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Title: Cows again
Post by: Toxicbunny on 21:02:21, 22/09/20
Todays news. I'm not going to go into it too much as its a friend of a friend. However I appreciate farmers have to graze livestock but its about time ROW were made safe with electric fencing to keep cows away from walkers. I dont trust cows and my family had dairy farms.
 https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/people/richmond-school-teacher-killed-cows-while-walking-his-dogs-2980002
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: ninthace on 21:40:24, 22/09/20
Thread already running. http://www.walkingforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=40975.0
I am not sure I can agree with your sentiments regarding electric fencing.  I have experienced being confined to the righteous path by electric fencing and it is a miserable experience.  A single file march with no opportunity to avoid bad ground or dodge=ing overhanging vegetation.
Can I be just as controversial ?  How about not allowing dog walking in fields with stock in them? 
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: Toxicbunny on 22:28:52, 22/09/20
Parts of the Yorkshire dales has ROW fencing cows off. I must admit I felt a lot safer too. Whether you have a dog or not sometimes cows will still run after you. The farmer across from me walks his collies through the fields and they don't bother him. Personally if cows are in field I choose another way even if i tresspass. I don't trust them and that's the best way to be I think. I've jumped a few walls due to cows.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: jimbob on 22:40:29, 22/09/20
Ninthace is correct, dogs are a big threat to cattle and they will go for them. The farmers dogs are probably well known to the beast and not seen as a theat.
The following article explains it better than I can. https://www.countryfile.com/go-outdoors/walks/how-dangerous-are-cows-to-walkers/ (https://www.countryfile.com/go-outdoors/walks/how-dangerous-are-cows-to-walkers/)
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: Dodgylegs on 23:35:57, 22/09/20
Anyone watch 'BBC 2 Farming Life' tonight.... farmer saying two of his cows he wouldn't go near.


I'm with Toxicbunny on not trusting them, although the breed does make a difference to me... those dark brown ones need watching!


I've read on forum previously of peoples differing opinions, down to personnel experiences I guess.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: pauldawes on 07:49:50, 23/09/20
Ninthace is correct, dogs are a big threat to cattle and they will go for them. The farmers dogs are probably well known to the beast and not seen as a theat.
The following article explains it better than I can. https://www.countryfile.com/go-outdoors/walks/how-dangerous-are-cows-to-walkers/ (https://www.countryfile.com/go-outdoors/walks/how-dangerous-are-cows-to-walkers/)


The presence of dogs certainly makes a fair number of cows more restive..my sister tends to pick hers up and carry it through the field, and generally that seems to have a calming effect. (Not an option with larger dogs, of course!)


 Ages ago when I was a kid walking the family dogs I actually used to let them off the lead in fields..they were well trained and never chased farm stock...and my “reasoning” was they could run a lot faster than I could if a quick exit was called for...it never proved necessary... cows back then seemed gentler..


But not sure that banning dogs from fields with livestock is remotely a proportionate response..it would effectively stop a large proportion of walkers from field walking. If it does come to that..I would hope that landowners and farmers accepted legal changes to make reasonable detours through other fields allowed.


Not sure what the answer is..but sure the old advice about just keeping calm, not showing fear, be assertive, etc doesn’t always work now. Personally I always look for potential exit points, alternate routes, etc when coming to fields with cows in, especially (of course) in calving season.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: richardh1905 on 08:07:01, 23/09/20
  How about not allowing dog walking in fields with stock in them?


That is a huge erosion of walkers rights you are proposing there, ninthace.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: ninthace on 09:25:07, 23/09/20

That is a huge erosion of walkers rights you are proposing there, ninthace.
I agree. My tongue was firmly in my cheek but it just seemed more practical, less expensive and more aesthetic than being made to walk between lines of fencing. It was just that most incidents seem to involve dogs.  When you think about it, you are assuming a right to exercise your dog on someone else’s property and unless you keep it on a lead and on the path, that is a trespass.  (Ducks for cover).
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: Ridge on 09:26:22, 23/09/20
We hear about these incidents because they are comparatively rare.
In 2019 there were 1870 road traffic deaths and 157,630 road traffic injuries in the UK. We don't hear about them because they are so common. The only figures I can find for people being killed by cows is out of date but shows approximately 5 a year but 3 of those are farm workers.
I know that there is no significance between the 2 sets of deaths unless we know how many people go walking, and how often, and have the same information for driving. I am just worried that people are making suggestions which would have a huge impact on many people based on a very small number of incidents.
Cows don't scare me as much as horses do which I find much more unpredictable and harder to read.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: gunwharfman on 10:10:21, 23/09/20
I often think that comparing one set of statistics against another subject doesn't actually help, I prefer to judge a subject on its own stand alone merits or otherwise. So for make road traffic accidents and cows, or flu versus Covid-19 for example is the best way to look at and then try to solve a problem? I still remember the time when I walked the Stevenson Way in France, about 115 miles and there was only one short section between two gates where human being and cattle mixed. The rest of the time we were separated by temporary stakes, or permanent ones and a length of wire. I noted then that the cows were used to this barrier and I wasn't bothered once. However, I am well aware that this way of dealing with the problem will not satisfy all cows!

I think I'm correct that most if not all recent deaths have happened because the human being had a dog with them? I don't have a dog but I've still been bothered by cows, but I suspect I would have been bothered much more if I did have one?

Although I've had my own run in with cows and have also been attacked, biffed in the chest and lifted off of my feet, the ecperience that guides me most was when I met a farmer on the Pennine Way who had been attacked by his cows. He told me he had cared for cows for 50 years and never a problem but in one split second he was trampled and pulverised into the ground by them. He was lucky that his farmhand was near who rescued him. He ended up in hospital and he nearly died and when I met him he was still covered in bruises, across his face head and whole body. He undid his shirt to show me, what a mess! I'll never forget him!

I also worry sometimes that some farmers deliberately put cows into certain fields, even they like some houseownwers I know can be so territorial and possesive about it being their land!

