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Main Boards => Gear => Topic started by: beefy on 11:09:40, 21/06/18

Title: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: beefy on 11:09:40, 21/06/18
This is a $700 tent  :o



https://youtu.be/yQGDZItXroQ (https://youtu.be/yQGDZItXroQ)

Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: NeilC on 14:53:07, 21/06/18
This is a $700 tent  :o

https://youtu.be/yQGDZItXroQ (https://youtu.be/yQGDZItXroQ)


Hmm that doesn't look like an enjoyable night's sleep.


I must say I'm not convinced by single skins other than my canvas bell tent which is glorious, although at 30KG it's a bit heavy for solo backpacking.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 16:52:54, 21/06/18
Two skins are better than one!
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: alan de enfield on 17:06:16, 21/06/18
Two skins are better than one!



Would that mean that four would be even better ?
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: Mel on 18:03:35, 21/06/18
Not everyone has four skins though  ;)
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: beefy on 19:47:14, 21/06/18
Not everyone has four skins though  ;)
Mel  :o
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: alan de enfield on 19:52:09, 21/06/18
Not everyone has four skins though  ;)



https://youtu.be/CgbcQIT7BMc



Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: scottk on 20:01:22, 21/06/18
Looks like a really poor pitch. It should be taut and not saggy like the one in the video. I've seen a couple of the z pack tents in the flesh and they are really nice but not my choice for UK weather. For sure the guys I was with didn't have those issues and they either got them dry by leaving the door open while having breakfast or gave it a quick wipe.
Would be a fairer and more objective test if the person had been more competent.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: Mel on 20:31:31, 21/06/18

https://youtu.be/CgbcQIT7BMc (https://youtu.be/CgbcQIT7BMc)


 :D


Eeeh, can't beat a good double entendre  O0    
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: April on 21:06:28, 21/06/18
https://youtu.be/CgbcQIT7BMc

 ;D

How they did that without laughing is beyond me  :)
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: marmottungsten on 23:34:28, 23/06/18
Looks like a really poor pitch. It should be taut and not saggy like the one in the video. I've seen a couple of the z pack tents in the flesh and they are really nice but not my choice for UK weather. For sure the guys I was with didn't have those issues and they either got them dry by leaving the door open while having breakfast or gave it a quick wipe.
Would be a fairer and more objective test if the person had been more competent.


You can be the most competent camper in the world, you will never be able to stop condensation in a single wall tent, especially ones made of DCM, like the Zpacks tents...It may be waterproof, but it isn't exactly breathable, so without leaving the door or doors open a bit, even in the rain, there is nowhere for moisture in your breath to go except onto the inner surface of the tent wall.
 The driest tents are two wall tents which have an inner tent that is mostly made of no see-um mesh. 
The mesh is highly breathable, allowing moisture to pass through and be carried away by the slight draught that the design sets up between the inner and outer walls, before it has time to condense on the inside of the rain fly.
 Most of the best new tent designs utilise mesh inner's as it is the most effective method to stop condensation.  Two wall tents are heavier though, so it comes down to whether you prefer to carry a lighter base weight or being able to enjoy a dry nights sleep.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: marmottungsten on 23:47:08, 23/06/18
;D

How they did that without laughing is beyond me  :)


Apparently it was never supposed to be seen outside of the ITV as it was made for an internal gathering of ITV executives and staff...Luckily for us, it somehow got released.  ;D 
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: Troggy on 09:42:00, 24/06/18
  :) Great stuff Alan!!! They'd be shot by the thought police nowadays.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: Requiem on 10:49:17, 24/06/18
It's weird all these reports of condensation, I've a TN Jupiter Bivvy which sits (like all bivvys) against my sleeping bag and never transfers any condensation at all - Its as if single skinned shelters really need to have a minimal volume and PROPER breathable fabric so the action of you body heating and breathing the small amount of volume within the shelter slowly expels air OUT through the tents skin


It also seems to be about pitching at times. I always pitch the low end of any tent into the prevailing wind, and the wider entrance in lee of the breeze - This always seems to make a vortex at the high end of the tent which against circulates air and keeps condensation down?


Roy
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: gunwharfman on 11:05:00, 24/06/18
Can't say that condensation bothers me much, it happens of course but except for the odd drip, usually because I nudged the mesh by mistake, I've always managed to stay dry. When awake and as soon as I can and if its not raining, I just whip the outer tent off, give it a quick whizz over with a flannel and lay it out flat. Its usually dry, or at least not so wet, by the time I need to pack it. If I have to pack wet I try to find a place sometime later in the day where I can lay it out flat again.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: Troggy on 16:54:02, 24/06/18
Well, I suppose it depoends on a) weather conditions, b) ventilation c) possibly, the design of the tent and if you do any cooking/heating in the tent. I've got a double rainbow, which is single skinned, although I have a breathable, clip in liner that is made or it. The mesh inner, therefore, should deal with the condensation as some folk have positted. but I've sewn in panels of solid inner tent material because...basicaly I'm a wimp and want a warmer tent. I've got to go out in it yet, having just bought a replacement crosspole sleeve off Tarptent.
Although the stitching, fitting looks a tad amateurish (a lot amateurish!) I feel a lot more comfortable with the thought of facing the elements in it.   
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 18:17:08, 24/06/18

.... I've sewn in panels of solid inner tent material because...basicaly I'm a wimp and want a warmer tent. I've got to go out in it yet, having just bought a replacement crosspole sleeve off Tarptent.
Although the stitching, fitting looks a tad amateurish (a lot amateurish!) I feel a lot more comfortable with the thought of facing the elements in it.


Interesting idea.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: scottk on 21:23:05, 24/06/18

You can be the most competent camper in the world, you will never be able to stop condensation in a single wall tent, especially ones made of DCM, like the Zpacks tents...It may be waterproof, but it isn't exactly breathable, so without leaving the door or doors open a bit, even in the rain, there is nowhere for moisture in your breath to go except onto the inner surface of the tent wall.
 The driest tents are two wall tents which have an inner tent that is mostly made of no see-um mesh. 
The mesh is highly breathable, allowing moisture to pass through and be carried away by the slight draught that the design sets up between the inner and outer walls, before it has time to condense on the inside of the rain fly.
 Most of the best new tent designs utilise mesh inner's as it is the most effective method to stop condensation.  Two wall tents are heavier though, so it comes down to whether you prefer to carry a lighter base weight or being able to enjoy a dry nights sleep.


