Walking Forum
Main Boards => Gear => Topic started by: Kev06 on 15:10:38, 21/02/21
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Some recent posts by Gunwarfman have struck a cord and got me wondering (yet again) what, if anything, one can do to improve comfort when walking in sustained rain...
I've no issue when the weather is properly cold, or for brief or light showers at any time. But for several months of the UK year I 'still' have no answer to walking enjoyably all day in sustained rain. My soft-shell is frequently far too warm and the hard-shell too sauna-like (a buffalo tunic I had before was a bit of both, rather than neither).
It has been some years since I last looked at the options though. I've wasted money on this quest before so am cautious, but are any of the latest air-permeable/waterproof fabrics 'actually' the last word in warm-weather comfort yet as the marketing might imply? Or, as I don't really like fragile or noisy shells anyway, might I be better just looking at base & midlayers purpose-designed to get wet, or some other approach entirely?
Thoughts would appreciated!
Thanks,
Kev
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I have 2 jackets that I've worn successfully in prolonged rain, from different parts of the spectrum. I tend to walk hot, so that I think helps to keep me warm/dry as the heat generated stops the water fighting its way through. My 3 layer berghaus is my preferred jacket if I know it's going to be heavy rain, but I've been caught a few times when I've just had my Marmot Precip and that too has kept me warm and dry, although the jacket has always been clammy on the inside after heavy rain.
Most importantly is having effective layers underneath the jacket, if those are wrong then you're going to have issues.
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I went through a number of jackets before I found the one that's perfect for me... the Rohan Vertex jacket.
The waterproofing system is Rohan's own Barricade rather than Gore-Tex and it works extremely well. It's the most breathable jacket I've tried, and that was my main requirement. It's also beautifully made and has a soft finish that's quiet and pleasant to touch.
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Thanks both!
Thats a very good point on the base layer. I tend to wear just a poly t-shirt below any outer layers, which seems fair enough as it isn't too bad for retaining water or sweat normally. But when things are sustained there is not much chance to get rid of the damp, so perhaps a better one or even just a tighter fitting one would help, loose flappy bits are probably what feel the worst as they come in and out of contact with me. I know some people like merino but it makes me itch as a base-layer unfortunately.
Thanks also for the pointers to the jackets, I shall have a look at them. Finances aren't the best at the moment but I'm too poor to buy a series of unsuccessful cheaper ones if a good investment might be job done for the next several years.
Thanks again!
Kev
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A cycling cape or poncho is the most waterproof and breathable option - best worn over a light showerproof jacket. Cheap as well! The go to solution of yesteryear. O0
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The Poncho and the light showerproof jacket underneath is the solution that I've arrived at as well. My reasons for doing so is that rain doesn't tend to happen every day and of course, 'rain' can be anything from drizzle to heavy downpours, short or long in duration, and with or without various wind speeds to make it easy to cope with, or to feel overwhelmed by it.
So from a drizzle situation to a certain point in personal decision making, a single skin jacket like the Marmot Precip (I used to own one) is maybe a base starting point for when the rain is 'easy' to live with, to the need for greater protection when the rain becomes hard to bear, it's then that a completely waterproof poncho can really help.
In my particular case, I already own a Rab Vital jacket which is OK for a short while in drizzle so I'm now aiming to buy a lightweight waterproof running type jacket for the next stage of rain and then use my poncho as my final barrier against getting wet.
At this very moment, my wife's friend is adapting my Vaude poncho and is fitting a full zip to it, from chin to hem, I'm hoping that it works, if not I'll buy a different brand, either the Decathlon poncho or the Altus model. Both of these have full zips as part of their design.
It's only the lightweight waterproof jacket choice that continues to cause me problems. I've decided that I'm not going to buy another Marmot Precip so I'm down to an Alpkit Gravitas, a Rab Kinetic Plus (the older model) or a Rab Kinetic Alpine (the latest model) and I'm considering a couple of other brands as well. The particular problem that I can't seem to solve is they all come with hoods, how many more hoods do I need in my life???
It may seem odd to be planning on three items of clothing to deal with rain but my experience tells me that one waterproof jacket is not the overall answer to all of the types of rain that I've been subjected to. And interestingly, when added together my three items are about the same weight as my Paramo Alta 2, and (except for the poncho) when folded up and not in use they take up less space in my rucksack. And another consideration for me is that the items I'll use can be used for other situations as well, wind protection, a groundsheet, and so on.
My quest to find my perfect answer to rain goes on. :)
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@Kev - You can't beat Gore Tex Pro for breathability and waterproofness, in my opinion. I am parsimonious by nature when it comes to spending money on gear, but consider the almost £300 spent on my Mountain Equipment 'Tupilak' jacket money well spent. Its predecessor, the Mountain Equipment 'Lhotse', cost similar, and served me well for 5 years, including through 4 long Orkney winters, where I was without fail out once or sometimes twice a day with the dog, as well as on numerous outings on the mountain tops in foul weather.
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I guess you know this but all merino vests are not equal. I can't do itchy but am well pleased with Helly Hansen's (other makes are available); I suspect some 'merino' vests have a lower merino content than others and are padded out with cheaper stuff.
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I'm sure you're right, I have a cheap 'scratchy' merino and a 'soft and cosy' merino, they both work well enough but feel so different. In my case, both merinos made me itch (most uncomfortable) so I tended not to use them. Then I bought a couple of Brynge string vests and I wear the merinos over them and no longer feel any discomfort.
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I have a cheap 'soft and cosy' merino top - Lidl, for less than a tenner. Very good if you can get one.
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Thanks everyone, a lot to digest there!
The poncho is an interesting idea, I used to have one decades ago and there were certainly some advantages - especially that everything could be covered in one go when rain hit. TBH for routine walking in sustained rain, I'd prefer something a bit less flappy really. But maybe the layering principle could still be applied, with a lighter shell of some kind to supplement a showerproof but highly breathable jacket.
Richard, thanks for the thoughts on gore-tex pro. Looking at the specs and reviews it does seem very potential. When I last looked at such things gore-tex were being left behind by more breathable (if somewhat less waterproof) competition, but clearly they're back in the game. Their 'active' looks similarly high performing, but less robust. It seems like some caution is in order though. Just been looking around and have seen gore-tex 'pro' garments being sold that are actually 'pro-shell' on their tags, I'm sure proshell was around years ago, along with XCR.
Yeah I've tried different merino base-layers and some are certainly worse than others. I've got a Helly Henson that is mixed merino and man-made and is more bearable, though it gets progressively more itchy as I get warmer so not great in summer or under waterproofs. But whatever the material, I increasingly think a good baselayer will indeed be the answer for me, in combo with an air-permeable jacket of at least reasonable waterproofness. So yes, think you've all got me on the right track!
Thanks again,
Kev
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In my desire to buy a new jacket and comparing and contrasting different models I was looking at the Rab Kinetic Alpine. All very straightforward until I realised there is now a Rab Kinetic Alpine 2.0 so I obviously wondered whats the difference between the two? So I decided to phone Rab and got a wishy-washy "don't worry just an improvement to the cut." I was not confident that he knew anything, I felt that he just offered me a load of waffle so I rang off.
I then phoned another 'UK' company who said that the 2.0 version material is a bit more robust across the shoulders. I then asked if I bought from his company will the product be coming from the UK because I keep reading about added costs if I end up getting it from Europe. That floored him, he didn't seem to know and then told me that although I had phoned a UK number he had received my call in Germany.
I then phoned another 'UK' company who told me that the product would come from the UK and it would be free postage and confirmed that the 2.0 version is a "little more robust."
Just a phone call perhaps but so easy for a potential customer like me to feel doubt and to feel suspicious about what I'm being told. Waffle, hesitancy, and not knowing suggests to me that if I buy I will be buying from the third company.
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In certain types of wind, coming into your face, to the side, or from the back affects ponchos in different ways. In my case, I more or less solved this problem by sewing in a strip of dressmaker's weights all along the hem and if it was really blowing a gale I just took off my stretchy belt from my trousers and just secured it around the outside of the poncho. When the wind eased I just secured my belt back around my waist again.
I've only had to do this once, a totally miserable 'in my face' windy and rainy day (the rain was like small ball bearings onto my face) when I walked from Kirk Yetholm to Byrness on the Pennine Way, by far the worst walking day of my life!
