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Main Boards => General Walking Discussion => Topic started by: Agentorange on 19:56:15, 15/09/20

Title: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: Agentorange on 19:56:15, 15/09/20
I normally walk in kent and thus far have managed never to let lost. There's been a few times I wasn't entirely sure where I was....but never totally adrift.

Today i managed it.  :)

Only by a mile or so. I was walking down near westerham, everything was fine until I got into the woods, and then what was on the map bore zero relation to what was on the ground. The PROW on the map just vanished....and there were loads of paths that weren't on the map. came out by Chartwell and then I knew where I was.

I would post a picture, but keep getting a message saying I've exceeded my character allowance
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: WhitstableDave on 22:11:35, 15/09/20
With most of my walking being in Kent and a lot of that in woods, I know exactly what you mean.

There are of course many reasons why maps often don't reflect reality in woodland. Paths get blocked by fallen trees and undergrowth or they get flooded or extremely muddy and people make detours which can quickly become new paths.

Just a few days ago, my wife and I were walking in Blean Woods, which at 11 sq miles are very extensive. I had my GPS and we were following a route I'd plotted using the OS map. At one point, there was no sign of the path we wanted to take so we followed another that went in a similar direction - keeping an eye on our actual position by GPS and how it related to where we needed to be. Eventually we came across an unmarked path that got us back on track.

Later, we arrived at a junction I know quite well; it's roughly in the middle of the OS map below where no fewer than 7 paths meet. We wanted the path that passes just south of the reservoir, but even with GPS we followed the wrong path for a while before retracing our steps.

(http://www.cruisingmates.co.uk/coppermine/albums/userpics/10054/Woods_OS_paths.jpg)

People who can navigate in woods such as these using only a paper map are clearly better navigators than I am.   :)
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: ninthace on 22:38:23, 15/09/20
A trick that often works at a multiway junctions.  Normally you know which path you came in on so just count round the exits from the left or right on the map and then do the same on the ground.  Then zoom your gps to high magnification as you start off down your chosen path and look to see which way the track line is going.  You should know you are right well within 50 metres.  It is quicker and easier than fishing the compass out to check you are going on the right bearing, especially if the path winds.


P.S.  If they existed on the ground, you also had some field boundaries to play with too, which can help.
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: BuzyG on 08:30:10, 16/09/20
Your never lost with GPS. You just lose your relationship to your immediate surroundings.  Not quite the same, or is it?  Understand able in dense woodland where, as you say, path change course far more often than maps are updated. You just have to trust the pesky clever little plastic box.  O0
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: fernman on 08:43:00, 16/09/20
I got into the woods, and then what was on the map bore zero relation to what was on the ground. The PROW on the map just vanished....and there were loads of paths that weren't on the map.

That's a situation I'm quite familiar with in the Chilterns  :)
Luckily I have a good sense of direction, so I continue on what I assume to be the correct path, but after a while, or if I reach the edge of the wood, whichever comes first, I check my grid reference on my phone and see where I am on my paper map. (That's a mix of new and old technology which Ninthace and BuzyG won't like!)

Regarding exceeding your character allowance, that means your photo is too big, it must be below a certain number of pixels to post on this site. I can't remember how many, but it's pretty low. Try using ImgBB or PostImage.
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: WhitstableDave on 09:13:30, 16/09/20
A trick that often works at a multiway junctions.  Normally you know which path you came in on so just count round the exits from the left or right on the map and then do the same on the ground.  Then zoom your gps to high magnification as you start off down your chosen path and look to see which way the track line is going.  You should know you are right well within 50 metres.  It is quicker and easier than fishing the compass out to check you are going on the right bearing, especially if the path winds.

P.S.  If they existed on the ground, you also had some field boundaries to play with too, which can help.

Of course my example was in the context of paths on the ground not necessarily correlating with what the map might show.  :)

So, when what appears to be three paths heading east-ish turns out to be one path that forks into two after a while and where one of the new paths also forks into two after a while, then things can get a little more complicated. As you suggest though, these little tests are usually easily sorted out within 50yds!
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: gunwharfman on 10:27:06, 16/09/20
I zoomed my mobile phone Backcountry app recently to find the way forward. I was walking along a single track and suddenly it became a three-way track, two of the paths were not shown on the OS map but zooming solved my difficulty. By zooming I could see that the map arrow tip pointed to the right hand one and within 200 yards I knew that my choice was the correct one.
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: pauldawes on 11:01:40, 16/09/20
Cities, woods...these (barring fogs) must up there in terms of most difficult terrain to navigate.