That's a very basic explanation but doesn't really explain the vagaries of weather, temperature, volume, effect of people in tent, wind etc. There are too many variables to state that it is black and white. All my tents are double wall and none are free from condensation unless I have decent ventilation and even then it's not a given. You must choose a tent to suit yourself and the conditions in which it will be used most of the time.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: NeilC on 08:12:35, 25/06/18

That's a very basic explanation but doesn't really explain the vagaries of weather, temperature, volume, effect of people in tent, wind etc. There are too many variables to state that it is black and white. All my tents are double wall and none are free from condensation unless I have decent ventilation and even then it's not a given. You must choose a tent to suit yourself and the conditions in which it will be used most of the time.


I think he's maybe referring to condensation on the inner tent? And I think he's wrong that you need mesh to ensure this. I've had various tents over years with non-mesh inners and all of them have handled condensation on the inner tent fine but all of them, including my fairly meshy TN Coshee have had condensation on the inside of the fly - it's unavoidable as far as I can see. Warm wet breath meets cold waterproof sheet = condensation.


The thing about the ventilation - it has another name - it's called "freezing cold draughts" depending on the weather!
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: NeilC on 08:26:14, 25/06/18
It's weird all these reports of condensation, I've a TN Jupiter Bivvy which sits (like all bivvys) against my sleeping bag and never transfers any condensation at all - Its as if single skinned shelters really need to have a minimal volume and PROPER breathable fabric so the action of you body heating and breathing the small amount of volume within the shelter slowly expels air OUT through the tents skin


Roy


I think you're right about the volume.



They don't seem to have had much luck using breathable membrane fabrics (like Goretex) in tents. It sort of works OK in dry cold climates but very badly in high humidity like we get in the UK. I think the big air gap in a tent isn't ideal for breathable fabrics. Moist warm air will still condense on it, there's no getting away from that. Previous forum posts have established that Goretex doesn't work like the infograms show (vapour just passing through it unchecked). Water adsorbs into he inner layer and diffuses across it to the outside ,but the opposite is far harder so you get a directional fabric. For that diffusion to work well, it really helps if the humidity and temp on the inside face of the fabric is much greater than the outside face. In near 100% humid Welsh rain conditions and a couple of feet air gap, the difference is very slight and so the water movement is very slow.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: April on 08:51:50, 25/06/18
Warm wet breath meets cold waterproof sheet = condensation.
The thing about the ventilation - it has another name - it's called "freezing cold draughts" depending on the weather!

 ;D Spot on. On Saturday we pitched close to 800m on a Lake District fell. The wind chill was about 3 or 4 degrees, if we'd had an all mesh inner we would have been freezing inside the tent. MT says he camps in the Surrey hills, the highest being 292m, his tent might suit for the camping he does but wouldn't suit anyone wanting to camp up north higher up.

Condensation can happen or not happen depending on the conditions. Having an all mesh inner does not stop condensation.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: Owen on 13:03:25, 25/06/18
In any tent you are the main source of water vapour, from your breath and sweat. Water vapour molecules are very small so they will pass straight through the weave of un-proofed nylon. When they hit the cold proofed outer flysheet they can't go through it and as it's cold condensation forms. If enough condensation collects it will form drips, if your tent's inner is made of tight weave solid nylon these drips will spread out due the the surface tension and dry quite quickly. On the other hand if your tent has a mesh inner the drips will go through and land on your sleeping bag. So, having solid nylon at least above you is a good idea. Having mesh on the sides of your inner tent will offer less resistance to wind, whether this is a bad or good thing will depend on the ambient temperature. Having well designed vents in the outer flysheet will go a long way to reducing the build up of condensation on the underside of the fly.
       
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 14:17:22, 25/06/18

;D Spot on. On Saturday we pitched close to 800m on a Lake District fell. The wind chill was about 3 or 4 degrees, if we'd had an all mesh inner we would have been freezing inside the tent. MT says he camps in the Surrey hills, the highest being 292m, his tent might suit for the camping he does but wouldn't suit anyone wanting to camp up north higher up.

Condensation can happen or not happen depending on the conditions. Having an all mesh inner does not stop condensation.


This is what puts me off buying an ultra lightweight tent with a mesh inner (as well as the cost). What is the point in pinching a few tens of grams on the inner if you are freezing and have to take extra clothes or a warmer bag?


They are maybe a good idea in more benign climates, but for Lake District fell tops, I would say not.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: alan de enfield on 14:22:30, 25/06/18

This is what puts me off buying an ultra lightweight tent with a
mesh inner [/color]  (as well as the cost). What is the point in pinching a few tens of grams on the inner if you are freezing and have to take extra clothes or a warmer bag?


They are maybe a good idea in more benign climates, but for Lake District fell tops, I would say not.



Many simply look at each component in isolation without considering the effects on other parts of the 'system'.


The comfort / practicality of the 'total system' is the overall measure. As you suggest 'robbing Peter to pay Paul' is not always the most efficient, or, cost effective.



Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: Troggy on 22:26:31, 25/06/18
Richard 1905, re the double rainbow, I'll be taking it out on Wednesday to give it a try, although the weather's not likely to give it much of a test! What my thinking was, I'd be able to open the 4 doors a lot more, without freezing as I might do with just mesh. I think the solid liner will help a lot in the cooler weather, it covers both ends and the top, so effectively gives me a solid inner for those areas. I might pass the idea on to Henry Shires and make my fortune...on the other hand!
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: marmottungsten on 23:59:09, 25/06/18

I think he's maybe referring to condensation on the inner tent? And I think he's wrong that you need mesh to ensure this. I've had various tents over years with non-mesh inners and all of them have handled condensation on the inner tent fine but all of them, including my fairly meshy TN Coshee have had condensation on the inside of the fly - it's unavoidable as far as I can see. Warm wet breath meets cold waterproof sheet = condensation.


The thing about the ventilation - it has another name - it's called "freezing cold draughts" depending on the weather!


No, because the mesh lets moisture out but does not let draughts through...It is the very definition of breathable!

Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: marmottungsten on 00:19:24, 26/06/18
In any tent you are the main source of water vapour, from your breath and sweat. Water vapour molecules are very small so they will pass straight through the weave of un-proofed nylon. When they hit the cold proofed outer flysheet they can't go through it and as it's cold condensation forms. If enough condensation collects it will form drips, if your tent's inner is made of tight weave solid nylon these drips will spread out due the the surface tension and dry quite quickly. On the other hand if your tent has a mesh inner the drips will go through and land on your sleeping bag. So, having solid nylon at least above you is a good idea. Having mesh on the sides of your inner tent will offer less resistance to wind, whether this is a bad or good thing will depend on the ambient temperature.


