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Title: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: Sevenup on 12:10:07, 06/11/20
I’m just back from a couple of days walking from Spean Bridge to Corrour. Weather really good, sunny, mild breeze but below zero at night. I took merino underpants and tops, haglofs walking trousers, Patagonia lightweight nano puff top and a lightweight Mammut rain jacket and a pair of Compression tights. As a back up I had an Alpkit Morphosis jacket.


I am happy with my walking trousers and paired them on the first day with merino underpants and on the second with compression tights. I fell in a bog a couple of times but they dried really quickly in the breeze.


More of a concern are my tops. I sweat. I sweat buckets. No hiding it. Weather was mild enough when walking for that to make no difference. I didn’t need a jacket during the day at all except for the first 5 minutes when I used the Morphosis. Unfortunately, merino doesn’t dry well in sub zero temperatures and therefore is the wrong material for me to wear on multi day hikes unless it’s as PJs.


I would be interested to hear what any other ‘hot runners’ wear. I need light weight, quick drying multipurpose tops that allow me to layer up but keep bulk and weight low. I would appreciate any input.


On another but linked matter, my Vizsla spent a miserable night in sub zero temperature despite an alpkit downie, a fleece pad and a tight fitting top. I am thinking of buying a couple of decathlon lightweight down style belay jackets and making a bedtime jacket for him. He is quite a slender dog with no fat to speak of, but doesn't seem to be able to retain as much body heat as I do. Has anyone out there found a solution to keeping their companion warm. I abandoned 2 days early because it was due to be -5c at rannoch and he didn’t sleep the first night.
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: ninthace on 12:17:51, 06/11/20
I don't have a solution but I can sympathise.  Last winter the moisture wicked through to my outer layer and then froze on the surface as a layer of frost.
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: gunwharfman on 14:47:38, 06/11/20
I've noticed inside sweat most when I wear my Paramo Alta 2, so I don't wear it these days. For me, it's all about 'thin' layers, and I always try to start off cool and wear as little as possible to start. After I short while I'll know if I need to add another layer or not, usually not in my experience.

Today on my run, for example, I wore my bamboo baselayer and my thin wind jacket, (it was sunny but I felt cold) but within a half kilometre, I took my wind jacket off and it stayed off.
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: jimbob on 15:13:29, 06/11/20
Fir the dog my friend who always walks with her dog and she carries a silver blanket thing and puts a opened up microfibre bag liner on top of that and has a cheapo quilt for the dog to snuggle under, which it dies. However her most important addition fir the dog is a cloth covered hot water bottle for the very cold nights. The dog seems to love it. She has managed a summer PW, a winter PW an autumn C2C and various popular Scottish walks with her collie.
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 18:38:34, 06/11/20
I don't have a solution but I can sympathise.  Last winter the moisture wicked through to my outer layer and then froze on the surface as a layer of frost.
I had ice forming on the outside of my gloves, my shirt sleeves, shoulders and hat when ascending Ben Wyvis on a clear, still, very cold winter day. For the ascent I had only a base layer and shirt on my torso, but still ran quite warm. Once the climbing had stopped, my temperature quickly dropped and a couple more layers were needed pronto.
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: Sevenup on 18:39:09, 06/11/20
I've noticed inside sweat most when I wear my Paramo Alta 2, so I don't wear it these days. For me, it's all about 'thin' layers, and I always try to start off cool and wear as little as possible to start. After I short while I'll know if I need to add another layer or not, usually not in my experience.