In my case can get lost in even a small wood if I try to follow a path...in my experience usually a ton of paths not marked on my map.


It’s one of few times I usually get my compass out...my usual “technique” is to decide roughly where I want to exit the wood..see what direction I need to walk in to achieve that...then use compass to walk vaguely in that direction.


Then once out of wood, check where I am.
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: ninthace on 12:36:41, 16/09/20
Your never lost with GPS. You just lose your relationship to your immediate surroundings.  Not quite the same, or is it?  Understand able in dense woodland where, as you say, path change course far more often than maps are updated. You just have to trust the pesky clever little plastic box.  O0
I can't let that assertion about losing your relationship immediate surroundings pass.  I find the very reverse is true.The gps gives a close up map of your immediate surroundings and precisely where you are in relation to them.  I am still map reading but I am in a postion to appreciate and exploit the finest nuances in the map.  For example, this morning I used just such an opportunity to find my way along a complex and somewhat muddy route through a maze of farm buildings.
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: BuzyG on 13:06:22, 16/09/20
Completely correct.  O0  Except in the context of this thread, where it is presented that the map is wrong.  So there is a difference between what the map on the GPS indicates is around you and what is actually around you. The fact that you are zoomed in will only exasperate the point, as such map errors are usually eliminated if you are able to view the bigger picture.


Forestry land is a classic.  The GPS map shows you as in the middle of a plantation. In fact it was cropped six months ago and you can see a few distant features across a valley, that allow your mark one brain to work out that the map is wrong and you need to use those for navigation until you leave the plantation and can once again trust the zoomed in map on the GPS..


The reverse situation also applies where new planting has completely obscured the view. A compass and good instinct are your friends in those thankfully rare circumstances.  Moss really does grow on the cold damp side of the tree.  ;)
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: ninthace on 13:59:24, 16/09/20
I have had more than one run in with missing trees!  Years ago during a solo hike as a part of my Outward Bound, running on a bearing across Dartmoor in fog, I expected to run into a small triangular wood on the apex of a hill.  The ground stopped going up and started descending but no wood.  I wandered around trying to find the wood as I needed it for my next bearing,  Eventually I found a couple of stumps that had to suffice.  If only gps existed in those days.


These days felled plantations are not an issue, I have seen too many.  The paths are usually still there as is the underlying geography (watercourses, walls, contours etc.) and they will still fit the map the gps shows you.  I also have learned over the years, if the gps and the map don't match in the detail, trust the gps.
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: zuludog on 15:37:56, 16/09/20
I've never been walking in Kent; in fact the only times I've visited at all was as a boy for family holidays to Margate

However, I've always reckoned it is harder to navigate in 'civilised' and cultivated countryside than it is in the hills
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: BuzyG on 16:50:49, 16/09/20
That depends on the map you have.  Walking around a very different Singapore from the one I recalled from my youth.  Google Maps was ideal. O0


Trying to locate a quoit in the middle of a peat bog, in the UK, it is useless. Here a 25k OS map is perfect. O0
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: Dovegirl on 18:52:44, 16/09/20
I've always reckoned it is harder to navigate in 'civilised' and cultivated countryside than it is in the hills

I think this is often the case.  Some of the trickiest navigation I've experienced has been in the intricate network of fields in the Sussex Weald, even with gps.

I find Viewranger very useful for finding my way around urban areas.
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: Agentorange on 01:15:26, 17/09/20
I've toyed with the idea of getting a GPS device for a while, the luddite, purist part of me regards it as cheating. Whilst the bit of me that knows I've got a spare 2 litre bottle of chilled water in a freezer bag back at the car reckons it's a great idea.

I wasn't that bothered at the time the bit of wood i was in was between the B2026 and Mapleton Rd - Once I came out somewhere I knew I'd be fine, just perhaps having to walk a bit further than intended
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: pauldawes on 05:58:20, 17/09/20
I've toyed with the idea of getting a GPS device for a while, the luddite, purist part of me regards it as cheating. Whilst the bit of me that knows I've got a spare 2 litre bottle of chilled water in a freezer bag back at the car reckons it's a great idea.