This is not the case Owen...No-See-Um mesh, used on most modern ultralight US designed tents, has a high resistance to wind penetration but still allows moist vapors like breath through easily (it is highly breathable).  By guying out the fly at the bottom of the tent, via the webbing loops provided for this purpose, a small draught is set up in the gap between the inner tent and the fly, carrying any moist air away before it has a chance to condense on the inner wall of the fly...So you actually stay drier!  You cannot feel any draught once you are in the mesh inner tent, because the mesh does not allow wind through, so you do not get cold inside either.  Using such mesh is not just there to save weight, it is to keep you drier too.

Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: April on 06:47:07, 26/06/18
No, because the mesh lets moisture out but does not let draughts through

No-See-Um mesh, used on most modern ultralight US designed tents, has a high resistance to wind penetration

We have a mixed inner in our US designed tent which uses No-See-Um mesh. There is a big difference in the draught that comes through the mesh as opposed to the solid inner - there was a very cold draught coming through the mesh on Saturday, no draught through the inner. We were 800m up on a mountain in the Lake District. Where do you pitch your tent MT? Below 292m on the Surrey Hills?
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: NeilC on 07:18:17, 26/06/18

No, because the mesh lets moisture out but does not let draughts through...It is the very definition of breathable!


Which much be why they make windproof jackets out of no see um mesh...


There's nothing magic about that mesh. It's just mesh that is a bit finer than standard mosquito mesh. They also call it midge netting. It's not a technical standard and just how fine it is varies from maker to maker. It can be very fine or not so fine . The finest examples are more wind resistant but less ventilating, and visa versa. In the US it's common on windows a screen doors.


Plenty of other non-coated fabrics are very breathable too. Most poeple do not get condensation on their tent inners. Most poeple do get it on their fly whether they have a mesh inner or not.


 It's not windproof but merely a bit more resistant that wider mesh. It's just fine enough to stop smaller biting insects. It has better ventilation than denser material but less wind resistance and less ability to trap warmth. That's why tent makers for colder climates only use panels of it above body height to improve ventilation but avoid draughts. It's not a miracle. It has ups and down like all materials.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: alan de enfield on 07:41:52, 26/06/18

Which much be why they make windproof jackets out of no see um mesh...


There's nothing magic about that mesh. It's just mesh that is a bit finer than standard mosquito mesh. They also call it midge netting. It's not a technical standard and just how fine it is varies from maker to maker. It can be very fine or not so fine . The finest examples are more wind resistant but less ventilating, and visa versa. In the US it's common on windows a screen doors.


Plenty of other non-coated fabrics are very breathable too. Most poeple do not get condensation on their tent inners. Most poeple do get it on their fly whether they have a mesh inner or not.


 It's not windproof but merely a bit more resistant that wider mesh. It's just fine enough to stop smaller biting insects. It has better ventilation than denser material but less wind resistance and less ability to trap warmth. That's why tent makers for colder climates only use panels of it above body height to improve ventilation but avoid draughts. It's not a miracle. It has ups and down like all materials.





Where is the 'like this post' button ?
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: Troggy on 07:55:11, 26/06/18
I must be just thinking I'm flippin freezing, when I'm in a mesh inner tent and a cold wind blows. Thankfully, I now realise that I just Think I'm cold! Mind you, now I've sewn in the material panels, I can think I'm warmer :)
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 07:58:41, 26/06/18

You cannot feel any draught once you are in the mesh inner tent, because the mesh does not allow wind through, so you do not get cold inside either.  ...


I think that very much depends upon what sort of weather conditions you are camping in, marmot (and the density of the mesh); a gentle breeze maybe. But it was force 6, gusting force 7 the other night on my local clifftop. Normally I like to keep the solid inner door open as I sleep, and just rely upon the mesh door; not that night!
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 07:59:28, 26/06/18

I must be just thinking I'm flippin freezing, when I'm in a mesh inner tent and a cold wind blows. Thankfully, I now realise that I just Think I'm cold! Mind you, now I've sewn in the material panels, I can think I'm warmer :)


 ;D
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: Owen on 10:31:37, 26/06/18

This is not the case Owen...No-See-Um mesh, used on most modern ultralight US designed tents, has a high resistance to wind penetration but still allows moist vapors like breath through easily (it is highly breathable).  By guying out the fly at the bottom of the tent, via the webbing loops provided for this purpose, a small draught is set up in the gap between the inner tent and the fly, carrying any moist air away before it has a chance to condense on the inner wall of the fly...So you actually stay drier!  You cannot feel any draught once you are in the mesh inner tent, because the mesh does not allow wind through, so you do not get cold inside either.  Using such mesh is not just there to save weight, it is to keep you drier too.


I have used several tents with mesh or part mesh inners, I can assure you mesh does let the wind through. In the weather we are having right now this can be a good thing, roll the doors back and let the breeze through whilst the mesh keeps the midges out. Come October it won't be quite so welcome.


(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1600x1200q90/922/qQyQrr.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/pmqQyQrrj)
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: fernman on 13:31:00, 26/06/18
I am in full agreement with those who say it can be draughty in a mesh inner in wind.
As well as a small triangular mesh panel at either end of my Zephyros inner, the upper half of its door is mesh along its full length.
In May 2015 I was pitched on a 600m ridge, behind a small outcrop but the wind was coming around either side of it. Although it was probably only about 20 mph, I could feel the stronger gusts blowing through the side of of my sleeping bag that was nearest the door.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: FOX160 on 23:50:07, 27/06/18
Love threads like these, First off it’s obvious to me the Tent isn’t set up correctly
My last 2 tents have been single skin and I doubt I will want a double skin tent ever again unless it’s way past minus 2. Right now I am I’m my Yamama Mountain Gear Swiftline with all my mesh exposed 
Best £500 pounds I have spent!. Single skin tents are great in the right hands and a new learning curve, just have to play with it.
recently I was on a trip and most of the people with Double wall shelters complained of wet inners I was fine, yes I had some condensation but I just wiped it off.
Right now I am in the UK and I have my Swiftline set up like this.
(http://https://cdn8.bigcommerce.com/s-bdkmv/images/stencil/2048x2048/products/151/1049/IMG_6011__89035.1462924447.jpg?c=2)
(https://cdn8.bigcommerce.com/s-bdkmv/images/stencil/2048x2048/products/151/1049/IMG_6011__89035.1462924447.jpg?c=2)

https://cdn8.bigcommerce.com/s-bdkmv/images/stencil/2048x2048/products/151/1049/IMG_6011__89035.1462924447.jpg?c=2 (https://cdn8.bigcommerce.com/s-bdkmv/images/stencil/2048x2048/products/151/1049/IMG_6011__89035.1462924447.jpg?c=2)
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 06:12:32, 28/06/18