Today on my run, for example, I wore my bamboo baselayer and my thin wind jacket, (it was sunny but I felt cold) but within a half kilometre, I took my wind jacket off and it stayed off.
I have tops from paramo and highlander but both of them have the drawback that they don’t dry easily when wet. Paramo is fine for a day up a Munro when I can take it off back at the car and replace it with dry kit. The Highlander smock has a fleece liner and is ideal for very cold dry days. It too doesn’t dry well. Neither are great once wet and needing to dry when it’s cold. The Alpkit Morphosis jacket has a grid fleece front and back but nothing under the arms or down the side seams. If the Morphosis had pit zips and front zips for ventilation it would be closer to ideal. I could probably wear it next to my skin. It’s windproof, the fleece, thin as it is, would absorb sweat and it packs up very small and is light. It’s not waterproof and doesn’t breathe very well. I’m also not too sure how warm it would turn out once it was saturated inside.


Jim Bob, I’ll give these ideas a whirl. I had a survival foil sleeping bag with me but didn’t think to use it! I’ve got plenty of foil blankets unused that will do.
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: Dread on 09:40:20, 07/11/20
I also walk hot and sympathise. Like GWM I start very light, often just a t shirt even at this time of year. I aim to feel a bit chilly because I know that I will warm up when I get going. If I don't warm sufficiently I add a thin fleece and/or occasionally a lightweight puffy. I don't  wear thick coats because I know I'll sweat. It's far more pleasant to throw something on because you're chilly than have to take stuff off as the sweat is cooling on your skin.
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: NeilC on 09:47:47, 10/11/20
I get hot and sweaty.


AFAIK there is no technical solution. Obviously use wicking clothing and breathable outer shells etc but it mostly comes down to getting too warm, and so reducing insulation and maximising ventilation is the key. I prefer to stay on the chilly side of things when going uphill rather than get soaked in sweat. Experimenting with baselayers and combination of them with windproofs of softshells etc can help somewhat. From now until spring I generally go with light baselayer under a Paramo with all vents open but everyone is different.


By far the biggest improvement for me has been losing weight.
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: Sevenup on 09:59:10, 10/11/20
I get hot and sweaty.


AFAIK there is no technical solution.....

By far the biggest improvement for me has been losing weight.


There’s no doubt that’s my main target. 9lbs down since end of lockdown. Goodness knows how many to go. I invested in the Rab Alpine VR jacket to help manage my heat and I’m thinking of trying out a couple of running tops instead of my normal base layers. There’s no doubt that I need to wear less and WEIGH less
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: gunwharfman on 10:58:41, 10/11/20
I agree with NeilC, experimentation is the key, the problem and the solution is unique to each individual.
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: NeilC on 17:41:19, 11/11/20

There’s no doubt that’s my main target. 9lbs down since end of lockdown. Goodness knows how many to go. I invested in the Rab Alpine VR jacket to help manage my heat and I’m thinking of trying out a couple of running tops instead of my normal base layers. There’s no doubt that I need to wear less and WEIGH less


Ha ha - join the club. I've lost a stone that I put on. Getting to a healthy weight make a huge difference to sweating IME and it's cheaper than new kit.


You're carrying around a load of insulation that you cannot take off, so it reduces the flexibility of any clothing system you put on top of it.
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: Booga on 14:50:47, 17/11/20
I get really hot when exercising then feel the cold when I'm not. I have an outer jacket with armpit vents which I find helps with airflow through the upper body clothing. And as a lot of heat is lost through the head I have experimented with wearing a headband to keep my ears warm instead of a full on wooly hat. Obviously the rest of your head feels colder but it's worth experimenting with.
I had a couple of merino base layers but I also found they just don't dry in cold temperatures and I'm left with cold wet material once I've stopped walking. I've had them hanging up in a bothy overnight and they were still soggy in the morning!  :'(
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: ninthace on 15:05:07, 17/11/20
I get really hot when exercising then feel the cold when I'm not. I have an outer jacket with armpit vents which I find helps with airflow through the upper body clothing. And as a lot of heat is lost through the head I have experimented with wearing a headband to keep my ears warm instead of a full on wooly hat. Obviously the rest of your head feels colder but it's worth experimenting with.
I had a couple of merino base layers but I also found they just don't dry in cold temperatures and I'm left with cold wet material once I've stopped walking. I've had them hanging up in a bothy overnight and they were still soggy in the morning!  :'(
I'm afraid the heat loss through the head thing is actually a bit of a myth.  About 7% of heat is lost through the head which is roughly equivalent to its surface area in repect to the rest of the body.
https://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/11/02/head-cover-cold (https://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/11/02/head-cover-cold)
https://www.livescience.com/34411-body-heat-loss-head.html (https://www.livescience.com/34411-body-heat-loss-head.html)
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: jimbob on 15:24:42, 17/11/20
Mmm. There are many more up to date studies on this matter than that document from 2008.