Always tend to smile a bit at notion that GPS is “cheating” but map and compass is not.


There’s a good amount of advanced tech in a good map and compass...and few walkers make their own, or learn how to use without training or reading instruction books, etc.
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: Agentorange on 07:11:53, 17/09/20

Always tend to smile a bit at notion that GPS is “cheating” but map and compass is not.


There’s a good amount of advanced tech in a good map and compass...and few walkers make their own, or learn how to use without training or reading instruction books, etc.

I think it's because with map and compass you still have to work out where you are for yourself, whereas with a GPS it's being done for you. But you're right it doesn't make a huge amount of sense, I did say it was my more Luddite nature.....same reason I haven't got a Sat Nav in the car  :)
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: BuzyG on 13:23:28, 17/09/20
Interesting the different reasons people adopt or not GPS.  I was a keen advocate of OS app when it first came out.  Alas the later iterations they have over complicated it with, IMHO, pointless features.  It's clear others use those though.  Net result I have gone back from using GPS to using a map and compass, because it is all I need and it's  doddle after years of using them. O0
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: ninthace on 14:12:39, 17/09/20
I think it's because with map and compass you still have to work out where you are for yourself, whereas with a GPS it's being done for you. But you're right it doesn't make a huge amount of sense, I did say it was my more Luddite nature.....same reason I haven't got a Sat Nav in the car  :)
There has always been innovaton and the old ways are gradually replaced by easier ways of achieving the same goal.  Finding your way around in the countryside is just one such example.  Some people enjoy doing things the hard way, some folk don't.  The reasons for this are various.  Some people see merit in preserving the old ways, some people are unwilling/afraid/ incapable of learning new things.  Some folk just resist change.   Personally, I can still navigate the old way if I have to, but I find no virtue in it if I do not need to, others will have a different view.
And yes, my car does has a moving map display with navigation option.  I regard it as advisory rather than obligatory but it came in useful this morning when I tried to find my own way to a village hidden in the maze of lanes we have in Devon and ended up taking a wrong turn because I was too proud to use the satnav.

Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: ninthace on 14:21:06, 17/09/20
Interesting the different reasons people adopt or not GPS.  I was a keen advocate of OS app when it first came out.  Alas the later iterations they have over complicated it with, IMHO, pointless features.  It's clear others use those though.  Net result I have gone back from using GPS to using a map and compass, because it is all I need and it's  doddle after years of using them. O0
What features would these be Buzy?  I have no trouble with it but it is not my first choice as it cannot record a track while following a route.  Nevertheless, I have stuck with gps.  I use ViewRanger, the OS app and a Garmin Etrex.  The Garmin is my primary aid as it is most reliable and is built for the purpose and my phone apps as back up.  I also run VR on every trip so can produce routes from it to share with the walking community.
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: BuzyG on 18:22:11, 17/09/20
What features would these be Buzy?  I have no trouble with it but it is not my first choice as it cannot record a track while following a route.  Nevertheless, I have stuck with gps.  I use ViewRanger, the OS app and a Garmin Etrex.  The Garmin is my primary aid as it is most reliable and is built for the purpose and my phone apps as back up.  I also run VR on every trip so can produce routes from it to share with the walking community.


Worst was they changed the way it zooms in and out to make it more generic.  It means I can no longer zoom out on the 25k map stored on my phone, to look at the big picture.  It now switches to the 50k map and then another scale, as you zoom out.  This works great when I have a phone signal, but as soon as I don't, ie in the middle of nowhere when I need a map, I just get a useless blank screen or a tiny area at 25k :(


I drove up to Lynton VOTR to climb a few weeks back. Stopped in North Molton, to take a look at the map on the phone and surprise no signal.  Had to use my paper AA map.


No compass needed .btw ;)
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: WhitstableDave on 18:42:19, 17/09/20

Worst was they changed the way it zooms in and out to make it more generic.  It means I can no longer zoom out on the 25k map stored on my phone, to look at the big picture.  It now switches to the 50k map and then another scale, as you zoom out.  This works great when I have a phone signal, but as soon as I don't, ie in the middle of nowhere when I need a map, I just get a useless blank screen or a tiny area at 25k :(

I drove up to Lynton VOTR to climb a few weeks back. Stopped in North Molton, to take a look at the map on the phone and surprise no signal.  Had to use my paper AA map.