When ever I go walking or running I always carry an 15" horse whip with me, (just a fiver from Go Camping) just in case, but more to do with dangerous dogs really. A little tap, or just laying it on the animals back is all thats needed mostly, but if it became necessary I would thrash out.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: strawy on 11:14:09, 23/09/20
How odd that this thread should open a day after i had a "moment" with cows..
Normally i avoid them,i will take another way if possible,i have my excuse ready,should i be accused of trespass,but this time i had no choice.
They were gathered at the gate i was to go through,i didnt dare open it so climbed it and "shooed" them away,they did move but as i continued on my way(staying beside a barbed wire fence/wall which i thought i could never have hurdled) i heard a rumble behind me,i turned and faced them,they stopped,continued on my way mostly walking backwards,my exit gate was diagonally right but i stuck to the fence(walking thru s8*t & mud)it somehow felt safer than walking across the field.
I made it to the exit only to see 2 more fields with cows in,thankfully they were well away from me & didnt take much notice.
We have to be very wary of these animals,they are normally very placid,i admit i often talk to them but am no match for them.
TCA.

Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: richardh1905 on 11:33:38, 23/09/20
I wonder whether the unfortunate man who died followed the golden rule of letting go of the lead(s) when the cows came for him and his dogs?
I would not hesitate to do so if I felt threatened. But then I have a very agile dog who could easily run rings around the cows - not all dogs could do so.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: tonyk on 11:38:03, 23/09/20
 The trouble is the article only tells us the cause of death,ie,trampled by cattle.Did he pick the dog up,leave it on the ground tethered to him by its lead or release it? In a dangerous situation with cattle its often best to release the dog as it will have a far better chance of survival if released to fend for itself  and will also act as a distraction.People often pick  dogs up to protect them,especially if the dog is small and this only gives the cattle one object to concentrate on and possibly attack.

 Whilst we do have to be concerned about eroding walker's rights we also have to use a bit of commonsense and accept that having dogs and cattle in the same field isn't really a good idea.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: GnP on 12:10:13, 23/09/20
I am very wary of any cows , especially with calves or groups of heiffers . I do not think that any more precautions should be take however  .

My plans have been frustrated on a couple of walks at times when confronted with large herds of cows but I would just rather accept things as they are and take absolute responsibility for my own and family`s safety , if that means a detour or change of planned route then that`s ok by me. I have done detours before and ended up with some great unexpected scenery .  :)
I just think some dairy farmers have enough on their hands without having to lay extra fencing along Prow`s any time they have to graze cattle in a particular field with a right of way running through it . Maybe warning signs should be obligatory , if not already .

Cows tend to be rotated from field to field so it is not as if they will block a Prow forever and a day .

I remember GWM saying he carried a short whip or very flexible cane ( of some sort ?) strapped to his ruck sack and be able to give any over zealous heiffer or cows a short sharp flick or two . After reading about the death of that Gent , I reminded myself to buy something like that very soon .

Edit : yes just re read this thread and realised GWM mentions he carries a horse whip...
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: BuzyG on 12:43:32, 23/09/20
I wonder whether the unfortunate man who died followed the golden rule of letting go of the lead(s) when the cows came for him and his dogs?
I would not hesitate to do so if I felt threatened. But then I have a very agile dog who could easily run rings around the cows - not all dogs could do so.


Once spooked they are spooked for a while.  The cattle up on Dartmoor are peaceful lot. However a few month back we witnessed, from afar, a herd being startled by a lose dog, ill controlled by it's dumb keeper.  It was a good 20mins before we reached that point and it was clear they were still agitated. 


It's a small minority, but owners who can't or won't control there dogs near livestock should be dealt with harshly IMHO.  They are not. The only real threat is to the poor dogs themselves.


Awaits questions on definition of harshly. :-X
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: barewirewalker on 13:43:59, 23/09/20
The means of providing alternative ways should have been thought up 50 years ago when the traditional beef and dairy breeds of the UK were being increased by continental breeds.
From last March;(https://i.ibb.co/BBzP6sj/forging-new-path.jpg)
IMO too late and too little discussion on the ways and means of implementation. As usual the blame is firmly in the person of the landowner, they have persuaded the NFU that they deal with matters of Land Management and the NFU is responsible for production matters. The reluctance to admit that any alternative ways other than those RoWs established by the 1949 Act has been ignored.

There is no mention of any safety recognition in the CLA policy on access published in 2012 and heralded as common sense. How much common sense can be contained in a document that is not based on any proper research of history and modern day trends.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: Dyffryn Ardudwy on 13:58:24, 23/09/20
I give wide berth to Cows and Horses.
Only the other day, i was a bit nervous walking up the path towards Drum, in the Northern Carneddau.

A fairly large group, around twelve i think, Carneddau ponies, with several fairly young foals, were in a rather frisky mood.

Two of them, were doing that aggressive backward kicking that horses are renowned for, so i remained calm and waited what seemed to be an age, for them to move on down the hillside.

There was no way i was going to approach them, in a can't care less attitude.

Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: gunwharfman on 14:52:12, 23/09/20
Dyffryn - I find your approach is often a good way to avoid cow problems, it's just having the patience to just wait and let the cows move well away. I find that while waiting I keep out of their sight because if they see me they can often become inquisitive. I did it yesterday in fact. I knew the cows were in one of three fields, because the farmer ALWAYS leaves the connecting gates open. I could see where they were when I started my run so chose an alternative route and I then ran back to one of the fields afterwards. By now the cows had moved off to the opposite side of the field  adjacent to mine so I just ran on with no problems. It must be said that it doesn't work every time, just most times, and I accept that it may not be so easy when the area is new to the walker or runner. I am also more confident about cows when they are all lying down.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: strawy on 15:43:17, 23/09/20
It all comes down to your own sense.
Farmers cant & will not keep a field "free & open" just for walkers etc.
Yes,a few can be less inviting,but overall i find they are fine,chatty & very informative.
Ive heard/read many cases of farmers being attacked by their own livestock,they know them & we dont.
1 bad apple,just like us humans,ever watched sheep "rutting each other" violent.....
Take a wide berth,avoid if possible,if not,take care,work your way around them.
I dont walk with a dog,maybe its them that set things off ??



Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: Ridge on 16:31:48, 23/09/20
I often think that comparing one set of statistics against another subject doesn't actually help,
I agree which is why I said
I know that there is no significance between the 2 sets of deaths
I was using it to try to give us some perspective. If every time there was a road death 2 topics got started on the forum then that would be 10 topics a day.


The first post in this thread suggests electric fences along all rights of way where there may be cattle. I'm not sure how that works if the path is across a field but;


UK = 24,300,000 hectares
0.5 hectares required per cow. 9,600,000 cows in UK therefore 4,800,000 hectares of land are given over to cattle farming. Almost 20% of the total land area. I'm amazed it is that high.


149,300 miles of footpaths in Britain (I can't find the figure for Northern Ireland)


If the paths are evenly distributed then there are 29,860 miles of ROW across land used for cattle. That sound like a lot of electric fence (£1,345,540,336 at 28p per meter) and a lot of electricity to prevent 2 very tragic incidents a year. And that is fence on just 1 side of the path.


In the UK you are more likely to be killed by a hornet, bee or wasp than a cow.


Now all my figures are from the first thing I saw when googling and could be inaccurate and any accidental death is tragic. I still think that we require some perspective on the situation.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: Dyffryn Ardudwy on 16:41:52, 23/09/20
I will just never forget that time, back in the very late 1970s, when i was crossing the fields near Penpedairheol, near Caerphilly.
Ive still got friends living there, who i visit now and again.

On approaching the gate, this very large herd of bullocks, came galloping at considerable speed, ever so curious to see who it was.

For around ten minutes they just went ballistic, running up and down the perimeter fence of this field, it was dead scary, they simply did not want to calm down.

Nothing on this earth, would have persuaded me to cross that field, or go through that gate, and i just cannot imagine what these animals would have done, if i was foolish enough to enter their field.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: Ridge on 16:52:35, 23/09/20
I'm sure you did the right thing DA but that is one incident 50 years ago in a lifetime of walking.
I can think of a couple of times I've changed my plan, either slightly or significantly, because of livestock.
I'm not saying that all cattle are safe and people are being silly about them but more people die falling off cliffs so we should be looking to fence all of those before we fence off paths through fields of cows.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: pleb on 17:15:08, 23/09/20
I'm sure you did the right thing DA but that is one incident 50 years ago in a lifetime of walking.
I can think of a couple of times I've changed my plan, either slightly or significantly, because of livestock.
I'm not saying that all cattle are safe and people are being silly about them but more people die falling off cliffs so we should be looking to fence all of those before we fence off paths through fields of cows.
Agreed. You can always stay Away from fields.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: Dyffryn Ardudwy on 17:26:05, 23/09/20
Does anyone remember that Readybrek advert, donkey's years ago.
Children going to school on a cold winter's day, with this warm glow radiating around them like a halo.

Well, everytime, i go a walking in the remoter areas, where there's farmland and farm creatures, they for some reason, seek me out, and show their displeasure of me being in their vicinity.


Almost as if i am giving off this warm glow, of being timid and scared of their very presence.

Only a few years ago, whilst crossing the field above Porth Wen brickworks, the otherside of Bull Bay, on Angleseys coastal path, this herd of cows took a dislike to me, and galloped at top speed.

To make matters worse, i was halfway across the field, and seeing the cows were quite a distance away, i thought,  LETS RISK IT.

I am still convinced, i would have qualified for the 100m relays, in next years Olympics.

I ran so fast, hearing this stampede behind me, and only made it with inches to spare.

Its the same with canines, their jaws seem to be magnetized in my direction.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: barewirewalker on 17:39:51, 23/09/20
I'm not saying that all cattle are safe and people are being silly about them but more people die falling off cliffs so we should be looking to fence all of those before we fence off paths through fields of cows.
Any means of making the thee countryside safer should be considered but in proportion to the level of risk. Farming has side stepped the acceptance of Risk Assessment on this issue of making further allowance for additional ways to protect an old fashioned notion of land ownership.


From the above NFU access article
Quote
The resulting trial highlighted how permissive routes can be a useful tool, as they offer an alternate route while keeping the original path open to the public. However, this is not always suitable because farmers are still vulnerable to criminal prosecution should anyone be hurt on the original path, asusers are still allowed to use it. It also means farmers would have to increase their insurance premiums to cover two public footpaths across their land.Temporarily closing a public right of way is a more suitable solution that has gained the backing of the HSE, and to do it the Highways Act 1980 needs to change.
On the other hand the issue of liability has also been overplayed. This has been used by the 'Lord of the Manor' faction of land occupier as a  goad to further their interests as well as the threat of criminal prosecution. Where lack of Duty of care has been proven then the consequences should be paid.

Good, properly targeted and managed risk assessment using the tools available from today's technology should be able solve many of these problems.  Look at the classified ads in the back of a landowners coffee table reading and you are more likely to find the modern day equivalent of a mantrap than you are to find software for protocols on safety management for livestock.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: cornwallcoastpathdweller on 21:11:50, 23/09/20
There is always a risk when out in the countryside wherever you are, i always do my very best to keep as far away from cattle as is humanly possible just in case they get spooked. 
Once they are on my BBQ however you'd have to beat me off with a very large stick.
Its all about commin sense with any powerful animal really.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: tonyk on 21:45:59, 23/09/20
 This ebook gives a good insight into cattle behaviour.