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In my desire to buy a new jacket and comparing and contrasting different models I was looking at the Rab Kinetic Alpine. All very straightforward until I realised there is now a Rab Kinetic Alpine 2.0 so I obviously wondered whats the difference between the two? So I decided to phone Rab and got a wishy-washy "don't worry just an improvement to the cut." I was not confident that he knew anything, I felt that he just offered me a load of waffle so I rang off.
No experience of the jacket, but bought a pair of the Kinectic trousers about 10 months ago.
Not worn them that often so far...not done that many day long walks this year...so I can’t comment really on how they will stand up in long term...
But in terms of comfort and waterproofness, very impressed. Have been out in them in for hours in constant rain a few times and been kept very dry. If they prove durable, would be a strong rec from me.
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Richard, thanks for the thoughts on gore-tex pro. Looking at the specs and reviews it does seem very potential. When I last looked at such things gore-tex were being left behind by more breathable (if somewhat less waterproof) competition, but clearly they're back in the game. Their 'active' looks similarly high performing, but less robust. It seems like some caution is in order though. Just been looking around and have seen gore-tex 'pro' garments being sold that are actually 'pro-shell' on their tags, I'm sure proshell was around years ago, along with XCR....
Kev
I am a person who certainly runs hot when I'm climbing a hill, and I cannot recommend Gore Tex Pro highly enough. The hoods on the ME jackets are very good too, you can adjust them to get a good fit and seal.
I appreciate your caution though, they are not cheap!
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Hi all, I have had some varied waterproofs and my jackets include a paramo alta 2, mountain equipment Rupal hardshell and a Rab Kinetic Plus (original no the Alpine) I like them all but the paramo can get a build up of condensation when I'm wrapped up warm against the elements. Thats why I bought the Rupal as its more breathable and I just layer up differently. The Rab Kinetic Plus has been my goto jacket in the warmer months and I have been out in some pretty horrible conditions with it and its never let me down. It doesn't look or feel as if can be a really waterproof softshell but as I said it's never let me down.
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I've just caught up with your entry and like what you write about the Rab Kinetic Plus, I've just ordered an Alpine 2.0. I just hope I don't have to send it back. I think I've also muddled myself up as to which thread I should have written to?
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I am a person who certainly runs hot when I'm climbing a hill, and I cannot recommend Gore Tex Pro highly enough. The hoods on the ME jackets are very good too, you can adjust them to get a good fit and seal.
I appreciate your caution though, they are not cheap!
Thanks Richard, thats good to hear! I think I shall look around then, and see what may be found.
Probably I can't actually go wrong if gore-tex-pro is matched with a good design; it may not be all that I would dream for, but either way there doesn't seem a lot to surpass it for when good waterproofness is wanted, and I already have decent DWR wind-proofs and so on for lesser conditions. The shake-dry (and equivalents) look interesting but at this stage in their development probably too fragile for me to risk.
It isn't that I'm any kind of extreme or long distance walker, and I'm certainly not rich, so I don't need something that'd keep mountaineers alive. But exercise is proving to be invaluable in containing my diabetes and so walking has now become very regular, whatever the weather - hot and yet clammy discomfort starts to wear a bit thin, day after day. As (in a more real sense) does a lot of walking gear; 50-60miles a week doesn't seem much but amazingly it is enough to chew through boots and clothing at a frightening rate, so investing in durability is actually looking like a decent investment these days.
The baselayer still looks to be the other half of the equation though, so that is still very much on the agenda as well.
Cheers,Kev
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The baselayer still looks to be the other half of the equation though, so that is still very much on the agenda as well.
Cheers,Kev
50/60 miles week in/ week out is a lot I think. We used to do a “mileage table” here where regular contributors reputed mileage done...2 to 3 thousand miles a year would be “top” range. (I put asterisks round “top”, because for most of us, it’s enjoyment that’s key.)
On base layers I don’t think there’s as much difference between low priced and high priced base layers as applies to outer layers (I do spend chunky money on base layers but I do it knowing comfort gains will be marginal.)
If you just buy something made out of an appropriate material (polyester, merino wool, bamboo) you won’t go far wrong...a ten quid Regatta polyester base layer or a ten quid Merino from Aldi will give most of benefits of something far dearer.
Of course..all my opinion..but suspect a fair number of others have a similar view.
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50/60 miles week in/ week out is a lot I think. We used to do a “mileage table” here where regular contributors reputed mileage done...2 to 3 thousand miles a year would be “top” range. (I put asterisks round “top”, because for most of us, it’s enjoyment that’s key.)
...
I must point out that it's entirely possible to cover a few thousand miles in a year with enjoyment being the primary motivation. Mileage and enjoyment are not mutually exclusive.
I believe that pretty much all walking can be pleasurable - woods, hills, roads, fields, trails, urban, treadmill even - because enjoyment comes from a state of mind. But in addition to taking pleasure in ones surroundings, enjoyment can also come from meeting targets, and achievements such as walking further and/or faster in a day than ever before, or reaching previously unachieved summits. Strenuous days can be extremely enjoyable!
It's stating the obvious I know, but mileage is related to speed as well as to time spent walking. Two people might spend equal time enjoying the countryside, but if one averages double the speed of the other then they will clock up twice the distance. And, of course, the one who does twice the distance will probably see more of the enjoyable countryside! ;)
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Yes, I do enjoy quite a lot of it, and the increased fitness is quite satisfying too. Though I find pushing hard (which gets the most benefit) robs it of a little enjoyment factor, as do the rather monotonous local routes in these strange times. So if I'm also hot and strangely clammy, it starts to seem more of a slog than something pleasant; if I can sort that to some extent then I shall be quite happy.
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50/60 miles week in/ week out is a lot I think. We used to do a “mileage table” here where regular contributors reputed mileage done...2 to 3 thousand miles a year would be “top” range. (I put asterisks round “top”, because for most of us, it’s enjoyment that’s key.)
On base layers I don’t think there’s as much difference between low priced and high priced base layers as applies to outer layers (I do spend chunky money on base layers but I do it knowing comfort gains will be marginal.)
If you just buy something made out of an appropriate material (polyester, merino wool, bamboo) you won’t go far wrong...a ten quid Regatta polyester base layer or a ten quid Merino from Aldi will give most of benefits of something far dearer.
Of course..all my opinion..but suspect a fair number of others have a similar view.
Thanks for the thoughts, very useful indeed! I've got quite a collection of poly tee-shirts of different prices and, just as you say, I hadn't noticed a great deal of difference.
However, they're all loose fitting ones. Which is great when worn as an only layer, with breeze to waft through them, but I think when under other layers they might need to be snug against the skin to work fully. From what I can find, it appears that air gaps can allow the damp material to get cool, which is both unpleasant and also hinders it being evaporated away by body heat. Should be quite cheap to get a smaller/stretchier tee and test that, anyway. Though I'd need to overcome vanity issues of wandering around in clingy stuff if the rain stopped!
Yeah, I suppose the mileage does add up. I only go 15-20 miles per walk, which I'm sure is peanuts to many on here. But it feels quite enough on a very low carb diet, so I go for more walks rather than longer ones. It certainly takes its toll on boot soles and trousers anyway, and tops tend to wear at the shoulders and elbows so i don't think I could go for anything too flimsy unless it were also cheap. Perhaps a decent jacket and cheap baselayers might be a sensible way to go.
Cheers
Kev
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For baselayers...
I find polyester makes me sticky and clammy, not to mention the stink they hold. I think the reason it dries so quickly is the fact that it's basically plastic and so doesn't really absorb much in the first place. As a result the moisture and oils which dont make it to the surface and evaporate just kind of sit there? I don't know, just a theory, but the clammyness is real.
Some more expensive ones have antibacterial tech like silver fibres.
For me the way forward is...
Merino for cooler periods/long trips
Bamboo for summer/OK for multi days but not as long as merino
Polyester for 1 day max (and to cheaply fill the wardrobe whilst you build up a merino, bamboo collection maybe.
Regarding waterproofs, I understand the struggle. I get so hot walking.
Gtx Pro seems to be advised a fair amount.
Dare I say it?
UMBRELLA!
