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Regions - Trip reports, destination advice, recommended routes, etc. => Wales => Topic started by: Bigfoot_Mike on 22:43:06, 10/10/18

Title: Bwlch Main in the Dark
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 22:43:06, 10/10/18
I am planning a 2nd attempt on the Welsh 3000s next summer from south to north (the last failed attempt was over 25 years ago). I may be mad, but I had the thought of including the 3000 foot tops, which means adding Bwlch Main. The plan would be to start in the dark and cross Bwlch Main for sunrise around Snowdon summit and have some light for the traverse of Crib Goch. I have previously ascended at night via the Miners Track.


Is this ascent viable in the dark? If so, which of the routes up would you recommend? I don’t really have the opportunity for a daytime recce, except maybe the day before the attempt.


Thanks in advance,


Mike
Title: Re: Bwlch Main in the Dark
Post by: phil1960 on 07:42:18, 11/10/18
Good luck with that  O0  I’ve done Bwlch Main in thick fog and rain which was easy enough with care, but in the dark I would suggest even more care and a decent headtorch and it should be fine.
Title: Re: Bwlch Main in the Dark
Post by: ninthace on 12:46:08, 11/10/18
Wouldn't have thought it a problem in good visibility with a decent torch provided you realise you have got there and don't just blunder into it. If you are wanting to do Crib Goch in daylight the chances are it would starting to get light by the time you are crossing Bwlch Main anyway.  My concern would be the approach route - what sort of navaid will you be using?
Title: Re: Bwlch Main in the Dark
Post by: Dyffryn Ardudwy on 12:48:31, 11/10/18
Bwlch Main is not that dangerous, as there is a distinct and clear path throughout its length and unlike Crib Goch, its quite wide as well, so its possible to use this route, but it will just add more distance to an already 35+mile journey.
The thing with the Welsh 3000s route, is that you first have to ascend Snowdon, and descend from Foel Fras, which will add a further 9-10miles on top of the 27mile route, which ever direction you choose.

You would be far better off just using the PYG track to ascend Snowdon, skipping out Bwlch Main altogether, because any long distance route over the whole of Northern Snowdonia that is approaching 36 miles and possibly more in length is going to be a tough undertaking, so why make it any more demanding.

Get hold of a copy of Ron Claytons book on the Welsh 3000 route, it shows all the different routes and even offers advice on saving time if your after the record.

Ascending Snowdon via Bwlch Main from Rhydd Ddu, is a novel idea, but its far better to get to the top of Snowdon by its shortest way, the PYG, then its just one heck of a long slog to Foel Fras.
Title: Re: Bwlch Main in the Dark
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 13:22:00, 11/10/18
I am not so worried about the danger of Bwlch Main. I am more interested in route finding in the dark on the main Rhyd Ddu path, or the South Ridge from Rhyd Ddu or Watkin Path. If time allows, I would scout out the lower portions of the route on the day before the attempt. Currently my navigation aids would be map, compass and torch.


I am aware of the distances involved, having tried before via the Miners Track. Is the distance and height gain really that much more significant starting over Bwlch Main? On my last attempt I found the biggest issue was forgetting to eat. With a start at 0200 and breakfast at 0130, it would have paid to eat again before reaching the summit of Elidir Fawr, given the effort involved.
Title: Re: Bwlch Main in the Dark
Post by: Dyffryn Ardudwy on 15:09:54, 11/10/18
Distance wise, traversing the Rhydd Ddu path via Bwlch Main, is an interesting and different alternative to the Miners and PYG tracks.
The only difficulties i can see, would be route finding in poor visibility.
Bwlch Main is quite an exposed section of the upper reaches of the Rhydd Ddu path, and is very exposed in strong winds, but its far far safer than Crib Goch.
There are no real navigation issues using the Rhydd Ddu path to the top of Snowdon in darkness, but its a very strange alternative to reach the top of Snowdon, although its an interesting approach, and probably not used by many attempting the 3000s, as it involves a bit more distance on an already very long day out.

When attempting the Welsh 3000s, you need as much energy in reserve for those final Carneddau miles, and adding  more mileage onto a already very long and arduous route, just because you have thought of a novel and different route, makes little sense.

Not that i think using the Rhydd Path is a bad idea, its not, but you want to try and make the welsh 3000s as straight forward as possible.

