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Main Boards => Gear => Topic started by: frustin on 16:21:19, 13/12/17

Title: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: frustin on 16:21:19, 13/12/17
I know this has been discussed a few times over the years. However I'm trying to decide if i want to buy a standalone GPS.  I have budget for a Oregon 700/750/750t, however, all the walks i've done this year (about 400 odd miles worth), i've found that my iPhone 6s with Outdoors GPS app (which i pay for 1:50 OS maps) has done a brilliant job.


My concern is that i am going to wales for new year.  The weather is not known for being stable and usually blimmin cold at that time.  I have a battery pack that i usually take with me for walks, and i dont take paper maps (i dont own a printer).  The iphone has a drop proof and waterproof case so no water ingress will happen.  Outdoors GPS is great because its a cheap year OS subscription and it map's my walks.


The phone could die and it's good to have a back up.  Or perhaps i should just use the Garmin and have the smartphone as the backup, but then i think that the smartphone probably trumps the garmin for tech.  I'd be annoyed if the phone worked better than the garmin.  Maps are not waterproof and cumbersome and i'm not sure which walks i want to do sometimes or then i change my mind depending on the weather.


Decisions decisions.
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: gunwharfman on 16:32:58, 13/12/17
Personally I use my smartphone and I have a large backup battery which charges my phone about 5 times before it too needs charging. I've stopped using maps and use the app Backcountry, for the UK and SityTrail for France.  I usually stick to National Trails and other well known routes so my phone to me is more than enough.
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: bricam2096 on 16:43:02, 13/12/17
Personally I use my smartphone and I have a large backup battery which charges my phone about 5 times before it too needs charging. I've stopped using maps and use the app Backcountry, for the UK and SityTrail for France.  I usually stick to National Trails and other well known routes so my phone to me is more than enough.

I hope you never lose your phone  O0
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: sussamb on 16:44:02, 13/12/17
I carry a Garmin as my primary nav aid and my phone as a back up.  I don't carry maps.  I do so because I find my Garmin easier to use.  YMMV.
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: frustin on 17:29:35, 13/12/17
losing my phone is what i'm concerned about, it's the only variable that i cant de-risk.  but then i buy a £500 gps and i will feel that i should use that instead.
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: Mel on 19:12:33, 13/12/17

frustin - if you can't print, Ordnance Survey do a grand range of paper maps.  They can be bought a little cheaper here:


https://dash4it.co.uk/ordnance-survey-maps/series/explorer.html


Hope this helps  :)
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: sussamb on 19:52:21, 13/12/17
losing my phone is what i'm concerned about, it's the only variable that i cant de-risk.  but then i buy a £500 gps and i will feel that i should use that instead.


I would never spend that amount on a GPS.  My Etrex cost around £120.
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: jimbob on 20:16:42, 13/12/17
Smartphone that use,  say Viewranger, are really cheap in supermarkets.[sub £30 ] Don't even need a sim. I use one of those as back up to my cheap EBOG Etrex. My compass and maps stay in my bag.  Map readers are aware that it is just as easy to mislay a compass as it is to mislay a phone, surely?

Wainwright never used a compass. Nuff said.
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: Lemmy on 20:36:15, 13/12/17
I'm a proud dumphone owner so can't really advise on the efficacy of smartphones for nav purposes.  Maps and Garmin for me too.
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: jontea on 21:43:58, 13/12/17
I carry maps (in rucksack) have Garmin GPS, but to be honest, in the last couple of years I've used my IPhone6s more and more for navigating. Using 'Outdoor GPS' it's just so easy to see, zoom in and out to see the wider area.
So the mobi has a yes from me  O0
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: gunwharfman on 10:08:18, 14/12/17
Losing my phone is always a possibility but I keep it in a waterproof bag permanently attached to me via a landyard. The one thing that does annoy me about the latest phones is there is no secure point on them as there used to be. So what would I do if I did lose my phone? I'd walk, bus or hitchhike to the nearest shop and buy a new one I suppose, or buy a map.
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: frustin on 10:14:04, 14/12/17
Losing my phone is always a possibility but I keep it in a waterproof bag permanently attached to me via a landyard. The one thing that does annoy me about the latest phones is there is no secure point on them as there used to be. So what would I do if I did lose my phone? I'd walk, bus or hitchhike to the nearest shop and buy a new one I suppose, or buy a map.