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Hmm, thats good to know. I was hoping a snug fit may stop the sticky damp feeling, but perhaps the polyester itself also contributes.
It is a pity I don't get on with merino, but it sounds like you would prefer bamboo anyway for warmer situations. I've never tried it myself, so thanks for that suggestion - certainly something to investigate.
The multi-day thing isn't necessarily a problem with the kind of day-long walks I do, especially if the layer is cheap enough to own spares. Or it could be washed overnight, if it wasn't too fussy about washing & drying requirements.
Unbrellas wouldn't be completely out, but for proper walking I find they become a faff to hold up all the time - especially if it is breezy. And windy really doesn't work with them!
Cheers,Kev
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Yeh bamboo is a game changer for me. Super super soft on skin, some of the properties of wool (anti bacterial, stays warm when wet), and breathes well.
Negatives are...
Maybe not so resistant to abrasion eg backpack straps (but is strong)
Doesn't dry as fast, but this can be improved with thin material
Often expensive
There are backpacking umbrellas you see Americans using. Never used one
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Thanks again. Looking around the internet at bamboo, it certainly looks very potential indeed. But much more variable in quality than polyester, and often intended to add more warmth as well, so choosing the right design might be very important.
On the other hand, very little claims to be quite as cool or wicking as good synthetic materials, and they're often cheaper too. So my final choice probably depends if I can find a close-fitting poly one that feels comfy, and if not then try stepping up to bamboo.
Cheers, Kev.
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I'm happy with my cheapo Mountain Equipment 'Isocool' synthetic tops - comfortable and they do the job.
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A agree with Ronin 83 but in my case, I've more or less overcome the synthetic pong problem by wearing my Brynge 'string vest' underneath each garment. The 'string vest' is polypropylene so I can clean, squeeze and dry it all within a few minutes, and on a hot day, if I want to, I just put it on me wet and it dries on within about 45 seconds. It equally helps with my bamboo and merinos layers as well.
When hiking I personally prefer synthetic, (but not those elasticated Armour type garments) because they wash and dry so easily. I like bamboo for its comfort and softness (makes great underwear as well) but they can sometimes take all day to dry on the back of my rucksack, but less if the weather is hot and sunny. I've also been tempted to buy bamboo socks for hiking but I'm just not sure about them?
I bought a hiking umbrella once, I took it with me once and never used it because when I had the occasion to it was just too windy.
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When hiking I personally prefer synthetic, (but not those elasticated Armour type garments) because they wash and dry so easily. I like bamboo for its comfort and softness (makes great underwear as well) but they can sometimes take all day to dry on the back of my rucksack, but less if the weather is hot and sunny. I've also been tempted to buy bamboo socks for hiking but I'm just not sure about them?
Early days, but bought some thin mid length bamboo socks from Tesco’s a few days ago (pack of five for six quid), and have used them as liners on last couple of walks.
First impressions positive...but long way to go before I can say more.
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I have worn bamboo socks as liners for a long time now. I get the soft top ones, because I hate the dig of elasticated tops on socks at the end of a long day on my feet. I usually wear them under the sports direct karrimir merino walking socks. Since I lather my feet in olive oil and t tree oil mix every morning, walking or not, I've avoided blisters though Ive had a couple of hot spots (usually under the meaty part of my big toe (1st joint). I use superfeet green insoles, though just recently I've been trying the gel insoles someone on here recommended awhile ago.
The bamboo socks are really comfortable, and cheap as chips, never thought of trying bamboo base layers but you've got me thinking.
Just waiting for lockdown to end and feel safe to travel back up home for a while and start my Northumberland circular.
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This is certainly worth thinking about for me, too. I'd been concentrating on tops/jackets initially, as that is where comfort could stand the biggest improvement, but feet and other (erm) 'sweaty areas' are still very much part of the bigger picture.
In fact looking after feet is especially important for many diabetics, both to avoid injury from rubbing and also undue restriction to circulation. So decent socks aren't to be sniffed at :)
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50/60 miles week in/ week out is a lot I think. We used to do a “mileage table” here where regular contributors reputed mileage done...2 to 3 thousand miles a year would be “top” range. (I put asterisks round “top”, because for most of us, it’s enjoyment that’s key.)
On base layers I don’t think there’s as much difference between low priced and high priced base layers as applies to outer layers (I do spend chunky money on base layers but I do it knowing comfort gains will be marginal.)
If you just buy something made out of an appropriate material (polyester, merino wool, bamboo) you won’t go far wrong...a ten quid Regatta polyester base layer or a ten quid Merino from Aldi will give most of benefits of something far dearer.
Of course..all my opinion..but suspect a fair number of others have a similar view.
I have tried a wide range of makes and materials as base layers and have found nothing that comes close to the material used by Paramo. My initial use was for cycling on a recumbent which generates a lot more heat / sweat than walking and I'd have my back pressed against a seat pad. This was a challenge until I moved to the Paramo T shirts. When using them for backpacking I find that I no longer get that wet cold feeling when putting my pack back on after a rest stop, the water having been removed from my skin. I don't buy into their reversibility concept and always use them 'max wicking' side in. Clearly these are not at the budget end of the spectrum. However when I walked with a friend he had a Helly Hanson base layer that looked to be made from identical material to the Paramo and can be bought for far less. I have bought one of these, but please note that their sizing is on the tight side (before lockdown may I add!!!) so you might want to go 'one size up' unless you have a six pack you want to show to to others. I haven't tested it throughly but the structure looks and feels identical to the Paramo.
My experience is that in sustained rain you will never keep fully dry. Either wind blow fine droplets will come through the breathable membrane, or water will wick up your wrists of down you neck. If this doesn't happen, then your sweat will not get out because of the high level of water on the outside of the jacket (and here regular washing and reproofing to help it bead does help to a point). Thus the secret (if that is the correct term) is to keep the water moving outwards away from your skin. Then when the rain stops it can escape through the waterproof membrane, or you take off your jacket and it evaporates yet more readily.
Paramo waterproofs are OK in very cold weather, but in the Summer / Autumn I (and many others) find them way too hot to use when active. If the temperature was below 4 C and there was sustained rain I'd go for my Paramo waterproof, but mostly this gets used for my short walk or running commute to work as I never get hot enough for it to be a problem within 2 miles.
My approach is to use a Paramo baselayer and windproof top for as much of the time as possible and when the rain looks being set in for more than 20 min then move to GoreTex. As Richard has said, and I concur, nothing yet has beaten Goretex for performance but it is in itself not perfect - it does not keep out wind blown cloud.
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All very useful info - thanks very much for taking the time to post it all!
Your experience with the paramo (and thoughts on Helly-Hensen) base-layer sounds very much what I'm hoping to achieve, so that's great to hear! I was already considering the HH lifa, but will see what paramo offer as well - perhaps if built like other paramo stuff, longevity could warrant higher initial prices.
I'm not bulky but am still a long way from having a toned torso, so I've generally gone for looser fits.. but now it looks like that has been a mistake wrt best comfort. So perhaps for use under a waterproof (and windproof) I'll just go with the intended snug fit, and maybe put a looser poly tee over it if the outer shell ever gets taken off whilst in company.
Yeah, I've never achieved 'dry' in the rain, so am not expecting too much. I suppose base-layers will always add some insulation whether wished or not, and waterproofs all restrict permeability and breathability (whatever their marketing may suggest). But I don't actually mind getting a bit damp provided it isn't also uncomfortable, so probably I'll count it as successful if the moisture being evaporated can keep up with any amount of sweat and ingress, whilst the baselayer avoids feeling besieged in the process.
Thanks again,
Kev
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There's always the softshell approach. I mean original softshell not what are often marketed as softshell.
We've been there before so I won't repeat.
The British army lightweight thermal smock is actually pretty good, sometimes nicknamed 'buffalo', but much thinner fleece than a real buffalo.
Also I have a rab borealis jacket which is a really breathable nice shell for wind/rain resistance (nowhere near waterproof at all). Limited use, but I do love it. Also use it for running.
I have some bamboo socks and I like them, but as they're thick they don't dry fast at all (more a problem when you wash them than in use)
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When I used to motorcycle to work I experienced that water can travel upwards. Get to a certain speed when its raining and I knew I was going to be wet, the rain had a tendency to creep upwards to my neck and then dribbled over the top of my tight neck waterproof collar and down inside my waterproofs. I then experienced a cold wet feeling down my back or the same feeling between my legs. I've experienced this same phenomenon when walking in the rain, if the conditions are right, no matter how tight my waterproofing is around my face or around my neck I'll get wet no matter what I'm wearing.