No compass needed .btw ;)

Apologies for butting in, but I've been assuming that discussions regarding GPS refer to dedicated GPS devices rather than phones that can do some of the same things, but by no means all.

For example, zooming in and out on a Satmap Active 20 is very different from what you described. Depending on the map card used, zooming can automatically switch between a whole series of maps from 1:10k street level through to the base map. Or the device can manually cycle through the installed maps: 10k, 25k, etc.

(I gave up trying to use a phone for navigating a long time ago!)
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: ninthace on 19:09:06, 17/09/20

Worst was they changed the way it zooms in and out to make it more generic.  It means I can no longer zoom out on the 25k map stored on my phone, to look at the big picture.  It now switches to the 50k map and then another scale, as you zoom out.  This works great when I have a phone signal, but as soon as I don't, ie in the middle of nowhere when I need a map, I just get a useless blank screen or a tiny area at 25k :(


I drove up to Lynton VOTR to climb a few weeks back. Stopped in North Molton, to take a look at the map on the phone and surprise no signal.  Had to use my paper AA map.


No compass needed .btw ;)
That is a phenomenon common to all apps.  You either have to save a map for off-line use or you will need a data signal.  Some have a generic map of the UK downloaded but that is not a lot of use for close work.
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: pauldawes on 21:59:19, 17/09/20
That is a phenomenon common to all apps.  You either have to save a map for off-line use or you will need a data signal.  Some have a generic map of the UK downloaded but that is not a lot of use for close work.


Maybe I have misunderstood what Buzy wrote but I thought he had stored a 25k map for off-line use...to quote him: “I can no longer zoom out on the 25k map stored on my phone....”


I was puzzled because I thought I could still zoom out on off line 25k maps stored on my phone using OS app even when getting no phone signal...but thought maybe app was working differently on Android and Apple phones. (Mine’s an Apple.)


(Mind you...a fair time since I used OS app in an area where I can’t get a signal. Think I’ll be in one tomorrow...so I ‘ll give it a try and see what happens.)
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: BuzyG on 22:37:51, 17/09/20
That is a phenomenon common to all apps.  You either have to save a map for off-line use or you will need a data signal.  Some have a generic map of the UK downloaded but that is not a lot of use for close work.


Yes I have the whole SW of England loaded at 25K


I can view it Zoomed in but I can no longer zoom out like I once could. The App trys to switch to the 50k map that I don't have loaded and if there is no signal then all I get is a blank screen.
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: ninthace on 23:16:52, 17/09/20
With you now. I only have off line maps stored for walks I am intending to do. I have not found a need for maps of large areas on my phone as yet.
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: Percy on 08:00:23, 18/09/20
(I gave up trying to use a phone for navigating a long time ago!)
I’m not surprised. Phones weren’t up to navigation a long time ago. They are now.
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: WhitstableDave on 08:15:23, 18/09/20
I’m not surprised. Phones weren’t up to navigation a long time ago. They are now.

I don't know what you guessed I meant when I said: "a long time ago", but I knew that I was referring to 3 years ago.

I always carry my phone with the OS maps app installed and I sometimes carry a Satmap Active 20 handheld GPS. I find the former very useful for taking photos and making phone calls, and the latter far superior for navigation.
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: Percy on 08:17:46, 18/09/20
I don't know what you guessed I meant when I said: "a long time ago", but I knew that I was referring to 3 years ago.

I always carry my phone with the OS maps app installed and I sometimes carry a Satmap Active 20 handheld GPS. I find the former very useful for taking photos and making phone calls, and the latter far superior for navigation.
What’s far superior about the dedicated GPS? I have both btw.
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: WhitstableDave on 08:26:21, 18/09/20
What’s far superior about the dedicated GPS? I have both btw.
Sorry, just about to set off on a walking holiday in Devon. I'll let you know when I get back...

A quick thought though. I spent more than £500 on a dedicated GPS and I think it money very well spent. If you spent good money on a GPS and find it no better than your phone, then perhaps you wasted a lot of money. Who's the lucky one?
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: Percy on 08:30:49, 18/09/20
Sorry, just about to set off on a walking holiday in Devon. I'll let you know when I get back...

A quick thought though. I spent more than £500 on a dedicated GPS and I think it money very well spent. If you spent good money on a GPS and find it no better than your phone, then perhaps you wasted a lot of money. Who's the lucky one?
I bought the GPS over 5 years ago when phones weren’t up to the job.