That's an interesting location, fox; where is it?
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: NeilC on 08:11:43, 28/06/18
Love threads like these, First off it’s obvious to me the Tent isn’t set up correctly
My last 2 tents have been single skin and I doubt I will want a double skin tent ever again unless it’s way past minus 2. Right now I am I’m my Yamama Mountain Gear Swiftline with all my mesh exposed 
Best £500 pounds I have spent!. Single skin tents are great in the right hands and a new learning curve, just have to play with it.
recently I was on a trip and most of the people with Double wall shelters complained of wet inners I was fine, yes I had some condensation but I just wiped it off.
Right now I am in the UK and I have my Swiftline set up like this.
(http://https://cdn8.bigcommerce.com/s-bdkmv/images/stencil/2048x2048/products/151/1049/IMG_6011__89035.1462924447.jpg?c=2)



Interesting. So just how open does the tent need to be to avoid condensation?


Say it's a classic autumn night in Wales - humid, rainy and cool - I'd normally have my tent complete done up and I'd expect to see a decent amount of condensation on the fly when striking camp the next morning. That amount of condensation would be a problem were I touching it. How do you avoid that with your single skin?
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: beefy on 08:16:49, 28/06/18

That's an interesting location, fox; where is it?
Looks like sea level


Interesting. So just how open does the tent need to be to avoid condensation?


Say it's a classic autumn night in Wales - humid, rainy and cool - I'd normally have my tent complete done up and I'd expect to see a decent amount of condensation on the fly when striking camp the next morning. That amount of condensation would be a problem were I touching it. How do you avoid that with your single skin? 
 

Exactly, I was just about to post something similar,
And what do you do in wind when the gusts shake all that condensation off, onto your sleeping bag...
Too late to wipe it off the flysheet now  ;D   
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: alan de enfield on 08:26:17, 28/06/18
That's an interesting location, fox; where is it?




The picture is taken from the "Yama Mountain Gear" (A US Company) website.


Fox does carefully say "Right now I am in the UK and I have my Swiftline set up like this."
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 08:27:50, 28/06/18


The picture is taken from the "Yama Mountain Gear" (A US Company) website.


Ah; and here was me thinking that that was somewhere in Britain!
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: beefy on 08:27:57, 28/06/18

The picture is taken from the "Yama Mountain Gear" (A US Company) website.
Oh so you have no pics of actually using the tent then,
What about what Neil and I posted
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 08:30:14, 28/06/18


Right now I am in the UK and I have my Swiftline set up like this.

Where do you normally do your camping, Fox, if you don't mind me asking? And in what sort of conditions?
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: beefy on 08:31:13, 28/06/18
Oh so you have no pics of actually using the tent then,
What about what Neil and I posted
Come on MT,
Let's hear your next load of nonsense  ;D
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: beefy on 08:32:25, 28/06/18
Where do you normally do your camping, Fox, if you don't mind me asking? And in what sort of conditions?
In his garden, twice, then he sells it ;D
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 08:33:13, 28/06/18

In his garden, twice, then he sells it ;D


Ouch!
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 08:34:19, 28/06/18

Come on MT,
Let's hear your next load of nonsense  ;D


He's gone quiet since yesterday.  :o
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: April on 08:40:28, 28/06/18
Single skin tents are great in the right hands and a new learning curve, just have to play with it.

How many nights have you spent in it and where? What were the conditions like?

When you come back and tell us you have spent 20 nights in it in all weather conditions and you hardly got any condensation then your post might have some credibility.

This year we have spent 20 nights in our tent so far. In differing weather conditions. The last few weeks we have had little to no condensation because the ground and air is so dry, sometimes there has been no air movement, sometimes a little. In those 20 nights we have had maybe 4 nights when a lot of condensation has built up, this is due to the weather conditions, not the tent. Cool nights, damp ground, damp air, little wind means you will get some condensation. We don't worry about it! Sometimes you will have condensation and sometimes you won't.

I was just about to post this reply then I saw the new replies  :o
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: NeilC on 08:49:44, 28/06/18
Just looking at the picture more carefully - so is that strictly speaking a single skin design? It looks like it has a mesh inner, at least where the walls are concerned?
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: beefy on 08:51:41, 28/06/18
How many nights have you spent in it and where? What were the conditions like?


Let's hope it's more than his Drift  :D

Quote
Love threads like these, First off it’s obvious to me the Tent isn’t set up correctly    
 

 
 You couldn't pitch your trekkertent, you had to ask me for pictures    ;D
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: FOX160 on 08:52:34, 28/06/18
That's an interesting location, fox; where is it?
Sorry that was a pic from https://www.yamamountaingear.com/swiftline-2P/ (https://www.yamamountaingear.com/swiftline-2P/)  I am hiking round Essex
Think I need start a thread on question and answers based on my experiences in single wall tents
as this is a bit congested now.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 08:54:29, 28/06/18

Sorry that was a pic from https://www.yamamountaingear.com/swiftline-2P/ (https://www.yamamountaingear.com/swiftline-2P/)  I am hiking round Essex
Think I need start a thread on question and answers based on my experiences in single wall tents
as this is a bit congested now.


Thanks Fox.


Perhaps that would be no bad thing, although I remain to be convinced myself.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: beefy on 08:55:14, 28/06/18
Sorry that was a pic from https://www.yamamountaingear.com/swiftline-2P/ (https://www.yamamountaingear.com/swiftline-2P/)  I am hiking round Essex
Think I need start a thread on question and answers based on my experiences in single wall tents
as this is a bit congested now.
So your going to avoid our questions now :D
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: FOX160 on 09:00:32, 28/06/18
In his garden, twice, then he sells it ;D
Like I have said I will create a new thread and explain with my experiences of single skin tents, where to pitch and how to keep warm, plus what type of single skin shelters that will suite UK conditions.
Regarding where I camp is mainly Brecon and anywhere I wish to pitch.
That tent was the Double Rainbow and I will cover that tent too.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 09:07:32, 28/06/18

Like I have said I will create a new thread and explain with my experiences of single skin tents, where to pitch and how to keep warm, plus what type of single skin shelters that will suite UK conditions.
Regarding where I camp is mainly Brecon and anywhere I wish to pitch.
That tent was the Double Rainbow and I will cover that tent too.