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Yeah, I've got a softshell (from memory a Rab Exodus), it has minimal insulation compared to most and pit-zips as well. But in spite of the breathability and venting it is still quite warm and can't take all-day rain, so hasn't been an answer to walking in sustained mild/warm wet conditions - it really just replaces the wind-proof shell in winter. A thin hard shell seems no warmer, which is why I'm hoping the new air-permeable types might now offer the best of both worlds, or at least a better compromise.
I've been looking at baselayers from paramo and helly-hansen, that Paul mentioned above. They have several, but Paramo's "Parameta T" and HH's "Lifa Active" seem the versions most intended for warm situations. I believe they're both dual material/layer designs, which isn't something I've tried before; on paper (or screen) they do seem the business so think I shall try one of them; likely the HH since paramo seem less available at the moment.
Though I am intrigued by the reversible claims of the paramo; I can see that keeping sweat by the skin whilst it is evaporated might be cooler. But Paul didn't seem too impressed, so possibly more suited to greater types of activity than I would do - e.g. where core temperature is at risk, rather than sustained comfort walking in British summertime.
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"But in spite of the breathability and venting it is still quite warm and can't take all-day rain"
That's the thing, it's a different principle. It's worth researching. So instead of trying to stay bone dry, the idea is to accept that you'll get wet, but to be comfortable, good temp and dry fast.
I'm still on the fence about it myself
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Yeah, I've got a softshell (from memory a Rab Exodus), it has minimal insulation compared to most and pit-zips as well. But in spite of the breathability and venting it is still quite warm and can't take all-day rain, so hasn't been an answer to walking in sustained mild/warm wet conditions - it really just replaces the wind-proof shell in winter. A thin hard shell seems no warmer, which is why I'm hoping the new air-permeable types might now offer the best of both worlds, or at least a better compromise.
I've been looking at baselayers from paramo and helly-hansen, that Paul mentioned above. They have several, but Paramo's "Parameta T" and HH's "Lifa Active" seem the versions most intended for warm situations. I believe they're both dual material/layer designs, which isn't something I've tried before; on paper (or screen) they do seem the business so think I shall try one of them; likely the HH since paramo seem less available at the moment.
Though I am intrigued by the reversible claims of the paramo; I can see that keeping sweat by the skin whilst it is evaporated might be cooler. But Paul didn't seem too impressed, so possibly more suited to greater types of activity than I would do - e.g. where core temperature is at risk, rather than sustained comfort walking in British summertime.
Just a FYI I owned a Parameta T Paramo piece (their Mountain Shirt - which I suppose is meant to be a winter base layer/mid layer). It's probably quite useful but it's a pain in the backside to strip off topless in the middle of a brisk breeze to turn your top inside out. It's probably really useful for long distance backpacking where it doubles as two items-in-one though. Particularly if you're doing lots of valley walking. In practice I prefer Power Grid base layers for winter condition and a sturdy 100wt fleece mid layer in 3-season conditions. Bomb proof, £10 to replace if you snag it on a fence or wall.
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Useful to hear, thanks. It sounds like for my type of use it would be more of an option before setting out, then - according to general conditions - than to keep swapping whilst on the move. Or I could just choose which I preferred and stick with it always.
So, it may be nice to have the choice but probably not something I should base the decision on.
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"But in spite of the breathability and venting it is still quite warm and can't take all-day rain"
That's the thing, it's a different principle. It's worth researching. So instead of trying to stay bone dry, the idea is to accept that you'll get wet, but to be comfortable, good temp and dry fast.
I'm still on the fence about it myself
Yes I agree, in fact I bought the soft shell in that hope. I'm not a stranger to getting damp, whether by sweat or rain or both, so it seemed worth a go. However, it isn't noticeably more water-resistant or breathable than my wind-breaker and is 'much' warmer at the same time, so I've not been convinced by the concept unfortunately. I've since realised that a lot of reviews that got me interested are based around mostly cold and dry or snowy climates (as indeed are many of the ones on base-layers!) and I agree it is very good in that kind of situation, but less so for mild and soggy.
Thats really why I'm coming back to the thinner shell - 'if' it were significantly more waterproof than a wind-shell, and yet still suitably air-permeable/breathable. But I've been misled by outrageous marketing claims before, so don't have much faith - some of them more or less lie IMO, just in a legally defensible way. I'm also sure that the DWR will still wet out after some hours, regardless of what membrane is below it. Unless going for the shakedry (or columbia's equivalent) anyway, which might be a bit fragile for my type of use though the idea is very attractive.
So possibly I'm on a fool's errand, and should just worry about the baselayer and design of shell, rather than chase ever more costly and yet still disappointing waterproof technology.
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Either wind blow fine droplets will come through the breathable membrane
It does not keep out wind blown cloud.
Having been out in winds up to 40 mph in Scotland etc many times in proper dreich conditions I am not entirely convinced that wind can blow water through a Gore-tex membrane which has a very high Hydrostatic Head measurement unless it has been punctured. It is certainly true that if the DWR coating is worn or patchy, water from rain and/or low cloud (mist) fully wets/saturates the surface of the jacket. This has two effects: i) the water film significantly reduces breathability through the PTFE membrane and ii) the wind evaporating some of the surface water film cools the fabric causing more condensation of water vapour inside the jacket. IMHO these two effects make the inside of the jacket even more damp/wet and give the illusion of water droplets being blown through the membrane.
What do others think?
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Having been out in winds up to 40 mph in Scotland etc many times in proper dreich conditions I am not entirely convinced that wind can blow water through a Gore-tex membrane which has a very high Hydrostatic Head measurement unless it has been punctured. It is certainly true that if the DWR coating is worn or patchy, water from rain and/or low cloud (mist) fully wets/saturates the surface of the jacket. This has two effects: i) the water film significantly reduces breathability through the PTFE membrane and ii) the wind evaporating some of the surface water film cools the fabric causing more condensation of water vapour inside the jacket. IMHO these two effects make the inside of the jacket even more damp/wet and give the illusion of water droplets being blown through the membrane.
What do others think?
Agree that Gortex lining does not leak unless damaged. The only time I have been wet through wearing my ME Gortex Hard shell. was a full day of constant heavy rain and high winds and that day the water found it's way in through the face opening walking into the weather, after about 6 hours on the hill.
Note to Richard I changed my strategy after, as you recommended and have remained dry through two similar days since. O0
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Note to Richard I changed my strategy after, as you recommended and have remained dry through two similar days since. O0
A strategy evolved in Orkney. :)
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Having been out in winds up to 40 mph in Scotland etc many times in proper dreich conditions I am not entirely convinced that wind can blow water through a Gore-tex membrane which has a very high Hydrostatic Head measurement unless it has been punctured. ...
What do others think?
I am convinced that a Gore Tex membrane, in good conditions, is impervious to the worst that the weather can throw at it.
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Agreed. My goretex jacket is my go to jacket when I'm expecting heavy rain O0
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It is sometimes claimed that if gore-tex gets dirty then dampness can get through, by the contamination wicking it. But it has never happened to me, so not sure if people are just seeing the effects of reduced breathability. Certainly when the DWR fails, people have misinterpreted the reduced breathability from that as leaks.
For me (unless the shell is damaged or an opening is presented to the rain) it is only ever the breathability that has resulted in wetness. Which sadly is pretty normal in less cold conditions - even with well maintained gore-tex. For all the hype on breathability, the stay dry promise doesn't seem to cover getting sodden from the inside, but personally I don't find the resulting sauna any more pleasant whichever direction it originates from. The new Pro version does sound significantly better, but so costly that I've yet to try it.
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Following on from the helpful suggestions, I bagged a used goretex-pro jacket to try, by mountain equipment. Quite surprised how close fitting it is, their small is said to be for a 38"-40" chest and I'm 39", yet I find it snug even just over a t-shirt. However, I'm hoping that might be good for my purpose, since (as I understand it) air gaps can slow the transfer of sweat and also allow parts of the shell to become cold and clammy.
