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Main Boards => General Walking Discussion => Topic started by: gunwharfman on 14:06:18, 17/11/20

Title: Winter and darkness
Post by: gunwharfman on 14:06:18, 17/11/20
For those who hike and camp in the winter months, how do you cope with the long hours of darkness?

Any tips to offer, any problems a novice should be aware of and what's the longest period of nights you have camped in one go?
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: Birdman on 12:54:23, 18/11/20
Personally I would be fine with the long nights in itself. Just bring something to read.

However, the thing that really deters me is the combination of limited amount of available hiking hours during daylight and the prospect of having to stay in my tent because of bad weather. So you could be holed up in a dark tent for a long time.

For me a multi-day camping trip would mean going to Scotland, because that is the only place where I can wild camp. But living on the south coast, that is quite a commitment. I cannot easily go back home if things get very miserable. There isn't much point in hillwalking if you can hardly see your own feet, and that is a common condition in the hills. In the summer I just put up with it and sit it out if necessary, but with short daylight that can get quite depressing.
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: NeilC on 21:26:29, 18/11/20
For those who hike and camp in the winter months, how do you cope with the long hours of darkness?

Any tips to offer, any problems a novice should be aware of and what's the longest period of nights you have camped in one go?


It gets pretty flipping boring being holed up in a tiny tent for like 13 hours straight and then doing it again the next night. so I try to go with a mate, so we can either sit out (wrapped in sleeping bags) with a bottle of rum or bundle into one our tents and do the same, if raining.


I've only done it for a couple of nights on the trot.


For me a multi-day camping trip would mean going to Scotland, because that is the only place where I can wild camp. B

Out of interest: why is Scotland the only place you can wildcamp? Why not the other national parks? Or is this down to a definition of "wild"?
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: ninthace on 21:46:08, 18/11/20
Or Europe?  I've done some good trips southern Spain in the hinterland behind the Costas - still quite warm even in winter and the days are longer.  There is even a Cicerone guide for the area now IIRC.  How about the Balearics or the GRs in Corsica?
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: BuzyG on 23:20:43, 18/11/20

For me a multi-day camping trip would mean going to Scotland, because that is the only place where I can wild camp.


Another here who is intrigued as to why Scotland is the only place you can wild camp?
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: Birdman on 09:17:51, 19/11/20

Out of interest: why is Scotland the only place you can wildcamp? Why not the other national parks? Or is this down to a definition of "wild"?



Another here who is intrigued as to why Scotland is the only place you can wild camp?


Isn't Scotland the only place in the UK where this is allowed? Elsewhere you can stealth-camp of course, but then you want to pitch late when everybody has gone home and you want to breakup early before other people get up. Most of the UK is cultivated area and the land is owned by somebody. When you spend long nights in your tent with a torch, the lit-up tent really stands out in the landscape. I'm not comfortable with that when camping illegally in what are essentially populated areas.
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: BuzyG on 09:28:49, 19/11/20


Isn't Scotland the only place in the UK where this is allowed? Elsewhere you can stealth-camp of course, but then you want to pitch late when everybody has gone home and you want to breakup early before other people get up. Most of the UK is cultivated area and the land is owned by somebody. When you spend long nights in your tent with a torch, the lit-up tent really stands out in the landscape. I'm not comfortable with that when camping illegally in what are essentially populated areas.


You can wild camp on much of Dartmoor and it's just about big enough for multi day treks.  Not sure about other national parks.


https://www.twoblondeswalking.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Dartmoor-Wild-Camping-Small-1.pdf







Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: Birdman on 09:59:59, 19/11/20

You can wild camp on much of Dartmoor and it's just about big enough for multi day treks.  Not sure about other national parks.


https://www.twoblondeswalking.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Dartmoor-Wild-Camping-Small-1.pdf (https://www.twoblondeswalking.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Dartmoor-Wild-Camping-Small-1.pdf)


Yes, I know. Dartmoor is the exception in England. It is an option. It's just big enough. But while it has a few very scenic areas, I find much of it a bit too featureless to keep me interested for multiday treks. So if I feel the urge, I'm more likely to jump on a night bus to Glasgow. Perhaps I'm just spoiled :)
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: BuzyG on 10:10:22, 19/11/20

Yes, I know. Dartmoor is the exception in England. It is an option. It's just big enough. But while it has a few very scenic areas, I find much of it a bit too featureless to keep me interested for multiday treks. So if I feel the urge, I'm more likely to jump on a night bus to Glasgow. Perhaps I'm just spoiled :)


Problem with scenic areas is people exploit them. Peace and quite or scenery?  Alas  you can't have your cake and eat it.  Not in England any way.  :(
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: Birdman on 10:30:03, 19/11/20

Problem with scenic areas is people exploit them.  Alas  you can't have your cake and eat it.  Not in England any way.  :(


Yes I know. But in Scotland you can. Cape Wrath Trail comes to mind, where you are virtually required to wild camp or you won't be able to reach certain areas. And you don't see a soul most of the time.