If the weather is suspect, the Miners or PYG tracks are the best routes to get to the top, as their the quickest, and finding that the wind is too strong via Bwlch Main will put pay to any attempt on the 3000s.

It took me two attempts to complete the 3000s in one day, and on the first attempt back in 1989, it took me nearly 17hrs, far too long,  simply because i was unsure of the exact route and shortcuts available, and i had carried insufficient food and water.


Any 3000s attempt is going to leave you very tired at the end, so it makes more sense to reach the top of Snowdon feeling as refreshed as possible.


Experimenting on differing approaches to the top of Snowdon can be left for another day, when you know you will not be walking close on 36+miles.




Ive now managed the full distance in just under 9hrs 23min, but that was only after knowing the route like the back of my hand, and being able to attempt it, when the weather was perfect.


Your main objective is to finish this magnificent walk, and the best solution is to get to the top of Snowdon by the quickest route possible.
Title: Re: Bwlch Main in the Dark
Post by: Owen on 20:20:25, 11/10/18
I have done the Welsh 3000's three or four time all quite a while ago now as I don't live so near anymore. I can't see any advantage in starting via the PYG or Miners track. Doing it that way around would leave you descending Crib Goch and then presumable the north ridge of Crib Goch into Cwm Glas Mawr and ending up by the CC hut Ynys Ettws. You'd then have a long walk down the very busy narrow road with no foot path all the way to Nant Peris, not a safe place to be.


I've always started with Crib Goch, Crib y Ddysgl, Garnedd Ugain and then Snowdon summit. If you want to do Bwlch Main it's just a short out and back from here, should only add twenty minutes to your day. From Snowdon summit follow the Llanberis path down as far as the half way station. Go under the railway line at the bridge and there's a good path (not marked on my 1:50,000 map) that goes to Nant Peris. You then only have to cross the road before starting up Elidir Fawr.


I've done it, timing it so as to be up around Crib Goch's ridge at dawn. I've also timed it to be there just before dusk when I did the route overnight. Another tip is when you descend Tryfan follow the path down the west side of the mountain and around under the Milestone Buttress. Don't go to Ogwen Cottage, instead head to the other end of Llyn Ogwen to Tal y Llyn Ogwen and follow the Afon Lloer up. Just before you get to the Tarn take the ridge on the left and climb it to Pen yr Ole Wen. This is a much more gentler way up the mountain than flogging up the loose scree slopes from the cottage.   


When are you planning to do it? Obviously, if you want to do it in day light you'll need to do it around mid summer, but it can be quite good fun doing some or all of it in the dark.   
Title: Re: Bwlch Main in the Dark
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 20:35:13, 11/10/18
Thanks Owen. I had intended to start off very early up to Snowdon summit in the dark and the down Crib Goch + North Ridge. I didn’t want to ascend CG in the dark or start too late. I have gone up by the Miners Track in full darkness previously. I agree with you that the walk down the road to Nant Peris is horrible, especially when followed by the slog up Elidir Fawr. I will consider your suggestion of starting with CG. An alternative I was considering was to use the Foxes / Goat Path from CG North Ridge back to Pen Y Pass and the via the PyG and Miners Track to Bwlch Tryfan. this does add miles, but avoids the road and Elidir Fawr slog.


I was intending to use the route you suggested to descend Tryfan, having done this before, and then past Glan Dena to start the Carneddau.
Title: Re: Bwlch Main in the Dark
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 20:43:14, 11/10/18
Thanks Dyffryn Ardudwy. I don’t mind adding a bit of distance to add some interest, or to make a slightly different challenge. It looks like Bwlch Main would be the only 3000 foot top not on my original route. It would be a shame to miss it, especially as I will be travelling down from NE Scotland with a few fellow middle aged misfits. We won’t mind taking a while to complete our expedition, most of us being tortoises rather than hares. Perhaps a detour from Snowdon to Bwlch Main, as suggested by Owen, might be slightly easier.
Title: Re: Bwlch Main in the Dark
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 20:45:56, 11/10/18
Phil1960 and ninthace, thank you for your input on Bwlch Main. I suppose the main challenge will be route finding in the dark.
Title: Re: Bwlch Main in the Dark
Post by: Dyffryn Ardudwy on 13:16:02, 12/10/18
The decent into Cwm Glas Mawr is actually the quickest way to save valuable time, and possibly energy.
I know none of us are after the amazing record of 4hrs 19min, but if one touches the summit of Crib Goch, which is a small cairn of stones not far from the pinnacles above Bwlch Goch, and then returns the way you came back to  Bwlch Goch.
You then go down the easy scree slope in Cwm Glas.