I look forward to having a sensible discussion about single skin tents, although my experience of them is zero.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: FOX160 on 09:10:52, 28/06/18
Let's hope it's more than his Drift  :D
 

 
 You couldn't pitch your trekkertent, you had to ask me for pictures   ;D
The reason I asked is that my Drift tent wasn’t correctly made and that I used one of your pictures to explain and then received a refund! And I explained this to you WTF
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: April on 13:43:25, 28/06/18
Like I have said I will create a new thread and explain with my experiences of single skin tents, where to pitch and how to keep warm, plus what type of single skin shelters that will suite UK conditions.

I look forward to this.

My concern when people post about these ultralightweight single skin or all mesh inner tents is that someone inexperienced will buy one on the back of a recommendation because they are so light, not knowing that they may not be suitable if they want to use them wild camping on the higher mountains in the UK or in bad weather. I know people do use them in the hills but the you tube videos I've seen show people freezing their b*ll*cks off and looking miserable if the weather isn't great. Let's face it, the warm dry weather we are having at the moment is not normal. Saying that it was really cold on the higher fells in the Lake District on Saturday, maybe 6 degrees and the wind chill made it even colder. I am so pleased we have a double walled tent. People using these single skin/all mesh tents would have to take warmer sleeping bags or extra clothes to keep warm. So the weight saving on the tent is lost. Or perhaps others don't mind being cold?
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 17:20:25, 28/06/18

I look forward to this.

My concern when people post about these ultralightweight single skin or all mesh inner tents is that someone inexperienced will buy one on the back of a recommendation because they are so light, not knowing that they may not be suitable if they want to use them wild camping on the higher mountains in the UK or in bad weather. I know people do use them in the hills but the you tube videos I've seen show people freezing their b*ll*cks off and looking miserable if the weather isn't great. Let's face it, the warm dry weather we are having at the moment is not normal. Saying that it was really cold on the higher fells in the Lake District on Saturday, maybe 6 degrees and the wind chill made it even colder. I am so pleased we have a double walled tent. People using these single skin/all mesh tents would have to take warmer sleeping bags or extra clothes to keep warm. So the weight saving on the tent is lost. Or perhaps others don't mind being cold?


Agreed. As I see it, it is 'horses for courses', April; single skins and mesh inners might be a good choice for the South Downs Way in the summer, or for the south of France, but NOT for camping high in wild places, especially out of season (in my humble opinion).


If a newcomer to the game is to spend money on a tent, then far better for it to be a good all rounder, preferably at a budget price, rather than an expensive thoroughbred that will be found wanting in some situations. They can go on and buy that thoroughbred once they have the experience to know what they want and can expect from it.


For example, many years ago I lent an old classic Force 10 MK 4 to a friend, and he completed a Scottish coast to coast across the wilds of Sutherland, from Helmsdale to Lochinver, with his two teenage children. It may have been heavy (8kg), and thus far from ideal for backpacking, but it did the job!
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: April on 18:58:42, 28/06/18
If a newcomer to the game is to spend money on a tent, then far better for it to be a good all rounder, preferably at a budget price, rather than an expensive thoroughbred that will be found wanting in some situations. They can go on and buy that thoroughbred once they have the experience to know what they want and can expect from it.

I agree with you Richard, £500 is a lot of money, a newcomer is better to get a good all rounder instead of just going for the lightest weight option.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: Jim Parkin on 20:56:41, 29/06/18

https://youtu.be/CgbcQIT7BMc (https://youtu.be/CgbcQIT7BMc)
Looking at the comments, that was actually made by the cast and not overdubbed.
Gulp
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: FOX160 on 11:22:53, 28/07/18
.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: FOX160 on 11:32:48, 28/07/18
I look forward to this.

My concern when people post about these ultralightweight single skin or all mesh inner tents is that someone inexperienced will buy one on the back of a recommendation because they are so light, not knowing that they may not be suitable if they want to use them wild camping on the higher mountains in the UK or in bad weather. I know people do use them in the hills but the you tube videos I've seen show people freezing their b*ll*cks off and looking miserable if the weather isn't great. Let's face it, the warm dry weather we are having at the moment is not normal. Saying that it was really cold on the higher fells in the Lake District on Saturday, maybe 6 degrees and the wind chill made it even colder. I am so pleased we have a double walled tent. People using these single skin/all mesh tents would have to take warmer sleeping bags or extra clothes to keep warm. So the weight saving on the tent is lost. Or perhaps others don't mind being cold?




If your cold then you have the incorrect cloathing/bag/quilt/pad etc to complete the objective.
Simply user error, similar nonsense you hear when people complain the tents fallen down then claim
the tents rubbish, but the tents intact yet the incorrect stakes have been used


We had a great meet recently in Dartmoor
Richard kindly put a short clip together.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=122&v=qU0LHemz2jw# (https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=122&v=qU0LHemz2jw#)
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: Jim Parkin on 16:02:19, 28/07/18

I think he's maybe referring to condensation on the inner tent? And I think he's wrong that you need mesh to ensure this. I've had various tents over years with non-mesh inners and all of them have handled condensation on the inner tent fine but all of them, including my fairly meshy TN Coshee have had condensation on the inside of the fly - it's unavoidable as far as I can see. Warm wet breath meets cold waterproof sheet = condensation.


The thing about the ventilation - it has another name - it's called "freezing cold draughts" depending on the weather!
Doesn't it  depend on the temperatures of the fabrics relative to the dew point for the humidity at that location ? 

If you have a single-skin permeable tent (e.g. canvas fly) and it's above the dew point, then the water vapour should pass through without condensing.  If it is impermeable, then this can't happen.  If there is a draft, then the humid air might leave the tent before it can condense.

If it is below the dew point, and its, say a canvas fly, then the water vapour would condense, but the cotton can absorb quite a bit, so there could easily be no visible condensation as it's locked up in the material.  This can't happen with a non-absorbent material, so you get visible condensation building up.  Again ventilation could reduce this. 




If your cold then you have the incorrect cloathing/bag/quilt/pad etc to complete the objective.
Simply user error, similar nonsense you hear when people complain the tents fallen down then claim
the tents rubbish, but the tents intact yet the incorrect stakes have been used


We had a great meet recently in Dartmoor
Richard kindly put a short clip together.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=122&v=qU0LHemz2jw# (https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=122&v=qU0LHemz2jw#)
I think this is it.

I would say that my main tent (Luxe Hexpeak) is functionally more like a single-skin tent with a deep bathtub groundseheet than a double skin tent, because the inner is mostly mesh (above, about 18") and it is pretty drafty as a result, although it's generally ok when lying dowmn - but you still get more drafts than if it was a solid inner. 

