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Title: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: RogerA on 13:08:30, 21/03/18
My daughter is doing Duke of Edinburgh Bronze this summer. She tells me her teacher at school has suggested they'll be carrying 20kg ... this seems really quite a lot to me.
I'm also concerned that she things shes been told they wont be carrying any water as this will be provided ... surely 2l is the minimum to carry on a whole day 15km walk with pack in July?
I would have thought 10-13kg sounds more reasonable. Does anyone know what is normal for this type of expedition?

The below is somewhat guesswork but I think covers most of the weight needed:
2l water (2kg)
Backpack (2.3kg)
Sleeping bag (1.6kg)
1/4 Tent (1.25kg)
Food (2kg)
Spare Clothes (2kg)
Total : just over 11kg
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: Ridge on 13:42:42, 21/03/18
Stove and fuel to add to your list, and then all those odd bits and bobs which must be made of lead the way the weight adds up.


Both my kids have done some DofE and water was provided at the camp sites but not on the walks.
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: jimbob on 14:09:11, 21/03/18
This may give you an idea of how the organisers think:

Kitlist for DOE
https://www.dofeshopping.org/kitlist/ (https://www.dofeshopping.org/kitlist/)

Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: lostme1 on 16:17:51, 21/03/18
I have met groups out walking and they are carrying water which they can top up at the check points if it is hot. I was told they have to be totally self sufficient on the walk.

I have picked up a rucksack of a bronze participant and if that had been my first experience of walking I would never had gone again as the pack was very heavy and needed the help of another person to get it on. I don't know if they were carrying a lot of unnecessary extras or not. One leader I was chatting to said girls have been know turn up with gas hair stylers to do their hair.

Every May an area near me is used as the trial run before the real weekend and I have directed many a lost group in an wooded area which has more paths on the ground than on the map. I helped teacher/leaders find groups.
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: Slogger on 16:40:33, 21/03/18
DOE participents always look over burdened with their sacks don't they. I have pften wondered whether this is because they are instructed to take so much or whether it is their own decision. Their gear is also not the lightest either, but typical of inexpierience and shallow pockets. The lightest gear is far more expensive. A DOE instructor once told me when asked abour the weight factor that some do weigh themselves down. This made me think that it is not a neccesity? carrying water is essential.
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: RogerA on 17:00:49, 21/03/18
Thanks for your replies guys! I knew I could rely on you for some common sense.

heh! gas powered curlers ... one of the girls in the group I know was intending to bring a stone based frying pan, eggs flour and milk so she could make pancakes in the morning ... I sent a message via my daughter to stop being so silly.

Perhaps I'll let her pack what she thinks she needs then take her on an easy 5 miler ... then go through with her and remove what she wont need.
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: happyhiker on 17:50:40, 21/03/18
To OP, suggest you tell your daughter to ensure she does carry water because I have come across Duke of Edinburgh Award groups when out walking and they have always been either lost (on one occasion travelling in exactly the wrong, opposite direction) or well behind schedule, or both!
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: fernman on 18:08:43, 21/03/18
I was told they have to be totally self sufficient on the walk.

True! When I told a group I passed that there was a Spar store down in the valley, they told me they weren't allowed to use it.
But they were pleased to learn there was a public convenience, they could use that!  :)
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: Dyffryn Ardudwy on 18:36:49, 21/03/18
I would have thought that such a well respected and long established outdoors challenge for the young adventurer, would have had a set list for the equipment that each candidate was expected to carry.
Weight may be an issue, but firstly i would want to know which items of kit are essential or compulsory, and which are optional.

The main criteria for someone who is possibly new to the great outdoors, is staying dry, warm, and fully hydrated.

Correct boot fitment and comfort hopefully will be taken for granted, but there must be a specified kit list.


A 20k weight seems quite heavy, especially for someone possibly unused to hauling that kind of weight around on their backs.
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: ninthace on 18:49:00, 21/03/18
DA: In reply #2 to this thread, there is a link to the kit list. If you read it, it lists kit both recommended and optional
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: Slowcoach on 19:18:19, 21/03/18
It is usually possible to determine what level DoE ers ar at by their packs. Bronze..huge packs with all sorts of items dangling on the outside. Silver..neat looking pack but with tent and sleeping gear slung underneath. Gold..neat pack with everything inside.
I was walking in Derbyshire when a group of Bronze DoEers appeared with all the usual dangly bits.one boy though had a neatish pack with just one or two bits on the outside. One of the others asked him how come his was so neat and the reply was his nan had packed it and it all went inside but when he went hunting in the pack for something he couldn’t get it all back inside.
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: Welsh Rambler on 19:44:58, 21/03/18
I wonder if there is a bit of a crossed line between the teacher and the pupils because 20kg sounds an awful lot for a teenager to lug around and enjoy the expedition experience. 11kg sounds far more realistic, when I ran Scouts we encouraged the lads to keep below 25 lbs for a two day expedition which is under 11kg. It made them experiment with different types of food and realise that camp food doesn't have to be beans and sausages.