It appears that in most recent studies the head does in fact lose more heat than the rest of the body, put down to the simple fact that it is not insulated either by the same amount of subcutaneous fat or clothing, or in old gits like me, by baldness. However wearing a hat, or even having a decently full head of hair adds hugely to lack of heat loss.
Faces are rarely covered at all.

When my wife was undergoing chemo she was given an NHS leaflet in which she was warned to keep her head wrapped up outside, not for looks but because she could suffer from the cold. She now understands why I have so many beanies all over the place.
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: ninthace on 15:48:29, 17/11/20
Mmm. There are many more up to date studies on this matter than that document from 2008.

It appears that in most recent studies the head does in fact lose more heat than the rest of the body, put down to the simple fact that it is not insulated either by the same amount of subcutaneous fat or clothing, or in old gits like me, by baldness. However wearing a hat, or even having a decently full head of hair adds hugely to lack of heat loss.
Faces are rarely covered at all.

When my wife was undergoing chemo she was given an NHS leaflet in which she was warned to keep her head wrapped up outside, not for looks but because she could suffer from the cold. She now understands why I have so many beanies all over the place.
  A cursory search did not turn up the studies you refer to but I did not dig deep.
It might be better to say that the head loses more heat in proportion rather than you lose more heat from your head than the rest of the body and obviously if it is uninsulated.......... 
Any part of the body loses more heat when it is not insulated.

https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/features/do-we-really-lose-most-of-our-heat-through-our-heads (https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/features/do-we-really-lose-most-of-our-heat-through-our-heads)
http://factmyth.com/factoids/you-lose-most-of-your-body-heat-through-your-head/ (http://factmyth.com/factoids/you-lose-most-of-your-body-heat-through-your-head/)
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: jimbob on 17:28:40, 17/11/20
OK Ninthace I'll say it your better way.
Though if the male body was completely naked and bald more heat would be lost above the shoulders by percentage of body area than any other equivalent part of the body due to the lace of subcutaneous fat. When clothed and with no headwear that percentage increases to a higher percentage. However, you have told me how to say it, so that's what I will agree to do. 
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: BuzyG on 23:59:24, 17/11/20
Having a full head of hair is great for not needing a hat in summer to protect my scalp and keep it cool.  Not so good in colder months as it is wet from sweat within 10 mins of starting most walks. After that the beanie is on and off to help regulate my temperature.  On balance though I'll keep my hair.

After five years back walking regularly in all conditions, I think I have the upper layers sorted now.  It's the legs where I'm still experimenting.  I have tried every thing from beach shorts to salopettes, but it's knowing when to where what.  There are a number of times I have got the leggings wrong and either been soaked through and too cold or over heated and wet with sweat from the waist down.
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: pauldawes on 13:53:18, 18/11/20


After five years back walking regularly in all conditions, I think I have the upper layers sorted now.  It's the legs where I'm still experimenting.  I have tried every thing from beach shorts to salopettes, but it's knowing when to where what.  There are a number of times I have got the leggings wrong and either been soaked through and too cold or over heated and wet with sweat from the waist down.


Never quite understood just how a fair number of walkers spend a lot more thought/ expense on torso than legs...it’s not that unusual, for example, to see some in an expensive jacket wearing jeans.
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: pdstsp on 17:41:21, 18/11/20
I know what you mean, but for me I don't seem to feel the cold on the bottom half so tend to walk in the same Berghaus trousers all year - if it gets really cold I will put a pair of overtrousers on, but I cannot remember the last time I needed to.  Even in horizontal hail my legs don't seem to suffer.


