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Main Boards => General Walking Discussion => Topic started by: MarkT on 08:03:34, 16/10/20

Title: Slow Maps
Post by: MarkT on 08:03:34, 16/10/20
I saw an article on the news this morning regards a new scheme to produce a new/different kind of map for walkers. The idea being is to try and show the best/safest "walking" routes linking Britain's main towns and they are looking for volunteers.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54562137


An interesting idea which I am sure will benefit a lot of people and hopefully prevent us following some so called paths which are no longer there, over grown with shrubbery or take you across dangerous roads.


There is a link at the bottom of the article for those who are interested.
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: cornwallcoastpathdweller on 08:51:56, 16/10/20
I saw an article on the news this morning regards a new scheme to produce a new/different kind of map for walkers. The idea being is to try and show the best/safest "walking" routes linking Britain's main towns and they are looking for volunteers.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54562137 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54562137)


An interesting idea which I am sure will benefit a lot of people and hopefully prevent us following some so called paths which are no longer there, over grown with shrubbery or take you across dangerous roads.


There is a link at the bottom of the article for those who are interested.


Just found this as well.  Looks like a fantastic idea to me, shall be having a good look through the site over the weekend. 
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: sussamb on 10:24:25, 16/10/20
Signed up to help  O0
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: BuzyG on 10:49:10, 16/10/20
Great idea, I was surprised how difficult it was to find safe routes out of Saltash to the surrounding villages and towns when I tried.  A number of times I've had to walk along A roads, actually on the tarmac or very close along side on a thin verge.  That worked during lock down, but those routes are now once again too dangerous, due to traffic.  I'll have a proper read over the weekend. O0
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: jimbob on 10:55:34, 16/10/20
Great idea. I have signed up.
 O0
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: ninthace on 12:32:57, 16/10/20
I had a read of the site and I saw the story on the TV.  It is an interesting intellectual exercise but I think it has a limited practical application.  It is mapping journeys very few people would want to undertake, especially those of us that live in rural areas.
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: pdstsp on 13:14:17, 16/10/20
I think the idea is that more of us might if it was viable.  I've signed up.


As to the rural dwellers - a quick google suggests 80% of us live in towns and cities.
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: shortwalker on 13:27:42, 16/10/20
Sounds a great idea to me. Walking from one town/village to another, makes sense after all it was how footpaths started. For someone like me being able to get a train or bus to one town, walk to another and get a train bus back is great.


Know I know I could do it now, but having a route that has recently been walked as a guide will make it so much easier.


Simple example near me one of the routes I had planned to walk the other week went across the canal. Unfortunately the canal bridge is now in not in use (permanently in the open position) I could have gone down the next footpath, but have a guess the same thing. I know both bridges are not in use because I frequently walk the canal but if I hadn't that would have been a good mile+ wasted. (and for someone like me a mile is a long way)   
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: ninthace on 13:38:25, 16/10/20
How far is the average member of the public prepared to walk?  Is there a worthwhile destination within that distance?  How do they  get back?  Using public transport is not recommended at present so they will have to walk back which reduces the range by half until such time recreational use of PT is encouraged. Then we have the issue of ground conditions, crossing obstacles and livestock.
A walk to my local town would be at least a 25 mile round trip, probably more.  I have no reason to go there except to shop.  The best walks in my area are not village to village but circular walks, often not involving conurbations.
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: Little Foot on 14:21:58, 16/10/20
I’m keen on any thing that helps people get out there and enjoy our countryside, but, shouldn’t the focus be on making those problematic paths passable? I know there will be some that are too steep or too rocky for people, so it is good that walkers can be made aware of this, but a PROW that is too dense of vegetation or muddy? These pass should be made accessible and I would rather the councils clamp down on that so it’s much easier for everyone to walk on paths they are entitled to be on. Signage should be a lot clearer too.


Even though it sounds like I am moaning, I actually think this project sounds very interesting and I will be keeping my eye on it for future trips. Hopefully it will help me avoid routes with stiles, when carrying a massive backpack.  ;D
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: pdstsp on 14:37:12, 16/10/20
I’m keen on any thing that helps people get out there and enjoy our countryside, but, shouldn’t the focus be on making those problematic paths passable? I know there will be some that are too steep or too rocky for people, so it is good that walkers can be made aware of this, but a PROW that is too dense of vegetation or muddy? These pass should be made accessible and I would rather the councils clamp down on that so it’s much easier for everyone to walk on paths they are entitled to be on. Signage should be a lot clearer too.



That's a good point, but there seems no reason why these things are mutually exclusive - in assessing a route, badly maintained paths can be communicated to the local council.  Of course whether they do anything is a different matter.


[/size]How far is the average member of the public prepared to walk?  Is there a worthwhile destination within that distance?  How do they  get back?  Using public transport is not recommended at present so they will have to walk back which reduces the range by half until such time recreational use of PT is encouraged. Then we have the issue of ground conditions, crossing obstacles and livestock.
A walk to my local town would be at least a 25 mile round trip, probably more.  I have no reason to go there except to shop.  The best walks in my area are not village to village but circular walks, often not involving conurbations.