 https://www.publish.csiro.au/ebook/chapter/9781486301614_Chapter4

 It is a very complex subject but the conclusion I came to is that mixing dogs,cattle and humans in the same field is asking for trouble.A lot will depend on how the cattle have been treated by their handlers and how fearful they are.If they have been abused by farm dogs the situation will be even worse as they will be fearful of both humans and dogs.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: ninthace on 21:59:35, 23/09/20
We came across a field the other day with cows clustered round the gate.  Mrs N gets a bit twittery round cows so I went in first and did my best Farmer Giles impression to chivvy them back a bit - easy if you walk with 2 sticks as I do.  It worked a treat.  Once we were past they soon lost interest.  The following day on Exmoor we met a large herd of young cows that were decidedly frisky but then they ran off and watched us from a distance.  There was a lot of mooing as we left though, I think they were missing us.
I find young bullocks are the most curious and playful.  I have been "harrassed" on the odd occasion and have had to take a firm line as a result.  When I go out with my wife, I try to avoid plotting routes where we might cattle meet until they have got a bit older and more sensible.
Neverthess, seeing how my wife reacts to them I can understand how people can get nervous and panicky.  Often when we are passing through a field of cows, I spend more time managing her response than I do dealing with the cows.
 
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: Little Foot on 09:24:56, 24/09/20
I was at the start of a walk with my son and small dog when we came to a thin field which had a public footpath going through it. About 30 meters away there was a couple of cows so I paused for a moment while thinking what to do. My mind was made up to finding an alternative route when suddenly one of the ‘cows’ started humping the other. I’ve no idea if other cows were in the field as it was angled so you could only see a short portion of it. I’m just glad we never entered it and got half way before being surprised as there wasn’t any signs stating a bull was in the field, like we saw at gates for other fields later on.


Just a thought (which wouldn’t have worked in the thin field outlined above), but in larger fields, couldn’t a fenced off path run along the edge of the field, so a farmer would only have to put in one side of the fence as the original wall or fence is already there? People could use that if cows were in the field or go the original route if preferred. Farmer would only be liable for the upkeep of the original path (other than keeping plants short), so if the ‘safety path’ got thick mud in it, tough. That keeps costs down to a minimum for the farmer and people are safer.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: ninthace on 09:39:12, 24/09/20
One cow humping another does not necessarily mean one of them is a bull.  It is a means of showing dominance or sometimes I think they are just bored!
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: Little Foot on 09:47:18, 24/09/20
Oh ok. I didn’t have a good look to be honest, it didn’t look huge like a lot of bulls do so perhaps it was just a cow.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: barewirewalker on 09:59:39, 24/09/20
One cow humping another does not necessarily mean one of them is a bull.  It is a means of showing dominance or sometimes I think they are just bored!
It is a sign that one of them is 'on heat' or bulling in cowman's parlance. Probably one one that is attempted to be served. This is a sign that the dairyman will look for so if the cow is at the right stage of her lactation she be taken out of the herd and put to the bull or artificial insemination. The reason why a bull does not usually run with a dairy herd is because not all the cows will be at the right stage of their lactation to be served.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: Jac on 10:48:11, 24/09/20
..............The reason why a bull does not usually run with a dairy herd is because not all the cows will be at the right stage of their lactation to be served.

that's interesting.
I thought it was the breed of the bull that was proscribed and assumed that it was because dairy breed bulls are more feisty/unpredictable. We occasionally come across dairy (Friesian) cows with a beef breed bull. 
A friend who worked with Jerseys reckoned Jersey bulls were not to be trusted.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: ninthace on 12:43:08, 24/09/20
that's interesting.
I thought it was the breed of the bull that was proscribed and assumed that it was because dairy breed bulls are more feisty/unpredictable. We occasionally come across dairy (Friesian) cows with a beef breed bull. 
A friend who worked with Jerseys reckoned Jersey bulls were not to be trusted.
As a lad I helped out on a farm that kept Jerseys.  I can confirm that they are not to be trusted when you are crammed into a yard with them sorting them out for milking (they had to be done in order).  You could almost guarantee that the one you had your back to would try to poo on you if it could.   It is amazing how quick you can put another cow between yourself and a lifting tail if you try!
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: Dodgylegs on 13:03:30, 24/09/20
This useful sign was on Pennine Way route going alongside river Tees back in 2015.(https://i.postimg.cc/cLZ1m5nP/512-C5-F8-B-E671-4083-9-A9-E-4-A5-F17-AFEEA6.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/w7fdx2Fk)
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: ninthace on 13:17:22, 24/09/20
I passed through that field several times when I lived up there between 2011 and 2016.  There was often a bull in that field and sometimes more that one.  When I passed they barely looked up.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: windyrigg on 16:41:15, 24/09/20
On St Cuthberts' Way from Melrose to Holy Island I came across 24 (!) bulls within fields en route. Some ignored me or were a way off, others were avoidable by a detour etc. Only a couple showed aggression but on both occasions it was to other people with a dog! Difficult to recommend what was a good walk to anyone who has an issue with cattle! I almost wondered if it was a deliberate attempt to dissuade access; I used to manage a nature reserve which had a trespass problem and had an arrangement with a farmer to graze a bull on the land when the birds were breeding, worked really well at keeping un-desirables off .   
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: ninthace on 17:22:20, 24/09/20
I'd rather face a bull than geese or an angry cockerel.  Those things are fearless and there is no negotiating with them!
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: BuzyG on 17:48:12, 24/09/20
I'd rather face a bull than geese or an angry cockerel.  Those things are fearless and there is no negotiating with them!
100% agree on geese.   O0  Them critters has anger management issues and sharp beaks.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: barewirewalker on 11:18:45, 25/09/20
There are many ways with today's farm equipment, technology and understanding that the dangers livestock now present are not dealt with. In another topic the offset pavement  (http://www.walkingforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=40973.msg593280#msg593280)shows that pedestrian traffic in an earlier age chose alternative ways. The occupiers accepted this to the extent that some these ways got onto the OS maps. This was done long before H&S laws made it a responsibility to respond to perceived danger.


