Berghaus arran jacket failure. Waterproofness nonsense?

[ninthace]

When my Altbergs were resoled, the company told me the membrane had worn through up by the toes.  Has not made a hap'porth of difference, they still only leak through the hole in the top.

[Birdman]

Baffled why we have had such different experience on leather boots retaining “waterproofing”. The pair I’ve used most in recent years have been Zamberlan Ultalights—-had those for about 4 years, done over 3000 miles (been re-soled)...and they still have a good level of waterproofness.

Perhaps we just use our boots in different ways and/ or define "waterproofness" in a different way.


Much of my walking passes peatbogs in Scotland, where you are often walking for long periods of time through several inches of water. So the point where the leather creases is submerged when this happens. Peatbogs are also acidic, which is not very good for leather and dissolves oils, fat and wax. If on the other hand I am merely walking in the rain on otherwise dry ground, my boots are not likely to leak because the water simply runs of. Rainwater is also not acidic, so more gentle on the boots.


When you write "...and they still have a good level of waterproofness.", do you mean water resistance or really waterproof? For me waterproof means that I can walk through water for long periods of time and not a single drop comes in. When I say that my boots start leaking after 500km, I mean that at this point I start noticing for the first time that SOME moisture (a few drops) have leaked into my boot after walking through water or bogs for long periods of time (not merely walking through a puddle).

[Birdman]

When my Altbergs were resoled, the company told me the membrane had worn through up by the toes.  Has not made a hap'porth of difference, they still only leak through the hole in the top.

Yes me too. I always get holes in the goretex where my big toe hits the top. However, this is only a minor source of leakage in my case.


The leakage always starts at the sides at the point where the leather creases. After the boots get older and become more battered (depends a lot on the terrain) I also start getting leakage from the front because the front of the sole starts delaminating or the protection in the front starts giving way. It looks like the water manages to get in between the sole and the leather. This can probably be solved by resoling, but I don't find it worth the money because at this point the boots already leak on the sides. At this point I simply demote the boots to dayhiking boots / fairweather boots.

[pauldawes]

Perhaps we just use our boots in different ways and/ or define "waterproofness" in a different way.


Much of my walking passes peatbogs in Scotland, where you are often walking for long periods of time through several inches of water. So the point where the leather creases is submerged when this happens. Peatbogs are also acidic, which is not very good for leather and dissolves oils, fat and wax. If on the other hand I am merely walking in the rain on otherwise dry ground, my boots are not likely to leak because the water simply runs of. Rainwater is also not acidic, so more gentle on the boots.


When you write "...and they still have a good level of waterproofness.", do you mean water resistance or really waterproof? For me waterproof means that I can walk through water for long periods of time and not a single drop comes in. When I say that my boots start leaking after 500km, I mean that at this point I start noticing for the first time that SOME moisture (a few drops) have leaked into my boot after walking through water or bogs for long periods of time (not merely walking through a puddle).

Cheers. You’ve explained the mystery away.


I tend to do large bulk of my walking nowadays in the Dark and White Peak on pretty good paths...and usually stick to 10 milers or below....I’m working the boots far less for shorter periods in more benign conditions than you do yours.


(By good level of waterproofness I meant...at the end of one of my 10 milers in constant rain my feet still feel comfortable and dry. But..pretty sure same boot that I find waterproof probably wouldn’t stand up to one of your Scottish bog trotting epics.)

[Ronin83]

I tend to disagree..I think it pretty likely jacket is leaking.


In a way that’s immaterial, I think. This is a jacket which Ronin knows well, has maintained properly, and it has shown a marked deterioration in performance after 2 years.


The issue is how acceptable it is for performance to drop substantially in that time. Barring extraordinary usage or abusage...I think fall off in 2 years is darn disappointing, and suggests an original defect in design or materials.

Exactly, thank you!
I know the difference between sweat build up and my jacket being soaked through and taking several days to dry out.


If it was soaked that bad by sweat then 1. I'd be dead of dehydration and 2. The jacket is clearly not breathable.


Anyway, I'm gonna contact berghaus and see what they say then let you know

[archaeoroutes]

I have rarely had a Goretex garment which retained its waterproofness more than a few years. A few have, but they were really top end.
I'm very much of the comfortable but wet brigade - I don't mind getting wet as long as I stay comfortable and know it will dry quickly*. After all, very few hiking outfits will withstand thigh-deep rivers, kneeling in a bog, etc.
* properly cold winters remote from shelter are different, but then you don't have rain to contend with

Standing in a shower is a good first test, but walking/rubbing your arms around under the shower is even better. I've known many garments where standing under a shower and it runs off, rubbing to simulate activity pushes it through (and I'm not talking anything strenuous enough for it to be sweat).