Of course England has many beautiful scenic areas that offer great walking. For example, many of the coast paths are world class. It's just less suitable for wild camping, which was my point. I hiked/ stealth camped on the South Downs Way this summer, which was great. But I do feel a bit on edge when I hear people pass near my tent (even when they don't see it) and when I know my tent can be seen from nearby farms etc.
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: gunwharfman on 12:01:05, 19/11/20
I think the distinction between wild camping and stealth camping is very helpful, I hadn't really thought about it much but it makes sense. I can wild camp in Scotland and Dartmoor but elsewhere in the UK I stealth camp.
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: Birdman on 12:13:12, 19/11/20
I think the distinction between wild camping and stealth camping is very helpful, I hadn't really thought about it much but it makes sense. I can wild camp in Scotland and Dartmoor but elsewhere in the UK I stealth camp.


Stealth camping is usually a subset of wild camping. I should have written you cannot legally wild camp in most of England, so you would have to stealth camp if you feel comfortable with it.

Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: BuzyG on 19:22:12, 19/11/20
Out of interest, has any one here ever asked the land owner and been given permission to wild camp?
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: ninthace on 19:29:18, 19/11/20
Out of interest, has any one here ever asked the land owner and been given permission to wild camp?
Frequently but it was over 50 years ago.  We spent most weekends in the summer camping in some farmer's field. 
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: April on 19:30:46, 19/11/20
Out of interest, has any one here ever asked the land owner and been given permission to wild camp?


No, I've never asked.


Lake District, Northumberland, Cumbria, never had any problems wild camping. We camp high up most of the time mind.





Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: ninthace on 19:38:13, 19/11/20
Doesn't the DoE expedition not involve wild camping?  The Scouts also required the planning and execution of a hike with an overnight camp at one time, no idea if it still does.  That would require land owner consent.
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: fernman on 20:07:51, 19/11/20
Out of interest, has any one here ever asked the land owner and been given permission to wild camp?

Responding to thread drift, yes, but it was many, many years ago when I was cycling with camping gear from London Borough of Hillingdon to Penmaenmawr. I got as far as Droitwich area on my first day, about 110 miles. Spotting a nice pasture near the road I went and knocked at the farmhouse beyond, and asked if I could camp in the corner of their field for the night. Permission was readily granted.

Even worse thread hijack: A sequel to the story is that I didn't have a watch and I got up when it was light in the morning. While I was getting ready a young woman passed, getting the cows in she said. On asking the time, I was told it was about 5:30.
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: April on 20:20:54, 19/11/20
For those who hike and camp in the winter months, how do you cope with the long hours of darkness?


I don't do solo winter camps, except with beefy, so it is entertainment all the way with him lol. Solo, I would take book, film, tv programme, music saved on tablet maybe, along with power bank to recharge?



Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: fernman on 20:25:43, 19/11/20
When you spend long nights in your tent with a torch, the lit-up tent really stands out in the landscape.

It's something I'm extremely conscious of, but it has very rarely bothered me during my wild camping in north Wales, where I usually walk in the less-visited parts that are also very sparsely populated. There have been a couple of exceptions (a notable one was pitching surrounded by hedges on the lawn of a bungalow for sale in the edge of a village) but when there are any dwellings scattered about, I find places where I'm out of sight of any windows no matter how far away they might be.

I like to think that no-one is going to want to leave his telly and the warmth and comfort of his home, and stumble some way across rough and boggy land in the cold and wet to go and investigate a dim green light coming from a tent in the far distance.
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: forgotmyoldpassword on 21:50:19, 19/11/20
It's something I'm extremely conscious of, but it has very rarely bothered me during my wild camping in north Wales, where I usually walk in the less-visited parts that are also very sparsely populated. There have been a couple of exceptions (a notable one was pitching surrounded by hedges on the lawn of a bungalow for sale in the edge of a village) but when there are any dwellings scattered about, I find places where I'm out of sight of any windows no matter how far away they might be.