It was wet here today but reasonably cool, so not very demanding conditions to test in. But I stomped up a few hills and it didn't get oppressive or damp inside, so that is encouraging.
I'd also ordered a HH 'lifa active' base-layer to team with it, but there was a stock problem - in fact many things like this seem to be out of stock all over (not sure if it is just me being unseasonal, or if it is pandemic related). So I decided to order an odlo 'active f-dry' base layer instead, which is also a dual material/layer approach to wicking and seems well regarded in fields like cycling and running. (Possibly even more open weave ones would be better, but I'm struggling enough with close fitting, without also looking like fishnets). So high hopes when that arrives, too.
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Following on from the helpful suggestions, I bagged a used goretex-pro jacket to try, by mountain equipment. Quite surprised how close fitting it is, their small is said to be for a 38"-40" chest and I'm 39", yet I find it snug even just over a t-shirt. However, I'm hoping that might be good for my purpose, since (as I understand it) air gaps can slow the transfer of sweat and also allow parts of the shell to become cold and clammy.
It was wet here today but reasonably cool, so not very demanding conditions to test in. But I stomped up a few hills and it didn't get oppressive or damp inside, so that is encouraging.
Yes, there is a trend for close fitting shells, something for people to be aware of.
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I've tried close-fitting, not to my liking, especially finding when there isn't enough room underneath to 'layer up' as I became colder and colder. My yardstick is if I cant fit my down jacket underneath comfortably I don't want to know. It's not that I will take it with me as such, it just seems to indicate to me how close-fitting I shouldn't go to.
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Yeah, I've always gone large enough to accommodate as many mid layers as may be wanted, even in the depths of winter. Though thinking about it now, that usually only lasts a couple of months, and of course makes the shell really quite baggy and flappy for most of the year (yet not in a nice airy way, like a poncho).
So this more snug fit is quite a departure, and initially seemed like a mistake. However, I've already grown to quite like it, and of course it is the milder and warmer times of year when I most want the benefits that I'm hoping it'll bring. So perhaps it could be worth reserving my old/bigger classic gore-tex jacket for winter layering, and (if it works out) this newer one for the other three seasons. Possibly also think about an outer layer of insulation for breaks, rather than a mid layer - if it is seriously throwing it down I tend not to stop anyway.
All just possibilities at the mo, but seems worth thinking about. I haven't been overwhelmed by my current/past solutions, so could be worth at least trying a new way.
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It was raining and drizzling when I went out for my off-road run this morning so I tried just wearing my Brynge string vest and my Rab Kinetic on top. I found it worked surprisingly well, I felt warm enough, I perspired but didn't feel wet and when I got to my halfway rest spot I just took off my jacket and let the breeze dry me off, that worked well and only took about 3 minutes. If I'd been wearing my merino or my bamboo baselayer then feeling dry would have taken a lot longer. At the moment I'm just trying to use every weather type and torso clothing combinations to help me decide what gear to take with me when I next hike.
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Another useful post, thank you! That is very much along the lines I'm hoping for myself, with the synthetic base-layer and a reasonably breathable shell, so is quite encouraging.
I don't understand why I don't get on so well with merino, as it is often described as non-itch. But I also find that it feels continually damp once I've warmed up (which also isn't what people tend to say about it), so going for wicking and fast drying seems like the way to go. Really just a comfort barrier between the skin and the often cold/clammy shell, that otherwise interferes as little as possible with the normal process of sweating away the heat.
Though in cooler times I could try some thin merino over it, perhaps. Might possibly provide a temporary home for moisture, away from the skin, when short periods of high activity outstrip the shell's breathability. Though I think simple/cheap fleecy stuff might provide better actual throughput of moisture for more sustained activity.
Cheers,
Kev
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If you hike in the rain you will get wet (http://walkingforum.co.uk/Smileys/alive/smiley.gif)
Either from the rain or from condensation inside your jacket. It's a fact of life. Don't get worked up about it.
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Yes indeed. That is why the point behind this thread is not about staying dry, but rather to stay more comfortable. So in all likelihood managing the moisture and temperature better, rather than expecting to be rid of it.
I've been through a long phase of getting wet rather than fully keeping out the rain, and it could be that is still the best way in warmer seasons. But on very wet days it definitely has its limits of enjoyability, whilst at least the moisture and heat coming from inside is of finite quantity. So dealing with that (nicely) seems worth another go.
Rain used to be part of the fun in a way, on purely recreational walks. But now I walk all the time and in whatever weather, I think it would be nice if relatively simple things could improve the experience somewhat - but either way, I'm not in danger of getting worked up about it so no worries there. :)
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I agree with you totally Birdman, which is why I look for natural ways to try to keep me dry as possible. In my experience, most rainy days have lulls in them (not all though, I've been in some real bummers) and that's the main reason I like to buy garments with full zips. In a lull, I open the zip, it helps to dry the inner perspiration fairly quickly, if it's real wetness from the outside it's often more difficult. It's just a chore that sometimes I need to go through.
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I agree with you totally Birdman, which is why I look for natural ways to try to keep me dry as possible. In my experience, most rainy days have lulls in them (not all though, I've been in some real bummers) and that's the main reason I like to buy garments with full zips. In a lull, I open the zip, it helps to dry the inner perspiration fairly quickly, if it's real wetness from the outside it's often more difficult. It's just a chore that sometimes I need to go through.
Yes, the most effective way to prevent/ get rid of condensation is simply venting. During a lull, just zip your jacket open and you will dry pretty quickly. I also find that armpit zips work quite well.
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It does surprise me that there haven't been more developments with venting. There are front/chest zips these days as an alternative to pit-zips, but otherwise not a lot seems to be greatly different from years ago. In fact at one time there were jackets with overlap-style vents, which would work well in the rain (provided it wasn't being blown upwards) but I've not seen those lately.
I suppose many membranes don't breath well (or at all) until a sweaty differential has built up, which vents might prevent. Or perhaps adding vents doesn't look good when trying to market breathable technology as if it performs akin to a net curtain. It also seems there's more crossover in application too, so jackets that are expected to also cope with things like climbing might not be optimum for walking. Or probably I'm over-thinking and its simply fashion :)
That said, Patagonia have done some interesting things, I quite like they way they think and have got on well with their wind-proof layers in surprisingly heavy intermittent rain. Unfortunately their more water-resistant innovations seem fairly warm, but it is encouraging that such things exist.
Though venting aside, Gore-tex look to have finally made some substantial improvements, too. If I understand correctly the pro and active versions are both more breathable and even slightly air permeable at last, so I'm looking forward to seeing if this time expectations might be at least a bit more supported.
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The Achilles-heel of all breathable jackets is really the Durable Water Repellent (DWR) coating, which is really not durable at all in my experience. Once your breathable jacket wets out, it's no better than a plastic bag.
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Pit zips. I have a venerable jacket that has pit zips. I opened them on first use years ago and have never, ever closed them since. Strangely for whatever reason rain has never been a problem in that area. Thinking about it, for me, I don't think the actual zips are necessary, permanent pit venting seems to work. And can I say if it works on the hills in Northumberland with the rain coming at you horizontally from the German sea then it may work anywhere in the UK. As they say, when the wind is from the east tis neither fit for man nor beast.
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@jimbob, yes surprisingly little water comes in through the pit-zips. That is my experience too. For me, most water is usually entering through my sleeves, because I (hill)walk with poles so my arms are more or less horizontal and sometimes slightly up.
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I've learned not to expect too much from any product and if possible I now try to brush away the marketing blurb as best I can. There are lots of clothing and boots which I personally find are 'good enough' for all sorts of weather, but water/rain/dew, perspiration, etc is their weak link. I also know my £20 jacket is better at keeping me dry than my £250 jacket, so nowadays I just try (still not always successfully) to learn from it. As I've found out so many times in life you don't necessarily get what you pay for. You might for most or some things but in my experience, definitely wet weather gear claims can be very dubious.
As a comparison I have a 'cheap' Rab Vital wind jacket which has proved itself time and time again when it's windy! My cheap synthetic Alpkit 'warm' jacket (only warm under my Rab Vital) and my Berghaus Superlights used in the winter months are good as well and from this year I can now add my Brynge string vest to what I believe is my shortlist of successful purchases. But if I objectively judge the rest of my clothing gear and footwear, I'm sure if I made the effort I could always do better.