There's a front pocket on my paramo that i would have stored my map when walking. i put my phone in that.  with a water proof case as well, it works nicely.  That's good in conditions that arnt too harsh, but black mountains in the winter is more of a worry.
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: ninthace on 10:51:58, 14/12/17
I find the trouble with my phone is the screen is hard to read in bright light, it isn’t waterproof and has no attachment point. Also I have to unlock it to use it and if I close the case it shuts off to conserve the battery which is irritating.
On the other hand my gps has a bright screen which is always on, is weatherproof, has a clip to attach it to my shoulder strap and a lanyard so it doesn’t hit the floor if I drop it. Moreover, the batteries last for multiple trips and I carry a spare set of AAs in my bag.
Actual maps are a faff; they have to be got out and unfolded before use and then put away again, not to mention coping with them in a breeze. Either that or they have to be prefolded and carried in a map holder which either flails around in the slightest breeze or has to tucked away to the point where you can’t get at it easily anyway. I print out my maps onto A4 sheets, double sided and then put them in a clear wallet which gets folded into 4 and put in a trouser pocket.
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: frustin on 10:53:40, 14/12/17
I find the trouble with my phone is the screen is hard to read in bright light, it isn’t waterproof and has no attachment point. Also I have to unlock it to use it and if I close the case it shuts off to conserve the battery which is irritating.
On the other hand my gps has a bright screen which is always on, is weatherproof, has a clip to attach it to my shoulder strap and a lanyard so it doesn’t hit the floor if I drop it. Moreover, the batteries last for multiple trips and I carry a spare set of AAs in my bag.


What GPS do you own?
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: ninthace on 10:57:24, 14/12/17

What GPS do you own?
Etrex30. Much the same an Etrex 20 but with extra bells and whistles. It was a present.
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: happyhiker on 13:09:07, 14/12/17
To say I don't agree with smartphones almost sounds like an anti-religious rant in this day and age but I resist as I don't want to fall into the trap of having my nose in one when I should be socialising. So until it packs up, I have my ancient Nokia. It's is small, light, lasts ages on a charge and does everything I want a phone to do.


For planning walks, I use Memory Map, Bing (as I don't have 1:25000 for the whole country for Memory Map) and/or paper maps. It really depends whether I happen to be on the PC, iPad or not or on holiday. Either way, I love my paper maps and always take one on walks, plus compass.


For navigation in the field, I generally use my old Garmin Geko, with pre planned routes downloaded. It does not have maps but is perfectly adequate most of the time. Once you get detailed maps on these machines, the cost shoots up and I balk at paying! I am a Yorkshireman!


Occasionally, I need the map if, for example, I need to know which side of a field boundary the path runs, if not clear on the ground. Sometimes, especially across farmland, it is actually easier to use the map as you can keep track of where you are in relation to farm buildings, fields etc.


Currently debating with myself whether paper maps or the laminated variety are best. For some areas, I have both. Paper maps can be folded over in a map case for the bit you want but often have to be taken out and re-folded. A pain, especially if it rains or is windy. Laminated ones are too bulky to keep folded over in a map case, so you have to open the whole thing out each time, though more manageable in wind. Printing out and laminating. (Say from Bing) is not always practicable as you might need several sheets. Anyone got any views?
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: Lemmy on 14:04:46, 14/12/17
I print out the main pages I'll need from QUO and slip them in the map holder. Makes them easily accessible, and I don't crynwhen they get soggy. I keep the OS map proper in my pack as a back up.  I carry a compass but don't use it much - there are usually sufficient landmarks and handrails to navigate without.
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: photonut on 14:38:08, 14/12/17
I use the OS Explorer 1:25000 laminated maps and a compass.  So far I've never had a problem partially opening the map out to the desired part I need whilst out in inclement weather (plenty of opportunities in the future for that plan to go awry I'm sure).  I guess in this day and age navigating by map and compass is a little 'old fashioned' but I enjoy the challenge of getting from A to B using that method.  However, I always have my Garmin 64 primarily as a tracker to see where I've been and how long/ fast it took me.  Additionally the GPS is with me for those moments when, what I see around me, no longer resembles what I think I should be seeing on the map :D  I've only had to use it a few times whilst out walking thankfully.