Edited to say - as a member of the follicly challenged community I am rarely out without some form of head covering, and often several.
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: gunwharfman on 20:03:16, 18/11/20
Yes, like me. I now seem to have a head covering for all occasions, a sun hat, a hat to cover the ears for really cold days, a waterproof hat with a neck covering for when its wet and a cosey Beanie. I wore the Beanie today.

I've reached that point in my hiking and running career where I'm now over-equipped just too much choice.
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: ninthace on 20:26:09, 18/11/20
Tilley ......... nuff said  O0
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: Sevenup on 20:38:11, 18/11/20
I’ve got different hats for different seasons. I’ve got some cheap, frequently washed, foldable Mountain Warehouse skip caps for outside summer and winter. For summer I’ve got a cheap (sale) OR floppy cricketer style hat with a wide brim and for when it’s really cold I have a Tilley tweed style wide brim hat. As a winter standby I have a towed skip cap bought in a sale at TKMaxx made with a similar material to the Tilley. The trouble is that our winters are now so mild that I hardly wear the latter pair. I used to go mountain biking at Aviemore the week before English school holiday week in October. When we crossed Drumochter on the Friday night it was usually -8c and day time temperatures rarely rose above 2c. Today it’s 12c here in November.
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: NeilC on 21:13:04, 18/11/20
  A cursory search did not turn up the studies you refer to but I did not dig deep.
It might be better to say that the head loses more heat in proportion rather than you lose more heat from your head than the rest of the body and obviously if it is uninsulated.......... 
Any part of the body loses more heat when it is not insulated.

https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/features/do-we-really-lose-most-of-our-heat-through-our-heads (https://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/features/do-we-really-lose-most-of-our-heat-through-our-heads)
http://factmyth.com/factoids/you-lose-most-of-your-body-heat-through-your-head/ (http://factmyth.com/factoids/you-lose-most-of-your-body-heat-through-your-head/)


More Or Less did a programme on this topic: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csz3sd

Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: BuzyG on 11:40:50, 19/11/20
That was interesting to listen to.  As a surfer I used to wear a vest with a hood, even in the summer, when I was wearing a thin shorty wet suit.  I was no fashion item but it meant I could surf for 6-7 hours in a day without getting too cold.  I even surfed in January UK temps in just that vest and hood, just once.  I lasted 40 mins before I got out.


The Point made in the radio broadcast is very relevant here. Once you get out of the cold your capillaries start to open up again and draw warm blood away from your core to the surface of the skin.  This leads to secondary cooling and hypothermia can set in really quickly, after you get out of the cold, if you don't do something about it.  I used to jog up and down the beach for as long as it took to warm through. Not so simple if you are exhausted.
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: forgotmyoldpassword on 21:54:58, 19/11/20
Also why gilets are so good to regulate temperature, as you're using the vasodialation effect to cool your arms down which reverses when you're on the flat and start to cool a little.
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: tillster on 10:11:23, 23/11/20
I too sweat like a mofo and - while I've not found a perfect solution to the problem - I've settled on a skin-fit merino baselayer with a Rab Vapur Rise light on top is pretty good at getting some of the moisture away from the skin. Prob comes when you stop and you coo down, then it gets cold, and fast.