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Birdman, when I use my Pacerpoles I don't experience that water up the sleeve problem.
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The Achilles-heel of all breathable jackets is really the Durable Water Repellent (DWR) coating, which is really not durable at all in my experience. Once your breathable jacket wets out, it's no better than a plastic bag.
Yes, and whilst re-proofing helps, it never seems quite as good as the original either, sadly. Apparently you can re-spread the original for a few occasions by using a cool iron which might prolong its use a bit, but I haven't tried it myself.
I got quite interested in the external membrane (outdry?) for that reason, if anything breathable would suit sustained rain it would seem to be something that doesn't wet out, but am put off by its apparent fragility.. The areas I often walk in are full of thorny hedges and untamed brush rather than the popular open trails which a lot of gear reviewers seem to favour.
I've only had a couple of jackets with pit zips and in truth they weren't quite as good as just mention here, but even then the venting still outweighed the small leaks from modest rain so I'm thoroughly sold on the idea. The new (to me) jacket I just got has big front zipped vents but I also made sure it had pit zips too, I hope they turn out to work well :)
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Birdman, when I use my Pacerpoles I don't experience that water up the sleeve problem.
Never thought about that, but I guess Pacerpoles could indeed have an advantage in that respect.
I hear very good stories about them anyway. Only downside I see for myself is that they could be a bit more difficult to stuff in a backpack (on international flights I take my poles apart and stuff them into my backpack. The airport has once lost my poles when I checked them in seperately - never again! Fortunately it was on the way back).
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I've learned not to expect too much from any product and if possible I now try to brush away the marketing blurb as best I can. There are lots of clothing and boots which I personally find are 'good enough' for all sorts of weather, but water/rain/dew, perspiration, etc is their weak link. I also know my £20 jacket is better at keeping me dry than my £250 jacket, so nowadays I just try (still not always successfully) to learn from it. As I've found out so many times in life you don't necessarily get what you pay for. You might for most or some things but in my experience, definitely wet weather gear claims can be very dubious.
As a comparison I have a 'cheap' Rab Vital wind jacket which has proved itself time and time again when it's windy! My cheap synthetic Alpkit 'warm' jacket (only warm under my Rab Vital) and my Berghaus Superlights used in the winter months are good as well and from this year I can now add my Brynge string vest to what I believe is my shortlist of successful purchases. But if I objectively judge the rest of my clothing gear and footwear, I'm sure if I made the effort I could always do better.
I've been caught by the hype too many times really. I always resolve not to allow it again but never quite manage to be completely immune to it. In a way the mediocre nature of a lot of these products probably helps the manufacturers sell more to me, since I'm obviously hoping they'll be an improvement.
However life and finances haven't been the best for the last few years, which has forced me to think three times instead of two. I tend to try things second hand now, if expensive, on the basis that they can be given an adequate test and re-sold for similar money. If they don't work then little lost, or if they do then they can be either kept or replaced by a new one.
It isn't conducive to getting the latest things of course, but in a way that also helps to avoid the hype. The main issue is that one takes a risk with the condition, and at times even the nature of the product since a surprising number have few details on them and/or change greatly throughout their production. Gore-tex is a mine-field in some cases, since similar names have been used to describe quite different products and generations of product, there are quite a few Proshell jackets being sold as Pro jackets, for instance. So sooner or later the srtategy will probably bite me.
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I've learned not to expect too much from any product and if possible I now try to brush away the marketing blurb as best I can. There are lots of clothing and boots which I personally find are 'good enough' for all sorts of weather, but water/rain/dew, perspiration, etc is their weak link. I also know my £20 jacket is better at keeping me dry than my £250 jacket, so nowadays I just try (still not always successfully) to learn from it. As I've found out so many times in life you don't necessarily get what you pay for. You might for most or some things but in my experience, definitely wet weather gear claims can be very dubious.
As a comparison I have a 'cheap' Rab Vital wind jacket which has proved itself time and time again when it's windy! My cheap synthetic Alpkit 'warm' jacket (only warm under my Rab Vital) and my Berghaus Superlights used in the winter months are good as well and from this year I can now add my Brynge string vest to what I believe is my shortlist of successful purchases. But if I objectively judge the rest of my clothing gear and footwear, I'm sure if I made the effort I could always do better.
I agree with this. SOME expensive gear is really worth the extra money. For example, the quality of a sleepingbag or quilt is really directly related to the quality of the down. And quality (high cuin) down is simply expensive. Another thing is my Osprey Backpack, which is excellent to start with but Osprey just keeps fixing all the wear and tear free of charge, so over time it has actually worked out cheaper than a "cheap" backpack that I would have had to replace four times already.
For me, I don't really see the added value of a £400 rain jacket above my £60 Marmot Precip. I might have a different opinion if I were to climb K2, but for non-technical walking it is simply good enough.
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.. In fact at one time there were jackets with overlap-style vents, which would work well in the rain (provided it wasn't being blown upwards) but I've not seen those lately....
(https://i.ibb.co/L1tHMTT/09-Horizontal-Waterfall.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/VM1GYtp/10-The-Water-Cannon.jpg)
https://youtu.be/G9ELkz04yss (https://youtu.be/G9ELkz04yss)
https://wildaboutwalking.wordpress.com/orkney/yesnaby-cliffs/ (https://wildaboutwalking.wordpress.com/orkney/yesnaby-cliffs/)
Though venting aside, Gore-tex look to have finally made some substantial improvements, too. If I understand correctly the pro and active versions are both more breathable and even slightly air permeable at last, so I'm looking forward to seeing if this time expectations might be at least a bit more supported.
+1 for Gore Tex Pro - I run hot and have had no condensation problems, and my "Lhotse" kept me dry during all weather winter dog walks in Orkney (including on the cliffs above).
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However life and finances haven't been the best for the last few years, which has forced me to think three times instead of two. I tend to try things second hand now, if expensive, on the basis that they can be given an adequate test and re-sold for similar money. If they don't work then little lost, or if they do then they can be either kept or replaced by a new one.
Personally, I always take pleasure in optimising value (pleasure, quality of life) per spent £. Sometimes an expensive item is justified because it gives you that much extra enjoyment. But very often it is not worth it. Then I feel happier with a less expensive choice, with the thought that I can spend the money that I saved on something that does increase my happiness (usually another adventure in nature).
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@richardh1905, I can almost smell the sea-spray when I look at your pictures (http://walkingforum.co.uk/Smileys/alive/smiley.gif)
I've got to visit Orkney some day...
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Pit zips...
I have quite mixed feelings about them.
My history of trying to buy a jacket that was both waterproof and breathable goes from cheap through to relatively expensive.
Early on, I bought an OEX jacket (which I still like to wear for casual use) and it's got a slightly shiny, plastic-y surface that's always been completely waterproof. However, the material isn't at all breathable so cooling is provided by zipped vents on the sides.
Much the same is true of my Dare2B jacket. This has a heavier, warmer material that's (usually) waterproof but it doesn't breathe well at all. Instead, it has very long pit zips that run from just above the waist to the elbows!
So I decided to try moving from budget to midrange and bought a Berghaus Gore-Tex jacket for around £120. But as much as I wanted this to be a success, the jacket was simply too hot. It was very waterproof, but not breathable and again cooling was via pit zips.
My last two jackets haven't used pit zips. I bought a Berghaus Paclite 2 jacket and then a Rohan Vertex jacket. Both are far more breathable than what went before - especially the Vertex. I actually see not having pit zips as a Good Thing, because it saves weight and (in my view) isn't letting the material get away with not being breathable!
On the other hand... I absolutely love my Berghaus soft shell jacket. The jacket is (how can I put it?) very showerproof. It doesn't have pit zips, but the large side opening pockets do the same job because the pockets are mesh and allow air to circulate around my body, and I use the zips to regulate the temperature.
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@richardh1905, I can almost smell the sea-spray when I look at your pictures (http://walkingforum.co.uk/Smileys/alive/smiley.gif)
I've got to visit Orkney some day...
I suspect that, as a birder and a hiker, you will love Orkney, Birdman. Hoy in particular is stunning (https://wildaboutwalking.wordpress.com/orkney/old-man-of-hoy/), and perfectly suited to a night or two of wild camping (although I never got around to it in my 18 years on the islands).