How far - I don't know, but plenty of people round here were out during lockdown pounding the pavements and fields, so there seemed to be a willingness to have a go.
Worthwhile destination - very subjective - for some this may be a look round a nearby town, or to visit a cafe.  I often walk locally when the forecast is crappy for the hills on a weekend.
Public transport - presumably the project is hoping one day we might be able to get back on the bus?
Ground conditions etc - this is what the project is designed to assess - safe and walkable and pleasant.  And it may identify issues with access too.
Your local walks - you live in the country, many don't.


I don't see a down side to this and I hope it gains traction.
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: Andies on 14:49:54, 16/10/20
Anything that increases awareness should be a good thing.
That said I have often found that there is no sensible "slow route" available in the existing ROW network. Should we therefore be looking for that logical route that maybe once existed but didn't find it's way onto the definitive map.
Where's BWW?

   


Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: ninthace on 15:47:26, 16/10/20

I don't see a down side to this and I hope it gains traction.
  Here is one.  The current enthusiasm for the project is a spin off from the restrictions on movement during the pandemic.  Already I have noticed that as freedom of movement has increased, the enthusiasm for walking for the sake of walking among the public at large has decreased. There is a real possibility that money will end up being spent establishing and maintaining a network of paths, many of which will be little trafficked because they do not lead anywhere anyone wants to go and, in so doing, the public funds available to spend maintaining other more worthwhile routes such as the current network of LDPs, will be reduced.
For me, it remains an interesting exercise, something anyone with a map could while away a few hours doing if they had the inclination.
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: jimbob on 15:57:23, 16/10/20
Hi Ninthace, I know you like finding arguments befitting Devils Advocates, but correct me if I have totally missed the point. (And, since it is you, ;D even if I haven't) . I thought reading or misreading, you tell me, that they actually wanted feet on ground and not just eyes on maps whiling away dreamy hours.
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: pdstsp on 16:21:41, 16/10/20
Ninthace - you state a lot of stuff in there as if it is fact. 


You state you have noticed a drop off in walking since lockdown ended, however, by your own admission you are rural based while this project is linking urban areas - what evidence have you that walking in urban areas has dropped off?  I can say that in my urban area this is certainly not the case.


You state that money will be spent establishing and maintaining a network of paths which nobody will use.  How do you know this?  On what basis will money be spent, if there is nobody using or wanting to use the paths.  And, if the exercise identifies paths that may be of more interest to walkers, the money may be well spent. 


You also say that theses paths will go where nobody wants to go, but, again, how do you know nobody wants to go there until you let people know there is a walking route available which may be of interest?


You're not a member of the CLA trying to deny us all access are you?



Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: shortwalker on 16:42:46, 16/10/20
  Here is one.  The current enthusiasm for the project is a spin off from the restrictions on movement during the pandemic.  Already I have noticed that as freedom of movement has increased, the enthusiasm for walking for the sake of walking among the public at large has decreased. There is a real possibility that money will end up being spent establishing and maintaining a network of paths, many of which will be little trafficked because they do not lead anywhere anyone wants to go and, in so doing, the public funds available to spend maintaining other more worthwhile routes such as the current network of LDPs, will be reduced.
For me, it remains an interesting exercise, something anyone with a map could while away a few hours doing if they had the inclination.


Clearly you haven't read what the intention is. It is not too create a whole load of new "paths" but link up existing ones. Why do you say nobody wants to do them? You may not want to but others might.


It clearly isn't primarily aimed at those who already use OS maps etc to plot routes, but more at people who use routes already plotted out for them.


I really don't see a downside.


Surely the more people we can encourage to walk the better it will be for all of us?
   
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: ninthace on 16:51:02, 16/10/20
pdstp - Please do not let your dislike of me blind you to rational discussion.  Words like "if" and "possibiity" were used in my reply. The idea seems to be to get the pavement bound masses into the countryside - a rural opinion is a valid one.  Also, if you consider both the positive and negative elements of a proposal at an early stage, you are better positioned to achieve the outcome you desirs.  This means seeing the nettles as well as the roses.
In this case, the network, will need, proposing (done), exploring (current stage), documenting, bringing into being (funding and possible legislation) and ongoing maintenance (physical, documentation (routes, closures etc) and publicity).  If you want to get a slight feel for what is involved, just look at the SWCP website than enlarge it to a national network.
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: ninthace on 16:59:27, 16/10/20

Clearly you haven't read what the intention is. It is not too create a whole load of new "paths" but link up existing ones. Why do you say nobody wants to do them? You may not want to but others might.


It clearly isn't primarily aimed at those who already use OS maps etc to plot routes, but more at people who use routes already plotted out for them.


I really don't see a downside.


Surely the more people we can encourage to walk the better it will be for all of us?
 