I do have my smartphone with me but switched off.  I've never been sure of the phones capability to predict my position accurately and how long the battery would last (that's pure ignorance on my behalf though), hence I purchased a dedicated device that I was confident would be able to do the job when required.


frustin - if you can't print, Ordnance Survey do a grand range of paper maps.  They can be bought a little cheaper here:


https://dash4it.co.uk/ordnance-survey-maps/series/explorer.html (https://dash4it.co.uk/ordnance-survey-maps/series/explorer.html)


Hope this helps  :)

..or pop along to Go-outdoors and get a price match... that way you get them even cheaper than Dash4it :)

Cheers
Lee
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: fernman on 18:34:54, 14/12/17
I do have my smartphone with me but switched off.  I've never been sure of the phones capability to predict my position accurately and how long the battery would last

The GPS to Grid Ref app on my Windows Phone uses the phone's gps and it works when there's no signal. It's as accurate as you could wish, though I only use it to find the ref on a paper map; it'll show a spot on a map on the screen but as I enlarge the map it moves off centre. I assume there are similar apps or better for Android and iPhones.

I'm only a novice when it comes to saving battery, but I do things like disabling apps I won't be using during a hike, not using the camera (I prefer my compact), turn off email and wifi, and set it to 3G rather than 4G. I'm not sure but I think Airplane Mode will do a lot of that as well. Staring with a full charge, my phone easily lasted 4 days on my last long walk.
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: gunwharfman on 18:53:44, 14/12/17
'I've never been sure of the phones capability to predict my position' In 2015 I was walking the GR10 in the Pyrenees and in one section it was really, really foggy. In fact it was so foggy I lost the route and felt very nervous. I looked at my SityTrail app and it guided me back to the track, thereafter everytime I verred off more than three or four feet the phone bleeped twice, when I returned to the track it bleeped again, it was very comforting. Its the one and only time I've had this problem. Mind you, staring at the screen, for what became a four hour foggy trek, really made my eyes ache and water and then suddenly I was out in sunshine.
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: jimbob on 00:47:13, 15/12/17
When using GPS on a smartphone you do not need  a sim card installed.  Since you use the same satellites as say a Garmin, then the accuracy is exactly the same. (The software that works out the positioning from satellites is mainly open source, I believe).  I also have a small solar charged battery back up which is surprisingly efficient even at this time of year.
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: sussamb on 06:46:14, 15/12/17
Since you use the same satellites as say a Garmin, then the accuracy is exactly the same.

I don't believe you can say that.  Tests I've done indicate a dedicated GPS is more accurate than a smartphone, what I can say though for the sort of navigation that walkers need a smartphone using GPS is more than sufficient.  There are other reasons why I prefer my GPS, but I can understand why others might prefer a smartphone.
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: geordie33 on 08:20:50, 15/12/17
I have ran viewranger and garmin side by side.Viewranger looses signal easier (much smaller antenna)and measures about 10% less than garmin in mixed walking.It is adequate in my view for moderate walking.Last week I lost my garmin 62s in a snowdrift.Happily it was recovered 24 hours later and it was still working and the batteries had plenty left in them which is why I prefer gps.A smartphone would be dead if a similar thing happened.
I am also running an OS subscription.Good value at £20 with all of the 1.25 maps etc
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: photonut on 08:32:25, 15/12/17
Perhaps these are worth reading:

https://www.quora.com/How-accurate-is-mobile-phone-GPS (https://www.quora.com/How-accurate-is-mobile-phone-GPS)

http://www.zdnet.com/article/your-phones-gps-is-about-to-get-a-massive-upgrade/ (http://www.zdnet.com/article/your-phones-gps-is-about-to-get-a-massive-upgrade/)

Like Sussamb, I understand why some prefer to solely use their mobile phones, it is after all a big cost saving (and half the weight too).  I prefer to have a separate dedicated unit for the task, predominantly because I walk alone and if anything nav related goes awry then I like the confidence of being able to sort it out with my Garmin.

Cheers
Lee
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: jimbob on 10:17:35, 15/12/17
Sussamb I have  never looked too closely. The differences may be caused solely by mathematical inaccuracies, (rounding errors) rather than differences caused by the satellites. Even though the basic software is the same Android may round up to less decimal places than say Garmin , which cumulatively will lead to differences, however small. In fact Geordie33 has a valid point re antennae.  Scan rates may also cause differences, (how often the phone questions the satellites compared to the dedicated device) What is solid fact is that they use the same basic software and the same satellites.