I like to think that no-one is going to want to leave his telly and the warmth and comfort of his home, and stumble some way across rough and boggy land in the cold and wet to go and investigate a dim green light coming from a tent in the far distance.


Yeah this is generally my train of thought.  Camp high and out of the way - make it a chore for them to get out of bed and get to you.  THAT SAID - I've had a few farmers approach very early in the morning, a couple on quads and another one walking (he must have left his farm house at something like 4am).  Fortunately I pack up and leave early, but I'm always very wary of this when stealth camping, and will try to camp so I'll put the farm downwind of the camp site - dogs have a super sense of smell and even if you're quite a distance away this can cause issues.  I've heard a farmer on a quad late at night after his dogs started going crazy and it's quite disconcerting to be in a tent, not knowing what the disposition of that person might be.  Fortunately that was a one time event and I was tucked up in a dark tent in a terrain feature you'd have to physically stumble upon to see, but I've since camped high and well out of the way.
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: NeilC on 19:08:45, 20/11/20
I’ve camped all over the Lakes, Wales etc. nobody seems to care. I don’t make a huge effort to be stealthy. I just don’t camp near habitation.


All they’re gonna do is ask you to move, which I would with an apology.
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: Stube on 15:52:34, 22/11/20
50/60 years ago, as a teenager, I wild camped regularly - there was no option since recognised "campsites" only accepted caravans. I asked the farmer for permission which was usually granted, but occasionally refused. In those days I lived on the edge of the Peak District.

These days I wild camp occasionally - when circumstances force me to - without asking the owners permission since in general it's impossible to determine who he is.Living as I as now do in the South of England on the coast wild camping is difficult - it's too crowded.



Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: richardh1905 on 17:52:16, 22/11/20
In non lockdown times, one word - pub.


Having said that, I'm quite happy to get into my sleeping bag early and read until I feel like dozing off. I quite like being alone with my thoughts from time to time.
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: BuzyG on 18:32:39, 22/11/20
I would be interested to know whether folk walk on after dark much? Or do you always stop and set camp while there is sun light available?
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: Birdman on 18:42:01, 22/11/20
I would be interested to know whether folk walk on after dark much? Or do you always stop and set camp while there is sun light available?


I always try to set camp well before sunset. However, many hikers on the PCT hike long distances in the dark to avoid the desert heat. But I always found that a bit of a waste because you miss out on the scenery (though you may see some nocturnal animals - it can also be beautiful with a bright moon). In the dark, even with a decent headlight, I also find it quite difficult to find a decent camp spot because you cannot look very far and the ground is less easy to judge.
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: forgotmyoldpassword on 14:11:59, 24/11/20
I would be interested to know whether folk walk on after dark much? Or do you always stop and set camp while there is sun light available?


If I'm hoping to get to a loch or some water source I'll usually keep going well into the dusk and pitch where I intended to pitch.  However I'll often look at the time a few hours before, realise I'll be arriving in the dark and just hoof it a little faster instead.


As for intentional walking in the dark, I prefer to start off in the dark in the early hours than finish in them.  Not sure if it's because I feel I'm happier with being at my most 'fresh' (usually after an early morning coffee) when I've got the greatest chance of a slip or fall due to darkness, or whether I just don't feel like my body ever relaxes and wants to fall asleep easily when I've made camp late at night.


It's worth making a habit of doing some nighttime walking when you hike though, even if it's just to keep your navigation fresh and allow you to be more confident if you need to stay out unexpectedly.
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: gunwharfman on 14:49:53, 24/11/20
I too prefer to set off in the dark or just after daylight when I can. I've never been able to lie in so when I wake I just get up.

I usually have some knowledge about when it's going to get dark so I use the hour beforehand to select my spot.

I've slept a few nights in my garden recently, it's hard enough to deal with 6-8hrs of darkness so I just haven't ventured out into the real world to do it.

I keep telling myself that it will soon be December 21st and I know that my mood and motivation will change rapidly from then onwards, even better when its January 2nd!!!
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: windyrigg on 15:23:38, 24/11/20
When working away from home I carried on with my evening hill walk after work as nights drew in through the autumn. Eventually I was setting off in the dark with a head torch. To be honest I stuck to routes I was familiar with, surprising how much natural light there is from the moon and stars, with frost or snow cover it was magical, turning ever trip into an adventure. Recommended  O0 
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 18:40:04, 24/11/20
Having done both, I also prefer to start in the dark than finish in the dark. I would also prefer walking uphill than downhill in darkness.
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: BuzyG on 23:38:32, 24/11/20
Interesting, but not surprising that those who sleep out on the hills prefer to start in the dark and get the camp set up before dark.  Day walking I am seldom on the hills before daylight.  But often still out long after dark.  Or on occasion I walk through to dawn.