So far, I've camped down to maybe minus 4 to minus 5 and I would have preferred a solid inner at that temperature.  I was OK, but did have an extra silvered sheet that I got to try and reduce the effect of a radiation frost. 

I do get condensation on the flysheet - including ice in winter but with the slope of the fly, it tends to stick to the fly or run down the inside, rather than drip on the inner mesh
 


Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 18:20:47, 28/07/18
If your cold then you have the incorrect cloathing/bag/quilt/pad etc to complete the objective.



The tent is a factor too, Fox.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: FOX160 on 19:14:15, 28/07/18

The tent is a factor too, Fox.
Disagree. Roughly 24 years back we camped the first week of August in Grizdale Forest in a Double wall tent and the first 2 nights we kept weakening up around 2am freezing, I went to the shop and didn’t buy a new tent but 2 new sleeping bags has ours was +5 but the temps dropped to 0c Simply user error.


Try using this https://andrewskurka.com/2016/five-star-campsites-part-1-introduction/ (https://andrewskurka.com/2016/five-star-campsites-part-1-introduction/)  would also help if your in a double wall tent
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 22:22:32, 28/07/18
@Fox - if you are in a tent that is draughty, then of course it will feel colder than a tent that is not.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: FOX160 on 07:17:47, 29/07/18
@Fox - if you are in a tent that is draughty, then of course it will feel colder than a tent that is not.
Then you have the wrong tent for the situation you are in or you find a sheltered area to pitch it
Again user error. https://andrewskurka.com/2016/five-star-campsites-part-1-introduction/ (https://andrewskurka.com/2016/five-star-campsites-part-1-introduction/)
I pitched in an open area to see how my https://www.tarptent.com/product/motrail/ (https://www.tarptent.com/product/motrail/)  would perform on the back of the American hurricanes we was receiving, I lowered the height of the trekking poles to lower the fly to the ground to kill any drafts and got blown about a bit but had taken my minus 4 quilt and yes woken up a few times but I wasn’t cold and the tent was perfectly fine, so I had the right equipment to complete the objective.
Admittedly I should have found a sheltered spot/area to get out of the winds but that wasn’t my objective at the said time.
Now if I was facing winds from an Hurricane in July in this County I wouldn’t be in a 3season tent but in 4 season tent to complete my objective.


Moans and groans of persons with the wrong equipment to complete their objective.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 07:41:51, 29/07/18
I'm not the one who is moaning, Fox.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 07:43:30, 29/07/18
Now if I was facing winds from an Hurricane in July in this County I wouldn’t be in a 3season tent but in 4 season tent to complete my objective.



So the tent is a factor, after all.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: FOX160 on 10:28:05, 29/07/18

So the tent is a factor, after all.


User error, nothing wrong with the tent !
The user isn’t taking the correct equipment to complete the objective

Classic scenario it’s Summer and it’s windy but I am wearing a t shirt i ask why am I Cold ?
https://andrewskurka.com/2016/five-star-campsites-part-1-introduction/ (https://andrewskurka.com/2016/five-star-campsites-part-1-introduction/)
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 11:04:12, 29/07/18
Whatever....
Far too nice a day to get involved in silly semantics. Mull Head beckons...
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: April on 15:09:10, 29/07/18
If your cold then you have the incorrect cloathing/bag/quilt/pad etc to complete the objective.

So when you say incorrect clothing, you mean you have to take more and probably heavier clothing to compensate because your tent is too cold and draughty. Rather defeats the "objective" if you ask me, the weight of the warmer/extra clothing will be heavier than a suitable inner for this country.

https://andrewskurka.com/2016/five-star-campsites-part-1-introduction/ (https://andrewskurka.com/2016/five-star-campsites-part-1-introduction/)

This link seems to be about camping in the United States, how is this relevant for people wanting to camp in this country? The climate over there is totally different to ours.

We are still waiting for the trip reports or info about where/how many times you have used your hybrid tent and in what conditions each time. Pity you weren't out with us last night in torrential rain and strong winds. It would have been a wee bit draughty and damp for your tent  :)

Have a look at this video from Daveswildcamping
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX2aLR7VBAA

He calls his tent a drip coffin  ;D Fox this man has years of experience wild camping in all conditions. Not user error this, he actually knows what he is doing, his knowledge is based on his experience going out camping and using equipment and not theoretical like your "experience" seems to be.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 17:07:30, 29/07/18
Whatever....
Far too nice a day to get involved in silly semantics. Mull Head beckons...



(https://image.ibb.co/dcHuW8/Mull_Head_Cliffs.jpg)
Mull Head Cliffs a few hours ago. Raining now!


Now where were we? Ah yes; tent choice being a factor in how warm or otherwise you are...


Explain this to me, Fox; if you are in a single skin tent on a cold and wet night, how do you ventilate enough to stop your tent becoming a 'drip coffin', without letting in a lot of cold air; thereby turning the tent into a chilly wind tunnel?


I can just seal my budget tunnel tent; any condensation that forms on the inside of the outer just runs down onto the grass whilst I am nice and snug within the inner.


And why bother with a single skin tent at all, when many modern tents with inners are so light nowadays?
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: FOX160 on 18:04:43, 29/07/18
So when you say incorrect clothing, you mean you have to take more and probably heavier clothing to compensate because your tent is too cold and draughty. Rather defeats the "objective" if you ask me, the weight of the warmer/extra clothing will be heavier than a suitable inner for this country.

This link seems to be about camping in the United States, how is this relevant for people wanting to camp in this country? The climate over there is totally different to ours.

We are still waiting for the trip reports or info about where/how many times you have used your hybrid tent and in what conditions each time. Pity you weren't out with us last night in torrential rain and strong winds. It would have been a wee bit draughty and damp for your tent  :)

Have a look at this video from Daveswildcamping
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX2aLR7VBAA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX2aLR7VBAA)

He calls his tent a drip coffin  ;D Fox this man has years of experience wild camping in all conditions. Not user error this, he actually knows what he is doing, his knowledge is based on his experience going out camping and using equipment and not theoretical like your "experience" seems to be.


Fail to understand how you don’t understand regarding cloathing, I don’t take any cloathing or quilt that I will not be warm in and certainly will not kid myself with a lesser rating of equipment to complete my objective, I only take the correct cloathing where I am and don’t over cloath as that would be more weight to carry than needed.

American camp sites yep we have similar soills within our Forests and believe we have hard packed soil together with rocks and open skies and vermin, so fail to acknowledge your comment.