You may be right but go on to the ViewRanger and the OS websites and have a look at the pattern and characteristics of the routes on there.  Look in particular for routes that go from conurbation to conurbation using footpaths.  There aren't many,  this is probably because it is not a popular pattern of walking.  There is already nothing stopping people doing what the Slow Maps people propose - anyone who can read a map can do it.  What is new as far as i can see is formalising and publicising these routes in some way and that brings an expectation of delivery and maintenance.
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: shortwalker on 17:23:39, 16/10/20
You may be right but go on to the ViewRanger and the OS websites and have a look at the pattern and characteristics of the routes on there.  Look in particular for routes that go from conurbation to conurbation using footpaths.  There aren't many,  this is probably because it is not a popular pattern of walking.  There is already nothing stopping people doing what the Slow Maps people propose - anyone who can read a map can do it.  What is new as far as i can see is formalising and publicising these routes in some way and that brings an expectation of delivery and maintenance.


And the problem with that, is?
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: WhitstableDave on 17:23:58, 16/10/20
I've read the article, watched the report on BBC News and visited the website. Each to their own, but I'm not enthusiastic enough to get involved.

Regarding path maintenance: As I write, I'm in dispute with Kent County Council at Ombudsman level because of their failure to fulfil their obligations - I'm quite proactive in that regard. Should a system of 'Slow Paths' come into being, then I assume these would be given a higher-than-average priority - perhaps similar to that of 'Promoted Paths' - in the triage system that prioritises path maintenance. This could have the effect of allowing lower priority rights-of-way to become even more neglected in an already overworked and underfunded system.

The perceived need for Slow Maps (seems to me) to be based largely on the total uselessness of Google's provision for walking routes. I've just asked Google to show me the best walking route between Whitstable and Faversham, about 10 miles away. Google completely ignored the blindingly obvious (to anyone who glances at an OS map) 'diamond' Saxon Shore Way route along the coast between the two towns, instead recommending a dangerous inland route along roads with blind bends and no footpath.

While many towns and other urban areas can be easily linked by 'recommended' walking routes, others cannot. For example, walking the 7 miles or so safely between Herne Bay and Canterbury on existing PRoWs and avoiding busy roads requires a much lengthier and very convoluted route. This could be done of course, but waymarking the route would involve a significant cost.

Finally (and perhaps selfishly!), I'm not interested in getting other people out walking - I'll leave that to them. I walk solo or with my immediate family. I've noticed a significant increase in the number of walkers, runners and cyclists in recent times, many of whom require me to take avoiding action if I'm to stay a sensible distance from them, because they don't seem too bothered. I'd be happy to return to the good old days when I'd hardly see another soul when I'm out and about...  ;)


Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: pdstsp on 17:25:25, 16/10/20
Ninthace - I have no personal dislike of you as I have never met you.  I have found some of your comments on this forum a little unpleasant but that is all.  However, I do object to you suggesting I am not rational, as I think my questions of your approach to the suggestion which lies at the heart of this thread are valid.  You have stated things as if they are fact, when they are opinion. 


Anyway, moving on..


As far as I can see, this current project is designed to try to link urban places by use of paths and rights of way etc, which may exist on a map - I have not seen any mention of new paths being developed, merely an attempt to use the access network better.  Having said that, if a useful path could develop on an underused right of way, surely this is a good thing. And within walking distance for many millions of people, not just those who live in national parks etc.  In terms of cash - if the paths pass over privately owned land it is the landowners obligation to ensure they are clear, if I remember correctly.



Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: GnP on 17:29:05, 16/10/20
Edit : sorry my daughter was talking about school today and I was side tracked..I missed a couple of sentences out.. :o


People hearing about this idea may start looking at maps where they never previously did , they  might see their town linked up with a village and go for it , when they realise they do not have to walk along main roads to get there. I`m sure it would need plenty of publicity and the cost of pushing it so more people take the idea on board might be a tad high , but Ordnance Survey have agreed to add the routes to its online data base and that is very encouraging .

Nothing ventured , nothing gained. Have people really started drifting that much back into their old life styles pre` March. ?  I do hope not and the roads are still much quieter than they were , so maybe not . Now with further lockdowns being more likely , I see a really long term change in peoples behaviour .

Travel abroad is much less attractive now and so many other things are changing , so why not lets walk to the next town if we have never done it before .
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: ninthace on 17:29:56, 16/10/20

And the problem with that, is?
It needs a start up and ongoing budget.  Paths are a Local Authority matter and they have no cash.  It is also a national idea which requires LAs to work together. Who is going to document and publish the routes?  Where do their funds come from?  etc etc
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: shortwalker on 17:37:05, 16/10/20
It needs a start up and ongoing budget.  Paths are a Local Authority matter and they have no cash.  It is also a national idea which requires LAs to work together. Who is going to document and publish the routes?  Where do their funds come from?  etc etc


So we don't do give it a try?


As I said earlier if you took the trouble to actually read up on it, you may have a better idea.



Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: ninthace on 17:45:28, 16/10/20

So we don't do give it a try?


As I said earlier if you took the trouble to actually read up on it, you may have a better idea.
I know it involves existing paths! But if that was just it, there would be no need to call for volunteers to walk and report on all the routes.  There is more to it than you seem to realise. 
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: shortwalker on 17:46:21, 16/10/20
I've read the article, watched the report on BBC News and visited the website. Each to their own, but I'm not enthusiastic enough to get involved.