Who’s the one throwing their toys out if their pram because some had the temerity to mildly contradict them?
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: ninthace on 14:56:42, 18/09/20
Sorry, just about to set off on a walking holiday in Devon. I'll let you know when I get back...

A quick thought though. I spent more than £500 on a dedicated GPS and I think it money very well spent. If you spent good money on a GPS and find it no better than your phone, then perhaps you wasted a lot of money. Who's the lucky one?

I bought the GPS over 5 years ago when phones weren’t up to the job.


Who’s the one throwing their toys out if their pram because some had the temerity to mildly contradict them?


Perhaps I can help.  I did a walk this very morning that highlights a few of the issues being debated.


The planned route was one that can only really be accurately followed using gps.
This is the route as shown on the OS map.
(https://i.ibb.co/1QJKF9K/2020-09-18-3.png) (https://ibb.co/F3qJRBJ)
The route followed a series of paths and tracks, the majority of which are not on the OS map.
Here is the aerial image from the OS website that I used to construct the route.

(https://i.ibb.co/0CxCf7M/2020-09-18-7.png) (https://ibb.co/T4s4Hf8)
Clearly there is a wealth of detail available in this image that is not in the OS map so a paper map and compass would be of little value in trying to follow it.  In an instance like this a gps is the preferred tool for following the intended route.


Turning to the phone/dedicated gps debate.  Once upon a time I was firmly in the dedicated device camp but now, in terms of performance there is little to choose between.  In fact the purple trace in the OS map image above is actually two traces superimposed.  The red trace is from my phone and the blue trace is from my Garmin Etrex.


The image below is an enlargement showing both traces, you can just make them out.  I suggest there is nothing to choose between them

(https://i.ibb.co/Sc2vnSw/2020-09-18-5.png) (https://ibb.co/pQgXzqj)
And this is an aerial image of the same bit, including the backtrack where my gps alarmed because I had missed my turning which I think makes my point of using a gps to find the right path in this kind of well walked but poorly mapped terrain.

(https://i.ibb.co/M1J0XnB/2020-09-18-9.png) (https://ibb.co/09zbwqs)
And just to close - this is what it actually looks like in that area

(https://i.ibb.co/6RG79tH/20200918-105153-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KjBp4s2)
Not exactly full of features to fix on when you compare it with the map!





Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: pauldawes on 15:14:20, 18/09/20

Yes I have the whole SW of England loaded at 25K


I can view it Zoomed in but I can no longer zoom out like I once could. The App trys to switch to the 50k map that I don't have loaded and if there is no signal then all I get is a blank screen.


You won’t be surprised to hear that when I tested it (the OS app) on my phone today when I got to an area with no reception...it operated exactly like yours...my notion that it still zoomed out okay was wrong.
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: Ridge on 15:34:55, 18/09/20
I'm going to take issue with the very first post in this thread
I normally walk in kent and thus far have managed never to let lost. There's been a few times I wasn't entirely sure where I was....but never totally adrift.

Today i managed it.  :)

Only by a mile or so. I was walking down near westerham, everything was fine until I got into the woods, and then what was on the map bore zero relation to what was on the ground. The PROW on the map just vanished....and there were loads of paths that weren't on the map. came out by Chartwell and then I knew where I was.
I put it to you sir that, when it comes to getting lost, you are a rank amateur. You went in to the woods knowing where you were and when you emerged you knew where you were. 1 mile out does not constitute lost that is just going for a walk in an area you don't know.
Until you have been at least 3 hours late getting home for your tea or emerged from the woods of Kent to find you are looking at the Taj Mahal then you have not been properly lost.
Please try harder in future.
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: Agentorange on 17:34:57, 18/09/20
I'm going to take issue with the very first post in this threadI put it to you sir that, when it comes to getting lost, you are a rank amateur. You went in to the woods knowing where you were and when you emerged you knew where you were. 1 mile out does not constitute lost that is just going for a walk in an area you don't know.
Until you have been at least 3 hours late getting home for your tea or emerged from the woods of Kent to find you are looking at the Taj Mahal then you have not been properly lost.
Please try harder in future.