Merino helps a bit in that regard but not enough IME and I'll often have two of those base layers to allow for a swap whenever I take a longer break.
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: Sevenup on 10:30:02, 23/11/20
I’m playing about with this. I’ve bought a soft shell gilet which has been useful in the cold and dry. Rab VR kit looks good but I’m not convinced on the merino base layer. I’ve got some short sleeve Paramo directional base layers that are doing better at keeping me drier. I’ll mix these layers and see how they work. I can cope with being sweaty and carrying lots of options on day hikes (and I can have more in the car). It’s the multi day stuff with a full pack that’s really challenging. Cold, dry days create one set of issues but add rain to the game with a hard shell and it’s another set. Still, it’s keeping me occupied.
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: tillster on 10:36:54, 23/11/20
Fair points


My preference for the icebreaker stems less from its wicking than itsbheat-retention


But it's a cursed affliction, with no great solution
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: Sevenup on 10:42:55, 23/11/20
I’m having happier results with merino (Isobaa are working for me as a bit lighter than my icebreaker) using them when I stop at night. They don’t take up much room and really work as a base layer. I have a couple of hoody tops that are useful for ears being warm too https://www.isobaa.com/collections/mens-long-sleeve-tops/products/mens-merino-200-zip-neck-hoodie-blue (https://www.isobaa.com/collections/mens-long-sleeve-tops/products/mens-merino-200-zip-neck-hoodie-blue)


Finer made than the icebreakers I own
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: NeilC on 13:46:37, 26/11/20
When I looked more deeply into how stuff like Goretex really works, as opposed to the misleading infographic they use on adverts, I was quite surprised. This idea that vapor just passes through little holes that rain can't get through is not at all accurate.


What really happens is your sweat adsorbs into the inner PU layer and diffuses into it until some of it gets to the actual PTFE layer. At this point it can evaporate through the PTFE mesh.


The relevance of this is that in reality, the fabric has sweat soaking into it, which must evaporate to leave the jacket. In UK weather the relative humidity (RH) is often very high. Today in Yeovil for example, it's 95%. Evaporation is very low indeed at that kind of humidity.


And that's the humidity of open air. Humidity at the surface of a rain-soaked piece of cloth will be higher.  Admittedly the heat from your body will drive evaporation but not much if you're well insulated and the surface of the jacket is being cooled by weather.


I just cannot see how any clothing technology can deal with it.
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: Sevenup on 14:01:48, 26/11/20
Neil, you’re opening up a whole new can of worms. I’m still trying to sort out base layers.

 
 I had an interesting session this morning with a Quechua merino base layer under a Sherpa merino jumper (a bit like this with buttons instead of a zip   https://www.sherpaadventuregear.co.uk/item/sherpa-adventure-gear/kangtega-quarter-zip-sweater/17AJ (https://www.sherpaadventuregear.co.uk/item/sherpa-adventure-gear/kangtega-quarter-zip-sweater/17AJ)   ) on the Cobbler. Although I eventually took the heavier top off, I didn’t get as hot and sweaty as I would have done wearing synthetics. The top layer allowed much more cool air through than synthetic/ fleece tops would have done. I didn’t need a rain jacket since it was more smir than rain and water droplets formed on the outside of the jumper. A rain jacket would have been ‘boil in the bag’.  
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: gunwharfman on 18:59:54, 26/11/20
I think I practiced what I preach today, the air felt damp, there was a litle bit of very light drizzle at the start, it was overcast and I thought it was rather cold. There was no air movement at all. I decided to wear my cheap (£14.99 when I bought it) single skin Decathlon wind jacket, it's not waterproof but its really effective at what it's designed for. In running terms it's my most used article of clothing.

I wore my Brynge 'string vest' and my long-sleeved bamboo base layer underneath. Within a mile, I knew that my wind jacket was building up its usual perspiration wetness on the inside so I did a full unzip and ran another mile but I could feel the wetness inside my sleeves, the inside of my jacket had dried but not inside my sleeves.

Sometimes I just take the jacket off and tuck it under my belt for the whole of my run but today, without stopping I just took it off, turned it inside out, put it on again and kept running. That did the trick, the whole jacket and the sleeves dried in about a minute. About a mile later, I just turned it inside out again, put it back on and carried on. I soon came to a steepish hill, so I just took the jacket off (I knew how hot and sweaty I would be) and slowly and deliberately plodded on to the top and by then I knew I would keep the jacket off for the rest of my run, I was steaming!