Why is it one of the tools available is only seen as a means of detecting in order evict visitors rather than monitoring livestock behavior? Namely portable CCTV advertised in Land and Business to detect poachers and trespassers, rather that observing the safe passage of walkers along a right of way and identifying problem animals before serious injury happens.

The reason is the understanding of the leisure asset of the countryside has not advanced with progress.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: barewirewalker on 14:57:37, 25/09/20
When I was at Agriculture College in 1962 the protocols for safety regarding the types of bulls in fields were exactly the same as they are today, I learnt of these in the year before at block release, as far as I know these protocols dated from the 1950's perhaps even earlier. At that time we were already already crossing Charollais onto dairy breeds, most beef rearing was done with the Cross bred calves that were the byproduct of a very much more diverse dairy industry. Many hill and marginal farms were still milking as the monthly milk cheque was important regular income. The milking cows would be handled twice a day as they had necks chains put on in the days of cowshed milking with portable milking units. I was also told during a lecture on methods of beef production about Single Suckler herds were a past method, yet then those cattle would still be bought into farm buildings regularly and the dames were familiar with being tethered.

Today we have a great variety of breeds ranging from rare breeds to the continental breeds intensely bred to achieve the double muscled conformation, yet no recognition has been made to monitor herd behaviour in relation to the free range management and great variety of hybrid characteristics. Where I would agree that the identification of animal aggression is the responsibility of the herdsman, those protocols to mitigate the effects must clearly be a Land Management issue.

My previous post may seem flippant, yet such simple strategies as using an electric fence to create a safe area around the entry points and even several places for exit could prove far better than narrow corridors of fenced off pathways.

Where is the training for such methods or even the research, should it come out of the SFS payments that go into the pockets of many landowners, who have never driven a herd of cattle down lane and observe that they soil the pavement as well as the roadway.

I am also serious about CCTV.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: gunwharfman on 10:33:04, 26/09/20
And again!

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12770975/walker-trampled-death-cows-morning-stroll-thirlwall-castle/
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: Eyelet on 11:10:35, 26/09/20
Another two associations between an incident and the presence of a dog in the cattle's field again in the death and in the second reference to the injured lady dog-walker in Leicestershire :( .



Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: richardh1905 on 11:51:07, 26/09/20
I'd rather face a bull than geese or an angry cockerel.  Those things are fearless and there is no negotiating with them!
100% agree on geese.   O0  Them critters has anger management issues and sharp beaks.

As someone who has kept (and eaten) geese they don't phase me at all. Bantam cockerels can be downright nasty, though.


Edit - I don't recall any incidents of anyone being killed by geese!
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: ninthace on 13:05:35, 26/09/20
As someone who has kept (and eaten) geese they don't phase me at all. Bantam cockerels can be downright nasty, though.


Edit - I don't recall any incidents of anyone being killed by geese!
It is only a matter of time before someone is goosed  :)
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: richardh1905 on 18:18:10, 26/09/20
It is only a matter of time before someone is goosed  :)


 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: Dodgylegs on 21:09:05, 26/09/20
Managed a steady walk down to river, through farmers fields and back, noticed a lot of new signage on all styles with various warnings about Cows.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: Eyelet on 22:10:05, 26/09/20
In 2017, researchers from the University of Liverpool reviewed the reported accident data involving cattle attacks on members of the public over two decades: https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2017/06/20/cows-attack-dangerous-cattle-can-stay-safe-around/#:~:text=They%20say%20that%20on%20average,commonly%20used%20rights%20of%20way. (https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2017/06/20/cows-attack-dangerous-cattle-can-stay-safe-around/#:~:text=They%20say%20that%20on%20average,commonly%20used%20rights%20of%20way.)

They identified 54 attacks by cattle on members of the public while out walking. On average two members of the public are killed in incidents involving cattle every year. Almost all incidents are in fields and enclosed areas. The most common factors are cows with calves and walkers with dogs. They concluded:

Where recorded, 91% of HSE reported fatalities on the public were caused by cows with calves; only one death involved a bull, and even this was unproven in court. Of all attacks, we found that 48% were caused by (unspecified) herds, followed by single cows (22%), cows and calves (20%), heifers (7%), and one bull attack (2%). Behavioural research suggests maternal defensive aggression may be behind many attacks.

The dog factor
Does having a dog make a difference? Yes: dogs look like predators, and they are even more threatening to dairy cattle than unfamiliar people. This is reflected in the data: 94% of walkers killed had dogs, and two thirds of all attacks involved dogs. Though our sample numbers were small, we also found evidence suggesting that women were more likely to protect their dogs, while men let them go.

HSE published guidance to the farming industry which included putting up signage and carefully considering where cattle are grazed relative to PROWs. You can read HSE's advice here:
https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/ais17ew.pdf (https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/ais17ew.pdf)

No mention of killer geese or cockerels though, so they must be okay! :)
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: Eyelet on 22:25:31, 26/09/20
This summary report from 2010 of a legal case involving a dog walker and cows with calves (not fatal) makes interesting reading as to how the Courts assess such incidents and the degree of liability attached to the livestock keeper:


https://hau.repository.guildhe.ac.uk/16824/1/de%20silva.pdf (https://hau.repository.guildhe.ac.uk/16824/1/de%20silva.pdf)
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: tonyk on 22:51:56, 26/09/20



No mention of killer geese or cockerels though, so they must be okay! :)

 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/feb/08/ (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/feb/08/) c-ock-kills-man-california-cockfight
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: harland on 09:06:23, 27/09/20
This summary report from 2010 of a legal case involving a dog walker and cows with calves (not fatal) makes interesting reading as to how the Courts assess such incidents and the degree of liability attached to the livestock keeper:
https://hau.repository.guildhe.ac.uk/16824/1/de%20silva.pdf (https://hau.repository.guildhe.ac.uk/16824/1/de%20silva.pdf)
A good article and well worth a read.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: Lakeland Lorry on 09:24:48, 27/09/20

I've posted a link to the Killer Cows website before https://killercows.co.uk (https://killercows.co.uk/) but thought it worthwhile posting it again.