Ok , dad  ;D

It's a work in progress you know, the more walking I do the more lost I imagine I'll become
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: pauldawes on 18:17:41, 18/09/20
Ok , dad  ;D

It's a work in progress you know, the more walking I do the more lost I imagine I'll become


Daniel Boone: “I have never been lost, but admit to being confused for several weeks”
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: BuzyG on 22:28:29, 19/09/20

You won’t be surprised to hear that when I tested it (the OS app) on my phone today when I got to an area with no reception...it operated exactly like yours...my notion that it still zoomed out okay was wrong.


Good to read it is not just something with me or my phone. Thx for the reply. O0
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: BuzyG on 23:06:51, 19/09/20

Perhaps I can help.  I did a walk this very morning that highlights a few of the issues being debated.


The planned route was one that can only really be accurately followed using gps.
This is the route as shown on the OS map.
(https://i.ibb.co/1QJKF9K/2020-09-18-3.png) (https://ibb.co/F3qJRBJ)
The route followed a series of paths and tracks, the majority of which are not on the OS map.
Here is the aerial image from the OS website that I used to construct the route.

(https://i.ibb.co/0CxCf7M/2020-09-18-7.png) (https://ibb.co/T4s4Hf8)
Clearly there is a wealth of detail available in this image that is not in the OS map so a paper map and compass would be of little value in trying to follow it.  In an instance like this a gps is the preferred tool for following the intended route.


Turning to the phone/dedicated gps debate.  Once upon a time I was firmly in the dedicated device camp but now, in terms of performance there is little to choose between.  In fact the purple trace in the OS map image above is actually two traces superimposed.  The red trace is from my phone and the blue trace is from my Garmin Etrex.


The image below is an enlargement showing both traces, you can just make them out.  I suggest there is nothing to choose between them

(https://i.ibb.co/Sc2vnSw/2020-09-18-5.png) (https://ibb.co/pQgXzqj)
And this is an aerial image of the same bit, including the backtrack where my gps alarmed because I had missed my turning which I think makes my point of using a gps to find the right path in this kind of well walked but poorly mapped terrain.

(https://i.ibb.co/M1J0XnB/2020-09-18-9.png) (https://ibb.co/09zbwqs)
And just to close - this is what it actually looks like in that area

(https://i.ibb.co/6RG79tH/20200918-105153-1.jpg) (https://ibb.co/KjBp4s2)
Not exactly full of features to fix on when you compare it with the map!


Would it matter though if you took a few wrong turns.  What matters is you both enjoy the walk and get safely from the start to the finish.  Clearly you also enjoy the panning and the tech.  I too enjoy planning some of my walks in detail and in new areas it very much adds to the day, as it reduces your workload and means you can enjoy things more, if you don't have to spend too much time navigating.


Before I ever had tried GPS. I recall a call from the Ramblers walks sec not long after I had joined the Moorland group.  The walk leader for the next days walk was ill could I take the group.  Of course I excepted and the route was e-mailed through to me.  It was on an area of the moor I had little knowledge of.  So after a quick panic attack I studied the OS map for an hour or so and built up a mental picture of what I might expect to see on the ground at key points.


Then the next morning I got up early and visited all those I could get close to by car.  Then met the group at 10am.  The walk went really well. A little cloud on the tops but nothing too thick.  The only small error on my part was suggesting we could walk on past 1pm to the lunch stop.  Two of our ladies soon put me right there and we stopped just prior to 1pm, a tor earlier than I had in my thoughts.


Back at the car park the walks secretary came over and thanked me with an interesting admission.  She didn't know who I was. She thought she had called another member called John, who lived in that area of the moor.


That was only the second time I had walked with the group. Would I have learned more that day had I plotted the route on GPS and followed it. We will never know. ;)
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: ninthace on 00:42:38, 20/09/20
Would a few wrong terms matter? Sometimes, even on Dartmoor. In this case, I had local knowledge. There are also quite a few fences in the area which are also not on the map and can only be crossed at specific points where ladder stiles have been built. If you miss one, you can end up with an unplanned detour.
But you miss my point. Combining information not available on the map with gps navigation gives you even more opportunities.  I have never found Dartmoor much of a navigational challenge except in bad weather as you can soon learn the major features and orientate by them but even there, there are paths not on the map which you can incorporate into a route, e.g. none of the paths from High Willhays to Dinger Tor are on the map but they are visible in the aerial view  The Lake District is a better example, there are lots of footpaths that have grown up that the OS knows nothing about.  The Howgills is another area where studying the aerial pictures will show shepherds’ tracks which can be exploited to make the going easier.  It is one thing to come across an unrecorded  path and hope it leads in the right direction and another to know it does.
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: Ridge on 08:32:13, 20/09/20
Ok , dad  ;D