If you have any specific questions, pm me.
(https://i.ibb.co/TbcxXgm/16-Old-Man-First-View.jpg)
The Old Man of Hoy. Note Ben Loyal and Ben Hope in the distance far right.
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Personally, I always take pleasure in optimising value (pleasure, quality of life) per spent £. Sometimes an expensive item is justified because it gives you that much extra enjoyment. But very often it is not worth it. Then I feel happier with a less expensive choice, with the thought that I can spend the money that I saved on something that does increase my happiness (usually another adventure in nature).
Me too. I'm quite happy to scrimp on baselayers, fleeces etc, as cheapo ones from Lidl or Mountain Warehouse will do the job just fine, but as an all weather walker, a good waterproof is particularly important to me. Luckily my adventures cost next to nothing, as I have the fells on my doorstep, but I do want to spread my wings a bit next year.
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Heh, unfortunately I don't live anywhere nearly so nice as those photos - very envious - but yes I can accept there'll always be occasions to defeat almost any strategy. For all the point of this thread, I'm not too upset by rain but when combined with strong wind it can be quite miserable at times. Though at least the wind can help with cooling, so it still won't stop me (within reason, I'm not suicidal!).
Pit zips...
I have quite mixed feelings about them.(snip)
Always good to hear alternative views. Yes I suppose there are times when these things work better than others. I'm not too bothered about weight as such, I mostly walk for exercise anyway, but if it means thicker and warmer then it is still quite undesirable.
I think thats really why my attempts with soft-shells have ultimately been mixed, in warmer seasons; they are quite reasonably breathable but also thicker and warmer. Similarly, my paclite is actually less breathable than my classic gore-tex coat, but because it is thin the paclite seems to dump heat at a roughly similar rate.
Yes getting good value can be satisfying sometimes. I think that I'm over paying top money for very slight improvements in performance, especially as they're very often underwhelmingly small, and I'm not bothered by brand names either except where they might genuinely mean something about quality. I keep meaning to look more into military surplus stuff actually; a lot of it is perhaps behind the times but some of it is quite good and tends to be stuff that lasts (e.g. the boots I use). Just a danger of looking like a wannabe soldier, in some cases..
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Thanks Ricard I needed some new photos for my desktop background photos. They are good.
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You're welcome, gwm.
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My main number one criteria when walking in persistent rain, is maintaining body heat.
Thermal hat, balaclava, very warm insulating gloves, and as they say, there;s no such thing as bad weather, its incorrect choice of clothing.
As soon as you begin to feel at all cold, then its almost game over, you lose body heat rapidly, and if your facing a strong headwind, especially high on a mountain top, its very easy to develop hyperthermia.
A walker can tolerate persistent rain, and getting soaked to the skin, as long as they stay warm.
Years ago, when attempting the various challenge walks, especially in the Brecon Beacons, i got totally soaked on more than one occasion, due to the hours of walking in persistent heavy rain.
No GoreTex or waterproof, would have kept you dry, the rain was incessant, and there was no escaping it.
If you keep warm, with the right layering, then comfort can be maintained in sustained rain.
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Dyffrn, (Thermal hat, balaclava, very warm insulating gloves) I've now got this mental Yeti/Bigfoot picture of you in my head, wandering around the mountains and wet through! ;D
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Im sure you know what i meant.
Try traversing the Carneddau ridge, way above 3000ft, in driving rain, soaked to the skin, and still several miles from your car, or heading towards Mc Turks farm, the other side of Fforest Fawr, in the Beacons, knowing you still have the Carmarthen vans to traverse.
If you can somehow maintain body heat, then you can tolerate such conditions.
Its still no fun or picnic, soaking wet, fingers turning to icicles, and shivering uncontrollably.
Ive had very mild bouts of hyperthermia on two occasions, thankfully in the company of others, who quickly recognised my symptoms.
You can tolerate sustained rain, as long as you have the right clothing to cope with it.
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As soon as you begin to feel at all cold, then its almost game over, you lose body heat rapidly, and if your facing a strong headwind, especially high on a mountain top, its very easy to develop hyperthermia.
It certainly isn't ... but you might get hypothermia O0
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Generally I find it fairly easy to add enough water/wind-proofing and insulation to stay warm, though thats probably because in winter I don't (currently) do much mountain walking or venture out in gales and wotnot. But that may be changing soon, and might already have done so were it not for these rather restrictive times, so it is definitely something I'd need to consider; thanks for the reminder!
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I don't mind rain usually, there are so many types of it, some types are better than others. I dislike in-my-face wind most of all and especially when it's raining as well and particularly when it's cold rain. When I was hiking the Two Moors Way in 2019 I had one day of rain, and it was warm rain! It felt most unusual against my skin!
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I tried an experiment this afternoon, wearing my Pertex 6 Buffalo shirt, to the summit of Diffwys.
The rain was throwing it down, for most of the afternoon, and i chickened out, by wearing a thermal under the pile lining.
The only part of my body that became cold, were my hands, as i was wearing my favourite gloves, which are totally useless in anything moist, their glorified windproof things, nothing else.
The rain eventually found its way through, and my thermal became damp, but apart from my hands, i could have continued all day, as i felt comfortably warm.
As i havent worn the Super 6 shirt for a few years, i was too timid, to go bareback in the thing, as it was far from warm outside, but correct choice of clothing can make walking in sustained prolonged heavy rain almost a joy.
Should have taken my waterproof overmitts, then i would have stayed out all day.
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That was a very useful test, thanks for the info! What kind of thermal were you using?
It sounds quite similar (in principle) to what I do now, which is to use a base-layer with a Paramo/Nikwax windproof over it. That was the end result of failing to find sufficiently breathable waterproof jackets (or sufficiently cool softshells) for milder/warmer weather. I can't claim it is actually pleasant in really heavy or prolonged rain, but it has served me quite well in a surprising range of conditions; if a different base-layer could offer a worthwhile improvement then I shall be really quite satisfied with it for much of the year.
But gore-tex pro wasn't around last I tried the waterproof jackets. It is very unlikely to replace the nikwax windproof (my expectations are managed!) but I'm hoping it will work along side it better than my classic gore-tex jacket did, so between them most situations will be covered as nicely as practicable.
Though nothing will be 100% perfect, of course. I just want to be sure that I'm not actually missing a trick, then I'll be content.
Cheers,
Kev
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I was using a rather old, thirty years old, at least, Helly Hansen Lifa.
Those things seem to defy age, as i can remember buying the thing sometime in the late 1980s, maybe very early 90s.
Its seen action in various locations around the Uk, Benn Nevis, Snowdon, Pen Y fan, Cadair Idris, a well travelled bit of clothing
Its had several repairs, of bits of thread holding together small holes, but it still works.
Its getting a bit thinner as the years go on, but it still provides a bit of insulation against the cold, not much, but a bit.
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Its getting a bit thinner as the years go on . . .
Aren't we all :(
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Ah, thanks. The Lifas do seem very well regarded, perhaps I should have held out for some stock to come back in. Oh well, the odlo thing I bought seems to be at least decent so will do for testing purposes. I'll put a HH on the birthday list!
Cheers,
Kev
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Anyway, progress so far: it rained a bit today so I nipped out for several hours of trudging up hiils. Admittedly it wasn't really very warm so not a true test as yet, but I'm pleased to say that both the fully synthetic and the mostly-merino base-layers did quite well. So I think the key thing for me is more about the fit than anything; if there is no loose material to get cold and then intermittently touch the skin, it seems considerably more pleasant.
Otherwise, they both felt somewhat damp when highly active, but not unpleasantly so. The merino one felt slightly nicer when damp but carried on feeling damp most of the time, whilst the synthetic one dried out a few minutes after cresting the climbs, and it was generally cooler too. On the other hand, the merino one was a nicer to wear directly under the outer hard-shell; the thin synthetic one didn't disguise the touch of cold crinkly waterproof quite as well.
So pros and cons but overall both quite good. Though it still all goes pear-shaped once the waterproof's hood goes up, which by comparison feels and sounds like wearing a crisp packet over the head in noisy hurricane. Yet take it down and there is just a gentle breeze with birds singing quietly.. so hats may be the next thing on the agenda!