The owner of the website set it up so that anyone who has been scared or injured by cattle can record their stories.   Some of the reports make for grim reading.   

There's also one from April and Beefy which tells about their encounter with some aggressive cattle in the North Lakes.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: richardh1905 on 09:33:41, 27/09/20
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/feb/08/ (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/feb/08/) c-ock-kills-man-california-cockfight


Karma. Don't give knives to cockerels!
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: Toxicbunny on 15:41:17, 27/09/20
Ironically since I posted the original thread another walkers has been killed by cows.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/25/police-appeal-for-witnesses-after-second-walker-killed-by-cows
I walked northumberland just before lockdown and had to jump over a wall due to the largest herd of cows Ive ever seen. I ended up in a very boggy field that I had to walk for a good mile detour.  I'm not sure what breed they were. I avoid belted galloways as ive been chased by that breed twice and caught my leg on barbed wire. My family had farms and I spent my childhood on farms. I am not a lover of cows and avoid them.   

 
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: harland on 16:16:10, 27/09/20
It is time I took more care when encountering cows in future, I must admit I always think "I'll be alright".

"A woman has been taken to hospital with serious injuries after being trampled by a herd of cows in a field on Monday in Leicestershire. The woman was hurt as she walked her dog across a field off Mill Lane in Hoby some time before noon on Monday September 21. An eyewitness, who came across the scene and called the police, said she had been told that the injured woman had a fractured neck, broken sternum, broken collar bone and a number of broken ribs."
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: April on 16:49:38, 27/09/20
I've been charged at by a cow or bull in the same area as the man who died near Thirlwall Castle. I was lucky, the farmer who was on a quad bike saw the cow charging at me and drove up the field and got between me and the cow and I got over the stile and to safety. I was alone, no dog and was simply walking through the field.


RIP  :(  The man who died was from Carlisle.


There has been another attack in Cumbria
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-54273954 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-54273954)


Poor woman, it must have been terrifying  :(
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: sussamb on 08:58:28, 28/09/20
I've had the odd experience with cattle, once when even though I thought I'd given a cow and calf a wide enough berth the cow clearly disagreed, a quick change of direction and she stopped heading towards me and returned to her calf. Second was a group of about 20 or so very young and inquisitive bullocks who came towards me then stopped dead when I turned around to face them, needed a couple of face offs before I reached the stile out of the field. 


I've never hesitated to trespass when needed though to avoid cattle that I don't like the look of.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: jimbob on 09:10:29, 28/09/20
A report on Hadrians Wall facebook page tells of a motorist who rescued a cyclisr  near Burgh being harassed by a cow, he put his car between cow and cyclist and got him to safety, on returning down the road to get back to where he was going, the same cow was attacking two walkers. A friend of mine, had to have a leg amputated due to an attack. He was a farmer, and had reared the herd and was familiar with all of them, but he made a mistake which cost him his leg.  Be wary, they can be as unpredictable as humans.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: Eyelet on 10:26:14, 28/09/20
Just back from a superb walk over Cross Fell yesterday with a friend and no dog. On our return to Milburn our route took us on the footpath from Ranbeck to Wythwaite adopted by the A Pennine Journey Trail. We passed through a gate with a “Caution - Cows with calves can be aggressive” notice on it. We could see a herd of cows and calves ahead accompanied by a substantial bull. We walked across the field giving them a very wide berth. The cattle all watched us but made no movements towards us whatsoever. When we reached the cottage at Wythwaite we met a lovely lady who had unfortunately been attacked by one of the same cows in the same field a few weeks back also without a dog, sustaining injury. She had remained on the track and thought she was far enough away from them. The farmer came and removed half the animals to a different field and mentioned that the weather conditions could make them skittish, which I’d not heard before.

I must have walked through fields with cattle on hundreds of occasions without a problem. I always treat them with respect especially if cows are with their calves and plan my route accordingly, also looking at whether the walls/fences could be climbed if necessary. I also look for the presence of other walkers relative to me, whether they have dogs with them, and how the cattle are reacting. One thing to look for is when the calves are in the centre of a ring of their mothers, a bit like the circle of a wagon train when attacked by Indians in the movies, keeping their animals in the centre. You obviously want to keep very well clear of this formation, regardless of the line of the footpath. If the circle is in the middle of a long narrow field, this would be an indication for a spot of trespassing to avoid it.

Like Sussamb, I have met herds of young inquisitive bullocks who have galloped up a field to inspect me a few times, but never aggressively and readily faced-off. (I accept that others might regard this behaviour differently, especially if they can’t identify them as bullocks!) :-\

The only time I have ever had an issue was on a trek in Ladakh where two of us met a youngish one-horned yak, who looked like he had been recently fighting and was still in some pain judging by the bellowing and the bloody stump of the missing horn. When it pawed the ground and began to move towards us, it took successive fusillades of well-aimed stones of increasing size to drive it away and it happily retreated for good. ;D
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: Lakeland Lorry on 16:05:08, 04/10/20
Sadly, another walker has been killed by cows.   That's three walkers killed within one month.


https://www.farminguk.com/news/third-walker-killed-by-cows-within-space-of-one-month_56660.html?fbclid=IwAR0TszUB6WrmgkHmYhe3fbYxl068fVKJzLmN5ddupXnowiTODfWvUGSNFlM#disqus_thread



Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: April on 07:57:13, 05/10/20
More sad news  :(


Yet there will still be replies from some of the clever folk on here saying it is people's perception of cows behaviour or the way they have re-acted to the cattle that has been the problem.



Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: WhitstableDave on 09:22:29, 05/10/20
More sad news  :(

Yet there will still be replies from some of the clever folk on here saying it is people's perception of cows behaviour or the way they have re-acted to the cattle that has been the problem.