I'd rather do these easy procedures 2 - 3 times on a 4-5 mile run than spend out lots of money on a so-called 'breathable' jacket, for me, it's just not worth it. The ones that testers claim are 'breathable' (I don't believe it!) seem to be over £100 but to me, £50 would be too much to pay as well.

I would go far to suggest that when hiking and I am hot and sweaty the inside wetness is often more of a problem to me than the wetness on the outside, that was definitely the case when I used to use my Paramo Alta 2.
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: NeilC on 23:10:05, 26/11/20
Neil, you’re opening up a whole new can of worms. I’m still trying to sort out base layers.

 
 I had an interesting session this morning with a Quechua merino base layer under a Sherpa merino jumper (a bit like this with buttons instead of a zip  https://www.sherpaadventuregear.co.uk/item/sherpa-adventure-gear/kangtega-quarter-zip-sweater/17AJ (https://www.sherpaadventuregear.co.uk/item/sherpa-adventure-gear/kangtega-quarter-zip-sweater/17AJ)  ) on the Cobbler. Although I eventually took the heavier top off, I didn’t get as hot and sweaty as I would have done wearing synthetics. The top layer allowed much more cool air through than synthetic/ fleece tops would have done. I didn’t need a rain jacket since it was more smir than rain and water droplets formed on the outside of the jumper. A rain jacket would have been ‘boil in the bag’.  


That would be because somehow I posted that into the wrong thread lol!
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: Sevenup on 23:10:42, 26/11/20

That would be because somehow I posted that into the wrong thread lol!
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: gunwharfman on 09:54:06, 27/11/20
Sorry, I wasn't able to finish my point, got interrupted. So what is easy for me, when I run, is not easy when I hike. With a rucksack on my back, I just can't keep taking my rucksack off and on, so how to solve internal wetness? I've not come up with an answer to that one yet! I may never of course?
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: BuzyG on 10:17:01, 27/11/20
Sorry, I wasn't able to finish my point, got interrupted. So what is easy for me, when I run, is not easy when I hike. With a rucksack on my back, I just can't keep taking my rucksack off and on, so how to solve internal wetness? I've not come up with an answer to that one yet! I may never of course?


I find it pretty easy to take my ruck sack off and on whilst on the move and change my top layers. I do it a lot. Guess it depends a bit on what is in your ruck sack and how you arrange the contents. I don't carry a tent for example.
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: gunwharfman on 11:43:58, 27/11/20
I could do it I suppose but I know from experience that to get my rucksack off my back efficiently and successfully I need to practice. When I've tried it before, unclip chest strap, loosen left shoulder strap, loosen right shoulder strap, unclip waist strap, if I get it wrong, usually because I forget to unclip the chest strap first, I can end up nearly garroting myself! Sometimes its also because I'm trying to charge my phone as I walk as well, the phone is one waist strap pocket, the battery in the other waist strap pocket and a connecting wire between them and I then forget that they have to be attended to first. So complicated!  :-[
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: BuzyG on 22:57:58, 27/11/20
It was interesting walking/jogging 8.5 miles in to Fur tor and back in the cool mist of the late afternoon.  Took me a couple of hours at full chat, but I was able to keep cool the entire route by taking my fleece and gloves off for the uphill sections.  As a result I needed far less fluid that I usually do on that route.

Have to say, I much prefer SW UK temperatures in the winter months.
Title: Re: Running ‘hot’ in cool weather
Post by: Bman1 on 22:09:17, 29/12/20
I'm a 'Sweaty Betty' too.
I have found the Nike Dri-Fit running T's/long sleeves work well, dry quickly when wet, and don't get too smelly. I have also found the standard Helly Hansen tops work well too.
Note, I am not a 'fashion victim' and so wouldn't normally buy on names, but have found these to work much better than other synthetic tops.