Regarding path maintenance: As I write, I'm in dispute with Kent County Council at Ombudsman level because of their failure to fulfil their obligations - I'm quite proactive in that regard. Should a system of 'Slow Paths' come into being, then I assume these would be given a higher-than-average priority - perhaps similar to that of 'Promoted Paths' - in the triage system that prioritises path maintenance. This could have the effect of allowing lower priority rights-of-way to become even more neglected in an already overworked and underfunded system.

The perceived need for Slow Maps (seems to me) to be based largely on the total uselessness of Google's provision for walking routes. I've just asked Google to show me the best walking route between Whitstable and Faversham, about 10 miles away. Google completely ignored the blindingly obvious (to anyone who glances at an OS map) 'diamond' Saxon Shore Way route along the coast between the two towns, instead recommending a dangerous inland route along roads with blind bends and no footpath.

While many towns and other urban areas can be easily linked by 'recommended' walking routes, others cannot. For example, walking the 7 miles or so safely between Herne Bay and Canterbury on existing PRoWs and avoiding busy roads requires a much lengthier and very convoluted route. This could be done of course, but waymarking the route would involve a significant cost.

Finally (and perhaps selfishly!), I'm not interested in getting other people out walking - I'll leave that to them. I walk solo or with my immediate family. I've noticed a significant increase in the number of walkers, runners and cyclists in recent times, many of whom require me to take avoiding action if I'm to stay a sensible distance from them, because they don't seem too bothered. I'd be happy to return to the good old days when I'd hardly see another soul when I'm out and about...  ;)


No perhaps about it, that is a selfish stance to take. It is also doesn't help your current dispute. The more people walking in the countryside the more councils are likely to listen to walkers.


The argument goes; "Mr Whistable Dave, you want us to spend money maintaining a path that from what we can see, only you and a few others use?"


Alternatively it could go: "Mr Whistable Dave, you want us to spend money maintaining a path that from what we can see, is frequently used by many walkers"


Which one is more likely to get funding? 


In the current climate legal obligations, are not as clear cut.
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: pdstsp on 17:46:41, 16/10/20
The article makes no mention of large organisations, indeed it is a voluntary process at the moment, and states that it uses mostly existing paths - it merely seeks to ensure that these are truly walkable.  As far as publishing - OS have stated that they are behind the idea.  However, it is also a campaigning tool, potentially, but what on earth is wrong with that if it opens up more countryside which people have indicated that they would use?  Given the cash that is paid to ministers mates to provide poor quality IT solutions, the cost would be a drop in the ocean.
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: shortwalker on 17:50:09, 16/10/20
I know it involves existing paths! But if that was just it, there would be no need to call for volunteers to walk and report on all the routes.  There is more to it than you seem to realise.


Would you clear to explain that, in a bit more detail? because clearly I don't realise what is involved.





Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: GnP on 18:08:26, 16/10/20
A good idea doesn`t always need a detailed plan before it morphs into something really tangible and coherent . Sometimes a good idea is just that .


I can see the merits in it and wouldn`t it be great if within the next few years more people started talking about what village or town they intend walking to next week. Instead of which shopping centre they are going to drive to next and buy yet more tat .
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: ninthace on 18:10:40, 16/10/20

Would you clear to explain that, in a bit more detail? because clearly I don't realise what is involved.
The paths already exist but they have never been presented as a countrywide point to point network.  This network has to be put together from the feedback from the volunteers, redrawn and adjusted as necessary depending on their reports.  The paths then have to be assembled on a website so people can find and select routes.  The routes themselves have to be described and doucumented as well as links to public transport so people can get back to their starting points,  Downstream the paths have to be maintained (either directly or indirectly via interaction with the landowners).  Paths are living things and can become impassable for a variety reasons so temporary closures and diversions will have to be published.  And so on.
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: WhitstableDave on 18:25:21, 16/10/20
No perhaps about it, that is a selfish stance to take. It is also doesn't help your current dispute. The more people walking in the countryside the more councils are likely to listen to walkers.

The argument goes; "Mr Whistable Dave, you want us to spend money maintaining a path that from what we can see, only you and a few others use?"

Alternatively it could go: "Mr Whistable Dave, you want us to spend money maintaining a path that from what we can see, is frequently used by many walkers"

Which one is more likely to get funding? 

In the current climate legal obligations, are not as clear cut.

Councils are not restrained by the lack of people walking in the countryside. They're restrained by a lack of funding. To demonstrate my selflessness, I'll happily vote for a party that promises to increase Council Tax substantially in order to better fund path maintenance. Perhaps we should organise a petition?

The Council's legal obligations are clear cut regarding my current dispute. The case I referred to is here:  Documenting the demise of another PRoW (http://www.walkingforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=40641.msg587551#msg587551). Kent County Council has a statutory duty to deal with my complaint (not just a reporting of a blocked path). The Local Government Ombudsman is involved and councils really don't like that. In this case, it's not about footfall, but about ensuring the council carries out its legal duty.

(Back to selfishness... I find it ironic that my reason for wishing there were fewer people using footpaths at the moment is because of the lack of consideration shown by so many 'new walkers' towards me and my desire to socially distance. In other words, my selfishness is a result of other people's selfishness!)

Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: shortwalker on 18:31:30, 16/10/20
The paths already exist but they have never been presented as a countrywide point to point network.  This network has to be put together from the feedback from the volunteers, redrawn and adjusted as necessary depending on their reports.  The paths then have to be assembled on a website so people can find and select routes.  The routes themselves have to be described and doucumented as well as links to public transport so people can get back to their starting points,  Downstream the paths have to be maintained (either directly or indirectly via interaction with the landowners).  Paths are living things and can become impassable for a variety reasons so temporary closures and diversions will have to be published.  And so on.


Well as I already new that (I do have a basic intelligence that lets me understand, that there is not much point in undertaking this venture without routes being publish (and surprisingly I also understand what will  need to be done, to get to that stage))


So I ask again, why is it more involved than you seem to think I and others are capable of understanding.

Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: ninthace on 18:45:15, 16/10/20

Well as I already new that (I do have a basic intelligence that lets me understand, that there is not much point in undertaking this venture without routes being publish (and surprisingly I also understand what will  need to be done, to get to that stage))


So I ask again, why is it more involved than you seem to think I and others are capable of understanding.
In that case I apologise and I have missed something.  Can please explain to me then what the estimated demand for Slow Maps is and how the things I have outlined are going to done?  Who is going to do the work and how it will be paid for both in the short and long term?
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: shortwalker on 19:04:40, 16/10/20
Councils are not restrained by the lack of people walking in the countryside. They're restrained by a lack of funding. To demonstrate my selflessness, I'll happily vote for a party that promises to increase Council Tax substantially in order to better fund path maintenance. Perhaps we should organise a petition?

The Council's legal obligations are clear cut regarding my current dispute. The case I referred to is here:  Documenting the demise of another PRoW (http://www.walkingforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=40641.msg587551#msg587551). Kent County Council has a statutory duty to deal with my complaint (not just a reporting of a blocked path). The Local Government Ombudsman is involved and councils really don't like that. In this case, it's not about footfall, but about ensuring the council carries out its legal duty.

(Back to selfishness... I find it ironic that my reason for wishing there were fewer people using footpaths at the moment is because of the lack of consideration shown by so many 'new walkers' towards me and my desire to socially distance. In other words, my selfishness is a result of other people's selfishness!) 
 


I am aware of council obligations. They also have a lot of other legal obligations that they do not fulfil, for various reasons. 


But you have to agree, that if more people had actually used the footpath you are in dispute over. It wouldn't have got in that state. So by default more people out walking can only be a good thing.


My contribution to keeping footpaths open, is a carry a pair of folding secateurs. And where I feel a footpath is being encroached on by brambles, nettles etc. I will cut it back. I do that because I accept that not everyone can or even wants to keep these paths open.











Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: shortwalker on 19:15:19, 16/10/20
In that case I apologise and I have missed something.  Can please explain to me then what the estimated demand for Slow Maps is and how the things I have outlined are going to done?  Who is going to do the work and how it will be paid for both in the short and long term?


Freely admit I have no idea of the actual demand (no more than you could assert that it is needed) Again if you read the questions and answers on sloways site it may answer your questions.


https://slowways.uk/frequently-asked-questions/


I freely admit I know no more than what they have put up on the website, but I really don't see a problem with it.


If it goes "bang" tomorrow what have we lost?
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: pdstsp on 19:18:50, 16/10/20


If it goes "bang" tomorrow what have we lost?


Surely this is the point? Crack on, I say.
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: Strider on 19:37:15, 16/10/20
Shortwalker makes very good points. Signed up.
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: cornwallcoastpathdweller on 20:43:22, 16/10/20
Well i've just signed up.


Anything that helps get people away from the tv, computer games, facebook or the pub is worthwhile in my opinion.


Im not bothered if the paths 'already exist' which they clearly do, the idea as i understand it is to encourage people to get out and about walking more, and given the proven physical and mental benifits then im all for that.


Looking simplistically, isnt a shorter city/town linking walk on existing paths (the object here), just a shorter version of an LDP which we all carp on about as part of this interest already?
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: WhitstableDave on 22:57:39, 16/10/20
...
But you have to agree, that if more people had actually used the footpath you are in dispute over. It wouldn't have got in that state. So by default more people out walking can only be a good thing.
...

Are you suggesting that if more people had actually used the footpath in question, it wouldn't have had a barrier of barbed wire, wooden poles, angle iron and rubble forming an impenetrable barrier at its entrance?
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: pauldawes on 06:12:22, 17/10/20
Are you suggesting that if more people had actually used the footpath in question, it wouldn't have had a barrier of barbed wire, wooden poles, angle iron and rubble forming an impenetrable barrier at its entrance?


Is that so unlikely a notion?


If more people tend to use a particular path, then there are more people moving stuff to get through, more complaints to local council if blocked, etc.



Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: pauldawes on 06:18:54, 17/10/20
In that case I apologise and I have missed something.  Can please explain to me then what the estimated demand for Slow Maps is and how the things I have outlined are going to done?  Who is going to do the work and how it will be paid for both in the short and long term?


Is it really necessary to estimate demand in advance?