Like you & Geordie33 I tend to mainly use my old Garmin due to its solidity and reliability. I use Viewranger, as my track recorder now. In fact most everything I know about my Garmin has been gleaned from this forum. One day I may even buy a newer version, but hey I'm a tightwad and this one works.
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: Doddy on 13:59:34, 19/12/17

I now use a Lenovo2 phone which because it has a large battery weighs in at 6 oz.
I now use Memory Map (MM) all of GB at 1:25K on the phone.[/color]  
That battery gives three days use.
I get more than three days use [/color]  
as I carry printed off maps of my routes and only use the phone when clarity is needed


My set up important to me as I wild camped all the National Trails therefore could not recharge phones very often. Several years ago I did the earlier trails without a phone or techy maps; later ones I did with a LG Nexus 4 phone with MM GB1:50K maps on it but I had to nurse the battery all the time.
 
I walked Glyndwrs Way recently and needed the phone maps a lot as the waymarks/stiles were often just out of sight over a brow and the phone maps were great as I knew which direction to head for the stile/gate and avoided wandering around field boundaries looking for them.
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: NeilC on 15:22:25, 20/12/17
I think it depends on the sort of walks and conditions. For day walks and overnighters in reasonable conditions a phone is easily good enough and dream compared to manual map reading in foggy conditions or going off path. But if you're going on extended trips or in cold conditions where you need your gloves on then a dedicated unit with replaceable batteries and big buttons is going to pay dividends.

I use my cheapo phone and bought the the viewranger 1:50K maps which cover all the UK national parks and it only costs £10!
Previously I'd been buying waterproof Explorer maps which aren't cheap but are massive pain the the [censored] to carry and unfold in the wind etc. I was surprised how I didn't miss the 1:25K details, mostly because I can see exactly where I am on the screen. So the small details aren't so important. I just wish my phone had compass - something I forget to check when I bought it. So everything is North.
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: Doddy on 16:06:33, 20/12/17

There are compass apps for a phone.
I have no connection with Lenovo phones, I should have mentioned with such a large battery for a three day trip there is no need to take a charger; though you may feel more secure if you do.The phone also is a quick charger.
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: Mel on 18:31:17, 20/12/17
...  Since you use the same satellites as say a Garmin, then the accuracy is exactly the same. ..


I think the processing power of your device (certainly with a smartphone) plays a part.  I have 2 phones, both with ViewRanger installed.  Sat in my house, my older one will plot me as being on the road outside and the location jumps about a bit when zoomed in (accurate enough for my needs though), the newer one plots me actually in my house, some 20ft away from the road and seems more stable in terms of jumping about.


Just my observations anyway.  Can't pass comment on a dedicated GPS's (eg. Garmin) accuracy in that respect as I don't have one.
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: fernman on 20:01:59, 20/12/17
There are compass apps for a phone.

But not for Windows Phones up to and including 8.1, regrettably for me and anyone else who has one, they are only for Windows Phone 10.
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: NeilC on 21:02:50, 20/12/17
A compass app requires your phone to have a compass built into it. My cheapo Moto G4 doesn't :-(
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: BuzyG on 21:51:20, 20/12/17
Why not just carry a paper map and compass for back up?  Cheap, light weight and very very reliable. O0
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: gunwharfman on 22:07:02, 20/12/17
So very ASDA!  :D
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: pauldawes on 06:12:35, 21/12/17
Why not just carry a paper map and compass for back up?  Cheap, light weight and very very reliable. O0


The big advantage of doing that is that it’s probably better to have a paper map with you IF a major route change neeeds planning.


Easier to look at a large area of terrain on a paper map than on most GPS. (Certainly on device I use..know some people use tablets with good size screen.)
Title: Re: smartphone/GPS/map
Post by: BuzyG on 16:24:43, 21/12/17
When the day comes that my tablet weighs the same as an OS map and has an unbreakable screen plus, 100 hours full use battery life,  I'll be ditching the paper map.  Until then the paper map is  the simplest lightest back up, for me, should my smart Phone die, for some reason. O0