Joss Naylor, and everyone who is in a hurry, have used this route, as its the quickest route down into Nant Peris, and a lot of it is on fairly easy  grass, with a few easy rocks to navigate.


Navigating down Cwm Glas is very straight forward, as the way down is never really in doubt, there are many safe routes and paths down into the lower cwm and it saves considerable time however fast or slow you are going.


Its one of those remote areas of the National Park, that few visitors bother to explore, seeing Dinas Mott and the jagged cliffs of Crib Goch above, it looks very intimidating, but its not, its very straight forward, as long as the visibility is good.

After all, saving considerable time on the Snowdon section, may result in reaching Foel Fras before darkness, still shattered and tired, but completing the 3000s in one outing is all about saving distance and valuable time.

This is where the Ron Clayton book comes into its own, as it shows every single route and alternative for those attempting the 3000s in one day.
Title: Re: Bwlch Main in the Dark
Post by: Mel on 13:26:10, 12/10/18
The OP's question is about route finding in the dark not shaving a few minutes off the world record :-)
Title: Re: Bwlch Main in the Dark
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 13:27:20, 12/10/18
The decent into Cwm Glas Mawr is actually the quickest way to save valuable time, and possibly energy.
I know none of us are after the amazing record of 4hrs 19min, but if one touches the summit of Crib Goch, which is a small cairn of stones not far from the pinnacles above Bwlch Goch, and then returns the way you came back to  Bwlch Goch.
You then go down the easy scree slope in Cwm Glas.

Joss Naylor, and everyone who is in a hurry, have used this route, as its the quickest route down to Nant Peris.

After all, saving considerable time on the Snowdon section, may result in reaching Foel Fras before darkness, still shattered and tired, but completing the 3000s in one outing is all about saving distance and valuable time.

This is where the Ron Clayton book comes into its own, as it shows every single route and alternative for those attempting the 3000s in one day.


I wouldn’t miss a traverse of Crib Goch to to descend from Bwlch Goch. For me it is not about the shortest or fastest route. There has to be some interest and excitement as well, not that Cwm Glas Mawr is boring. I may well add some distance to the walk to avoid the walk down to Nant Peris and the slog up Elidir Fawr. I will look into starting via CG and descending to Nant Peris from near Clogwyn station. I might also use the Miners Track from PyG as an alternate route in the Glyders. I still have 9 months to get fitter and plan our route.
Title: Re: Bwlch Main in the Dark
Post by: Dyffryn Ardudwy on 13:42:13, 12/10/18
If your ascending Snowdon in the dark, ALWAYS use the most direct and easiest routes to the summit.
As we all know, the Summer weather can be unpredictable, so ascending Snowdon via a route that is very exposed in poor conditions, may put pay to any attempts on a 3000s in a day.

I can remember back in the early 90s, making my way up the Llanberis path in June , for an early start on the 3000s, but the weather was so windy, that it was impossible to stand above Clogwen, even though the visibility was good, that put pay to any attempt on the 3000s.

If you miss Elidir Fawr, and use the Miners track from the Pen Y Gwrydd then the whole 3000s will be a waste of time, as you will have missed several summits along the way, making route planning and timing more important for a successful very long day out.

Its 15 summits or nothing, there's no point in adjusting the route to suit your mood, because if its the Welsh 3000s you intend completing, Elidir Fawr, Y Garn and the entire Glyders must be traversed.
Title: Re: Bwlch Main in the Dark
Post by: Owen on 14:24:56, 12/10/18

If your ascending Snowdon in the dark, ALWAYS use the most direct and easiest routes to the summit.


Why? It's just as dark on any route. I've done the whole route in the dark and had great fun doing it.

As we all know, the Summer weather can be unpredictable, so ascending Snowdon via a route that is very exposed in poor conditions, may put pay to any attempts on a 3000s in a day.


So don't do it when the weather isn't good.

I can remember back in the early 90s, making my way up the Llanberis path in June , for an early start on the 3000s, but the weather was so windy, that it was impossible to stand above Clogwen, even though the visibility was good, that put pay to any attempt on the 3000s.


Should have read the weather forecast then.