It might be needed if site creator saw this as a commercial venture and needed to make money. But if it’s an enthusiast (for urban walking) seeking to help other potential enthusiasts...then it seems very reasonable to put it out there, and just see how many people use it.


The demand may well surprise.
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: Islandplodder on 06:43:55, 17/10/20
Why would you not want to walk to the next town or village? I remember it as a regular event when I was young. The pubs didn't have such an accurate knowledge of your date of birth as the local one, so we would stride over by the scenic route, and return by the easy path when we were a bit 'tired'. When visiting friends back in Yorkshire we still do it, though more with a nice lunch in view, usually the day after a big walk  when we realize we are getting too old for 2 big days in a row.
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: Islandplodder on 07:07:05, 17/10/20
The islands on which I plod are singularly lacking in paths, and most people didn't walk anywhere they didn't have to. A few years ago there was a footpath project, I think it was something to do with walking for health, and I was one of the volunteers who walked possible routes. A few were chosen to develop and they put up waymarks and the school made bridges over the worst of the bogs.
To everyone's surprise they are used, within a year there was a detectable path between the waymarks on the routes across the moor, and the footfall on the built paths kept them open.
I think experienced walkers underestimate how daunting it can be to set off on an unfamiliar activity, especially as we all keep telling them how much knowledge, posh gear etc they need to do something which they have basically been doing since they were 2. The demand might surprise us all.
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: cornwallcoastpathdweller on 08:51:52, 17/10/20
There are of course some similar routes linking cities already that have been 'developed' into well used trails, between Bristol and Bath being one, however these have tended to follow decommisioned railway lines and been organised by the authorities in the main. 
All this plan seems to be is to bring this down further to a 'lower' level and make more already exisiting  routes better known.   
A great idea, and down here in Cornwall where conventional walking routes between villages etc just arent known about, so leaving people (if they are mad enough) to walk down the centre of a dangerous windy country lane, a huge improvement and as a walker im all for it.




Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: WhitstableDave on 09:27:14, 17/10/20
Are you suggesting that if more people had actually used the footpath in question, it wouldn't have had a barrier of barbed wire, wooden poles, angle iron and rubble forming an impenetrable barrier at its entrance?
Is that so unlikely a notion?
If more people tend to use a particular path, then there are more people moving stuff to get through, more complaints to local council if blocked, etc.

Very unlikely in this case. An encampment of caravans and vans was set up on 'wasteland' adjacent to the footpath. The entrance to the footpath was barricaded at the same time with barbed wire, etc. nailed in place, and the fingerpost was destroyed. I assume the new residents didn't like the idea of a footpath bordering their settlement.

It might be that Kent County Council is lacking in comparison with other local authorities, I don't know. I've been very active dealing with the Kent PRoW department and I've had a fair degree of success. I've also had complaints ignored and I know that reported complaints can often take years to process. As I've said, councils do not have the funding or staffing to deal with existing issues, so unless we're prepared to do something about that first, schemes such as Slow Maps will have difficulty being established.

So who'll join me in calling for a substantial increase in Council Tax in order to improve the resources available to PRoW departments?

Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: gunwharfman on 09:37:38, 17/10/20
'Anything that helps get people away from the tv, computer games, Facebook or the pub is worthwhile in my opinion.'

I like that sentence, it made me smile, from my daily experience of the lockdown the majority of the people who I've seen only seem to be willing to venture 100yds from these items, or 100 yds from their cars! And then dive into Micks Monster Burgers to revive themselves from the effort made.  :)
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: pauldawes on 09:56:29, 17/10/20
Very unlikely in this case. An encampment of caravans and vans was set up on 'wasteland' adjacent to the footpath. The entrance to the footpath was barricaded at the same time with barbed wire, etc. nailed in place, and the fingerpost was destroyed. I assume the new residents didn't like the idea of a footpath bordering their settlement.

It might be that Kent County Council is lacking in comparison with other local authorities, I don't know. I've been very active dealing with the Kent PRoW department and I've had a fair degree of success. I've also had complaints ignored and I know that reported complaints can often take years to process. As I've said, councils do not have the funding or staffing to deal with existing issues, so unless we're prepared to do something about that first, schemes such as Slow Maps will have difficulty being established.

So who'll join me in calling for a substantial increase in Council Tax in order to improve the resources available to PRoW departments?


Sympathy. Didn’t realise you’d got a specific case in mind...I didn’t read all the thread carefully beforehand.


On rise in council tax? Or tax in general?


I suppose I’m one of many people with “mixed feelings” on that one. I know a great deal of tax spend represents money well spent...education, roads, NHS. But I also know that a lot of it is goes on costly projects I don’t support, “featherbedding”, etc.


I would support increased tax...if mps, local councillors, etc, redoubled their efforts to control spend wisely, prevent fraud, etc.


Obviously irrelevant (my personal bias) anyway...we are all going to end up paying more tax.
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: barewirewalker on 10:32:40, 17/10/20
Anything that increases awareness should be a good thing.
That said I have often found that there is no sensible "slow route" available in the existing ROW network. Should we therefore be looking for that logical route that maybe once existed but didn't find it's way onto the definitive map.
Where's BWW?