Agreed. It irritates me to read blasé tutorials on how to deal with cattle. Many here have walked past cattle without incident countless times, but it only takes one near miss or serious encounter to change ones attitude and I suspect that the blasé ones haven't had any of those yet.

I think that members of a walking forum should warn less experienced walkers of the potential dangers of cattle in terms of being wary, and taking avoiding action whenever possible rather than taking the tough guy approach or sneering at those who choose caution.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: Murphy on 10:11:08, 05/10/20
April/WD
Your words are so true. I stopped posting on here because of belittling comments about my experiences of cattle.  Even the most experienced of us can have issues, with or without dogs, and I find the previous  blase attitude of some on here to be irresponsible. I do hope we all do take the question of dangers of cattle seriously and we don’t go down this route again. Believe me as one who knows from experience you really do need to take care



Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: barewirewalker on 10:34:05, 05/10/20
More sad news  :(


Yet there will still be replies from some of the clever folk on here saying it is people's perception of cows behaviour or the way they have re-acted to the cattle that has been the problem.
If you go far enough back in my posts I think it will be found that I sang from that particular song sheet. But before I go wholehearted into the this line or reasoning, I feel those here, who think me too critical of landowners and farmers, should reall be thinking where does the blame really lie.
Agreed. It irritates me to read blasé tutorials on how to deal with cattle. Many here have walked past cattle without incident countless times, but it only takes one near miss or serious encounter to change ones attitude and I suspect that the blasé ones haven't had any of those yet.

I think that members of a walking forum should warn less experienced walkers of the potential dangers of cattle in terms of being wary, and taking avoiding action whenever possible rather than taking the tough guy approach or sneering at those who choose caution.
Having been around on this forum for some years I think I can sense a lessening of those sentiments, yet I also believe that there is a sentiment of appeasement towards farmers or in actual terms the agricultural industry among the public in general. The whole issue livestock safety in the countryside is a series of chapters of mismanagement based one sectors unwillingness to take responsibility to change and it goes back decades. Perhaps the Livestock sector should have recognised some of the symptoms 30-40 years ago, but the real issue is the land managers failure to recognise that the public have right to be in the countryside, be there safely, without compromising access. 


Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: ninthace on 10:43:18, 05/10/20
It is true there are incidents involving cows and walkers.  Most also involve dogs but they are very few and those involving walkers without dogs are even fewer.  There are other more common causes of injuries and deaths to walkers in the countryside.  Slips, falls, road traffic accidents, hypothermia, medical emergencies in remote locations.  A sense of proportion regarding risk is required.


Late edit - I posted in haste on my way out for a walk/paddle
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: Mel on 13:16:27, 05/10/20

More sad news  :(

Yet there will still be replies from some of the clever folk on here saying it is people's perception of cows behaviour or the way they have re-acted to the cattle that has been the problem.





Wholeheartedly agree April.  Unfortunately, it looks as if you have been proved correct.

 
Perhaps another topic could be started by anyone who wishes to discuss walking through livestock and leave this one available for those who wish to pay their respects to the loss of a life.
 
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: WhitstableDave on 13:51:49, 05/10/20
... the real issue is the land managers failure to recognise that the public have right to be in the countryside, be there safely, without compromising access.

I think you're absolutely right BWW.  O0

There are, of course, other causes of injury and death to walkers, but few (if any) involve unprovoked attacks by someone else's animal when walking on a public right of way. I would like to see real accountability in these circumstances so that it doesn't pay for livestock owners to take chances with people's lives.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: sussamb on 13:52:07, 05/10/20
I went on a 'livestock awareness course' a few years ago, should anyone here like the handout I was given please pm me your email and I'll send you a copy.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: Lakeland Lorry on 17:19:17, 05/10/20
This article, on the KillerCows.co.uk website, regarding the stats for attacks by cows, makes for some interesting reading


https://killercows.co.uk/facts-stats/cattle-attack-statistics-an-alternative-view/







Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: sussamb on 17:43:56, 05/10/20
Interesting article.  Must say if I can find a way around cows I tend to take it, even if that means deviating from the ROW and trespassing  O0
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: WhitstableDave on 18:16:44, 05/10/20
Yes, a very interesting and well written article. Thanks.  O0
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: pleb on 18:22:58, 05/10/20
Blimey I have walked near there :(
Can't recall any cows though.
RIP
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: April on 18:30:51, 05/10/20
April/WD
Your words are so true. I stopped posting on here because of belittling comments about my experiences of cattle. 


I was thinking of you as I wrote the post this morning, I always remember what happened to you Murphy.


If you go far enough back in my posts I think it will be found that I sang from that particular song sheet.


I wasn't thinking about your posts when I wrote the post this morning BWW.


Wholeheartedly agree April. 
 


I always hope anyone who has lost someone to an attack by cattle does not read some of the posts on these topics where the blame is nearly always levelled at the walker by some posters. Not very respectful or helpful.


This article, on the KillerCows.co.uk website, regarding the stats for attacks by cows, makes for some interesting reading


https://killercows.co.uk/facts-stats/cattle-attack-statistics-an-alternative-view/ (https://killercows.co.uk/facts-stats/cattle-attack-statistics-an-alternative-view/)


I remember reading this article a few years ago. The number of incidents involving cattle where injury has only just been avoided is not recorded except for websites like Killer Cows.


Must say if I can find a way around cows I tend to take it, even if that means deviating from the ROW and trespassing  O0


We were walking on Hadrian's Wall yesterday and there was a sign saying anyone who wanted to, could deviate from the right of way to avoid any cattle then rejoin it when the cattle were passed.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: barewirewalker on 10:28:51, 06/10/20

Perhaps another topic could be started by anyone who wishes to discuss walking through livestock and leave this one available for those who wish to pay their respects to the loss of a life.
I would agree with this if it was a book of remembrance that the OP was asking for. Too often we get links without comment from an OP, so those commenting are blindly trying to join into a discussion without direction, not in this topic.