Regarding rain we’ll we has a group meet which I tagged in Dartmoor on the Friday 20th last week hammered down for 6hrs I slept fine and Condensation was like wetting your finger and draw it across your
hand. The tent was excellent as the day before I nearly had all the fly clipped up.

If I was out last night,  the tent would be fine just like it was last Friday.

Trip reports never do others do the write up plus don’t have social media nor Fr/ U Tube accounts

The https://www.yamamountaingear.com/swiftline-2P/ (https://www.yamamountaingear.com/swiftline-2P/)  only had it nearly 2months
Done weekends only so far around Essex been great including 4day trip in Dartmoor and worked really well
even though of the changing weather.

Firstly the person has not set the Altaplex tent up correctly, he as the rear of the fly pinned directly to the ground, the tent is designed to be vented and breeze to flow through all round. It’s a tent I wouldn’t buy especially having an vestibule near 8”inch gap between the ground to underside of the fly. I have known people to pack up and go home and also know someone that had his Duplex tear in the wind, also this tent is no longer in manufacture.
Again user error.

You may want to send him this https://www.keithfoskett.com/no-solvent-required-the-zpacks-altaplex-shelter-review/ (https://www.keithfoskett.com/no-solvent-required-the-zpacks-altaplex-shelter-review/)
Now this guy I would listen to.

How to set up the Altaplex.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JFObVp43zgU (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JFObVp43zgU)


Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: April on 18:48:05, 29/07/18
Fox, you are completely missing the point I (and others) have been making. If you were out with us last night you would have had to bring more/warmer clothing/gear (more weight) to keep warm than we had to. Your tent is not as warm as ours, simple as that. You will never convince us a hybrid tent made for the US market would be what we want to use here in the UK up north. We go out every weekend just about in all weathers, we like a proper tent  :)

What temperature was it last Friday in Dartmoor? Much warmer than it was in the Lake District last night. You would have been very cold in your tent if you had been with us but you will not take this on board.

What is your objective? You keep mentioning this without saying what it is.

I won't be sending Dave any tips or advice from you, your posts suggest you don't do very much camping  :)
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: Rajboy on 08:42:59, 30/07/18
Yes agree April  O0  bout Dave Murphy being a really experienced camper, but he has always used traditional 2 skin tents. He mentioned in one of his last videos that he wanted to reduce Pack weight and he seems to have purchased a Zpacks Altaplex..... He hasn't got the knack on this one tho'.. :-[  Got to get used to pitching a cuben/Dyneema composite fibre shelter. Cuben has to be pitched tight as a drum.... He hasn't and he's just got it totally pitched wrong..looks as if he's also using carbon poles... Useless. Better to use Trek Poles as more sturdy. 
That's why it's a 'drip coffin' for him.
Steep sides mean condensation will run straight down to the ground... Sadly, not for Dave in this case


As to using 4 seasons, check out the Barrow lad, 'munro277'. Uses his MLD cuben Duomid all through Winter in blizzards. Cuben is strong and doesn't stretch.
 :)
Great trip reports btw, April..... :smitten: :smitten: :smitten:
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: Rajboy on 08:49:32, 30/07/18
Also, watch the U Tube link that Fox posted up on page 5 re the Dartmoor meet up. Filmed by, 'boogiepanda'.
Dartmoor weather and latest lighter weight shelters.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: beefy on 08:54:42, 30/07/18
Quote
Steep sides mean condensation will run straight down to the ground... Sadly, not for Dave in this case   [
/quote]
WHAT ABOUT WHEN GUSYS OF WIND SNAKE ALL THAT condensation off onto your sleeping bag   :D


I'm not convinced, sorry :-\
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 09:01:04, 30/07/18
Yes agree April  O0  bout Dave Murphy being a really experienced camper, but he has always used traditional 2 skin tents. He mentioned in one of his last videos that he wanted to reduce Pack weight and he seems to have purchased a Zpacks Altaplex..... He hasn't got the knack on this one tho'.. :-[  Got to get used to pitching a cuben/Dyneema composite fibre shelter. Cuben has to be pitched tight as a drum.... He hasn't and he's just got it totally pitched wrong..looks as if he's also using carbon poles... Useless. Better to use Trek Poles as more sturdy. 
That's why it's a 'drip coffin' for him.
Steep sides mean condensation will run straight down to the ground... Sadly, not for Dave in this case


I'm not convinced either. The condensation will form no matter how tightly pitched the tent is; whether you use carbon poles or Trek poles. And if it runs "straight down to the ground" then two things: that's a LOT of condensation, and ''the ground" in Dave's single skin tent is the groundsheet - who wants to sleep in a pool of water? Edit - I may have misunderstood the construction of the tent regarding the last point.

Any condensation that forms on the fly of my cheapo double walled tent really does just run straight down to the ground - and I'm separated from it by the inner! And if there are any drips, the inner catches them.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: beefy on 09:19:31, 30/07/18
Check this video I made years ago  ;D


https://youtu.be/uzeAUsrpM6A (https://youtu.be/uzeAUsrpM6A)

Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 09:23:54, 30/07/18
Check this video I made years ago  ;D


https://youtu.be/uzeAUsrpM6A (https://youtu.be/uzeAUsrpM6A)



Didn't know that you were a poet!  ;D
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: alan de enfield on 09:27:51, 30/07/18
Check this video I made years ago  ;D


https://youtu.be/uzeAUsrpM6A (https://youtu.be/uzeAUsrpM6A)



Excellent !!!


Over the years, I have had many nights under 'canvas' (when you were always told "don't touch the canvas or the water will leak in), but fewer under 'synthetics' - I can only agree that the principle of a fly sheet removing the condensation is sound, and cannot see how a single skin tent can do anything other than act as a flysheet and condense the water vapour and allow it to run down inside the tent.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 09:33:09, 30/07/18
That's why it's a 'drip coffin' for him.



Or maybe it is because he camps in windy spots and the condensation shakes off, as beefy suggests?
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: beefy on 09:36:06, 30/07/18

Or maybe it is because he camps in windy spots and the condensation shakes off, as beefy suggests?
O0
DRIP COFFINS  :D
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: Rajboy on 09:46:11, 30/07/18
I’ve worked my way through tarps/single skin/hybrid shelters from Luxe Outdoor, Aliexpress, ZPacks, MLD and Tarptent.
Most folk use some sort of mesh/ semi solid Inner also. So becomes a 2 skin.
When all these shelters are pitched correctly and dead tight, no problem
They don’t flap so condensation runs down.
Daves shelter is a Hybrid and needs to be pitched TAUT for it to function.
Same as 6 Moons Designs and other ZPacks with built in mesh.