Maybe the water mentioned is for cooking in the evening and washing but to take no drinking water sounds a recipe for problems.


A conversation with the teacher sounds advisable RogerA if your daughter is to enjoy her expedition.


Regards Keith
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: Owen on 20:11:44, 21/03/18
You all seem to be missing the whole point of the DofE thing. Their not supposed to enjoy it, their meant to be suffering, their supposed  to carry far to much and have a really bad time. They should come away from it with the idea that all outdoor activities are for masochists and never want to do anything like it again. Leaving the hills nice and quite for us to enjoy all to ourselves.


 
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: Islandplodder on 20:37:01, 21/03/18

Certainly whenever I see DofE-ers I think the idea must be put them off for life.
I suppose no-one is going to get good kit for something they might never do again, but I sometimes wonder if any of them do some long term damage to their backs.
My brother had a theory the packs were designed to weed out the weaklings.
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: tonyk on 21:47:14, 21/03/18
 Well it was created by Prince Phillip.Did anyone expect it to be a pleasant experience?

 
He is not known for his sensitive and sympathetic nature.
 So when a group of teenagers told Prince Philip of their hardships (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/prince-philip-jokes-knocking-toddler-2351131) during a recent Duke of Edinburgh expedition, they were given short-shrift.
As he toured the state rooms of St James's Palace, Prince Philip told the group: "You were meant to suffer, it's good for the soul.
"You can all breathe a sigh of relief it's all over."
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/prince-philip-tells-teenagers-who-2359596


Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: ninthace on 22:02:50, 21/03/18
I’m surprised the kit list doesn’t include a self-righting mechanism.  :)
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: harland on 22:09:28, 21/03/18
I don't know what my very uncomfortable old style rucksack with all the weight on my shoulders and contents weighed when I did my gold DofE in the 1960s but it definitely wouldn't have been in kilogrammes! 

As for water I don't remember carrying any but we did carry cans of Top Deck Shandy!  I know things are different nowadays, and for very good reason, but we had to stay away from all civilisation for 3 days when walking for 50 miles around Dartmoor. 

However I do feel that the total bronze, silver and gold award DofE programme was a very good preparation for my later life.  It is a pity that many do not go all the way to receive their gold award; I know that for my parents to go to Buckingham Palace to see me receive the award was one of the highlights of their life. 

It was the walking I did through the scouts and the DofE that brought me back to walking later in life.  Without those experiences in my youth I don't know whether I would have ever started walking the LDPs with the navigational skills required.  I always interviewed any youngster who applied for a job who had completed the gold award as they had shown commitment and perseverance that could help them in their future career.
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: RogerA on 09:48:55, 22/03/18
Thanks for the advice and comment all.

heh Top Deck Shandy  :D I remember that well.

You may be right but I'm not sure telling my daughter that shes not supposed to enjoy it, she should suffer and it should be painful is the most positive message I could give her  :) ... but then perhaps one to save up for for a rainy day.

Very interesting comment on the reducing size and increased neatness of pack size as you progress from bronze through to gold.
I'd seen the DoE kit list before ... it reminded me of a kit list I was given for a guided walk in Snowdonia last year, which I duly made sure I had, only to have the instructor go through each of our packs and take half of each out as not needed. I was therefore more treating it as things you might want to think about rather than gospel requirement.

I think definately a chat with the teacher and a trial walk are in order.

Thanks again guys!
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: April on 13:31:59, 22/03/18
If they are being expected to carry 20kg, it is no wonder they all look fed up! Yes a chat with the teacher is a good idea Roger, packs should not be that heavy!
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: Ridge on 14:37:15, 22/03/18
1 odd thing about the DofE which I discovered with my own kids and have witnessed in the hills. They don't have to walk a set distance ythey have to walk for a set time, but they HAVE to be at the check points at a predetermined time. All this does is encourage you to over estimate how long it will take them to walk between check points so DofEers can spend a lot of time loitering about killing time so as not to get to their check points too early.
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: jimbob on 14:45:22, 22/03/18
I have only  twice passed DOE checkpoints and at each of them there was lots of water available. In fact I went up Jacobs ladder once with  leader who was only carrying water and boy was he weighed down. He still flew ahead of me at the top, since even with about one quarter of his carried weight on my back I was as usual, quite slow.
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: c.bede on 14:24:12, 16/04/18

As a DofE Gold assessor myself, and the manager of a Licensed DofE centre, I would agree that 20Kg is excessive.  My own bag for my ML assessment was only 18k and that included 30m of rope and a helmet!  OK, there was some lightweight kit, but there was an awful lot of "just in case" stuff too, which adds up!
Our own gold candidates generally end up with a bag somewhere around 11-14kg after some real trimming down.  Careful choice of food can save an awful lot of weight and bulk.