Todays news. I'm not going to go into it too much as its a friend of a friend. However I appreciate farmers have to graze livestock but its about time ROW were made safe with electric fencing to keep cows away from walkers. I dont trust cows and my family had dairy farms.
 https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/people/richmond-school-teacher-killed-cows-while-walking-his-dogs-2980002
But that does not seem to be the OP's purpose for posting the link to yet another tragic event. The article I posted, from the British farmer (http://www.walkingforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=40980.msg593203#msg593203) suggests more than electric fences, but shouldn't we as walkers allow our opinions be heard in open forum. There are many silent watchers and perhaps our opinions may go further. The British Farmer's article is a sad indictment of too little far too late. I first heard the warning signals at an Agricultural show in the 1970's, from cattle stewards, when it was my job to organize the all livestock parade in the main ring. Even then we were expected to recognize safety procedures.


Recently I met a farmer I knew from college days, he was doing community service, because as landowner, he was found jointly responsible for a fatal accident to a contractors employee. It was the NFU that managed to keep him out of prison not the CLA. Landowners repeatedly fail to own up to the reasons we have to have Rights of Way to access our countryside, it is because of their historical and repeated opposition to sharing the countryside.

If the head was made to take responsibility for it's tail, perhaps some meaningful safety protocols might be the result.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: WhitstableDave on 13:05:21, 06/10/20
...
... but shouldn't we as walkers allow our opinions be heard in open forum. There are many silent watchers and perhaps our opinions may go further.
...

That is exactly the reason why I get irritated by macho and blasé accounts by some members who downplay the potential dangers from cattle. We should not forget that forum posts are read by a far, far greater number of casual visitors who are looking for information than we might imagine. Therefore (I believe), forum members have a responsibility to encourage caution and wariness in their posts on the subject, as well as giving advice based on experience that promotes a safety-first approach.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: ninthace on 14:15:53, 06/10/20
That is exactly the reason why I get irritated by macho and blasé accounts by some members who downplay the potential dangers from cattle. We should not forget that forum posts are read by a far, far greater number of casual visitors who are looking for information than we might imagine. Therefore (I believe), forum members have a responsibility to encourage caution and wariness in their posts on the subject, as well as giving advice based on experience that promotes a safety-first approach.
Equally I do not believe we should foster a spirit of hysteria.  The very fact that incidents involving cows make the news shows just how rare they are.  We do not yet know the circumstances of the last tragic incident so we should reserve comment.  I would always urge treating cows with respect and heeding the advice concerning cows with calves or entering a field of cows with a dog in company.  Cows are prey animals, they will react defensively if they feel that they, or their young, are threatened.  I am especially cautious of large groups of young animals which can be quite boisterous and accidents can happen.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: Dodgylegs on 17:03:17, 06/10/20
Found out this afternoon why new signage appeared on styles around local farmers fields... (26/9)
Talking to a guy I know who came across someone he regularly meets whilst out walking his dog, his face was in a right state...
Asked what had happened, 'those cows I walk through nearly everyday have trampled me, should see the state of my back'.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: ninthace on 20:36:12, 06/10/20
Two useful videos here.
Walking or running across a field of cattle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVSU54mzljg
Crossing a field of cattle with a dog. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWmpwwhuoM4
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: April on 21:08:24, 06/10/20
Two useful videos here.


The cattle in the videos were quite calm, just a bit curious and they were his cattle so they knew him. The cattle were trotting a bit but were not aggressive or charging. Cows behaving like this are fine/normal so the videos are not that useful unless you have never been in a field with cattle before.











Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: ninthace on 21:13:39, 06/10/20

The cattle in the videos were quite calm, just a bit curious and they were his cattle so they knew him. The cattle were trotting a bit but were not aggressive or charging. Cows behaving like this are fine/normal so the videos are not that useful unless you have never been in a field with cattle before.
Perhaps you had something more like this in mind, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcCMQe4S4ho (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcCMQe4S4ho) but if you watch it to the end, they are just curious.


Or this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfXhsuyM7sA  Can you see what they did wrong?
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: April on 21:20:50, 06/10/20
Perhaps you had something more like this in mind, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcCMQe4S4ho (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcCMQe4S4ho) but if you watch it to the end, they are just curious.


 ;D  No ninthace, I don't. The cattle were not really attacking? They were eating grass for goodness sake.



Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: barewirewalker on 11:31:28, 07/10/20
Two useful videos here.
Walking or running across a field of cattle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVSU54mzljg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVSU54mzljg)
Crossing a field of cattle with a dog. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWmpwwhuoM4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWmpwwhuoM4)
clicked on the the second of your links, not that have a dog.  ::) Anyway this link caught my eye; How Dangerous Are Cows To Walkers? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci_LsMCbi70)
Left me a bit puzzled, when young farmers today don't differentiate between cows and heifers, I wonder are they qualified to do undertake a Safety Assessment. I agree with you absolutely about not over reacting, on the flip of the coin the inaction of the Agricultural Industry to react at all is probably is the issue we should be more concerned about.


At least the chap with the dog is demonstrating in a field with Beef Yearlings and he does refer to them as cattle, these will be a mixture of heifers and bullocks. Dairy Heifer followers will all have been reared on the bucket.


In both, the animals are all young stock. These are the type of herds found on lowlands, have these two stockmen been to agricultural college, if so they should be aware that location makes a difference to the types of herds the walker is likely to come in contact with. There is now a distinct difference between the types of colleges for further education, training and learning. When further learning is divorced from research it becomes static.
Title: Re: Cows again
Post by: Jac on 11:44:17, 07/10/20
clicked on the the second of your links, not that have a dog.  ::) Anyway this link caught my eye; How Dangerous Are Cows To Walkers? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ci_LsMCbi70)
 Dairy Heifer followers will all have been reared on the bucket.

A minor point not actually related to the risk element of cattle but I am pleased to buy milk from what they term an 'ethical' dairy - i.e. one where the cows raise their own calves rather than the calves being bucket fed.  Just thought this might be of interest to some.