On crisp winter nights there is little I prefer more than looking up at the starts and the planets, from a sheltered dark sky spot out on the moors. One of these days I must get back to sleeping out in the hills.   O0
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: gunwharfman on 09:21:44, 25/11/20
An aside but last year when I went to La Palma and was at the highest point on the island I was truly amazed at the quality of the sky above. I just lay on my back in my bivvy and looked up, it was one those 'out of this world' moments.
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: BuzyG on 10:00:36, 25/11/20
Not out in the wild as such.  But I remember like it was right now, lying on top of my aft gun electronics unit, on the back end of HMS Illustrious in the 1980s, just staring up at the Aurora Borealis for nights on end during exercise North Star.  I was fascinated by the night sky before then, but since I just love it. From our loft there is much light pollution.  But from the middle of Bodmin moor there is virtually none. :)
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: richardh1905 on 12:23:21, 25/11/20
I like to time it so that I have the tent up and am settling in as the sun is going down.
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: thomasdevon on 09:10:48, 05/12/20
I've done night hikes on Dartmoor in wintertime, its OK on the north moor where there's the well known network of Army roads and old artillery tracks to follow. Solo and in groups. I would avoid going solo off-trail at night anywhere though, as well as fording.


Its a great training experience - everyone should try it. You see, I'm wondering how many hikers without a night hiking experience have made bad decisions on unsuitable routes and hurried descents just to get off the hill before night - once you've done it once, its not the risk you maybe thought.
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 09:44:40, 05/12/20
I imagine navigation in darkness is much easier with gps devices and apps. I remember night hikes as a scout in the 1970s. On one occasion we were hiking in pitch darkness in the south of the Isle of Wight. Somehow we found ourselves in a field completely surrounded by cows and with electric fences all around us. Perception of depth and distances was definitely different. In the hills it can be more dangerous, even with head torches. My companion and I were descending in the dark after a whole day in the Glyders. We were hoping to get down to the valley in time for a pint before the pub at Nant Peris called last orders. On the descent he almost walked off a drop of about 10 feet that the path skirted around. We slowed down after that, but still managed to get a couple of pints in the Vaynol Arms.
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: gunwharfman on 09:54:42, 05/12/20
Only two weeks to go until the winter solstice, I love this day!
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: harland on 11:10:44, 05/12/20
I remember night hikes as a scout in the 1970s.
I remember them in the 60s, bet that they are not allowed to do them nowadays without supervision - if at all!
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 12:09:26, 05/12/20
I remember them in the 60s, bet that they are not allowed to do them nowadays without supervision - if at all!
I suspect there are a lot more restrictions about what kids are allowed to do. My brother and I used to disappear into woods and alongside streams and ponds for hours on end. The only admonition we had was “don’t talk to strangers”. In scouts we had a lot of autonomy while under canvas or bivouac or when hiking. We were expected to be responsible.
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: harland on 12:30:36, 05/12/20
At least we had our sheath knife for company - don't remember ever stabbing anyone!
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: windyrigg on 16:22:02, 05/12/20
Yes, I have to agree that when I was a child, we were much better armed !
Many of us had a pocket knife, most common would be ex WW2 Army. There would be a good distribution of catapults (with which a couple of us were lethal), home made bows and arrows, spears etc. Tomahawks would have been very cool but I don't recall any hand axes being  pressed into service.
Distribution of air rifles (usually a BSA .177) would have averaged about 1 per street. Lack of slugs was always a problem.
Surprisingly nothing ever seemed to go wrong! We were told to look after the younger ones and be home for tea then set loose in the countryside.
Title: Re: Winter and darkness
Post by: Peak on 17:10:24, 05/12/20
Yes, I have to agree that when I was a child, we were much better armed !
Many of us had a pocket knife, most common would be ex WW2 Army. There would be a good distribution of catapults (with which a couple of us were lethal), home made bows and arrows, spears etc. Tomahawks would have been very cool but I don't recall any hand axes being  pressed into service.
Distribution of air rifles (usually a BSA .177) would have averaged about 1 per street. Lack of slugs was always a problem.
Surprisingly nothing ever seemed to go wrong! We were told to look after the younger ones and be home for tea then set loose in the countryside.
That just about sums up my childhood, I can relate to it all, good times.