kind of perverse satisfaction in turning an area like the Lakes or the N Pennines into something resembling a lace doily and spotting the gaps, zooming in and seeing if there is a walk to be had.  I am currently trying to the same thing with Devon and bits of Somerset and Cornwall.  I find it creates a never ending variety of walks without the need to repeat trips and it can lead to some undiscovered gems.
I might well attempt to record my next walk as I follow it . I have the etrex 20x. It is something I have never really thought to do, but as you describe it, it would be interesting to see my actual track as opposed to the planned route.

I have, and use, Basecamp mostly to transfer GPX files onto my etrex gps. I started doing that originally after converting routes into tracks on Basecamp, before transferring them onto my etrex.
The reason for doing that was it seemed that anything over ( say ) an eight mile route never fully appeared on my etrex. It was as if it didn`t have enough memory to acccept such a large file. Where as it has accepted any track up to now.

Yes I see what you mean about patterns on the Basecamp map. When I zoom out all the routes appear quite vividly.

Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: sussamb on 15:19:41, 24/05/20
I started doing that originally after converting routes into tracks on Basecamp, before transferring them onto my etrex.
The reason for doing that was it seemed that anything over ( say ) an eight mile route never fully appeared on my etrex. It was as if it didn`t have enough memory to acccept such a large file.


Your Etrex can only have up to 250 points in a route, but thousands in a track.  That's why a route wouldn't have fully appeared.  Having said that I can manage 20 mile routes with less than 250 points, but you always need to check they are under 250 before you send them to your Etrex.  I prefer routes to tracks as you get more information etc with routes  :)
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: GnP on 15:29:36, 24/05/20

Your Etrex can only have up to 250 points in a route, but thousands in a track.  That's why a route wouldn't have fully appeared.  Having said that I can manage 20 mile routes with less than 250 points, but you always need to check they are under 250 before you send them to your Etrex.  I prefer routes to tracks as you get more information etc with routes  :)

Ah ok, I do now remember reading about the points issue a while back.

I like the beep, you can have , with routes on my Etrex, just as confirmation you are where you should be.
Title: Re: confused by gps maps
Post by: sussamb on 15:39:20, 24/05/20
Yes, that beep has saved me a few times  ;)