 
Not too far away Andies.
My first inkling of this was ITV's late news last night and I got the the impression that it was a Rambler's initiative, my first reaction was to think, "At Last", we break out of the set piece of Short Circular walks led by the local RA leader with a penchant for command and a pocketful of membership forms.
However, I think the news reader did refer to the news item as an slow network rather than a map. My first reaction 'At Last a Brilliant Concept', but 30 years too late, but still a usable concept if it is part of a strategy linking Lostways to 2026, then adding all the additional links and infrastructure that should have been built in since the 1949 Act.
Why 30 years too late, it was in 1990 that Natural England's survey of the Pennine Way earned the local rural economy £8000/mile/year? Yet even to this day the CLA does not recognize footpaths as part of a National Asset.
The idea seems to have come from Dan Raven-Ellison and I applaud him, yet I wonder if he has done enough homework on the network to fully understand how good such an idea could develop into. Seeing his picture makes me realize that he probably has a few more years under his belt than I have.
That is why I find hope in this;
Quote
It is not just a tool to encourage us to walk more, it is a campaigning tool. Once a route is identified, there is something to defend and to improve. It is then more than just a new resource, it is a way of trying to change a debate.
As the most encouraging statement of intent from the website.
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: gunwharfman on 11:01:50, 17/10/20
Whitstable Dave, do you think any one on the 'encampment' was one of my relatives?  :-[
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: Bigfoot_Mike on 11:28:12, 17/10/20
I vote for a massive hike in council tax for Kent  :)
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: jimbob on 11:30:14, 17/10/20
Gunwharfman don't take total offence.The author has often shown his offensive capabilities in many other posts to this site. I am not sure he is even aware of this, though others have accused him of his trolling tendencies.
The whole point of the slow walk site is to use existing Rows to then allow people who want to walk from Liverpool to York the ability to look up an acceptable route on a well known bunch of sites and be given the option of not having to use the road network.  Take the Rome2Rio site and try using it for walking, which it does, and you will not ever be pointed towards Rows, Google directions ditto, for example.
This is quite a simple project, that does need feet on the ground, if you don't want to be part of it, then the simple answer is not to join in.



Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: Islandplodder on 11:32:05, 17/10/20
One thing I particularly like is that it is suggested that routes start and finish at bus or rail stations.  I always get enraged by LDPs which start and finish in the middle of nowhere.  The Wye valley walk, for instance, finishes 12 miles from the nearest possibility of public transport. I do wonder whether that is one reason for the success of the West Highland Way, that both ends are easy to get to.  I think another thread touched on the difficulty of getting to the start of a walk, and if you are not going to start every walk at your front door, it is something which you have to think about. 
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: barewirewalker on 11:57:24, 17/10/20
Not sure if I can join in as it is at the moment, all the routes I know that meet the fundamental criteria involve taking liberties with the righteous way. Reaching bus stops, by avoiding adding to road kill is an art form.

Another factor is the extension of town limits by new development, the benefit of towns being destinations is they are transport hubs. But the hub part is often a rather long way from the link by the local bus service, usually well guarded by a ring road, where the bus drivers try to make up time lost in the traffic jams contained within said ring road.
The idyllic country scenes drummed up by the TV footage can soon be lost with miles of suburban plod dodging pavement cyclists and urban vomit.


Despite small drolleries, I have enjoyed finding the surprising bus stop at the end of a leafy passageway and looked at the drivers face of amazement that tells me that I am the first person in a lifetime of to use that particular stop.  >:D
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: WhitstableDave on 17:59:48, 17/10/20
Whitstable Dave, do you think any one on the 'encampment' was one of my relatives?  :-[
GWM, I've no idea why I might think that.
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: WhitstableDave on 18:05:29, 17/10/20
I vote for a massive hike in council tax for Kent  :)
And why not? I hope the good people of Kent are also happy to pay for improvements to our infrastructure.
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: Dread on 18:39:52, 17/10/20
Nice idea. Signed up. Living in urban West Yorkshire I'm already an expert in this field. I always say that the best aspect of living in Leeds is that whichever direction you head in you hit amazing countryside. The Dales to the North, the Moors to the East, the Peak District to the South and the Pennines to the West.


From my house there's a nice 15 mile walk to Ilkley and Otley, another to Wetherby and onwards to York. There's also a walk along the Aire to Bradford. All great walks with good transport links.
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: Apache on 17:58:46, 17/12/20
https://slowways.uk/


Just attended a Zoom presentation about this. It basically wants to simplify walking between places where people actually live. The routes are ideally between places with facilities and in 10km chunks. It is hoping to launch in the last week of January with people actually walking the routes to see how good/bad the route is.