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I have hats! My summer one is a 'Sunday Afternoon Adventure hat, (not the waterproof one) I really like it but some people think its looks a bit weird. I have a really cold/windy winter hat, the brand is Highlander, it's called a mountain hat, it's close-fitting, waterproof and covers my ears and it has a nice peak, only £10 when I bought it about a year ago. When it's really cold and windy it's the best! It looks like the Lowe Alpine one but that can cost up to £30. Having had both I believe the Highlander is better, for me a much better fitting and more secure in the wind.
I also have a waterproof running hat called a Raidlight MP+ it comes with a neck cover as well. It's really useful in rain or after rain, and if running through woods no water goes down the back of my neck. I'm going to take it with me when I next go hiking, it will be ideal under my waterproof jacket hood.
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That is very helpful, thanks! That gives me a good start; whilst I've had lots of hats they've all been either for sun or cold, and all have been easily defeated by either light wind or rain (or both). A hat that would cope with at least modest wind and rain would make life a lot more pleasant in quite a large portion of the wet conditions I walk in.
Of course there would still be times when the hood was best, but even then possibly some thin soft thing, like a baselayer for a head, might help. To separate the hood from my balding head, and maybe also deaden the rattling noise reaching the ears.
Strange really, don't understand why I've never looked more at hats before. Hard-shell hoods have always seemed like a wall to the senses, which is okay if somewhere bleak and exposed but not great when in more convivial settings.
Thanks again,
Kev
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Of course there would still be times when the hood was best, but even then possibly some thin soft thing, like a baselayer for a head, might help. To separate the hood from my balding head, and maybe also deaden the rattling noise reaching the ears.
A buff works well under a hood.
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...
Of course there would still be times when the hood was best, but even then possibly some thin soft thing, like a baselayer for a head, might help. To separate the hood from my balding head, and maybe also deaden the rattling noise reaching the ears.
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I don't have hair, so hats are very important to me. :)
I have a Buff hat that's exactly as you describe - a base layer for the head. I normally wear it on its own if I want to keep the chill off, but a second hat (usually my Rab Polartec hat) easily goes over the top for maximum warmth. Basically, two lightweight hats provide three different levels of warmth.
At the other extreme from the Buff is my Sealskinz waterproof hat. It's a very warm conventional 'woolly' hat, but with a genuinely waterproof liner inside the material. O0
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I may have already mentioned this before? The other comfort I like in sustained rain is for my hands to remain dry. I stopped buying 'waterproof' gloves a few years ago. I now have a cheap £1.99 Decathlon 'Thinsulate' type gloves which are fine and if it gets really cold I just pull on my lightweight Marmot mittens, working together my hands can get as hot as toast. But to keep them dry I just use a fluted tube of waterproof material (my latest ones are made from Silnylon) on each hand, secured at the wrist and designed to be about 1" longer than my fingers. If it rains but the weather is warm enough I wear them without gloves on. They work so well and I haven't had wet hands or wet gloves for a couple of years now.
I've often thought that my ideal wet weather socks would be normal sock material to cover my feet but at the point where the top of my boots can let the water in the socks should then be waterproof and have a circular, up to 1" band around them that fully cover the boot opening, so any water would just drain off to the ground like a roof tile. I need to talk to my wife's friend to see if she can make me a prototype.
Lastly, I have noticed that perhaps the weak part of my Rab Kinetic waterproof jacket is how close-fitting the hood will be in sustained rain. I can tighten it around my face but I haven't yet managed to find a way of ensuring that it's tight enough for those horrible windy and 'rain in the face' kind of days.
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And if your wearing Buffalo kit, your in the Buff underneath
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Thanks for al the suggestions everyone! The buff hat certainly looks the business, so I shell definitely have to try one. I see there are base-layer hoodies too, but quite costly and quite a limited choice, so the buff hat looks a better bet to me.
TBH I'd not thought of getting a waterproof woolly hat - I'd imagined the rain would run off down one's neck but maybe not. Or maybe one with neck and ear flaps could help direct it further out, in combo with jackets that have a close-fitting collar.
Thanks also for the thoughts on gloves. I have a few to choose from that'll cover most temperatures, but none are waterproof and some aren't even very windproof - partly because the properly breathable ones are expensive and I don't like sweaty hands. So the over-tube idea sounds ingenious! Kind of like wrist gaiters.
Thanks again,
Kev
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...TBH I'd not thought of getting a waterproof woolly hat - I'd imagined the rain would run off down one's neck but maybe not. ...
If you check out the Sealskinz Waterproof Cold Weather Beanie Hat (https://www.sealskinz.com/products/waterproof-cold-weather-beanie-hat),
you might notice that the hat flares out a bit around the rim, which helps to stop water dripping down the neck. However, if it's raining hard enough for that to happen, then I'll have my hood up anyway! The hat is great for the bits in between heavy downpours. O0
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Perfect, thanks!
Normally when I want something it doesn't exist, but that looks perfect for cooler weather, the buff design ideal for hood-up weather, and the sunday afternoon design promising for warm rain. :)
Cheers,
Kev
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One point to note is that a quality waterproof jacket should have an adjustable hood capable of accommodating a bulky hat comfortably, as well as adjusting down to give a snug fit when no hat is worn.
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That's what my waterproof jacket offers, a hood to accommodate a helmet, which I think is the reason why I can't as yet get it to fit tightly around my face.
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Yes, that is certainly part of it. My hood is fairly cunning at shrinking, but inevitably still has to leave a lot of folded-up/creased material that unfortunately adds to the crackling noises as it moves or the wind blows it.
These days helmet compatibility seems much more common, to the point where I struggle to find jackets that I really like 'and' which have hoods that are optimally designed for heads. They still work of course, so i've just gone with them, but maybe should have thought more about that. However, at least there will be no problem at all fitting a suitable hat below it.
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I was wondering how to add something useful to this thread. But to be honest I've never felt comfortable in rain. (Except psychologically perhaps--sometimes one gets so sopping that a sort of Singin' in the Rain mentality takes over as one sploshes on.)
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I've pretty much given up trying to find a viable waterproof jacket. Pointless being waterproof if they make me drip with sweat. So these days I prioritise lightness and just bring a cheapo thin rain jacket that crushes down to nothing.
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One trip, I tried bringing an umbrella. First time I put it up was on a steep slope above Challaborough on the SW coastal path. It promptly blew inside out and nearly whisked me off over the Channel like Mary Poppins. Not to mention triggering a stampede by the sheep in the field, who'd never seen anything so outlandish. Only way I could keep the blasted thing under control was by jamming it up against my head, which if continued would've given me a cauliflower ear. So next time I came to a dustbin I chucked it in with an air of contempt. Now I knew why I'd never seen a hiker walking with a brolly.
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Like me really, because I had the 'readies' available that in the end is why I've bought my Rab Kinetic jacket. It has good write-ups and I've already found out it's 'waterproof' and can be used as a running jacket as well. I've used it four times now and the inside perspiration has been next to nothing even though all of the rest of me was steaming. I'm not expecting it to be waterproof for hours on end which is why I carry a back-up poncho with me.
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I get that.
I've not put my thin rain jacket on often. As a lot of people have said on this thread, other layers are important. I have a thick wool shirt that I allow to get wet in moderate rain. I feel more comfortable getting wet in that than in a sweaty jacket. I don't walk in heavy rain if I can help it.
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Thanks for the thoughts, they sound all too familiar! Yes, it does seem that waterproof technology still can't offer genuine comfort in milder/warmer temperatures, so I will still likely opt to get damp from the outside (rather than inside) - except when it is 'really' throwing down, anyway.
That said, the gore-tex Pro jacket and wicking+snug baselayer combo at least work better than my previous attempts, so some tangible progress at last. Not much different when climbing hills sadly, but quicker to become comfortable again afterwards, which seems much more reasonable than spending most of the walk in an oppressive fug. So I'd say it has extended the portion of the year in which a waterproof won't be a depressing prospect.
I'm hopeful that the snug baselayer will do similarly good things for the windproof and soft-shell too. That might extend the conditions in which those are acceptable, hopefully not leaving too many without a decent answer. Though the synthetic baselayer does stink quite badly after a few hours, so I might need a plan B if walking in polite company.