Now - the water issue.  Any centre/assessor/supervisor which restricts the amount of water carried is, in my mind negligent.  Yes, it adds to weight and bulk, but is arguably one of the most important things carried.  I have heard of assessors and supervisors pouring excess water away, and this was in a 30 degree heatwave last summer.  I have no problem replenishing candidates water supplies in hot weather, nor if they have run completely dry would I have a major problem with them buying emergency water in a shop (as long as they didn't come out with a 3 course dinner!).  Yes, the 20 conditions of DofE stand, but most important is the care and welfare of the young people in our charge.  It is after all a Gold DofE award, not SAS selection, though unfortunately I have met too many assessors in my time who seem to consider it the latter!


The experience should be enjoyable - it is tough, mentally and physically, but I find that good navigation training and the ability to look after each other helps keep the majority of the misery at bay. 
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: midweekmountain on 19:54:18, 16/04/18
I have done a lot of work with Gold DofE groups, IMHO much depends on the experience of the group leaders and how they guide the youngsters/parents to purchase/aquire cost effective kit.

One of my roles was to scrutinise the packs a couple of days prior to the exped took place this ensured they had the right kit OR if there is a problem you still have time to put it right.

When you look at the recommended group gear for DofE it seems excessive BUT a scrutiniser can help by trimming it to a safe minimum then share items amongst the group (normally 4-6 persons) the secret is to balance loads between the group.




If the group leader is a (F)uckwit, and I have come across some, you will have problems.
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: c.bede on 08:23:54, 18/04/18

Absolutely correct.....  Group kit should be shared - things like emergency shelters can be left as they have a tent - a flysheet performs exactly the same function!

Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: sussamb on 09:00:10, 18/04/18
Things like emergency shelters can be left as they have a tent - a flysheet performs exactly the same function!


Actually it doesn't ... If you've ever tried one against the other an emergency shelter gets you out of the wind and warm very quickly without any need to find a suitable spot to pitch a flysheet, which at best just keeps rain and some wind off you.
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: tonyk on 10:01:50, 18/04/18
 Apart from wind a flysheet won't keep out spindrift.There is also the problem of anchoring it in a gale as the wind gets underneath.Its each tool for the job and a flysheet is part of a tent rather than an emergency shelter.I have used a flysheet to sit out storms but it has just been put over my head to keep the rain off rather than pitched with pegs.Once hypothermia sets in people get confused and trying to pitch a flysheet might be too much for them.

 I do have to question why you would consider using a flysheet as an emergency shelter when you have a tent?
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: c.bede on 10:19:22, 18/04/18

I wasn't suggesting the use of a flysheet for anything more than a very short term shelter - anything longer term and you would of course pitch the tent which then provides stability and warmth with the ability to get into sleeping bags etc.  Our tents are inner pitch first, geodesic ones and the flysheet is pretty much the same shape as the emergency shelters our supervisors carry.  Sitting on the edges of the thing to hold it down does work, no need for pegs or poles - granted it's not as good as an emergency shelter, and longer term the tent would be erected.


Take your point about spindrift - that does get everywhere, but hopefully DofE groups should plan not to be in such conditions, and supervisors/assessors should ensure that wherever possible, they are not.
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: sussamb on 10:23:38, 18/04/18
Surely that's why you carry an emergency shelter ... for when you are caught out  O0
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: c.bede on 11:32:01, 18/04/18

Absolutely, but the point was about how to cut down on weight/bulk and be adaptable enough to repurpose the kit you have when required - eg using gas powered hair straighteners as a heater!!  O0 ;D

Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: sussamb on 11:51:44, 18/04/18
Well one I wouldn't chuck out would be the emergency shelter  O0
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: Owen on 12:10:44, 18/04/18
I know nothing about the DoE system but I've done lots of wild camping. Have to say if I was carrying a tent I wouldn't consider also taking an emergency shelter. It's either one or the other, don't duplicate. Ever hear about the straw that broke the donkey's back? 
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: sussamb on 13:43:03, 18/04/18
DofE is a completely different scenario.  If I was out solo camping I wouldn't carry both either.
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: Maggot on 23:01:19, 18/04/18
I think all of you have missed the key aspect of packing for a DofE expedition. 


Make sure your daughter has all manner of extraneous tat hanging off the rucksack on the outside.  This will mean that when they are their lowest, they will sink either lower when the realise they have lost their mug and the bin liner they wrapped their sleeping bag in ripped at 10.15 in the morning and it's soaked  ;D
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: alan de enfield on 23:16:38, 18/04/18

I think all of you have missed the key aspect of packing for a DofE expedition. 