Have to say that with my retirement less than 2 years away this will be a great way to keep walking affordable and useful.
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: pdstsp on 19:49:31, 17/12/20
I have registered for a webinar in January - looking forward to being involved in this - hope it gets some traction.
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: pdstsp on 15:38:03, 31/12/20
Just had an email saying the launch is delayed to avoid issues with the Tiers.  Webinars are going ahead.
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: Roburite on 14:01:56, 13/01/21
There was a briefing about the "Slow Ways" project yesterday. It was recorded and can be found on Youtube here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yToKR5fubT4&feature=emb_logo). The focus is on routes not paths and they will be hoping for lots of people to try routes and review them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yToKR5fubT4&feature=emb_logo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yToKR5fubT4&feature=emb_logo)
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: pdstsp on 14:34:18, 13/01/21
Thanks for posting that Roburite - I missed the webinar I was booked on yesterday so will catch up via youtube  O0
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: MarkT on 21:19:18, 13/01/21
If people do watch the youtube video, be aware you need to start at 3min 40seconds in. The first few minutes is just a background of "Slow Ways". I guess the person who recorded this, started well before the stream started.


I too missed the live version so be good to see whats what, even though things have been delayed  :(
Title: Re: Slow Maps
Post by: Jac on 10:04:34, 03/04/21
Here's the last email I've had from Slow Ways. Received 2/4/21
(Apologies for posting in full - can't find a way to just provide a link)

Hello,
Firstly, thank you. Thank you for your continued interest in Slow Ways. There’s been a lot going on. There’s been a few delays. Yet we know there are thousands of you waiting and willing to get out, to find out what Slow Ways walking routes look and feel like – on screen and under foot.
As the world around us opens up, we hope you are in good health and spirits and are looking forward to opportunities for new adventures in the coming months.
You’ll no doubt be closely watching what restrictions are lifting where. We have been considering protection levels, what is permitted across devolved administrations as changes are made, and how they apply both to individuals and groups.  
This has allowed us to plan a Slow Ways ‘soft launch’ week between Friday 23rd April and Monday May 3rd. The new website will be available to browse Slow Ways maps and routes, and use a Journey Planner to design longer walking and wheeling adventures. We’ll be using the week to make improvements to the website as it is put through its paces, too.  
There are currently over 7,000 Slow Ways walking routes, a unique network drafted online by volunteers during the Spring 2020 lockdown.  
Checking 100,000km of Slow Ways routes - walking, reviewing and verifying them all - is the next challenge. It’s a big ambition for 2021.  
On April 23rd, once the new Slow Ways website is live, you can help by simply choosing, walking and reviewing a route.  
Slow Ways is a large-scale, long-term, slow-burn initiative. It’s not a race, but let’s see how many routes can be walked and reviewed during that week?  
During April we’ll host a series of webinars including an Introduction to Slow Ways, How to use the website, How to survey Slow Ways and Slow Ways for Groups. These will be viewable on YouTube (with a small number joining them on Zoom), sign up details are below. [/size]Slow Ways Webinars in AprilSlow Ways for Groups Webinar (https://slowways.us19.list-manage.com/track/click?u=56b04ed5cbdb76b3ecb2c92c1&id=384916a719&e=3a580f68ed) - Tuesday April 13th at 7pm[/size]Slow Ways background
  • A website walk-through
  • How groups can get involved
  • [/color]  Introduction to Slow Ways  (https://slowways.us19.list-manage.com/track/click?u=56b04ed5cbdb76b3ecb2c92c1&id=343e645463&e=3a580f68ed)- Tuesday April 27th at 7pm[/font][/size]Slow Ways background
  • A website walk-through
  • How you can get involved
  • [/color]  How to use the Slow Ways website (https://slowways.us19.list-manage.com/track/click?u=56b04ed5cbdb76b3ecb2c92c1&id=efeada3e50&e=3a580f68ed) - Wednesday April 28th at 7pm[/font][/size]A website walk-through
  • How you can get involved
  • [/color]  How to survey Slow Ways walking routes (https://slowways.us19.list-manage.com/track/click?u=56b04ed5cbdb76b3ecb2c92c1&id=d2b5fabc93&e=3a580f68ed) - Thursday April 29th at 7pm[/font][/size]How to record and submit a Slow Ways survey
  • [/color]    
    Finally, do connect with us on Twitter (https://slowways.us19.list-manage.com/track/click?u=56b04ed5cbdb76b3ecb2c92c1&id=b560efb679&e=3a580f68ed) and Instagram (https://slowways.us19.list-manage.com/track/click?u=56b04ed5cbdb76b3ecb2c92c1&id=15a8cec227&e=3a580f68ed) so we can keep you updated with Slow Ways news, maps, photos and stories. If you have friends, family or colleagues who enjoy walking we’d love for them to sign-up (https://slowways.us19.list-manage.com/track/click?u=56b04ed5cbdb76b3ecb2c92c1&id=806ba71f12&e=3a580f68ed) too. Please do invite them!  
    We’re really excited by the potential of Slow Ways to inspire and support more people to walk more often, further and for more purposes. We can’t wait to get going on that work you.  
  • Title: Re: Slow Maps
    Post by: sussamb on 15:45:25, 03/04/21
    Yep, had it too. Signed in for a couple of the seminars  O0
    Title: Re: Slow Maps
    Post by: pdstsp on 16:43:18, 23/04/21
    Now live;


    https://beta.slowways.org/


    Funnily enough one of the routes links the two towns I was trying to link in my thread "I fought the law...".  I haven't looked too closely but I note that the suggested route involves a fair bit of road walking, which makes me feel a little more justified.