Comments can only be fair here if you have actually used these types of shelters over the years..... and then compare to your experiences in tents
If you’ve only used traditional tents then......unfair to take negative reports when most folk get on fine
Any shelter or tent pitched in crap weather and exposed like Dave tends to do is going to push anything to it’s limit.... and Dave does that hence his tents get damaged
That’s my lot on this topic.
Thanks
 ::) :)

Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: beefy on 09:55:59, 30/07/18
 No matter how tight a tent is pitched, it isn't a solid structure, and strong gusts of wind shake the tent, end of story  :)
I have used tents, tarps, bivvy bags, and hammocks
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: April on 14:00:12, 30/07/18
Also, watch the U Tube link that Fox posted up on page 5 re the Dartmoor meet up. Filmed by, 'boogiepanda'.
Dartmoor weather and latest lighter weight shelters.

We did, they seemed to pitch at low level when it was raining on the Friday and it was a week or so ago? So it would have been quite warm down south? We have had two months of very warm weather so Fox hasn't had a chance to test his tent in poor weather. They pitched higher up the next night, a bit windier but dry. Not really a test for a tent in awful weather? If it was October in the Lakes at 500m, in awful weather that would be a test.

Saturday we pitched in very wet conditions with 35mph gusts of wind, it was very windy most of the time and the freezing cold draught coming through the mesh part of our inner was in stark contrast to the nylon inner below it, where no draught at all came through. If we'd been in an all mesh inner, hybrid or not, we would have been cold with the gear we had. We would have had to carry more weight in warmer gear/clothes if we were using an all mesh inner. Defeats the object of saving weight on a tent if you have to carry more weight in other gear to keep warm.

Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 16:01:05, 30/07/18
Defeats the object of saving weight on a tent if you have to carry more weight in other gear to keep warm.



This is the crux of the matter. The tent is the first line of defence against the weather.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: FOX160 on 18:27:00, 30/07/18
WOW LOL
Nice try Rajboy
Suppose there is trek lite and there’s certainly the walking forum.

Leave you with this to stick your double wall stakes into.
https://youtu.be/IJ_MGRyhaBs (https://youtu.be/IJ_MGRyhaBs)
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: beefy on 19:46:54, 30/07/18
WOW LOL
Nice try Rajboy
Suppose there is trek lite and there’s certainly the walking forum.

Leave you with this to stick your double wall stakes into.
https://youtu.be/IJ_MGRyhaBs (https://youtu.be/IJ_MGRyhaBs)
We don't actually need any stakes with our tent it's freestanding  :D
Can you point me to a link to these double wall stakes I've never heard of them before :-\


I just watched the video, some nice filming
Interesting that none of it was filmed in high wind and rain...
And I guess non of it was filmed in the UK...
Also it's the people selling the gear that are promoting it in the video...


Dyneema is an interesting fabric, if they made tents with a dyneema outer flysheet and  a mixed mesh/solid inner
I might be interested in buying one, but the price would be a major factor in choosing a tent,
Not everyone has money to throw around on expensive gear,
Incidentally, we usually wild camp on average about 45 nights a year , and have done for many years, in every type of weather
How many camps have you done fox? In what weather, altitude, and temperature ?


We manage just fine with the equipment that we choose to carry, we could go lighter, but we like a bit of comfort,
That's our choice, we don't look at what other people are doing and  copy,


If I needed a tent AND my objective was to walk as many miles as possible, in the shortest time, them maybe I would look at carrying a lighter pack,
However, to spend lots of money on all this fancy high tech gear, only to go camping a handful of times each year would be rather like using a sledge hammer to crack a nut,
And that's not my "objective"
Did you start using this term after watching the guy in the video BTW?

Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 20:08:43, 30/07/18
WOW LOL
Nice try Rajboy
Suppose there is trek lite and there’s certainly the walking forum.

Leave you with this to stick your double wall stakes into.
https://youtu.be/IJ_MGRyhaBs (https://youtu.be/IJ_MGRyhaBs)


Interesting video; fabrics like Dyneema are obviously the future.

If fabrics in general get lighter and lighter, then the difference in weight between a modern lightweight single skin tent, and a modern lightweight twin walled tent, which is already small, will get even smaller :) 

PS - what are 'double wall stakes'?
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: April on 20:25:26, 30/07/18
Suppose there is trek lite and there’s certainly the walking forum.

  ;D

I find the trek lite forum quite tedious, I found the video from Dyneema to be tedious too, I didn't watch it beyond the first minute . When anyone uses the term "Ultralightweight" continually, I cringe and switch off. It isn't the be all and end all, having the lightest weight item. 

Instead of spending hours and hours talking about gear, I prefer to just get out and use it. Perhaps you should get out and use yours more.

Fox we still don't know what your objective is?
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: Owen on 20:34:20, 30/07/18
  ;D

 

Instead of spending hours and hours talking about gear, I prefer to just get out and use it. Perhaps you should get out and use yours more.








 O0
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 20:35:25, 30/07/18
He hasn't got the knack on this one tho'.. :-[  Got to get used to pitching a cuben/Dyneema composite fibre shelter. Cuben has to be pitched tight as a drum....

This is potentially a serious disadvantage in my view, Rajboy; more strain on the tent pegs, and if the material has no stretch then it has no shock absorbing properties in a storm. Also, when wild camping, it is not always possible to select a perfectly flat spot and achieve a perfect pitch, especially in bad conditions at the end of a long day; a tent selected for wild camping should be forgiving in this respect.
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: Rajboy on 20:53:03, 30/07/18
Hi Richard,


Actually cuben is the present and the past.
Its been in full use for several years now.
Drum tight..strain on pegs??...depends what pegs you use.
As I suggested, read up Munro277's blog and features of cuben..
..........enough said here now.....

Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: beefy on 21:10:30, 30/07/18
Also, when wild camping, it is not always possible to select a perfectly flat spot and achieve a perfect pitch, especially in bad conditions at the end of a long day; a tent selected for wild camping should be forgiving in this respect.
Wise words Richard  O0
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: richardh1905 on 08:22:40, 31/07/18
Wise words Richard  O0



 :)


Someone flogging a single skin Six Moons Design Skyscape tent on ebay right now - "got used only couple of nights this summer" - says it all, really ::)
Title: Re: The truth about single skin / hybrid tents
Post by: beefy on 20:17:52, 31/07/18

 :)


Someone flogging a single skin Six Moons Design Skyscape tent on ebay right now - "got used only couple of nights this summer" - says it all, really ::)
Does it come with a free shower?  ;D