[Ronin83]

Update: berghaus did reply and asked for photos, proof of purchase etc. Sent it all over, but didn't hear back. Sent another email to check up and got a reply saying they haven't received the photos. Checked my sent folder and I have definitely sent them.
Ever feel you're being given the runaround?

[gunwharfman]

YES, definitely! I bought two pairs of Odlo boxer underpants, £15 each. The design and the material used is great BUT the elastic waistband is useless! It has limited stretch and when being worn the waistband folds over and acts as an elastic band around my hips. I wrote to Odlo about it and did get a reply, waffle of course! I replied to the waffle and got more waffle! They offered me 20% discount as well which I took to be a bribe to shut me up, but I refuse to use it and I'm not going to buy Odlo again until their product improves. For example, my £3.99 Decathlon boxer underwear waistbands are perfect, loads of stretch and they dont roll into an elastic band. My £15 BAM bamboo boxer underwear are almost perfect as well, just a bit too wide for me.

What I want is the Odlo design and material with the Decathlon waist band. Is that asking for too much???

[richardh1905]

Update: berghaus did reply and asked for photos, proof of purchase etc. Sent it all over, but didn't hear back. Sent another email to check up and got a reply saying they haven't received the photos. Checked my sent folder and I have definitely sent them.
Ever feel you're being given the runaround?

Do let us know the outcome, Ronin.

[Ronin83]

The latest response from berghaus....  
Thanks for your email and the attached photos.  

So that we can get a better idea of the problem we’ll need you to send it to our expert Product Assurance Team to give it the once over. Please can you send it to our address:

Ref:
Berghaus Product Assurance,
12 Colima Avenue,
Sunderland Enterprise Park,
Sunderland,
Tyne and Wear,
SR5 3XB,
United Kingdom.

So that we can give you a speedy response here’s some tips to make it nice and easy.

1. Make sure whatever you’re sending us is clean and dry. We only like mud outdoors!
2. Give us a clue as to what’s wrong. Write a quick note or covering letter with your name, address, email and phone number.
3. In your note please tell us the details of the problem.
4. Add your reference number 00542844 to the note. This makes it really easy to identify you.

As soon as it lands we’ll get our Product Assurance Team onto it straight away and then we’ll get back to you as soon as we can.

Just one more thing! Our site is really secure and only postal or courier services are allowed to deliver, so you wouldn’t be able to drop it off yourself. This makes sure parcels are checked in, recorded and processed properly, giving you a faster service. So, just pop it in the post and we’ll take it from there.

We’re sorry we can’t reimburse your return postage costs, but hopefully we’ll be able to sort out your problem really quickly once we receive the return.  
   
Many thanks

Customer Service Advisor

Berghaus

[pauldawes]

The latest response is reasonable (I think) by itself...easy to accept that their specialist team will need to examine coat to establish exactly why waterproofing has tailed off.


Though they don’t “err on side of generosity” by failing to provide return postage costs...hopefully they will reconsider that, if they find a fault in the jacket.


 And certainly puzzling why they couldn’t tell you all this straight away rather than wait for you to chase them up, then ask you to resend photos already sent, etc.


Fingers crossed it goes well from here on.

[Ronin83]

Good news! Berghaus have examined the jacket and agreed to replace due to fault.


See, I'm not crazy! Lol


Actually with a bit of persistence they've been quite good in the end, except the postage situation which isn't the end of the world.


Here's their response...


"We are in receipt of the ARRAN SHELL JKT AM BLU/BLU SM  recently returned to us for inspection.  May we first of all say how sorry we are that you have had cause to contact us and for any inconvenience this matter may have caused.  We have inspected the item and acknowledge the problem indicated in your correspondence and we are pleased to inform you that we are arranging for a replacement item to be dispatched to you as soon as possible.  We no longer have any stock of the returned colour, we could replace with ARRAN SHELL JKT AM DKBLU/DKBLU, please advise your happy with the replacement colour Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention and for giving us the opportunity to resolve the matter amicably.  Kind regards Customer Service Team – Pentland Brands"  

[sussamb]

Good news 

[richardh1905]

Result!

[pauldawes]