Title: Re: Bwlch Main in the Dark
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 16:56:44, 12/10/18
If your ascending Snowdon in the dark, ALWAYS use the most direct and easiest routes to the summit.
As we all know, the Summer weather can be unpredictable, so ascending Snowdon via a route that is very exposed in poor conditions, may put pay to any attempts on a 3000s in a day.

I can remember back in the early 90s, making my way up the Llanberis path in June , for an early start on the 3000s, but the weather was so windy, that it was impossible to stand above Clogwen, even though the visibility was good, that put pay to any attempt on the 3000s.

If you miss Elidir Fawr, and use the Miners track from the Pen Y Gwrydd then the whole 3000s will be a waste of time, as you will have missed several summits along the way, making route planning and timing more important for a successful very long day out.

Its 15 summits or nothing, there's no point in adjusting the route to suit your mood, because if its the Welsh 3000s you intend completing, Elidir Fawr, Y Garn and the entire Glyders must be traversed.


I obviously won’t miss the Glyders. From Bwlch Tryfan it would be a ‘quick’ up and down of Tryfan via the south ridge and then a reverse of the normal route over the Glyders and Y Garn to Elidir Fawr. Descent to Ogwen would then be via Cwm Cwyion or Y Garn NE ridge. To me that is more interesting than the road plus the normal route up Elidir Fawr. I know it will add some distance, but long walks are as much about the mind as the body.


I haven’t settled on a fixed route as yet. I may have a preferred route and a plan B if the weather is not so good. If the weather is even worse, Plan C would be to do something else, as the mountains will still be there in the future.


In the end I will choose a route that has a balance of interest, challenge and possibility of finishing.
Title: Re: Bwlch Main in the Dark
Post by: Dyffryn Ardudwy on 17:27:53, 12/10/18
This will place so much unnecessary distance on an already very long day.
The best route for the 3000s is to use the tried and trusted direction as far as Tryfan, then depending on the walkers stamina and energy, to either use the Glan Denna route to reach Pen Yr Ole Wen, or the energy sapping direct South ridge.

Ive now completed the full distance, five times, and one can only really experiment on differing route possibilities after the completion of Tryfan.

Unless your confident on doing the entire round in under 11 hrs, then swapping and changing the route is virtually destroying any possibilities of a successful attempt in a day.


Navigation in the Carneddau in pitch darkness is far from easy, far harder than on Snowdon.

The entire route from Llanberis or Pen Y Pass, to Abergwyngregyn is near enough 37miles of the toughest walking in Southern Britain.

When i managed my first successful day outing, in just over 17hrs, it was using the quickest direction, from  Snowdon to Foel Fras, the route you have decided upon, and that was  without stopping, apart from refilling my Camelbak in the waterfall behind Ogwn Cottage.

All my eating was done whilst i was in motion, because i knew a successful one day 3000s could not be achieved in daylight hours if one wasted time scoffing food at a cafe.


I realise most people start early, just as dawn is breaking, but its far better to finish such a huge adventure in the daylight.


Walking around with legs that can barely move, in pitch darkness on top of Foel Fras, is not advisable, especially when you still have nearly six miles further to crawl.

I did finish in the dark, simply because i got badly dehydrated, and was totally spent by the time i reached llewellyn, but all my other successful attempts have been in daylight hours.



All this is fine if the weather is good, but unless you live on the doorstep and can choose the perfect conditions (Cool and sunny), then any attempt at a 3000s
Title: Re: Bwlch Main in the Dark
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 17:59:50, 12/10/18
When I mention starting in the dark I mean at around 0200. So, the ascent of Snowdon will be in darkness and sunrise somewhere around the summit.  I expect to take more than 11 hours including the walk in and walk back out. In the summer days will be long, so I would expect to be coming off the Carneddau before total darkness.  When we get to Pen Yr Ole Wen, we will make a decision about continuing. This will take into account time of day, weather and condition of the group. On my last attempt we stopped here. Perhaps we will do so again. If so, we will still have had a good day in the mountains. We will start intending to finish, but the journey is more important than the destination.


Perhaps in the end I will follow the traditional route, but I am not one for doing something just because everyone else does it, or taking the easier option. I am taking the time now to explore all the options, before settling on a favourite. I quite like Owen’s suggestion of starting with CG and descending directly to Nant Peris. I would obviously start later if taking this option.