Make sure your daughter has all manner of extraneous tat hanging off the rucksack on the outside.  This will mean that when they are their lowest, they will sink either lower when the realise they have lost their mug and the bin liner they wrapped their sleeping bag in ripped at 10.15 in the morning and it's soaked  ;D


When I did my DofE (up to Gold) I was taught that everything should go inside the bag, nothing to rattle, get caught, ripped or lost.
Anything that was on the outside was removed before you departed - mind you 45 years ago it was a different era, as kids we climbed and fell out of trees, ate our sandwiches with filthy hands, and carried our ex-army, steel  A-Framed rucksacs with half-a-hundredweight of 'stuff' and survived.
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: sussamb on 06:29:58, 19/04/18
mind you 45 years ago it was a different era, as kids we climbed and fell out of trees, ate our sandwiches with filthy hands, and carried our ex-army, steel  A-Framed rucksacs with half-a-hundredweight of 'stuff' and survived.

Ah, those were the days ... I remember them well  O0
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: harland on 09:08:31, 19/04/18
Ah, those were the days ... I remember them well  O0
Snap but 55 years ago, held me in good stead ever since! :D
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: fernman on 09:13:56, 19/04/18
That's an interesting point about items outside the rucksack.
Only last Saturday I was window shopping in a large outdoors store (no, not GO) where one item that caught my eye was a budget backpack. Just looking, you understand.
Back at home, I searched for it on their website, where there was a large photo of a guy wearing one up in the mountains - and there was a stainless steel mug hanging from the pack.
I immediately thought that anyone advertising a backpack like that couldn't be the greatest expert in that field, and my interest in their product fizzled out.
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: NeilC on 22:08:29, 19/04/18
My son's doing his bronze practice expedition next week. I'm gonna let him use all their hire kit and take whatever. No doubt it will be twice as heavy as it needs to be.


Maybe then he'll appreciate all the effort I to for our weekend backpacking trips and take a bit more interest in what unpack and why.
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: dartmoorrambler on 09:10:00, 08/05/18
I was a D of E trainer and asessor for many years in the Lake District. One of the things we taught was how to get your pack as light as possible while still being safe in the worst conditions.
One example was to share whatever could be shared - one tube of toothpaste was more than enough for 6 people for two nights, or get the tiny free sample tube from a friendly dentist. You can do without any cosmetics for two days.
Weigh your clothing and make sure you use the lightest you can find - fleece rather than wool.
Weigh your sleeping gear -go for the lightest.
Go for high energy foods, not bulk, and food that takes the least preparation.
The simplest rucksac are often the lightest. Pockets, zips etc all add extra weight.
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: Jac on 09:21:14, 08/05/18
............... get the tiny free sample tube from a friendly dentist.

I got one several years ago and just refill it from the main tube at home whenever I go away. Lasts a couple of weeks easily.
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: fernman on 09:37:19, 08/05/18
@ dartmoorrambler, that's my philosophy entirely!

get the tiny free sample tube from a friendly dentist. You can do without any cosmetics for two days.

If you don't have a friendly dentist, or maybe not one at all (!), you can buy those tubes on eBay. Even better are the really tiny ones given on long-haul flights, my travelling wife keeps me supplied with them.


The simplest rucksac are often the lightest. Pockets, zips etc all add extra weight.

I tried on a loaded Osprey Aether AG 70 in Cotswold and fell in love with it, so superior to and more comfortable than my old pack. Unfortunately it is also two pounds heavier than mine, so I shall stick with what I have.
Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: alan de enfield on 09:51:14, 08/05/18



Deleted as picture won't post.





Title: Re: Duke of Edinburgh - Weight to Carry
Post by: RogerA on 09:59:08, 08/05/18
My daughter did her DOE bronze expedition trial run at the weekend.
I managed to get her pack down to 13kg, still heavier than I would have liked but far lighter than she started with.
Her teacher at school had been talking about under 20kg where I think she meant under 20% bodyweight perhaps (or perhaps my daughter misheard). So she had worked out that 17.5kg (the start point before I helped - 28% bodyweight) was doing well.

In reducing weight I looked at her food - leaving in pasta and vegetables for the evening meal, dried fruit for snacks, sandwiches, 2 apples and 100g emergency chocolate we took out 24 mars bars (1.4kg) 2 dairy milk (0.2kg) a tub of flapjack (~1kg) 2 bags of boiled sweets (0.4kg). (Someone else was carrying the other meals).

It was frustrating to see her walk off carrying things she wouldnt need like waterproof overtrousers on a blazing hot weekend.

The pack was a 60l Vango Contour - not the lightest but it worked and fits well.

Thanks for all your advice guys, I'll see what we can get the pack down to for the real run in July.