It's a work in progress you know, the more walking I do the more lost I imagine I'll become
;D  Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: fernman on 10:18:15, 20/09/20
none of the paths from High Willhays to Dinger Tor are on the map but they are visible in the aerial view  The Lake District is a better example, there are lots of footpaths that have grown up that the OS knows nothing about.  The Howgills is another area where studying the aerial pictures will show shepherds’ tracks which can be exploited to make the going easier.  It is one thing to come across an unrecorded  path and hope it leads in the right direction and another to know it does.

Should we perhaps expect the OS to show more "other paths" on their maps, the ones that are sometimes drawn as faint black dashed lines?
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: gunwharfman on 10:49:11, 20/09/20
Because I run daily around Portsdown Hill near Portsmouth and know the area in detail, I know where a number of footpaths are which are not on an OS map. This I assume must be the same all over the country? For example, I pass through a kissing gate which normally would appear to go nowhere in particular, but because I run the route day after day any stranger could now go through the gate and see the footpath clearly laid out. The other end has a kissing gate as well but most people would not expect to find it because they would be fooled by a gap in the hedge caused by drivers at the layby on the road above who stop and use part of the area (about 10-20yds away from the footpath) as a comfort break.  I know because they have often been surprised when I come pounding up behind them. The kissing gate is about 500yds further on.
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: BuzyG on 11:15:45, 20/09/20
Would a few wrong terms matter? Sometimes, even on Dartmoor. In this case, I had local knowledge. There are also quite a few fences in the area which are also not on the map and can only be crossed at specific points where ladder stiles have been built. If you miss one, you can end up with an unplanned detour.
But you miss my point. Combining information not available on the map with gps navigation gives you even more opportunities.  I have never found Dartmoor much of a navigational challenge except in bad weather as you can soon learn the major features and orientate by them but even there, there are paths not on the map which you can incorporate into a route, e.g. none of the paths from High Willhays to Dinger Tor are on the map but they are visible in the aerial view  The Lake District is a better example, there are lots of footpaths that have grown up that the OS knows nothing about.  The Howgills is another area where studying the aerial pictures will show shepherds’ tracks which can be exploited to make the going easier.  It is one thing to come across an unrecorded  path and hope it leads in the right direction and another to know it does.


Are you lost just because you are not on the nearest foot path?  What is wrong with simply wandering off into an area a you are unfamiliar with and enjoying the experience of exploring it. That is not being lost that is having fun. O0   Knowing exactly what is there has it's benefits. If you have others relying on you is a prime example. But it's just more fun to wing it most of the time. I continue to carry my phone. The GPS feature and maps loaded on it are fantastic. But I really don't need them 99% of the time and have come to realise that they take away part of the fun of walking for me.
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: ninthace on 12:55:28, 20/09/20

Are you lost just because you are not on the nearest foot path?  What is wrong with simply wandering off into an area a you are unfamiliar with and enjoying the experience of exploring it. That is not being lost that is having fun. O0   Knowing exactly what is there has it's benefits. If you have others relying on you is a prime example. But it's just more fun to wing it most of the time. I continue to carry my phone. The GPS feature and maps loaded on it are fantastic. But I really don't need them 99% of the time and have come to realise that they take away part of the fun of walking for me.
Fine on Dartmoor, where there are few obstacles that cannot be got round, rather less so in other areas with hedges and fences where straying is a trespass (mind you I sneaked in a planned trespass today to get from the 2MW to the road back to my car).  Not sure my neighbours would agree with the joys of serendipity.  They got lost in Braunton Borrows and it took them over an hour and half to find their way out!
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: fernman on 15:01:57, 20/09/20
Not sure my neighbours would agree with the joys of serendipity.  They got lost in Braunton Borrows and it took them over an hour and half to find their way out!

Well some people are like that aren't they. Not wanting to brag but I have a very good sense of direction. Looking at your maps, I reckon I could walk south from the car park to the point without a map, having only a memory of it in my head, and then turn west towards the sea, never mind on which path, any one would do that would take me to where I wanted. Then I would turn north keeping parallel with the coastline until I'd had enough, and then turn eastwards and find the car park.
I've done similar things before in areas unknown to me, both in GB and abroad, and without any map or navigation aid. I recall only one occasion when I became really lost, that was on a field meeting in a large Essex wood. I was with an elderly gent who I used to give lifts to, and he was having panic attacks, wanting to find houses to go and knock at and stuff, but I used my intuition to press on and find the way back to where we had parked.
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: ninthace on 17:46:00, 20/09/20
Well some people are like that aren't they. Not wanting to brag but I have a very good sense of direction. Looking at your maps, I reckon I could walk south from the car park to the point without a map, having only a memory of it in my head, and then turn west towards the sea, never mind on which path, any one would do that would take me to where I wanted. Then I would turn north keeping parallel with the coastline until I'd had enough, and then turn eastwards and find the car park.
I've done similar things before in areas unknown to me, both in GB and abroad, and without any map or navigation aid. I recall only one occasion when I became really lost, that was on a field meeting in a large Essex wood. I was with an elderly gent who I used to give lifts to, and he was having panic attacks, wanting to find houses to go and knock at and stuff, but I used my intuition to press on and find the way back to where we had parked.
I can do that - not difficult, been there, done that!  I wanted to visit a specific location, the D-day memorial, I did not want to walk far on the beach, it is very wearing and at one pont I wanted to head inland and cross a stile into the MoD range without having the walk along the fence to find it.  There are some interesting ponds and dune features worth a visit too.  Just to give you a feel, somewhere in the picture below is the turning off the beach on the northward track.  You find it with a map, compass or sense of direction!  It is a dip between 2 dunes, much like all the other dips between the dunes.
(https://i.ibb.co/jH1SFYS/20200918-104356.jpg) (https://ibb.co/t3W9569)
If you look at my track on the map, I wasn't ever on the beach but you can see I was on the aerial picture. The point I turned to pick up the path I wanted is the kink, bottom left next to the s of Burrows.
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: WhitstableDave on 17:41:19, 29/09/20
What’s far superior about the dedicated GPS? I have both btw.

Sorry, just about to set off on a walking holiday in Devon. I'll let you know when I get back...
...

Our week of walking on Dartmoor reminded me of two advantages that my dedicated GPS (a Satmap Active 20) has over my phone (a Samsung Galaxy 7)...

The first advantage is its ruggedness. I dropped the Satmap while climbing onto the summit of a tor; it fell at least 2m onto the rocks below. It didn't bat an eyelid and there's not a scratch on it. I realise of course that some people never drop their handheld device. I thought I was one of those who don't, but I did.

The second advantage is that it has both a touchscreen and physical buttons. I've found that touchscreens (whether on watches, phones or GPS devices) can behave badly in the rain. I find that being able to switch the touchscreen off on the Satmap and use the buttons instead means that it works perfectly however wet the screen gets.

(http://www.cruisingmates.co.uk/coppermine/albums/userpics/10054/Satmap_Active_20_buttons.jpg)

It seems to me that while a phone can run very similar software to a dedicated GPS device, it's probably the hardware that makes the latter superior in use. I could have mentioned the Active 20's excellent battery life too, but phones vary tremendously in that respect so I won't...  ;)
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: ninthace on 18:31:45, 29/09/20
Dave - try a lanyard.  My gps is always attached to me, either looped through a belt loop or a loop on my pack.  If I drop it, it does not even reach the ground!
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: gunwharfman on 18:39:14, 29/09/20
That's what annoys me about modern phones, they used to have a little hole in the bottom corner to attach a lanyard to but not now. I bought a dirt-cheap elasticated 'spider web' from Amazon that wraps and grips itself around the phone which is attached to a lanyard. It does the job for me, if I drop the phone it now doesn't hit the floor.
Title: Re: got lost for the first time in Kent
Post by: WhitstableDave on 22:11:45, 29/09/20
Dave - try a lanyard.  My gps is always attached to me, either looped through a belt loop or a loop on my pack.  If I drop it, it does not even reach the ground!

Thanks, a lanyard is worth investigating, or perhaps a wrist strap. I was holding the GPS when I tried to jump to a narrow ledge. I let go of it in an attempt to get a handhold but I failed - and I followed it anyway. It wasn't a great distance, but I had enough time to think, "I'm going to break my leg." Luckily I didn't!